Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

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Themightytom
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Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-26 11:50am

I'm kicking around an idea for a fanfic where the Enterprise is given the mission to track down Chakotay because the Voyager was damaged by the Gem' Hadar (It's a long story)

I toyed with the idea originally of having JUST the stardrive section snagged by the caretaker, because Picard responsibly left it, under the command of Worf with Counselor Troi and Doctor Crusher, at Deep Space 9 with all the families on board.

What would that even look like, what resources does the Star Drive section have, as compared to an intrepid and in addition to having Picard to command

Scenario 1 Riker is a casulty of the transition, Geordie too, for the hell of it, to give Bellana and Chakotay a role.

Scenario 2 kill any other two main characters that made the trip

Scenario 3, Swap anyone I left with the saucer section in, for whatever reason.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-06-26 12:04pm

Are we going to assume they can't get escape getting stranded? Or we going to have the usual discussion about that?
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-26 12:14pm

Ah yeah, they cannot escape, good point. Also Picard can't pull out his Q card.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-06-26 01:01pm

Why would they leave the Chief Medical Officer behind when the mission is dangerous enough that they make the rare step of only taking the Star Drive section ?

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-06-26 01:22pm

For that matter, why not do what Captain Keogh did for Odyssey and just evac the civilians at DS9 but keep the saucer section?
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-26 01:47pm

bilateralrope wrote:
2019-06-26 01:01pm
Why would they leave the Chief Medical Officer behind when the mission is dangerous enough that they make the rare step of only taking the Star Drive section ?
Why take the chief medical officer away from the thousand civillians for half a dozen maquis who may or may not even be injured, the Badlands are just physically dangerous.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-06-26 01:22pm
For that matter, why not do what Captain Keogh did for Odyssey and just evac the civilians at DS9 but keep the saucer section?
Just assume they are making the ship easier to maneuver and don't see a reason to dump everyone off at DS9 when they know they can just separate. It doesn't ACTUALLY make sense that they hardly ever did it, after introducing the feature. It worked fine at Farpoint, Memos and against the Borg, if they know they are going into a stormy lightening patch of doom, it makes sense. They get the shields and the platform, but they don't have to bring the luggage.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-06-26 02:01pm

bilateralrope wrote:
2019-06-26 01:01pm
Why would they leave the Chief Medical Officer behind when the mission is dangerous enough that they make the rare step of only taking the Star Drive section ?
Regardless, the E-D has at least one other physician (Dr Selar) and a nurse (Ogwa) and numerous other medics. (Like Simon Tarses from Drumhead), they're not going to be hurting in that department. What they do about living space for long term is interesting since most of it is likely to be the lost saucer section.

The E-D Stardrive, is a much more powerful combat unit than the Intrepid but also slower at warp, at least at normal cruising speeds (though admittedly I think this is mostly from secondary sources) and Voyager was already a cut above the DQ locals. There's not much to threaten to E-D out there short of the Voth and Borg.

Now Picard is as principled and more consistent than Janeway so they'not going to much knicking off local tech and of course a borg alliance is right out.

They shouldn't do worse than canon though.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-26 06:27pm

The first stop would really be identifying what the Star drive section contains and the overall makeup of the interior of the Galaxy Class.

The Intrepid class is 344m
Crew complement of: 141
Decks: 15


The Galaxy class in full is 640m
Complement of: 1,000... Memory Alpha is shooting off 6,000 based on Yesterday's Enterprise and a maximum capacity of 15,000. The number of people on the E-D did change through episodes going from 1,000 to 1,500 as I recall.
Decks: 42

The 'Battle Bridge' which is supposedly at the top of the Star Drive section is listed as Deck 8. Memory Alpha has a list of the facilities with deck numbers but if you go with those numbers then a lot of them are actually in the Star Drive Section because they are below Deck 8.
On the one hand - That could actually mean the Galaxy Class has concentrated the majority of the Saucer Section to Crew Quarters in which case, the Star Drive Section can walk away with a fairly decent chunk of the facilities that should put it on par with the Intrepid for scale and functionality.

However, the counter point is that the Galaxy Class has to support many more crew than Voyager in about the same space. If the majority of the crew quarters are on the Saucer then things could get really cramped for those left in the Star-Drive. In fairness, the Galaxy Class is supposed to have empty space for future development so if that applies to the Star Drive section then you could remodel to fix things.

The major issue comes with Voyager being the more advanced ship which could give it a bit of an edge over the E-D however, depending on what the E-D is actually carrying. It could come out as still being equal or slightly better than Voyager for the longer perspective.
I would expect the E-D has the potential for having the better sustainability and versatility than Voyager. Voyager might be able to top out the warp speed faster but the E-D is likely to be carrying the equipment, supplies and facilities to sustain the trip back home even if it has lost the Saucer Section.

I would expect Picard and his crew to perform better than Voyager by a significant margin. The E-D is supposed to have the best of Starfleet AND is designed to take long exploration trips with a crew that should really be expecting to be on the fringes.
Granted, being stuck 70 years from home is going to cause issues but... it should be manageable for Picard and Co.

Getting home - I can see Picard taking longer to get home or getting home really quickly depending on how events unfold.
The quickest route to get home - Q. I would fully expect Q to come find Picard either intentionally or because Picard runs into the suicidal Q. In both cases, Picard has the potential to actually follow through on getting Q to send them home.

The longer route - Picard will avoid Borg Space. Unlike Janeway, I do not see him deciding to bullrush through Borg space rather than go around or wait until S8472 wipe the floor with the Borg. Picard might actually swing the OTHER way and make an alliance with S8472 to obliterate the Borg.
This can either end in the magic space Kes 'throwing' the E-D home or Picard pulling the diplomacy speech to get his hands on the technology / opportunity for the shortcuts.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by SpottedKitty » 2019-06-27 05:51pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-06-26 06:27pm
The 'Battle Bridge' which is supposedly at the top of the Star Drive section is listed as Deck 8. Memory Alpha has a list of the facilities with deck numbers but if you go with those numbers then a lot of them are actually in the Star Drive Section because they are below Deck 8.
On the one hand - That could actually mean the Galaxy Class has concentrated the majority of the Saucer Section to Crew Quarters in which case, the Star Drive Section can walk away with a fairly decent chunk of the facilities that should put it on par with the Intrepid for scale and functionality.
Don't forget the saucer has a deep cutout where the top of the stardrive section fits in; deck 8 is actually above the widest point of the saucer (the ten-fore lounge on the forward rim is, as it says on the tin, on deck 10). There's a lot more decks in the lower half of the saucer. Sheet 6 in this blueprints collection shows more details.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-06-27 06:24pm

SpottedKitty wrote:
2019-06-27 05:51pm
PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-06-26 06:27pm
The 'Battle Bridge' which is supposedly at the top of the Star Drive section is listed as Deck 8. Memory Alpha has a list of the facilities with deck numbers but if you go with those numbers then a lot of them are actually in the Star Drive Section because they are below Deck 8.
On the one hand - That could actually mean the Galaxy Class has concentrated the majority of the Saucer Section to Crew Quarters in which case, the Star Drive Section can walk away with a fairly decent chunk of the facilities that should put it on par with the Intrepid for scale and functionality.
Don't forget the saucer has a deep cutout where the top of the stardrive section fits in; deck 8 is actually above the widest point of the saucer (the ten-fore lounge on the forward rim is, as it says on the tin, on deck 10). There's a lot more decks in the lower half of the saucer. Sheet 6 in this blueprints collection shows more details.
I can see there being somewhat less space in the stardrive section though. Remember the neck's pretty skinny, and then you have a fairly flat engineering section that's got a lot of machinery, tanks et al inside. We can probably assume that the struts connecting the nacelles to the engineering section are unoccupied, but as major structural members, they're probably pretty full of solid girders.

However yeah the stardrive probably has enough space to store all 1000ish crew. Might get a bit tight with 1500, but Galaxy classes are BIG.

Image

Yeah, that'll fit 1500 and then some.

Compared to it, an Intrepid is not much longer than the warp nacelle on a Galaxy!

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-27 09:16pm

SpottedKitty wrote:
2019-06-27 05:51pm
PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-06-26 06:27pm
The 'Battle Bridge' which is supposedly at the top of the Star Drive section is listed as Deck 8. Memory Alpha has a list of the facilities with deck numbers but if you go with those numbers then a lot of them are actually in the Star Drive Section because they are below Deck 8.
On the one hand - That could actually mean the Galaxy Class has concentrated the majority of the Saucer Section to Crew Quarters in which case, the Star Drive Section can walk away with a fairly decent chunk of the facilities that should put it on par with the Intrepid for scale and functionality.
Don't forget the saucer has a deep cutout where the top of the stardrive section fits in; deck 8 is actually above the widest point of the saucer (the ten-fore lounge on the forward rim is, as it says on the tin, on deck 10). There's a lot more decks in the lower half of the saucer. Sheet 6 in this blueprints collection shows more details.
The E-D has 42 decks. Memory Alpha

A key point would be trying to figure out where the separation occurs so that you can figure out what deck contents each gets in the separation.

Galaxy Class Deck Plan

Star Drive Section Contents:

Starfleet ships have the Bridge at the top as deck 1. If you follow that principle through then the Battle Bridge being on Deck 8 would be the top of the Star Drive Section.
I would expect the separation point to be from Deck 8 to Deck 17.
Anything below Deck 17 is exclusively the Star Drive Section.

The points between you can reason out how likely it is anything on those decks are in the Saucer Section or if they are within the Star Drive Separation plane.

Going from the Deck Plan, the Star Drive section is going to be coming way extremely poorly on overall facilities. Holodecks, Gyms, Phaser Ranges and Labs area all in the deck range that put them in the Saucer Section. This would make a certain kind of sense from the perspective of what the Star Drive section is meant to be used for.

The Star Drive does contain some housing but I highly suspect this is going to be of the cramped sort which will not take on a significant amount of personnel.
It is possible the Deck Plan is wrong and ultimately the TNG does not mention things on the E-D in full. Thus, the Star Drive Section may come out with a bit more. At the least, a sickbay would make sense and potentially a Holodeck.

I suspect a lot of the labs would be dedicated to Engineering workshops rather than the elaborate science labs so Voyager could have an edge on the science ability front.

That said, from a social / comfortable living stand point the Star Drive Section is pretty shit in a split but they do seem to have a lot of the storage capacity with cargo bays. Thus, depending on how stocked up the E-D was, being trapped in the DQ could see them having a decent kick off start than Voyager did for resources - Assuming they actually mattered in a series that applied continuity on that aspect.

Firepower / function wise. The Star Drive section has the warp drive. Shuttle Bays and torpedo launchers. For the most part it should be at least comparable in firepower to Voyager and within a reasonable ball park of the same agility.

The biggest problem the crew are going to face is keeping themselves sane if they have lost a gigantic amount of the amenities that keep them entertained for a deep space voyage. Even if a large amount are evacuated to the Saucer prior to separation, the unknown variable is how much crew are left behind compared to what the Star Drive Section is expected to sustain.

The Cargo Bays might get packed with crew as make-shit living spaces but that could ultimately be unsustainable on the support systems of the Star Drive Section.

I think a health expectation would be for the Star Drive Section to come away with a crew complement at least 2 - 3 times larger than Voyager. That would put in in the 300 - 500 crew range in a frame that is at least as long as Voyager but with a large amount of that frame being used for large crucial systems.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-27 11:20pm

Another advantage the star drive section would have is that it would be using more "traditional" circuitry instead of Voyager's bioneural gel packs. That would probably be a lot easier to repair and maintain, and the E-D would not be susceptible to things like macro-viruses and Neelix's cheese.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by SpottedKitty » 2019-06-28 12:59pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-06-27 09:16pm
Firepower / function wise. The Star Drive section has the warp drive. Shuttle Bays and torpedo launchers. For the most part it should be at least comparable in firepower to Voyager and within a reasonable ball park of the same agility.
Not so much of the shuttle capacity — bays 2 and 3 either side of the Impulse Drive are tiny, about the same size as the hangar on a TOS Connie-class. The main shuttlebay complex on deck 4 (also taking a big chunk out of the back of deck 3) is huge. I've seen plans, and we did get a brief look in from the outside in one episode, and it takes up about half of the deck area with shuttle hangars, maintenance, lots of different shuttle types, refuelling/resupply/repair machinery, etc. If they leave the saucer behind, then they're going to be left with a tiny fraction of their shuttle capacity. There might not even be resources to build something equivalent to the Delta Flyer.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-28 04:36pm

Would the Star Drive section weather the journey any better than Voyager when. The Caretaker first brought them? I remember it being like 50% casualties? What is a reasonable compliment for the Star Drive any way, I'd imagine if a Galaxy has just over 1,000 people and leaves families and civillians behind, they'd also be leaving crew behind to run things, so I was thinking maybe 400 or so at most running the star drive with similiar casulaties.

The Main shuttle bay is probably a huge load, but in the other hand, cargo bays could probably be converted into amenities as they are emptied?

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-06-28 08:31pm

TNG never showed the main shuttle bay. At best, you get a single outside model shot.

The only shuttle bays actually seen and used in the show are the ones on the Star Drive Section. I would expect the overall capacity to be at least equal to Voyager. Voyager was losing shuttles on a constant basis and it is beyond reason for ALL of those shuttles to have been part of the main compliment.
If Voyager was building them - Then the E-D should be in a better spot to actually do that with multiple shuttle bays, a large amount of cargo bays for supplies and resources to fuel them.

Data hijacked the ship with minimal effort on his own and other attempts to hijack have involved teams that are barely in the double digits. I would expect that with enough automation the E-D could be reasonably controlled by the main cast of TNG. That said, it might be a bitch to maintain and lots of space may go unused.

This brings up the question of how much crew is actually expected to stay behind and / or take with them on a mission scenario.

50% casualties seems extremely unlikely for Voyager if you mean straight deaths. For a crew compliment of 140 that would be in the 70 range.
The Maquis Raider was a bit of a clown car but no fucking way is it carrying that many people to suddenly bolster Voyager back to capacity.
Memory Alpha claims it has a crew of 20.

Voyager crew compliment

By the count depicted, Voyager somehow ended up with more crew than it started with. At some points the ship has more crew than it's stated capacity... so who knows how that worked out.

43 Dead vs 52 New over the course of the show.
For a crew of an Intrepid class that is pretty substantial.

I would expect at an absolute minimum, the Drive section of the E-D is going to be having a crew complement equal to Voyager.
If you want to get into interesting specifics, the command crew all have their quarters on the saucer section.
One would expect the living quarters of the Drive Section to be dedicated to the engineering staff so they live close to where they work. Thus, in a separation scenario, a good amount of the engineering staff will still have their rooms... minus families perhaps.

It would end up being the people that had their rooms on the Saucer that get rendered homeless.

Overall, I can see the Drive Section doing massively better than Voyager from a crew and resources. Firepower wise, it could be equal or greater than Voyager. Certainly, the E-D should have more Torpedoes than Voyager.

The stand and fight with the Kazon could go a completely different way.
Picard is not a fucking moron like Janeway and might actually be diplomatic enough to avoid fighting them. In which case, E-D has time to study the Caretaker and get home.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-28 08:41pm

Themightytom wrote:
2019-06-26 11:50am
I'm kicking around an idea for a fanfic where the Enterprise is given the mission to track down Chakotay because the Voyager was damaged by the Gem' Hadar (It's a long story)

I toyed with the idea originally of having JUST the stardrive section snagged by the caretaker, because Picard responsibly left it, under the command of Worf with Counselor Troi and Doctor Crusher, at Deep Space 9 with all the families on board.

What would that even look like, what resources does the Star Drive section have, as compared to an intrepid and in addition to having Picard to command
The Enterprise in Voyager's place is always an interesting scenario, as long as its not just an easy pretext for cheap Voyager-bashing.

Picard will bring greater command experience, and probably greater experience as a diplomat and tactician, but less of a broad scientific knowledge than Janeway (but he'll have Data to make up for that for him, and Geordi as well depending on the scenario). He'll probably also be somewhat more aloof and distant from his crew (outside his core bridge officers), and the likely larger crew will increase that. While morale seems generally good under Picard's command, I'm not sure his more aloof style will be better than Janeway's when they're cut off from the Federation so completely. There was a sense of community at times on Voyager that I'm not sure Picard's Enterprise will have.

Since much of the Voyager cast will be the same (Chakotay, Torres, Tuvok, and potentially Neelix, Kes, Paris, the Doctor and Seven will all be present), the biggest difference character-wise is going to be Picard's command style and experience vs Janeway's. I don't know that either is necessarily better (when both characters are written at their best, that is, which they often aren't), but it is very different. Picard probably won't rely on technobabble as much, but will perhaps do better (although be more conservative in his approach) when it comes to diplomacy.

One thing about the Enterprise being bigger is that they actually have the crew and resources to eventually set up their own colony if they can't get home, at least more than Voyager does. Though I don't know if Picard would ever be open to that. He'll also have more support craft, though Voyager managed to replace its regularly.

On the flip side, the star drive can't land on planets, so they are at a disadvantage compared to Voyager there. Voyager is also a faster ship, and generally more advanced, but as Tribble noted, its bio-circuitry seems a bit unreliable. Probably a new technology they haven't worked the bugs (no pun intended) out of yet.
Scenario 1 Riker is a casulty of the transition, Geordie too, for the hell of it, to give Bellana and Chakotay a role.

Scenario 2 kill any other two main characters that made the trip

Scenario 3, Swap anyone I left with the saucer section in, for whatever reason.
Well, Riker and Geordie are probably the two most boring TNG main characters to me, so I'm willing to trade them for Chakotay and Torres. Then again, perhaps no one would die. Canonically, Voyager lost its XO, Chief Engineer, and Chief Medical Officer and Nurse, as well as its on-duty Helmsman. But the Enterprise is sturdier, so might take less damage.

A few character questions I'm wondering about:

1. How likely is it that Picard would be willing to work with the Marquis, especially since he may not be so short on personnel?

2. Is Paris still along as an adviser (or do we swap him for Locarno, who has history with Picard and who was originally supposed to fill Paris's role)?

3. If they meet Seven in this altered timeline, how does Picard deal with her/the Borg?

4. How likely is it that he offers Kes/Neelix a place on board, and how much faster does Picard get fed up with Neelix's bullshit? :D

5. Does the Enterprise in this scenario have an EMH on-board?
Ah yeah, they cannot escape, good point. Also Picard can't pull out his Q card.
I actually think that for all the abuse Janeway gets for destroying the Array, rather than using it, Picard would have made the same call in the same circumstances, albeit possibly for subtly different and likely better-articulated reasons (Prime Directive concerns, the fact that their presence inadvertently lead to the Array being disabled, plus the risks of using it and the imminent arrival of more Kazon).
Why take the chief medical officer away from the thousand civillians for half a dozen maquis who may or may not even be injured, the Badlands are just physically dangerous.
If they had the time to evac the saucer, that would make sense, yes.

They'd definitely bring Dr. Crusher along on this mission.
Just assume they are making the ship easier to maneuver and don't see a reason to dump everyone off at DS9 when they know they can just separate. It doesn't ACTUALLY make sense that they hardly ever did it, after introducing the feature. It worked fine at Farpoint, Memos and against the Borg, if they know they are going into a stormy lightening patch of doom, it makes sense. They get the shields and the platform, but they don't have to bring the luggage.
That's a really good rational if you want it to be just the star drive, actually. Ability to manuever around the weird storm in space effects of the Badlands is vital, and the E-D is a way bigger and probably less agile ship than Voyager.
Would the Star Drive section weather the journey any better than Voyager when. The Caretaker first brought them? I remember it being like 50% casualties?
I don't think it was that high. The only confirmed casualties I recall were the XO and Helmswoman, the Chief Engineer, and the Doctor and Nurse. Possibly the transporter chief, since Voyager never seemed to have a dedicated one? Probably a few others, but definitely not half.

As to whether the E-D would do better... maybe. Its a larger ship, so you'd think it would be tougher, but the early Galaxy classes are kind of notorious for their fragility and proclivity for warp core breaches. If the core doesn't outright breach (in which case they're either all dead, or stranded in the Occampa system if they managed to eject it on time), then they probably do better.
What is a reasonable compliment for the Star Drive any way, I'd imagine if a Galaxy has just over 1,000 people and leaves families and civillians behind, they'd also be leaving crew behind to run things, so I was thinking maybe 400 or so at most running the star drive with similiar casulaties.

The Main shuttle bay is probably a huge load, but in the other hand, cargo bays could probably be converted into amenities as they are emptied?
Yeah, they'll have lots of space in the cargo bays.

Edit: One more point- the plot of "Scorpion" likely plays out very differently, as I very much doubt post-BoBW/pre-First Contact Picard would try a run through the heart of Borg space, much less consider negotiating with the Borg to do it. If anything, he'd probably give Species 8472 kudos and try to ally with them (which really isn't more implausible or risky than allying with the Borg). Sadly, that means Seven probably dies in this timeline, along with the Borg kids and every assimilated victim of the Collective.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-28 08:56pm

I'm also wondering how this will effect events in the Federation. Losing Picard and the flagship will have a much bigger impact on the Federation than losing Voyager (and more efforts might be made to find/rescue them). Picard played a fairly small role in the Dominion War, to all appearances, but the events of Insurrection will likely play out very differently. The bad guys' scheme in that movie may go off without a hitch, with Picard and Data on the far side of the galaxy. But that's the least of the concerns.

In Generations, you had the Duras sisters trying to get their hands on Sun-destroying missiles, IIRC. What happens if Picard isn't there to stop them? We could potentially see a radical government with a grudge against the Federation seizing control of the Klingon Empire right before the Dominion War kicks off, which will probably fuck the Alpha Quadrant.

Even worse, though, is First Contact. With no Picard present, there seems every possibility that the Borg will win, either taking Earth in the present, or losing the cube and going back to conquer Earth in the past, preventing First Contact (perhaps the Defiant, likely under the command of Sisko or Kira instead of Worf, rams the cube in this scenario, and that loss would likely spell doom in the Dominion War, and for Bajor). In which case the E-D gets retconned from the timeline without ever knowing what happened, unless Q intervenes or something.

If the Federation still wins the Battle of Sector 001, then Picard may return to a Dominion-occupied Federation. If things do somehow play out more or less as in canon, minus the Enterprise's presence, then Nemesis may not change much, unless Picard takes longer than Janeway to get home. The Romulan Empire still probably ends up fucked shortly after when Hobar's star goes nova, as well, leading to the Abrams-verse.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-29 09:51pm

Going by Stardates......

Voyager starts on... 48315.6 (2371)
Generations happens around 48632.4 (2371)

So, the Enterprise disappearing should (99% chance) effect the events of Generations. The question is how. (I figure there is a small chance of another nearby Federation starship and crew taking the Enterprise's place. How that pans out, no idea).

If you'll recall, when the Enterprise found Soron's research lab, everyone had been killed by Romulans. Solon was the only survivor, and needed medical help. If he dies before the Duras arrives, they might not find Solon's hidden facilities. Therefore, they won't find the data on the weapon or the decryption.

However, if they DO find it, then the odds are, the Duras will conquer the Klingon Empire. Hell, from there, eventually, we might have the Dominion and Klingons/Romulans fighting it out using Supernova Weapons.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-30 05:34am

Solauren wrote:
2019-06-29 09:51pm
Going by Stardates......

Voyager starts on... 48315.6 (2371)
Generations happens around 48632.4 (2371)

So, the Enterprise disappearing should (99% chance) effect the events of Generations. The question is how. (I figure there is a small chance of another nearby Federation starship and crew taking the Enterprise's place. How that pans out, no idea).

If you'll recall, when the Enterprise found Soron's research lab, everyone had been killed by Romulans. Solon was the only survivor, and needed medical help. If he dies before the Duras arrives, they might not find Solon's hidden facilities. Therefore, they won't find the data on the weapon or the decryption.

However, if they DO find it, then the odds are, the Duras will conquer the Klingon Empire. Hell, from there, eventually, we might have the Dominion and Klingons/Romulans fighting it out using Supernova Weapons.
There are so many little moments that could send this timeline in so many different directions.

Would be interesting if it leads to a timeline where Kirk makes it out alive. :D

Or, given the setting, it might all turn out more or less the same because Q/the future Temporal police are running around behind the scenes like crazy, patching the timeline back together. :wink:
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Jub » 2019-06-30 07:40am

Even accounting for the relative ages of the two ships, judging by their size alone the Enterprise should have around 8x the raw reactor power available to it compared to Voyager. That's just scale coming into the equation and the Galaxy is roughly twice the length of the Intrepid and more than twice the height assuming width holds up about the same that's 8x the mass. That means 8x the volume to put a reactor into which ought to mean a significant increase in power output.

This means less battle damage, more storage space (even accounting for the loss of the saucer the Galaxy-class's engineering hull is larger than an entire Intrepid), plus they have the cooler-headed captain, better science officer, and won't have a half-crazed EMH as their only medical staff. They also have the more experienced crew who were likely hand-picked to be aboard the fleet's flagship whereas Voyager was pretty green and had a lot of crew members with issues aboard.

The only real threat to the Enterprise here is having enough living space for their crew, but if they were sensible and didn't try to pack the entire crew into the engineering hull before getting chuck across the galaxy they ought to be fine on that front. Beyond that, they may miss out on Seven of Nine and some of the more exotic tech that Voyager was upgraded with, but with the Big E's raw starting power that may not be such an issue. They'll almost certainly get back, just slower and with less drama.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-30 10:25am

Since the idea of the Saucer was to get Non-Essential personal out of the way before a battle, that would mean it was the best of the crew in the Stardrive.

Now, the other big situation with this: Star Trek: First Contact. Without Picard present, that Cube might do alot of damage to Earth, and that's before pulling the 'Time Travel Assimiliation' stunt. Of course, if Picard had stayed behind, he'd be in command of NCC-1701-E, so that would be preserved.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Themightytom » 2019-06-30 10:53am

I think Generations would have been a much shorter movie. Either no one finds Soron and he dies, or a federation crew just fights off the Klingons and doesn't let him continue his research. They don't have an Android having a meltdown to get their engineer kidnapped and webcamming the shield frequencies and even if it got that far, Picard was trying to negotiate because Soron was in his head. They could have just taken the bird of prey and installation.

First contact might not have happened, the Borg only went time when the cube was being destroyed, and going back in time is what encouraged them to assimilate Earth in the first place because the survivors sent a signal in Enterprise.

The Bakku would have been relocated, Data was the reason the Enterprise was even there.

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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-01 10:40pm

Jub wrote:
2019-06-30 07:40am
Even accounting for the relative ages of the two ships, judging by their size alone the Enterprise should have around 8x the raw reactor power available to it compared to Voyager. That's just scale coming into the equation and the Galaxy is roughly twice the length of the Intrepid and more than twice the height assuming width holds up about the same that's 8x the mass. That means 8x the volume to put a reactor into which ought to mean a significant increase in power output.

This means less battle damage, more storage space (even accounting for the loss of the saucer the Galaxy-class's engineering hull is larger than an entire Intrepid), plus they have the cooler-headed captain, better science officer, and won't have a half-crazed EMH as their only medical staff. They also have the more experienced crew who were likely hand-picked to be aboard the fleet's flagship whereas Voyager was pretty green and had a lot of crew members with issues aboard.

The only real threat to the Enterprise here is having enough living space for their crew, but if they were sensible and didn't try to pack the entire crew into the engineering hull before getting chuck across the galaxy they ought to be fine on that front. Beyond that, they may miss out on Seven of Nine and some of the more exotic tech that Voyager was upgraded with, but with the Big E's raw starting power that may not be such an issue. They'll almost certainly get back, just slower and with less drama.
Exactly, though IMO the E-D Stardrive would travel at a comparable speed to Voyager, if not faster.

Consider this from "Q-Who":

PICARD: Status?
DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years, and are located near the system J two five.
RIKER: Travel time to the nearest starbase?
DATA: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five.

Now, in this episode we don't know exactly where the E-D was when it was sent by Q to J-25, however it in "BOBW" it was clarified by Admiral Hanson that J-25 was indeed over 7,000ly away from Fed-Space:

SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
PICARD: If this is the Borg, it would indicate they have a source of power far superior to our own.

In "Q-Who" Picard was confident enough that he decided to explore the entire sector around J-25 before heading back, so we can infer that the E-D was capable of making the trip. Therefore we know that the E-D's average cruising speed for the length of that trip would have been ~2,700c.

In comparison, Voyager was stated to be 70,000ly away from Fed Space and it would take ~75 years to make that trip, which would mean that Voyager's average cruising speed for the length of its journey would have been ~933c.

Now granted Voyager was stranded in much more difficult position to begin with, but even if we cut the E-D's cruising speed to merely ~1/3-1/2 for a 70,000ly DQ journey due to additional needs in refueling, maintenance, travelling unknown space etc the E-D would still be travelling ~900c-1350c.

Voyager may be the faster sprinter but the E-D would be at least comparable in overall cruising speed if not greater, which would make sense given it's larger supplies, fuel reserves and likely easier to repair systems (like not needing bio-wank to function).
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-02 10:07pm

Themightytom wrote:
2019-06-30 10:53am
I think Generations would have been a much shorter movie. Either no one finds Soron and he dies, or a federation crew just fights off the Klingons and doesn't let him continue his research. They don't have an Android having a meltdown to get their engineer kidnapped and webcamming the shield frequencies and even if it got that far, Picard was trying to negotiate because Soron was in his head. They could have just taken the bird of prey and installation.
Possibly. There are too many variables to say for sure how it would play out, of course. But yes, without Geordie's capture, any up-to-date Federation cruiser ought to be able to handle that dinky Bird of Prey without much trouble. IIRC it was some techno-gimmickry involving Geordie's visor that let them shoot through the Enterprise's shields.

Personally, though, I'm hoping for the timeline where Kirk lives. :D
First contact might not have happened, the Borg only went time when the cube was being destroyed, and going back in time is what encouraged them to assimilate Earth in the first place because the survivors sent a signal in Enterprise.
That to me suggests that First Contact pretty much has to play out the way it did for anything like a recognizeable timeline to occur. Because no time-traveling Borg means no Borg invasion of the Federation (which also means no Defiant class developed, no reproachment with the Romulans, no widowed Sisko, and a whole bunch more).

If this were Doctor Who, I'd say that First Contact and the events around it would probably be considered a fixed point in time, due to its significance.
The Bakku would have been relocated, Data was the reason the Enterprise was even there.
Pretty much, yeah.

Does that mean the Feds get practical immortality in this timeline? That's such a huge game-changer we could have a whole thread just discussing the implications of that.
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Re: Sub half a Galaxy class for voyager

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-07-03 09:03am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-02 10:07pm
Themightytom wrote:
2019-06-30 10:53am
I think Generations would have been a much shorter movie. Either no one finds Soron and he dies, or a federation crew just fights off the Klingons and doesn't let him continue his research. They don't have an Android having a meltdown to get their engineer kidnapped and webcamming the shield frequencies and even if it got that far, Picard was trying to negotiate because Soron was in his head. They could have just taken the bird of prey and installation.
Possibly. There are too many variables to say for sure how it would play out, of course. But yes, without Geordie's capture, any up-to-date Federation cruiser ought to be able to handle that dinky Bird of Prey without much trouble. IIRC it was some techno-gimmickry involving Geordie's visor that let them shoot through the Enterprise's shields.
They essentially installed a small camera in Georgi's visor that allowed the Duras sisters to see the shield rotation frequency of the Enterprise allowing them to tune their weapons to hit when the shield was down to allow things like light or the Enterprise's own weapons to pass thru should be noted that normally these windows would be so short that it would be near impossible to exploit them.

Honestly even without shields a GCS should be more then a match to a standard klingon BoP (now if it was one the cruiser variants it would be different but the standard 100m one should be as big of a problem as it was in Generations) sure the BoP might still kill the Galaxy but it should be at best a mutual kill not a clear victory to the BoP.
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