replace Voyager with enterprise

[Lord Revan]

and again we're assuming that BoP from Kirk's era and BoP from Picard's era are identical under the hood so to speak.

the BoP base design works for it's intended role as a light raider/frigate and comparing a Bird of Prey to Negh'var isn't really fair as they have totally different roles. With Negh'var being the front line command ship and generally being the heavy hitter of the fleet (similar to the Vor'cha and D7/K'tinga lines), while bird of prey ships were more patrol ships, raiders or use to harass the enemy in large scale battles.

so for all we know Klingons just liked the design and saw no real reason to change it. Simply updating the internals while keeping the external apparence the same.

[Patroklos]

and again we're assuming that BoP from Kirk's era and BoP from Picard's era are identical under the hood so to speak.

Shall we say the same thing about the Miranda's?

the BoP base design works for it's intended role as a light raider/frigate and comparing a Bird of Prey to Negh'var isn't really fair as they have totally different roles. With Negh'var being the front line command ship and generally being the heavy hitter of the fleet (similar to the Vor'cha and D7/K'tinga lines), while bird of prey ships were more patrol ships, raiders or use to harass the enemy in large scale battles.

That wasn't my point. The point was that the Klingons are indeed designing and building new ships. Presumably better ships or they would not have bothered with the new designs. Unless you can come up with a reason the hull form of the Negh'var's predecessors was not upgradable the same arguments you make for upgrading the BOPs into eternity should apply there too. They do not, so there must be some reason to prompt the Federation and Klingons to adopt new and presumably more optimal hull forms.

I suppose you could say the BOP is unique in that its particular niche didn't require any hull improvements but that doesn't seem to hold across the ST universe. The Federation does have new Miranda sized classes with essentially the same mission profile.

However I do want to bring up the fact that in the real world we have warships with extended service lives that have not lost any combat effectiveness either due to the nature of their mission or their ability to be upgraded. The USS Enterprise (as in CVN) remained relevant as both a basic hull form and in mission because the nature of its work did not change and with the upgrading of its airwing, sensors, and defensive armament it was just as effective as new build hulls right out of the yard (we can quibble about sortie rate generation and whatnot but in general it was the same). What killed the Enterprise was not its operational effectiveness in the field but rather the effort required to keep it there. Just because you can upgrade something doesn't mean you can do it efficiently. In the case of the USS Enterprise its hull was simply old and worn out and required increasingly costly repair and maintenance actions. Its spaces could be made to accommodate new technology but was not originally or optimally configured to host it and while it could be made to happen it often required expensive modifications and labor intensive work arounds (which is why its crew compliment was higher). While its engineering plant was as capable as the follow on Nimitz-class and didn't need upgrading in that regard, its archaic design relative to its successor and its inability to be upgraded led to it being a man power and dollar sump that eventually became too much to justify further operation. I am not sure how easy it is to swap out warp cores but ST ships may have this same problem. The USS Nimitz, btw, will probably be around until at least 55 years of service, maybe more.

Now in the ST universe where we see them manipulate materials at the atomic level routinely hull fatigue is probably not an issue. But even if you can magically maintain the hull at 100% nothing will change the fact that the new quantum torpedo launchers require a power conduit to penetrate three structural integrity bulkheads because photon torpedos only had two such conduits vice the quantum torpedo launchers five and the ship was designed to accommodate the former with no thought to the latter. Depending on the circumstances a compromise where you make it work and the ship is still a 100% relevant and effective combatant in the modern age even if it cost a crap ton to might warrant it. Say, you have plenty of money but no more space docks to allow new construction for instance.

Anyway, I am just thinking out load. In the end though I still say the reliance on older hulls should put the Klingons at a disadvantage in some way. Its just too extreme.

so for all we know Klingons just liked the design and saw no real reason to change it. Simply updating the internals while keeping the external apparence the same.

They could. Or the art guys were not funded properly

[Captain Seafort]

Yeah I know what you're saying but at some point, technology outstrips her ability to be effective. Sure, the BoP is using weapons still effective against modern vessels, but had Riker paid any attention he could have turned on that BoP and blown it to hell and back.

Of course, but that's got nothing to do with technology and everything to do with the fact that the E-D was a hundred times the size of the BoP. It's the equivalent of a 1st rate getting the shit kicked out of it by a small frigate.

You are ignoring some very real differences in hull design and rigging in the intervening time period, not to mention cannon design and production improvements. But yeah outside the hull itself the Sovereign of the Seas could have been upgraded to be relevant at Trafalgar if it could have kept up with its subpar hull form. Which is relevant to the Miranda BOP discussion, could they be upgraded to be relevant?

Of course they won't be as effective as a modern ship, but even without an upgrade they'll still be relevant. Yes, the Sov is slower, has a shorter weapons range, longer reloads, less punch per shot and greater chance of an explosive failure. Her guns will still hurt when they hit and a fifty gun broadside is nothing to sneeze at at any time before shells come into widespread use.

I'm not suggesting that the Sov at Trafalgar, or a Miranda or BoP in DS9 is still capable of performing the exact same role as when they were new, simply that they're still useful additions to a fleet, and their decline isn't as remotely as severe as their age might indicate if you just look at the last couple of centuries of technological development.

[Themightytom]

Yeah I know what you're saying but at some point, technology outstrips her ability to be effective. Sure, the BoP is using weapons still effective against modern vessels, but had Riker paid any attention he could have turned on that BoP and blown it to hell and back.

Well if I recall.. and please... don't make me rewatch Generations to verify... the BoP managed to stay behind the Enterprise, and I didn't see any phasers used. Maybe it was a total antique shitbox that was maneuverable enough to stay in the much larger and more cumbersome ship's blind spot. I don't know how that would play out in any of the Voyager scenarios, as they would have les familiarity with the Enerprise' weaknesses, but what if a recurring villian like the Hirogen managed to figure it out?

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yeah I know what you're saying but at some point, technology outstrips her ability to be effective. Sure, the BoP is using weapons still effective against modern vessels, but had Riker paid any attention he could have turned on that BoP and blown it to hell and back.

Well if I recall.. and please... don't make me rewatch Generations to verify... the BoP managed to stay behind the Enterprise, and I didn't see any phasers used. Maybe it was a total antique shitbox that was maneuverable enough to stay in the much larger and more cumbersome ship's blind spot. I don't know how that would play out in any of the Voyager scenarios, as they would have les familiarity with the Enerprise' weaknesses, but what if a recurring villian like the Hirogen managed to figure it out?

The Enterprise-D should have had at least one torpedo launcher (rear one) able to fire on them - as well as (by my count) at least 6 phaser strips which can fire to the rear.

[Borgholio]

The Enterprise-D should have had at least one torpedo launcher (rear one) able to fire on them - as well as (by my count) at least 6 phaser strips which can fire to the rear.

E-D does have an aft launcher. They use it once they did their techno-babble solution to bring down the BoP shields. You're right about the phasers, but they actually have potentially 9 or even 10 strips that can shoot aft. So again there's no excuse for not unloading everything they have once they know their shields have been compromised.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The E-D was facing the BoP initially, and did fire one (just one FFS) phaser burst, then she did an about face and tried to run (without the impressive acceleration normally seen by the E-D I might add). So the BoP was in the E-D's aft not out of clever maneuvering by the Klingons but due to stupidity/incompetence from the Enterprise crew.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The E-D was facing the BoP initially, and did fire one (just one FFS) phaser burst, then she did an about face and tried to run (without the impressive acceleration normally seen by the E-D I might add). So the BoP was in the E-D's aft not out of clever maneuvering by the Klingons but due to stupidity/incompetence from the Enterprise crew.

"Deanna, take the helm! Get us out of orbit!"

So she turns it 180 degrees and continues in orbit of the planet, just the other direction heh.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah which should, if I recall my orbital mechanics correctly, push them towards the planet. Quite why they didn't just go full speed ahead past the BoP is beyond me.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yeah which should, if I recall my orbital mechanics correctly, push them towards the planet.

Well they did later crash into it - with the saucer facing the planet at the time.

[Baffalo]

Yeah which should, if I recall my orbital mechanics correctly, push them towards the planet. Quite why they didn't just go full speed ahead past the BoP is beyond me.

Most ships, to gain the best advantage of gravity and lift, often enter into prograde orbits, meaning orbits that travel in the same direction of the planet. That's why most rocket launches turn east and are often near the equator, to take advantage of the Earth's angular momentum when launching. Even in Star Trek, they keep this notion because while the ship could do almost any maneuver it wants, it's more efficient to keep this prograde orbit because shuttle launches can reach the ship quickly and they can maintain geostationary orbit or just a quick orbit around the planet.

By turning the ship into a retrograde orbit, Dianna essentially fucked the Enterprise over in two ways. One, she made it more difficult to exit orbit because now the Enterprise is fighting the planet's gravity even harder, thus robbing them of acceleration, and when the saucer separated, they had even less velocity when hitting the ground, meaning the saucer couldn't glide as well through the atmosphere and when it hit, it was travelling AGAINST the planet's natural movement, meaning she actually caused more damage to the saucer in doing so.

If you look at the screen as the saucer separates, the planet fills the screen. With almost no forward velocity, the saucer is essentially being pushed towards the planet by the stardrive exploding and the pull of the planet's gravity. She effectively turned the saucer into a brick. Dropping from orbit, they were probably able to get some velocity back, at least enough to level out for a landing, but they were still essentially fucked.

It reminds me of the story of the Gimli Glider, an Air Canada 767-233 that ran out of fuel at 41,000 feet and had to land with no power on an air strip in Gimli, Manitoba. The aircraft coasted in and managed a landing only because of the skilled pilot at the helm. Then... we have Dianna Troi. There's a reason we had a running joke once with some friends of mine that when anyone got into a car wreck, they got the "Dianna Troi Citation for Navigational Excellence".

[Enigma]

Well, Deanna is the ship's counselor, not the navigator. I presume she knows the very basics on piloting but I seriously doubt she has a lot of experience so it is expected that she'd mess up. Especially in a very stressful situation.

[Baffalo]

Well, Deanna is the ship's counselor, not the navigator. I presume she knows the very basics on piloting but I seriously doubt she has a lot of experience so it is expected that she'd mess up. Especially in a very stressful situation.

Honestly, my biggest question is, why didn't Riker say something? They turned away from the BoP, and thus were no longer the Enterprise's optimal firing arc. Worf, at the very least, should have recognized the situation and didn't. There was a breakdown in communications and no one was thinking. This led to the pointless loss of a starship, and like in my other thread, someone's ass should have been put behind a desk or dishonorably discharged from Starfleet.

[Prometheus Unbound]

'Get us out of orbit '

Well, she followed orders.

[Eternal_Freedom]

For that matter, why did Troi take the helm? Any other time in the series that the helmsman (or Data at Ops) leaves their post an extra appears to take over. Surely at Red Alert (or at least a very tense situation) you'd have had additional flight-trained officers standing by. Or Data could have handled it (as he apparently handled the latter parts of the descent). Or hell, Riker could have taken the helm like he did in Insurrection. But he orders Troi to do it.

Frankly, I'm not sure you could actually charge Troi with anything there, as it's Riker who gives her the order over any other available officers, and Data who doesn't object. She gets put in a situation she's not trained for and, surprise, screws up. I don't think we can blame her for it.

[Elheru Aran]

Riker is the CO; Troi gets a hit for bad piloting (as she's still supposed to pilot to the best of her capabilities) but Riker was the one in charge of the ship overall in Picard's absence. Whatever happens to the ship, he's responsible for it.

Of course, a more parsimonous explanation is that the writers simply wanted a named character driving the ship and couldn't come up with a good reason why Riker should just take the helm himself...

[Baffalo]

Riker is the CO; Troi gets a hit for bad piloting (as she's still supposed to pilot to the best of her capabilities) but Riker was the one in charge of the ship overall in Picard's absence. Whatever happens to the ship, he's responsible for it.

Of course, a more parsimonous explanation is that the writers simply wanted a named character driving the ship and couldn't come up with a good reason why Riker should just take the helm himself...

Let's run through the main cast and their qualifications to pilot the vessel and why they would be unable to do so at the particular moment they needed Troi to man the helm. This instantly removes Picard, Wesley (yes I am including him), Geordi, and Beverly. This leaves us with Worf, Riker, Data, and Troi.

Riker is in command, and therefor either needs to remain in his chair to at least give orders. I can buy that I guess.

Worf is manning the weapons console, and while he has been shown to sit in the Ops chair, I don't think I've seen him ever take the helm. Therefor, he's not qualified, at least as far as we're aware.

Data is having an emotional problem but seems to be holding it under control for the time being. He is also able to pilot the ship and probably man the Ops console from the same location with no effort, if he so desired. He is known to be capable of handling the situation.

Troi... we saw what happened.

Now, it is possible that Riker was second-guessing Data given his emotional instability. I mean, they're in combat, and he's already shown himself to be compromised once when put in danger. He might have been side-lined by Riker, mentally at least, and felt that between Troi being qualified (at least minimally) to pilot the helm and putting her next to Data in case he starts to lose it, I guess I can see why they kept Data where he was.

But... that's the ONLY possible reason I can see. But why couldn't they just have Data take the helm, and Troi next to him calling out status reports and helping Data as needed?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Riker not being able to command and pilot is kinda wrecked by Insurrection. I know they were feeling al young and aggressive, but still.

[Darth Nostril]

I chalk it up to the technobabble interference of the ionosphere extending far beyond the atmosphere and scrambling everyone's brains, it's the only thing that makes any sense.

[Joun_Lord]

I'd love to see that defense used in the Enterprise's actual court martial proceedings........

The right honorable funny wig guy: Commander Riker, you placed your ships therapist at the helm of Starfleet's flagship after being beaten by a tiny ship that should have barely been able to even scratch the paint even with the shields down. What defense to these accusations to you have Commander?

Riker: Uhhm it was the planets ionosphere screwing with our brains. In space. On a starship. Uh yeah, thats also why we couldn't shoot at Soren's launch site and notice the Boobas Sisters low jacking our Chief Engineer. Also the atmosphere is the reason Starfleet got a bill from the Enterprise for Ferengi hookers and tribble sex toys. That wasn't me, it was the ionosphere.

And on that day Riker pioneered the Riker defense, if the planet has an ionosphere you must acquit.

[Themightytom]

Troi should have been training for at least a year at the helm, from the date she took the bridge officer's exam right? Is it possible that it wasn't her fault they crashed? The ship had just taken a lot of damage after all, thrusters could have been damaged, the computer may have been overloaded doing other things... I mean it's silly to have a therapist at the helm yeah, but they made it a point of plot development that she was training for it, plus she jumped in there during Nemesis and no one was like "Get the hell away from that! You lost your wings!"

There are usually back up officers standing in the back by the science labs but if one is not available, I don't think it's really appropriate to leave the helm unattended while someone rides the elevator back to the bridge. Riker could have taken over, his orders weren't anything particularly special, I almost feel like if Troi wasn't really qualified he would have taken over instead...
...leaving HER in charge?

Data has taken over helm from his station before, but if there was a ton of damage and an evacuation, and a separation, and a million other operations happening he was probably busy, overseeing... operations...

As tough as this logic probably is to follow, I find it easier to believe Troi wasn't at fault and the ship was just not working right.

[Captain Seafort]

Troi should have been training for at least a year at the helm, from the date she took the bridge officer's exam right?

Why? That was a command qualification course, not a driving lesson.

she jumped in there during Nemesis and no one was like "Get the hell away from that! You lost your wings!"

Picard was trying to hit something then, and Troi's bad driving therefore become useful.

Data has taken over helm from his station before, but if there was a ton of damage and an evacuation, and a separation, and a million other operations happening he was probably busy, overseeing... operations...

Data took over helm control later in the descent, in time to stop the ship nose diving into the planet.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's not the crashing intot he planet bit that I'm saying is her fault, it's her increidbly dumb way of following Riker's order to "get them out of orbit," namely, turn around and go full tilt, when she could have just burned straight past the BoP and not exposed the E-D's weakest aspect tot he BoP's only weapons.

Hell, the E-D probably could have just rammed the damn BoP, the shields were still up just ineffective against the weapons.

[Simon_Jester]

Ramming the Klingon ship without a direct order would probably also be considered improper procedure for a Starfleet helm officer. I don't know about you but I would not want my helm officer deciding to crash the ship into anything without permission. Even if we could get away with it.

Breaking 'past' the Bird of Prey might actually have been a better plan- but even so, they'd have had to expose their stern to the Bird of Prey's weapons after passing it. And it would have involved exposing the Enterprise to at least one salvo from the Klingon ship's shield-piercing weapons at extremely close range, where they might manage to do even more damage than they would otherwise.

Troi should have been training for at least a year at the helm, from the date she took the bridge officer's exam right?

Why? That was a command qualification course, not a driving lesson.

Command qualification usually entails knowledge of basic shiphandling. If it didn't, you'd have a lot more captains accidentally crashing their ships by ordering them to sail into rocks or other ships or dangerous storms.

[Themightytom]

Simon covered my response. also I just discovered that somebody out there actually took the time to do this
Star trek voyager intro featuring the Enterprise-…: http://youtu.be/IWg68e9k1tQ