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 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-09 06:21pm 

That's because TNG is basically a vehicle for continuing the sci-fi/morality angle of the Original Series. It's not like Kirk or Spock changed much throughout the 3 year run of TOS. DS9 is a product of a different time, when arc-based shows that allowed for the kind of character development we see in Sisko were becoming more commonplace.

This is why TNG vs. DS9 comparisons are so difficult. I have to admit that, in retrospect, DS9 is probably more thrilling to watch than TNG, and it definitely has better character development and action. (Plus it has Garak.) And of course, people heap lots of praise on episodes like "In the Pale Moonlight" because it depicts the grim reality and realpolitik resulting from the Dominion War, as well as other episodes which depict the "dark, cynical side" of the Federation with Section 31 and so on.

But honestly, there's something to be said for TNG's humanistic optimism. I really have to roll my eyes when people complain about TNG's "communist propaganda" or preachiness or whatever, as if these people are so proud that they're not falling for the "brainwashing techniques" of a fictional utopia. Really, for me TNG was always a vehicle for promoting faith in humanity and technological progress, a message which is sorely lacking on television these days. Ever since TNG went off the air, most of the popular sci-fi shows which followed were more focused on exploring politics and religion than how technology affected mankind; and when they did explore technology's effect on mankind it was usually depicted as a huge negative (often with apocalyptic consequences, as in nBSG).

Yeah, DS9 or perhaps nBSG are more fun to actually watch than a lot of the lackluster TNG episodes, but I really miss TNG's message, and I'm sad that few other television programs have picked up that message. Call me naive, but in a world filled with religious fanaticism, anti-intellectual nonsense, and a decaying space program, it would be nice to see a popular television show which promotes faith in human progress and technological achievement.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-09 07:07pm 

TOS and TNG were more episodic plot-heavy formats, but near the end of TNG there were more character-driven stories (somewhat derisively referred to as 'x episodes' where x is the name of a character, so like 'Oh great another Troi episode'). The weird thing is usually these didn't result in much character development, per se, because that would entail arc writing. And TNG writers were loathe to do that sort of thing. That's why there is a status quo that gets maintained by the end of the episode. EDIT- the only real exception would actually be the Worf episodes where his character did develop from what he was like in the early seasons to later on.

DS9 was better for this in the sense that their characters grew and changed over the seven seasons. Of course you can take this too far and neglect the plotting, and I think a lot of my problems with DS9 stem from this. I like all the characters and even love some of the stand-out ones too (Garak is brilliant, one of the best characters in Star Trek and Dukat was awesome too, at least before he became a crazy evil wizard; Weyoun is also hilarious and sinister at times). The problem I think is some of the plotting seemed lax at times, like how that whole war between the klingons and Federation just happened, then when it came time to go 'welp i guess the dominion needs to be the big threat now' it was wrapped up in a couple minutes. The Dominion War was often really good then really bad, but this topic's been done before. On the whole I think DS9 did a decent job depicting a peace-loving bunch of guys like the Federation fight for its very survival. A lot of people don't like DS9 for this exact reason, that Star Trek has always been about hope and optimism and peaceful exploration of space. And I would agree, but I think the idea of a utopia like the Federation meeting a bunch of aggressive assholes who are more technologically advanced than they are and decide to try and invade them, is a really good idea. It's not that DS9 presented a more glum or 'realistic' impression of the Federation - they're still the good guys, they still believe in the prime directive and so on, it's just that the writers really did want to push the idea that even a perfect society like the Federation still faces challenges, and maybe it's still got a ways to go before it really would be 'perfect', I think that's a good thing.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-09 07:41pm 

I recall reading interviews with Behr about how he wanted to do certain things- like have the occupation of Deep Space Nine last the whole of Season 6- that Paramount vetoed. He also wanted to have both of Nog's legs blown off in 'The Siege of AR-558'. He had to fight tooth and nail to have one leg taken off instead. DS9 was a great show, but could have been better if not for meddling executives.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-09 08:23pm 

Exactly.

It annoys me when people say that DS9 dishonored Star Trek and abandoned the utopian ideals laid down by Roddenberry. I disagree and feel that DS9 never outright condemned the concept of a utopian future. It reaffirmed it, showing that there was nothing wrong with peace, love, and mutual cooperation. Rather, I always loved how it asked the hard questions that none of the other shows addressed. How does a society like the Federation function internally and in relation to its galactic neighbors?

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-09 11:08pm 

Roddenberry approved the concept of the show before his death. I can't believe it wasn't at least thrown around during DS9's early development that the show wouldn't be about exploration, and would portray the inner workings of Federation society.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-10 06:49am 

Why can't you believe that, especially when the early years of the show are so very different from the middle/later years?


Which hard questions are those, and what insights do you think DS9 provided about the Federation that we had not seen previously?

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-10 08:27am 

What was so different?

I don't think there are hard questions asked or answered about the Federation in DS9. For the most part over it's run, the Federation is status quo.
What DS9 does and does humorously, and I think fairly well, is contrast the Federation against the other societies in the galaxy. It's almost like they break the Federation and other cultures down into Pros and Cons.

They show that people inherently don't trust the Federation despite what they say about being peaceful explorers and rightly so, as it is shown that when push comes to shove, Starfleet is gonna rip you a new one as soon as they build some new tech.

The insights about the Federation in DS9 came through the eyes of Quark, Garek, Weyon, Martok, Odo and even the Changeling Female.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-10 08:32am 

DS9 is replete with human optimism. It is just given to you in the characters and not the plot of the show.

Bashir and O'Brien in particular are paragons of the loyalty and do the right thing at all costs mentality that the Federation seems to expound. Ironically there are times when these two take it so far, that one or the other has to forcibly stop the other. The episode where Bashir wants to cure the Jemhedar of White addiction comes to mind.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-10 12:30pm 

Nothing major. I was referring more to the Dominion War and Section 31's exploration of compromise and security. But episodes like "Past Tense" showed the hell Earth had to go through to get to utopia, for example.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-10 12:35pm 

That's a fair point. The Starfleet characters in DS9 do continue the TNG tradition of faith in humanity, technology, etc. I think the contrast I'm talking about is more apparent if you examine the overall plots and themes of the show. DS9 is often thought of as a deeper show because it explores alien cultures in-depth, which basically means that DS9 is mostly about two things: politics and religion. It's about politics because it explores the shifting alliances and power struggles within Cardassia, as well as the galaxy as a whole once the Klingons and Dominion come into the picture. And it's about religion because it explores the Bajoran's faith in their gods and how this affects their political future, as well as the Vorta's (more twisted) faith in the Founders.

I think we'd all agree on that. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's what makes DS9 a great show. But what DS9 is not really about is the effect technology has on humanity, which to me distances it somewhat from the humanistic element of TNG and "science fiction" in general. As an obvious contrast, consider the difference between a typical DS9 episode about the Bajoran Prophets, and the TNG episode Who Watches the Watchers. While DS9 explores the dark side of religious fanaticism through the character of Kai Winn, at the end of the day, DS9 treats the Bajoran religion with reverence. Ultimately, the main character (Sisko) comes to respect and even have faith in the Bajoran religion, and eventually becomes a literal Messianic figure. In contrast, consider Picard's speech in Who Watches the Watchers, where he basically encourages a primitive society to cast aside all superstition and focus on technological development and peaceful coexistence. I'm not saying we should have an episode where Sisko announces to everyone that the Bajorans are retards (especially since their gods actually happen to be real), I'm just contrasting the focus of the stories and themes in DS9 and TNG.

Essentially, all I'm saying is that after TNG, very few popular science fiction shows had the same overt emphasis on humanism and technological progress. Most popular science-fiction shows which came after, including DS9, B5 and nBSG, have been about exploring politics and religion. Some have even had an anti-technology message, (although DS9 certainly is not anti-technology). And this saddens me somewhat, because despite the preachiness, TNG's message really is very important in today's world.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-12 04:03am 

In terms of broad subject material, early DS9 was much more focused on Bajor and the Bajoran struggle for stability and independence in the wake of the occupation. The wormhole was a big deal, but more for its potential than what it was actually doing; DS9 had not yet become a major trading hub. The problems faced were still of relatively small scale: the Maquis, the attempted Bajoran coup (yes, it's a coup, but it's only one planet and it still got mopped up in a three-parter), the court intrigue around the election for the new Kai, and a host of one-shot episodes that could have fit nearly as well on TNG. Character development was also not nearly as powerful or influential on near-following episodes as it is in later seasons - part of that is the introductory nature of the first season, getting the characters acquainted with each other, but I also see it as the writers still being used to writing for TNG. A first season episode, to me, does feel very different from a seventh season episode.


That said, I'm willing to concede it entirely if you want to press the matter, since that's not the only reason I would disagree that Roddenberry ~had to have known~ that DS9 was going to try to take a more extensive look at the "inner workings of Federation society." Michael Piller was one of the co-creators of the show and would certainly have been part of the pitch to Roddenberry, but Piller left after the second season. After he left, Ira Steven Behr became Executive Producer (alongside Berman). To my mind there are three major possible reasons why Roddenberry wouldn't have known about the path the show took:

- The writers, on actually making the series, found that the show naturally flowed in a certain direction that had not been previously anticipated, and went with the flow.
- When Behr took Piller's place as Executive Producer, he did so with the intent of taking the show in a different direction than Piller had envisioned (and pitched to Roddenberry).
- When DS9 was pitched to Roddenberry, the writers either omitted or lied about their plans to explore the inner workings of the Federation, believing that he would not approve of a more introspective show.

"Woah wait Bill I see another name under the Executive Producer credit, guy named Rick Berman. Wouldn't he have had anything to say about it?"

Probably, but from what I've heard, he was generally much more involved with/consumed by Voyager, which he considered a more important show (and the guys running UPN probably thought so too; DS9 would probably have still been under contract to the various stations it had been originally syndicated to). Remember that he allegedly wanted the Dominion War wrapped up in just a few episodes, but clearly this wasn't actually executed by the writers; if they could get around someone who still had his faculties about him, how hard do you think it would have been to lie or omit their way around a guy who was getting pretty senile in his final years?

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-12 08:31am 

I always appreciate your insights into Star Trek and it's inner workings production wise, Uraniun.

I agree with all that.
The difference to me between TNG and DS9 as far as what I meant about it not feeling awkward in the first season was that the characters felt "right" in season one of DS9 and those stand alones that would have felt correct in TNG added to the character development of DS9 whereas they wouldn't have done so in TNG.

Like to me, there are a few key things that really show the difference between the shows...

IIRC in TNG one episode they just show everyone playing poker together and being pals. There is no build up to that it just happens. Whereas in DS9 you have an adversarial and even an honest dislike between Bashir and O'Brien (on O'Brien's part mostly) in season 1 that you watch change through those early one-shots to them being the best of and inseparable friends defending the Alamo or fighting the Battle of Britain in the last few seasons.

In TNG it takes the threat of the extinction of the human race to get Picard, after however many seasons, to go sit in on that game of poker and interact with his crew. Whereas you have Sisko, who is markedly the only absent crew member from the Vic Fontain hollowsweet and then we find out why and it is a very genuine reason that gives insight into his character but also the way another citizen of Earth views the progress of her planet and that of the black "race" of humans and where the Federation and Earth stand in regards to racism. However, it doesn't take a literal a literal Act of Q to get Sisko into the hollowsweet, like it did to get Picard to go play poker, it just takes a well reasoned argument from someone he trusts.

Then you have the way the characters "act". In TNG you can just skip a whole season or two to get to when the characters begin to "act" correctly. You don't miss any growth or reasons for it, it is just the writers altering how they are writing them. You just pick up and go. In DS9, if you try that, you actually miss why the characters have changed and why they are now "acting" the way they are or how they are supposed to be, if you get my drift.


I wasn't really arguing with you on this point. I think it was someone else.
I would go with option 1 that you presented though. Maybe mixed in with some option 2.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-15 04:26pm 

Deep Space Nine was enjoyable in the early seasons, but then it entered an extended period of stagnation, which was only occasionally interrupted by the space combat episodes, e.g. the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order team-up and the Klingon assault on DS9. But even those failed to galvanize much interest afterwards. (Incidentally, the Klingon assault on DS9 is one of my favorite space combat scenes in the entire Trek franchise.)

My principal grievances, off the top of my head:
- No real exploration of the Gamma quadrant. In the early seasons we would occasionally see a decent race pop up, such as those Hunter aliens, but that was pretty much the extent of it. Nothing really shook the established status quo, it was just more of the same. After seven seasons, what did we really learn about the Gamma Quadrant? Were the Founders really that interesting to take up all that screen time? Their servant races were utterly disposable, bereft of even the slightest cultural allure. And what was the Dominion anyway? Other than a giant military-industrial complex for the mass-production of purple glowing bug-ships. I kept waiting for something decent to show up out of the Gamma quadrant, but it never did happen.
- The Ferengi. As mentioned by others in this thread, they were mistreated. A comic foil, in the derogatory sense. Quite a shame, because their culture could have been fascinating. Their contribution to the Dominion war was also non-existent. Rather disappointing, as their cultural institutions would have allowed for their war effort to be rather colorful.
- The Romulans. Outsmarted by the Founders, tricked by a tailor and derided by Sisko for having weak ships. At least they didn't blow up their homeworld ...
- The Cardassians. Dictator Gul Dukat? Out of the billions of Cardassians in the Union, and Gul Dukat had to rise to the top. Small universe, I suppose.
- The Federation. Section 31? I liked the concept, but that isn't the Federation. And for an Alpha quadrant power that prides itself on scientific sophistication, they weren't really that innovative during the Dominion war. The best they could come up were self-replicating mines of the cloaking variety, and Rom was the brilliant mind behind that idea. Apparently the TNG crew was on an extended leave of absence, as they would have solved the scientific conundrums that the Dominion threw at the Federation in a single space opera episode. What were they again? Different colored phasers?
- Galaxy Class: One time was enough, I didn't have to see it explode every other episode in the later seasons. It's an iconic Trek vessel, it shouldn't have been treated as disposable cannon fodder.
- Space combat: shields, phasers and torpedoes. More of the same. The least they could have come up with some variation on that tiresome trope. How about some point defense? Or different types of torpedoes (in function, not yield). Or new shields. The show had the special effects budget, but the writers simply didn't know what to do with it.

Looking back I really wish those Hunter aliens had hunted the Founders into extinction. At least they added something new to the Trek franchise: body armor impervious to phaser fire, powerful energy crossbows, weird teleportation graphics, advanced scanning equipment, etc. Their ship was pretty powerful as well, if I recall correctly. They were fun, and were a breath of fresh air in contrast to the Dominion.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-15 05:11pm 

Hav, I'm sorry if I came across as snapping at you. I crossed the line from attempting to preemptively address points, to being aggressive about Star Trek of all topics. I should have taken a milder tone.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-16 09:22pm 

Naw, you didn't at all. I just thought you got who was saying and asking what mixed up.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-16 09:54pm 

Kinda hard to go exploring when Galaxy Class ships are getting obliterated by the Jehedar. Even still, some of the best episode about the Gamma Quadrant came after they basically cut off major exploration. Notably for me were two Bashir episodes. Where he wanted to cure the Jemhedar of their addiction to the white and when he tries to cure the one planet of the Blight. That said, how many "We serve the Founders in all things" episodes could they do? It would be like doing episodes about different Federation planets and cultures. Hey... they are all peaceful and boring.

Ridiculous. The Ferengi got one of the most in depth treatments of all the races in DS9. We saw everything from their leader, cultural revolution, Ferengi law, Ferengi mercenaries, the dirtier side of the quest for profit (Gaella), Ferengi love, family and social structure.
They also had no interest in the war as it would have cut off the trade they had already established with Dominion members. The Dominion had no interest in conquering them either as they posed no threat and were fully capable of operating under Dominion rule.

I can get behind this. The Romulans should have been more present from the minute they brought in the Defiant and the cloaking device. They should have had a permanent presence on the station and in the series.

Yeah, and he was the one to strike the deal with the Dominion. What's so hard to stomach about this? He was shown from day one to only care about power and would do almost anything to claim it.

In one sentence you say the Ferengi weren't involved enough, then you are complaining that a Ferengi and not the Federation came up with one of the most important defensive technologies of the war?
The rest of this pretty much causes you to lose all credibility in your "analysis" of the show.

Oh get out of here with this fucking shit. Aside from the fact that we only see maybe 3 Galaxy's bite it the whole Dominion run, having them get totaled gave the Dominion some teeth, but I suppose you think Picard and the crew would have flown straight to the Founder home world, signed a treaty, ended the war, saved the galaxy and brought the Dominion into the Federation and commissioned a Changeling as a Commander in a two part episode.

Oh for fucks sake... did you even watch the show?
Quantum torpedoes, ablative armor, Breen energy weapon etc., etc.. The show had a constant back and fourth with variations of the "tiresome trope" on both sides. I suppose La Forge ans Data would have come up with awesome new SUPERWEAPONS to save the day right?

I don't even... whatever dude. Don't get too much splooge on your TNG DVDs.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-16 10:32pm 

I actually think DS9 did more to redeem the image of the Galaxy-class than anything else. Sure the Odyssey blew up but it was important to do that to establish the threat the Dominion and the Jem'hadar represented. The writers also said that had it been the Enterprise-D there, she would have died just as quickly too.

But the thing is, we later see Galaxy class ships come in and whoop ass during the Dominion War. One of my favourite images was in the opening battle in Sacrifice of Angels where you see those two GCSes ruin a Galor's shit. There was also that GCS in the season six finale which was getting chewed up by the weapons platforms but was still flying and shooting (contrast that with an Excelsior and Miranda which were getting one-shotted).

Also I liked how in DS9 the villains were the ones who were technologically superior. The Dominion came across as a more technologically advanced mirror version of the Federation. Although I didn't like how the Breen came in with their magic weapon which completely disabled ships (seems too convenient to be honest - edit especially considering how rapidly the problem was solved), I liked how the shields didn't work against Dominion polaron beams, cloaks weren't effective (at least initially, obviously they solved this problem - which is another cool thing tbh, war demands technological progress), nothing could reliably detect a changeling, stun settings didn't work against Jem'hadar (don't know if that is official it may have been fanon shit I read somewhere) and also you couldn't detect them on a tricorder if they were shrouded etc.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-16 11:40pm 

I liked the Dominion for the same reason, they were a twisted version of the Federation with a little bit more in the way of technology. While it's also an anachronism, they remind me of the Covenant from Halo. I like the idea of the "forced alliance" of multiple species as a villain.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 01:24am 

Plus the fucking Vorta. I mean Combs was brilliant as Weyon and Iggy Fucking POP!
Even the Jemhedar got the chance to show their stuff, and in episode types where traditionally, the bad guys would leave with a begrudging respect for the Starfleet officers. Not this time, they still wanted to kill the shit out of Starfleet.
Actually the only time that happens is when Worf just won't give up on the prison asteroid. And even then, the Jemhedar doesn't get to spread the word of how he respects him, he gets fucking vaporized.

The Dominion was a good villain, both cardboard badguy and interesting adversary at the same time.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 01:38am 

They just have more character than the Borg do. On top of that they're not a walking one note stereotype like the Klingons. I'm really starting to feel like they were the best "evil empire" villain in Star Trek.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 02:25am 

I think part of it is the "one note species" that Star Trek does have a tendency to fall into.
Even the Dominion is guilty of this. Each species is fairly one note, they just did a very good job of utilizing them together to make a great enemy and had the wherewithal to combine the three into a very cohesive narrative.
Its ironic... the Borg has millions of species in it and are the most boring, same all the way around group in ST.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 04:59pm 

The Changeling thing was something I had a real beef with the folks on Memory Alpha (eg., if shapeshifting could be inhibited, detection would be that much of a difficulty), but they were an interesting antagonist compared to the Drakh in the B5 sequels.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 11:07pm 

That was part of the original idea of the Dominion I think a Anti-federation twin to the Federation, like the mirror universe terrran empire was also a dark federation counterpart, I wish this angle was shown a bit more, because was rather nice thematic idea.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-17 11:12pm 

IIRC, the intention was to have the Hunters from Season 1 show up on a Dominion ship during Season 3, though it never happened.

I always liked how different the Dominion hierarchy was different from what we had seen before. Instead of 1 monolithic race, you had 3 in a pyramidal structure. And it was well thought out too, since neither the Jem'Hadar or the Vorta could rebel -- "To the Death" notwithstanding.

If the Vorta went rogue, then the Jem'Hadar -- whose first loyalty is to the Founders -- would destroy them. If the Jem'Hadar went rogue, then the Vorta would cut off the White, run for the hills, and wait for them to kill each other.

 Post subject: Re: Rewatching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Posted: 2012-02-18 05:54am 

I also heard that the Klingon War was forced on them, which is why the Changeling infiltration angle was dropped. If not for that, then the show would've focused more on internal Federation politics as the Changelines destabilized the Federation, ultimately causing Vulcan to secede. Anyone know if there's any truth to that? Either way it sounds great. While I did enjoy what we got, I do think the Klingon war was a bit of a sideline, even though it was still part of the Dominion plot to destabilize the Alpha Quadrant (And it did provide one of the best season ending scenes ever, with Odo saying that Gowron was a Changeling).