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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)

A question about Star Trek: Enterprise

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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:41pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Metahive wrote:
Ryag Han wrote:
no, i haven't thought of that, because they aren't that omnipotent. sure, they might get the resources (even so they can't just create it, that is against the conservation of energy) put it all together and solve every single engineering problem, but the i ask the question why the fuck would they, super god-like beings, have any need for that? remember that guy who killed an entire race spread over light years while light years away? really? two thousand like him? what, they need a place to congregate? lolol

Conservation of mass and energy doesn't mean much to them considering they can shrink a starship down to christmas ornament size and vice versa with a snap of the fingers. As for motivations, just to show the incredulous shmucks out there just how awesome they are? They aren't portrayed as the most modest species within Trek after all.

Also, the Dyson Sphere doesn't represent an "astronomical inaccuracy", more some sort of inexplicable feat of engineering. If you want a true astronomical mishap try the quasar that inexplicably shows up within the Milky Way galaxy in episode The Galileo Seven. Quasars, in case you don't know, are galaxy sized stellar phenomena themselves. At least the remastered episodes made it look a bit more like a real quasar instead of some indefinable lump of gas.


well, at least you bring up something other than speculations.
sure they seam brake conservation of mass and energy, but that dose not mean they just break it, they most likely bypass it or, as far as we know, there's more to it than we know, and its neither. anyways, i didn't see hundreds of spaceships full of people that are all like "oh my god, a DYSON SPHERE!" there's no one around. you might think that if they wanted to show off, they'd make it in a place and time when more people can actually see it, and NOT crash into it or be sucked into it for no apparent reason.

and it is an astronomical inaccuracy. the shear amount of resources, how the sun stays in the middle, not to mention that its somehow illuminated from the outside.

Image
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:43pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
Also, can you change your fucking sig. Its really massive and irritating.


i am just going to ignore you now. fucking racist.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:43pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
Also, can you change your fucking sig. Its really massive and irritating.


i am just going to ignore you now
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HMS Sophia
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:45pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-08-22 07:47am
Posts: 1229
Location: Watching the levee break
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
Also, can you change your fucking sig. Its really massive and irritating.


i am just going to ignore you now. fucking racist.


Oh, fuck you sideways.
I didn't ask you to change it because I'm racist. I asked you to change it because its nearly a fucking page long. :banghead:
Okay, how about this. Can you shrink it any, have some of the lines on one line rather than breaking it all up?
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:47pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
barnest2 wrote:
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
Also, can you change your fucking sig. Its really massive and irritating.


i am just going to ignore you now. fucking racist.


Oh, fuck you sideways.
I didn't ask you to change it because I'm racist. I asked you to change it because its nearly a fucking page long. :banghead:
Okay, how about this. Can you shrink it any, have some of the lines on one line rather than breaking it all up?


no and no. if you have a problem with it, fuck you sideways, asshole.
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Batman
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:50pm 

Emperor's Hand


Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Posts: 13772
Location: Looking for another drawer
Ryag Han wrote:
and it is an astronomical inaccuracy. the shear amount of resources, how the sun stays in the middle

none of which have anything to do with astronomy you twit.
Quote:
, not to mention that its somehow illuminated from the outside. [/qute]
Vee, I dunno, maybe there's a star around to do that?
Quote:
Quote:
Also, can you change your fucking sig. Its really massive and irritating.
i am just going to ignore you now.

The truth hurts sometimes.
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:51pm 

Castellan


Joined: 2010-03-09 03:16pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Bound in a nutshell
Quote:
and it is an astronomical inaccuracy. the shear amount of resources, how the sun stays in the middle, not to mention that its somehow illuminated from the outside.


Only the last of these even relates to astronomy. Astronomy is the study of the night sky. The things you list involve engineering and logistics, not astronomy. Even the relative position of the star would be more celestial dynamics or mechanics, not astronomy.
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HMS Sophia
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:51pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-08-22 07:47am
Posts: 1229
Location: Watching the levee break
Okay, fine, whatever. anyway:

Quote:
the shear amount of resources

If we accept it was the act of an omnipotent being, I think we can safely assume they created the resources. After all, when Q shrinks the enterprise, where does the rest of the ship go? And where do the resources come from when he brings it back?

Quote:
how the sun stays in the middle

How does the sun stay in the middle of the earth's orbit?....

Quote:
not to mention that its somehow illuminated from the outside

Bad lighting department? But seriously, how much light would hit it from the stars around it?

Quote:
The truth hurts sometimes.

Was that at me or him? :?
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:57pm 

Castellan


Joined: 2010-03-09 03:16pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Bound in a nutshell
As for why the star remained in the centre? Well, even if the sphere masses as much as the star, its spread out evenly across the whole thing. So for the star, it experiences a net gravitational pull of zero as any single force will be cancelled out by the one on the far side.

That's basic mechanics mate. You might try learning some stuff before coming and arguing.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:57pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
none of which have anything to do with astronomy you twit
well that shows just how uninformed you are. resources=good luck finding and mining them. sun in the middle..do i even need to explain why its nonsense?
Quote:
Vee, I dunno, maybe there's a star around to do that?

well, and where do we ever hear of it, see it or otherwise? im tired of speculations.
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Metahive
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 03:59pm 

Jedi Council Member


Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
Posts: 2465
Location: Little Korea in Big Germany
Ryag Han wrote:
sure they seam brake conservation of mass and energy, but that dose not mean they just break it, they most likely bypass it or, as far as we know, there's more to it than we know, and its neither.

Dude, that's a species that can alter the gravitational constant of the universe on a whim! If taken to the extreme it means they could potentially cause Big Bangs and Big Crunches at will. You really think crapping out a big, hollow metal ball is beyond their capabilities?

Quote:
anyways, i didn't see hundreds of spaceships full of people that are all like "oh my god, a DYSON SPHERE!" there's no one around. you might think that if they wanted to show off, they'd make it in a place and time when more people can actually see it, and NOT crash into it or be sucked into it for no apparent reason.

You're really getting too hung up on this example. Stop being a concrete thinker, it was just a potential explanation. And anyways, it might not have been to impress the rabble but some of the other god-like beings who presumably don't need starships to observe stuff.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:00pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
Another inaccuracy is the sphere should actually still be visible. Maybe not to the naked eye, but infrared sensors should have at least seen it.
yes, but we see it IN VISIBLE LIGHT

Quote:
The light from the sun inside never goes away. Unless it's a perfect insulator - meaning the temperature inside would constantly be rising.... didn't happen - the same power the sun puts out would eventually be radiated out by the sphere.
then it had to have more holes like the one it used to suck the Enterprise in, but didn't they say there was NO entrance whatsoever?
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Eternal_Freedom
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:00pm 

Castellan


Joined: 2010-03-09 03:16pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Bound in a nutshell
And I'm tired of your bullshit statements.

Quote:
do i even need to explain why its nonsense?


Yes, please explain. We are clearly so very inferior to you, O Lord of the Forum Debates! [/sarcasm]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Put up or shut up.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:03pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
anyways, i didn't see hundreds of spaceships full of people that are all like "oh my god, a DYSON SPHERE!" there's no one around. you might think that if they wanted to show off, they'd make it in a place and time when more people can actually see it, and NOT crash into it or be sucked into it for no apparent reason.

You're really getting too hung up on this example. Stop being a concrete thinker, it was just a potential explanation. And anyways, it might not have been to impress the rabble but some of the other god-like beings who presumably don't need starships to observe stuff.[/quote]

so they ant to impress other god-like being...that most likely also have the same ability, and can do it in an instant as well. the other god-like beings would be like "big deal, my 1 million year old son did that last millennium!"
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Serafina
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:04pm 

Sith Acolyte


Joined: 2009-01-07 06:37pm
Posts: 5227
Location: Germany
Destructionator XIII wrote:
Ryag Han wrote:
and it is an astronomical inaccuracy. the shear amount of resources, how the sun stays in the middle, not to mention that its somehow illuminated from the outside.


Hah.

Another inaccuracy is the sphere should actually still be visible. Maybe not to the naked eye, but infrared sensors should have at least seen it.

The light from the sun inside never goes away. Unless it's a perfect insulator - meaning the temperature inside would constantly be rising.... didn't happen - the same power the sun puts out would eventually be radiated out by the sphere.


So ultimately the dyson sphere is just as "bright" as the sun inside, just with a different kind of emission. The sensors should have seen it, regardless of gravity.
It could actually make a difference. While the same amount of radiation is, well, radiated away, it now radiates from a much larger surface. That might change how the Dyson Sphere looks, so that it would look differently from the star on it's own from a distance.
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Metahive
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:04pm 

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Joined: 2010-09-02 09:08am
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Location: Little Korea in Big Germany
And even if he does, how's TNG crappier than ENT just for featuring a Dyson Sphere? I don't see the connection. To enjoy escapist sci-fi you already have to supress quite a bit of disbelief, but ENT wasn't exactly any "harder" than TNG.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:07pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
Yes, please explain. We are clearly so very inferior to you, O Lord of the Forum Debates!


stars move along the galaxy. the sun has a velocity of 220 km/s around the galactic core. the sphere would need the same speed to keep the star in the middle, otherwise gravity would be bigger on one side and smaller on the other side of the superstructure, and you get, a large, pretty hole in your Dyson sphere.
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HMS Sophia
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:09pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-08-22 07:47am
Posts: 1229
Location: Watching the levee break
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
Yes, please explain. We are clearly so very inferior to you, O Lord of the Forum Debates!


stars move along the galaxy. the sun has a velocity of 220 km/s around the galactic core. the sphere would need the same speed to keep the star in the middle, otherwise gravity would be bigger on one side and smaller on the other side of the superstructure, and you get, a large, pretty hole in your Dyson sphere.


Would you though? if the Dyson sphere was constructed essentially in the orbit of a sun (as it takes up an entire orbital path) would the constructor not already be travelling at those speeds as the sphere is constructed. Therefore when it is completed, the sun and the sphere will be travelling at equal speeds etc etc, and no big hole appears?
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:16pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Quote:
How does the sun stay in the middle of the earth's orbit?....

gravity, but guess what, Earth is 333,000 smaller than the sun, and is free to do orbit. there's a difference between orbit and keeping a star in the middle of giant hollowed metal ball.

Quote:
If we accept it was the act of an omnipotent being, I think we can safely assume they created the resources. After all, when Q shrinks the enterprise, where does the rest of the ship go? And where do the resources come from when he brings it back?

so...magic!

Quote:
Bad lighting department? But seriously, how much light would hit it from the stars around it?

with no binary companion, it should be only a dark silhouette against the blackness of space. but ok, lets go for now with a binary companion. if its to close to the middle star, its gravity would make things worse. to far, and there would be to much light. the far away binary companion would look like just a brighter star, not enough for the amount we saw in the episode.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:18pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
barnest2 wrote:
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
Yes, please explain. We are clearly so very inferior to you, O Lord of the Forum Debates!


stars move along the galaxy. the sun has a velocity of 220 km/s around the galactic core. the sphere would need the same speed to keep the star in the middle, otherwise gravity would be bigger on one side and smaller on the other side of the superstructure, and you get, a large, pretty hole in your Dyson sphere.


Would you though? if the Dyson sphere was constructed essentially in the orbit of a sun (as it takes up an entire orbital path) would the constructor not already be travelling at those speeds as the sphere is constructed. Therefore when it is completed, the sun and the sphere will be travelling at equal speeds etc etc, and no big hole appears?



that's a interesting idea, but as they would build more of it, the gravity from the sun would disturb its orbit, and they'd be forced to constantly use energy to keep it in orbit.
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HMS Sophia
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:21pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-08-22 07:47am
Posts: 1229
Location: Watching the levee break
Ryag Han wrote:
barnest2 wrote:

Would you though? if the Dyson sphere was constructed essentially in the orbit of a sun (as it takes up an entire orbital path) would the constructor not already be travelling at those speeds as the sphere is constructed. Therefore when it is completed, the sun and the sphere will be travelling at equal speeds etc etc, and no big hole appears?



that's a interesting idea, but as they would build more of it, the gravity from the sun would disturb its orbit, and they'd be forced to constantly use energy to keep it in orbit.



What if, and its a big if, you constructed what are essentially a series of rings. You can either do this in a distant orbit and then boost them in, or build it up a ring at a time, so that it starts out as essentially a Niven ring, and then is slowly built up into a dyson sphere?

(also thanks Destuct. However, even managing it for a few million years is awesome)
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:22pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
Metahive wrote:
And even if he does, how's TNG crappier than ENT just for featuring a Dyson Sphere? I don't see the connection. To enjoy escapist sci-fi you already have to supress quite a bit of disbelief, but ENT wasn't exactly any "harder" than TNG.


no one said that. but everybody is complaining about the Qu'nos thing, while TNG had this, and no one says anything.
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Batman
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:23pm 

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Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
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Location: Looking for another drawer
barnest 2 wrote:
Was that at me or him? :?

Sorry, me and the quote tags aren't really on speaking terms. That was directed at Ryag's reaction to your comment that his sig was totally tiny and you had no problem at all with it. :wink:
Quote:
Ryag Han wrote:
Quote:
none of which have anything to do with astronomy you twit
well that shows just how uninformed you are. resources=good luck finding and mining them. sun in the middle..do i even need to explain why its nonsense?

You not only have to explain why this is nonsense, you have to explain what any of that has to do with bad astronomy.
Quote:
Quote:
Vee, I dunno, maybe there's a star around to do that?

well, and where do we ever hear of it, see it or otherwise? im tired of speculations.

Sucks to be you then. It's undeniably illuminated from the outside, for which the most likely candidate is a nearby star. You don't like that idea, find a better one.
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Ryag Han
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:26pm 

Youngling


Joined: 2009-12-27 05:47pm
Posts: 138
barnest2 wrote:
Ryag Han wrote:
barnest2 wrote:

Would you though? if the Dyson sphere was constructed essentially in the orbit of a sun (as it takes up an entire orbital path) would the constructor not already be travelling at those speeds as the sphere is constructed. Therefore when it is completed, the sun and the sphere will be travelling at equal speeds etc etc, and no big hole appears?



that's a interesting idea, but as they would build more of it, the gravity from the sun would disturb its orbit, and they'd be forced to constantly use energy to keep it in orbit.



What if, and its a big if, you constructed what are essentially a series of rings. You can either do this in a distant orbit and then boost them in, or build it up a ring at a time, so that it starts out as essentially a Niven ring, and then is slowly built up into a dyson sphere?

(also thanks Destuct. However, even managing it for a few million years is awesome)



then it raises the question: why make it complete solid?
something like this would be more tangible
Image
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HMS Sophia
PostPosted: 2011-07-14 04:27pm 

Jedi Master


Joined: 2010-08-22 07:47am
Posts: 1229
Location: Watching the levee break
Ryag Han wrote:
then it raises the question: why make it complete solid?
something like this would be more tangible
Image


... Because a solid one is more cool? :P
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