Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

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Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-01-29 01:04am

A few years ago, I read an article on a new Star Trek cartoon- inspired by Genndy Tartakovsky's Star Wars: Clone Wars- in the works. The series became stillborn, and the script and concept art are now posted on the intended producer's website.
Zero Room Productions wrote:Star Trek: Final Frontier was developed for Startrek.com by Zero Room Productions in late 2005 as a series of five six-minute animated segments with a continuing plot that could lead to more adventures should viewership warrant. The success of Cartoon Network's original Clone Wars series was a definite inspiration, and showed that such a model was possible. With Star Trek on television dying out and nothing new for the franchise in the foreseeable future, Final Frontier was designed to give Startrek.com original content, provide fans with a new and different vision of the franchise, and to do so in a way that was relatively low risk for CBS.

Although each of us had worked behind the scenes at Star Trek for years, this project was conceived and developed on our own time and our own limited budget. With the exception of a few commissioned designs, all the work you see here was done for free by people who are not only talented professionals, but also Star Trek fans who have grown up with the franchise, witnessed its great leaps and occasional stumbles, and contributed their time to bring fans all over the world new and exciting stories in the universe we all love so much. Animation would allow us to tell stories with a scope that would be impossible in live action, bring in younger viewers who had no idea what Star Trek was, and help return the franchise to its roots of optimism, exploration, adventure, and fun. Startrek.com was eager to distribute the new series, and from 2006-2007 we went through a series of pitches with CBS Interactive, met with animation companies to begin planning a budget and visual style, and wrote (and re-wrote) the pilot story.

At the end of 2007, the entire staff of Startrek.com was laid off, and a reshuffle of management at CBS Interactive soon followed. While CBS was undergoing these changes, Paramount was charging ahead with a huge new film to restart the franchise and abandon everything that had come before. A majority of our contacts were now gone, and everyone we spoke with at CBS expressed the company's desire to put any further Star Trek projects on hold until the release of the new film. With that release more than a year away at the time, we reluctantly put the project into limbo and returned to our families and careers despite some kicking and screaming.

It's now 2009. J.J. Abrams' Star Trek has been released to massive critical acclaim and fan acceptance, and the film does indeed take many steps to return Star Trek to what attracted many people to it in the first place. With the Star Trek franchise now heading in this new direction, we've decided to give fans a look at what Final Frontier might have been. We've provided some background to the future we were working in, an overview of the new Enterprise crew, and will be releasing scripts for the five-part pilot story. In addition, the design section and gallery contain final and concept artwork that provides a look at the visual style we were aiming for. The content of this site represents a total of over two years of hard work and dedication.

This project was formulated by Star Trek fans for Star Trek fans. We welcome your comments and criticisms and look forward to discussing the project with you, the people who have kept Star Trek alive for over forty years and counting...

Now that the "behind-the-scenes" stuff is out of the way...
Star Trek: Final Frontier takes places in the future of the Star Trek universe, approximately 150 years after the last events seen in the Next Generation era. This setting allows us to draw from Star Trek's rich past, but also to establish a new continuity that viewers can enjoy without detailed knowledge of decades of Star Trek history. The following summary provides a background for what happened in the time between Nemesis and Final Frontier. These events aren't portrayed in Final Frontier, but their echoes play heavily into the focus of the story:

In the wake of a vicious attack, warp travel has been rendered useless throughout much of Federation space. The detonation of multiple Omega devices has ripped subspace apart, marooning a handful of Federation worlds in their own systems, destroying key starbases, and stranding some Federation citizens decades of sublight travel away from their nearest neighbors and the protection of Starfleet. After investigating the attacks, the Federation discovered evidence of Romulan involvement and, desperate to retaliate, immediately declared war. The second Romulan war began, with the Romulans denying any involvement in the devastating Omega attacks.

With large sectors of space impassable at warp speed, the war quickly devolved into the 26th century equivalent of trench warfare, with heavy losses on both sides and little advancement for either force. A truce was reached, and the once mighty Federation retreated behind its borders to concentrate on rebuilding its worlds, strengthening its core systems, and ensuring that such an attack never occurs again. Starships once responsible for exploring the galaxy and maintaining diplomatic relations with non-Federation worlds were recalled to patrol the borders, and the scientific mandate of Starfleet was abandoned in favor of isolation and protectionism.

Yet there are those in Starfleet who know that humanity was meant for more, and that our foray into the stars was borne not of a desire for power but for knowledge and adventure. Captain Alexander Chase of the U.S.S. Enterprise is one of these men, and he's about to make a decision that will set Starfleet back on the right path...

The first five episodes' scripts are posted here, with storyboards posted here. I was impressed with the direction the series was heading towards, as hinted by the following lines of dialogue:
CMDR Holden (Enterprise's XO): "Two good men died today. Could have been more. Was it really worth it?"

CAPT Chase (Enterprise's CO): "They died saving a race from extinction. They died for the principles that Starfleet was founded upon. If that's not worth breaking the rules...

CAPT Chase: "Then what do we stand for anymore?"

Note the captain does not try using the Prime Directive as an excuse to sit back and watch people die before him. (Cough! Picard in Pen Pals and Homeward! Archer in Dear Doctor! Cough!)
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sarevok » 2011-01-29 04:41am

It reads like a bad fan fiction. It bears no resemblance to Star Trek. Why not make it an original series instead of using the Star Trek name branding for publicity purposes ?
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Chris OFarrell » 2011-01-29 08:11am

I agree.

I mean Omega bombs creating TRENCH WARFARE in space?

Even this summery sounds incredibly preachy in the same way I get from people who hate DS9 because it dared to show something other then human utopia and exploration around the Galaxy, happy as Larry. "This was formulated by Star Trek Fans, for Star Trek Fans"...so long as we define what makes a Star Trek fan. And all this icky Military stuff is so wrong, so VERY wrong...

Frankly, the best bet for something like this, IMHO, would be 3-4 years post Dominion war, a dedicated hardcore exploration ship loaded with Starfleets newest technology, perhaps even a limited Slipstream type drive, that is going to retrace Voyagers route and follow up on things (mostly apologizing to various people along the way about Janeway of course). You have a huge swath of the Delta Quadrent that Voyager didn't touch on the return journey, as well as other only partially touched on groups, long term consequences to look at for certain actions of Voyager e.t.c; in short, if you get REAL writers and SERIOUS people committed to do a show about getting back to the final frontier, then thats your answer to keep old and new fans.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Purple » 2011-01-29 09:48am

In the grim darkness of the 25th century, there is only war.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby AMT » 2011-01-29 10:20am

I like it. It's a fresh take on Trek. Pity it didn't pan out.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby General Schatten » 2011-01-29 12:28pm

Like the uniforms and hate the ships.

Story sounds boring as well.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-01-29 12:36pm

Sarevok wrote:It reads like a bad fan fiction. It bears no resemblance to Star Trek. Why not make it an original series instead of using the Star Trek name branding for publicity purposes ?

I suspect TOS fans say the same about TNG. Any input on the differences between the time when Roddenberry was sane, and the time he was not?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Skylon » 2011-01-29 04:03pm

Sidewinder wrote:I suspect TOS fans say the same about TNG. Any input on the differences between the time when Roddenberry was sane, and the time he was not?


I thought most TOS fans back then felt TNG seemed like a cheap imitation of TOS. In a way it was. Structure wise, the season 1 episodes do feel closer to TOS. By season 3 TNG really grows into its own.

This premise of this cartoon did feel like bad fanfic to me, with its "RAR! WAR!" back story.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby AMT » 2011-01-29 04:46pm

Skylon wrote:
Sidewinder wrote:I suspect TOS fans say the same about TNG. Any input on the differences between the time when Roddenberry was sane, and the time he was not?


I thought most TOS fans back then felt TNG seemed like a cheap imitation of TOS. In a way it was. Structure wise, the season 1 episodes do feel closer to TOS. By season 3 TNG really grows into its own.

This premise of this cartoon did feel like bad fanfic to me, with its "RAR! WAR!" back story.


Why? It's two hundred years in the future. One would assume such a war could occur, and it's a good way to clear the board and allow the writers a little more freedom when crafting stories.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Purple » 2011-01-29 04:51pm

My gripe with it is that it goes all darker and grimmer and essentially deviates even farther from the original point of TOS.
The future is bright, the future is perfect. In the future humanity has grown beyond conflict and evil.

I mean, why don't they return to the original premise of an optimistic future. Something that we can look forward to and be proud of.

But I admit that I am still carried by the romantic memory of TOS. Since the one and only time I watched it I was to young to even read.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby AniThyng » 2011-01-29 06:32pm

Purple wrote:My gripe with it is that it goes all darker and grimmer and essentially deviates even farther from the original point of TOS.
The future is bright, the future is perfect. In the future humanity has grown beyond conflict and evil.

I mean, why don't they return to the original premise of an optimistic future. Something that we can look forward to and be proud of.

But I admit that I am still carried by the romantic memory of TOS. Since the one and only time I watched it I was to young to even read.


The article said wrote: Yet there are those in Starfleet who know that humanity was meant for more, and that our foray into the stars was borne not of a desire for power but for knowledge and adventure. Captain Alexander Chase of the U.S.S. Enterprise is one of these men, and he's about to make a decision that will set Starfleet back on the right path...


Does that answer the question?
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Cecelia5578 » 2011-01-29 11:16pm

Purple wrote:My gripe with it is that it goes all darker and grimmer and essentially deviates even farther from the original point of TOS.
The future is bright, the future is perfect. In the future humanity has grown beyond conflict and evil.

I mean, why don't they return to the original premise of an optimistic future. Something that we can look forward to and be proud of.

But I admit that I am still carried by the romantic memory of TOS. Since the one and only time I watched it I was to young to even read.



I'll be the first to admit that I don't like Dark, Grim, Grimdark stuff very much either, and that I remember back in the late 90s/early 00s, a lot of the ASVS and early SDN SW v ST debates got really blood thirsty on the SW side-making fun of the wimpy communistic Feddies in often gruesome ways.

I guess, though, that the ridiculously overoptimistic, rosy view of the future as presented by TOS, really seemed quite naive (or was it the later hagiographers who put that gloss on it?). And yeah, obviously TNG and TMP presented human society in very naive, ridiculous ways.

Without delving into ridiculous utopian politics and ideas, why can't we simply have a sorta democratic, republican UFP that has high ideals, and sometimes but not always lives up to them, and that actually has a proper military style force defending it, without descending into the extremes of over the top violence or mil wank, or...some uber idealistic view of human nature in the future?
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby JME2 » 2011-01-30 02:45pm

Cecelia5578 wrote:Without delving into ridiculous utopian politics and ideas, why can't we simply have a sorta democratic, republican UFP that has high ideals, and sometimes but not always lives up to them, and that actually has a proper military style force defending it, without descending into the extremes of over the top violence or mil wank, or...some uber idealistic view of human nature in the future?


I hope the future reboot stories portray the UFP along these lines.

As it stands, DS9's take was the most realistic take on the UFP, at least within the confines of the TNG-era morality and Utopian mindset.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Purple » 2011-01-30 04:39pm

Does no one else hope for a TOS like naive show to warm our hearths and souls in this dark age of grim dark?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-01-31 12:22am

Purple wrote:Does no one else hope for a TOS like naive show to warm our hearths and souls in this dark age of grim dark?

If you want a naive but heartwarming show, there's Sesame Street and other children's programming. Star Trek was meant to be adult drama, as David Gerold stated in The World of Star Trek; Roddenberry's later insanity and tendency to use the show as a "bully pulpit," gave the optimism a saccharin taste most adults couldn't tolerate.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Stofsk » 2011-01-31 12:53am

TOS was never naive as well. It questioned things, humanity wasn't perfect and indeed had a fair long way to go before it could sit at the same table as guys like the Metrons or Organians. Hell there was even some question as whether they could sit at the same table as the Vulcans, who were at least partners with them in the Federation.

Kirk was a flawed character too. He made mistakes, but the point was he learned from them. That was the source of the optimism that ran throughout the show.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby JME2 » 2011-01-31 12:00pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Purple wrote:Does no one else hope for a TOS like naive show to warm our hearths and souls in this dark age of grim dark?

If you want a naive but heartwarming show, there's Sesame Street and other children's programming. Star Trek was meant to be adult drama, as David Gerold stated in The World of Star Trek; Roddenberry's later insanity and tendency to use the show as a "bully pulpit," gave the optimism a saccharin taste most adults couldn't tolerate.


Yeah, that moral arrogance and holier-than-thou-art attitude always bugged me about the TNG-era stories -- particularly during VGR's peak. Again, at least DS9 wasn't afraid to show that the UFP was far from perfect and still had a long way to go.

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-01-31 01:02pm

Stofsk wrote:TOS was never naive as well.

I was referring to TNG, which is a show I'm fairly familiar with. (I haven't seen enough of TOS to judge it.)
Kirk was a flawed character too. He made mistakes, but the point was he learned from them. That was the source of the optimism that ran throughout the show.

I agree. My problem is in TNG, the characters don't admit to themselves- or even recognize- they're naive, or learn from the resulting mistakes. Darth Wong has complained the Romulans violate what treaties they have with the Federation, repeatedly- and the Federation still treats the pointy-eared bastards as if both sides followed the letter of the law!
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Uraniun235 » 2011-01-31 01:48pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Stofsk wrote:TOS was never naive as well.

I was referring to TNG, which is a show I'm fairly familiar with. (I haven't seen enough of TOS to judge it.)
Kirk was a flawed character too. He made mistakes, but the point was he learned from them. That was the source of the optimism that ran throughout the show.

I agree. My problem is in TNG, the characters don't admit to themselves- or even recognize- they're naive, or learn from the resulting mistakes. Darth Wong has complained the Romulans violate what treaties they have with the Federation, repeatedly- and the Federation still treats the pointy-eared bastards as if both sides followed the letter of the law!

Which incidents do you think Captain Picard and/or the Federation should have responded differently to, and how?



P.S. In TOS, Captain Kirk flew the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone to chase down a marauding Romulan starship, charged straight into Romulan territory into a direct confrontation with three Romulan starships, directly destroyed two Klingon starships (not at the same time), got into a slugging match with a third, chased down a Gorn starship with intent to destroy in retaliation for destroying a Federation outpost, argued that the Federation has a right to wage war, and threatened planetary bombardment against a substantially inferior opponent. Why haven't you watched TOS yet?
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-01-31 02:54pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Which incidents do you think Captain Picard and/or the Federation should have responded differently to, and how?
.
When citing the Prime Directive, Starfleet officers should've kept the spirit of the law in mind, i.e., the Prime Directive was installed to save lives, not give Picard an excuse to sit by and watch people die deaths he could've prevented. (Homeward is the example I remember most.) If Picard chooses to do nothing while people die, he must provide a reason acceptable to the audience, e.g., "We cannot end a civil war between these two factions, even though we can, because this will set a dangerous precedent for other powers to intervene in the affairs of the Federation and its allies- say, if civil war engulfs the Romulan Star Empire, and the Cardassians support a militaristic faction whose leader demands the return of territory the Federation won during the Earth-Romulan War," or "We cannot provide medical aid to these people, even though we can cure them of the disease, because the same disease becomes incurable when it afflicts Vulcans." He should also express anguish, guilt, and remorse at this decision.
Why haven't you watched TOS yet?

A combination of various factors:

1) At the same time I was a TNG Trekkie, TOS wasn't broadcast where I lived, except at midnight. As I was a high school student at the time, it wasn't practical to stay up and watch it.

2) TOS was written from the POV of people from the 1960s. I grew up during the 80s and 90s, putting a generation gap between me and my ability to relate with the characters and the circumstances they were in.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby General Zod » 2011-01-31 04:04pm

Sidewinder wrote:2) TOS was written from the POV of people from the 1960s. I grew up during the 80s and 90s, putting a generation gap between me and my ability to relate with the characters and the circumstances they were in.


Nonsense. The reason the original series has aged so well is a lot of the themes are completely generation independent. A few episodes try and be a bit too topical but the vast majority are very easy to relate to.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Uraniun235 » 2011-01-31 04:38pm

Sidewinder wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Which incidents do you think Captain Picard and/or the Federation should have responded differently to, and how?
.
When citing the Prime Directive, Starfleet officers should've kept the spirit of the law in mind, i.e., the Prime Directive was installed to save lives, not give Picard an excuse to sit by and watch people die deaths he could've prevented. (Homeward is the example I remember most.) If Picard chooses to do nothing while people die, he must provide a reason acceptable to the audience, e.g., "We cannot end a civil war between these two factions, even though we can, because this will set a dangerous precedent for other powers to intervene in the affairs of the Federation and its allies- say, if civil war engulfs the Romulan Star Empire, and the Cardassians support a militaristic faction whose leader demands the return of territory the Federation won during the Earth-Romulan War," or "We cannot provide medical aid to these people, even though we can cure them of the disease, because the same disease becomes incurable when it afflicts Vulcans." He should also express anguish, guilt, and remorse at this decision.
Why haven't you watched TOS yet?

A combination of various factors:

1) At the same time I was a TNG Trekkie, TOS wasn't broadcast where I lived, except at midnight. As I was a high school student at the time, it wasn't practical to stay up and watch it.

2) TOS was written from the POV of people from the 1960s. I grew up during the 80s and 90s, putting a generation gap between me and my ability to relate with the characters and the circumstances they were in.

Yes yes yes, Gene Roddenberry's fascination with the absolute "inviolate" Prime Directive was silly, but that has little to do with the Federation's response to the Romulan Empire and their repeated treaty violations which is what I was driving after. Do you have any examples relating to the Romulans?


Also, I was born in 1985, and I have many memories of sitting down with Mom and Dad to watch TNG, and TOS is still my favorite Trek series of all. You should seriously watch it.
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Sidewinder » 2011-02-01 10:44am

Uraniun235 wrote:Yes yes yes, Gene Roddenberry's fascination with the absolute "inviolate" Prime Directive was silly, but that has little to do with the Federation's response to the Romulan Empire and their repeated treaty violations which is what I was driving after. Do you have any examples relating to the Romulans?

Sorry, I thought you were speaking of Picard's conduct in general.

Anyways, the Romulans have abducted and brainwashed Starfleet personnel to assassinate Klingon officials, in an effort to sow distrust between the Romulans' main rivals (see The Mind's Eye)- an act of war, as Archduke Franz Ferdinand demonstrated. They also violated the Neutral Zone when they attempted to invade Vulcan (see Unification II); though the invasion ships were of Vulcan design, giving the invaders plausible deniability, the warbird that destroyed them was definitely not. Even if the Federation wanted to avoid war, the Romulans' failure to uphold their end of the deal, should've absolved the Federation of upholding theirs, e.g., let them say, "We might as well install cloaking devices aboard our major ships. Treaty violations? The Romulans effectively nullified the Treaty of Algeron, when they violated the Neutral Zone like a $20 whore!"
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Uraniun235
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Uraniun235 » 2011-02-01 10:07pm

Regarding naivete in Federation policy: I could go on for a few paragraphs with some mixed episode quotes and speculation about Federation/Empire relations and war risks, but ultimately it comes down to one of two things: you're either generous enough to believe Captain Picard when he asserts that the treaty was responsible for keeping the peace for 60+ years, or you're cynical enough to believe that the treaty didn't really make a difference (or that they should have just had a war with the Romulans anyway). I'm inclined to believe the former, but whatever.


Regarding naivete in Picard's actions towards the Romulans: no.

Contagion: Picard finds out that Yamato flew deep into the Neutral Zone - closer to Romulan space than Federation - to locate ancient Iconian technology. After Yamato is destroyed by the Iconian computer program, Picard takes up Yamato's self-assigned mission and charges deep into the Neutral Zone in order to deny the Romulans access to the Iconian outpost.

The Enemy: Picard denies a Romulan Warbird permission to enter Federation territory, even while a Romulan officer is dying for want of a blood transfusion. (this was a pretty crummy plot device, really)

The Defector: After being tipped off by a reluctant defector, Picard charges into the Neutral Zone to destroy an alleged Romulan invasion base. Data's log entry mentions that the command staff expected to run into resistance and were prepared to fight their way through to Nelvana III.

Data's Day: When Picard determines that the Romulans beamed the Federation ambassador away rather than having been killed in a transporter accident, he immediately orders the Enterprise into a confrontation with the Romulans to retrieve what he thought was an abducted Federation ambassador.


Picard was not afraid to confront the Romulans, even at great risk to the Enterprise.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
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Uraniun235
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Re: Concept behind stillborn 'Star Trek' cartoon

Postby Uraniun235 » 2011-02-01 10:11pm

I'd also note, as an interesting bit of trivia, that in Redemption when Picard floats his Romulan detection net operation to Starfleet Command, Starfleet and the Federation Council agree to effectively commit the entirety of Starfleet strength in that area in support of the operation.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image

What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk


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