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I've got some exiting news. The new title for Star Wars episode 8 is.... Star Wars the last Jedi

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UtI2BJcrrsY[/youtube]

Im sorry but I forget how to do the YouTube video hear.

Does that mean that Luke is going to bite it? I hope not. Or if he does, that he gets to do something really awesome first.

On the other hand, it could be an oblique reference to Luke, since Yoda called him the last of the Jedi in Return of the Jedi.

Or possibly that Luke no longer sees himself as a Jedi, after his self-imposed exile, leaving Rey as the last of the Jedi?

Or all of the above. Hmm, this will lead to a lot of guessing.

Oh, and the link doesn't work, obviously.

I'd assume Luke is the titular Last Jedi. Seeing as Rey is not trained yet.

Could be the First Temple has given Luke some insight into how the Jedi are actually responsible for the Force going off the rails. Before there were Jedi, there was the Will (or Whills) of the Force. Introduce the Jedi, one of whom falls and begins the Force-using Sith tradition, and plunges the universe into an age of conflict between "the Light" and "the Dark", where as before it simply was. In effect, the Jedi screwed up the whole mechanism by trying to become "karma police".

Luke: "I will not train you to become a Jedi, but I will teach you the ways of the Force."*

*completely made-up horseshit.

No offence, but the Light Side and Dark Side are pretty damn integral to Star Wars, at least as its presented in the films. The continued insistence of certain fans to try to contrive ways for how their is no Light or Dark Side, and everything is really the fault of the Jedi, pretty much just seems like either a lame attempt at an "edgy twist", or people trying to insert their personal philosophical beliefs in favour of greater moral relativism and ambiguity into the franchise, without much regard for established canon.

If the film went the route you describe, I would likely regard it as the author soapboxing at the expense of canon, and get rather pissed off.

That said, I've been speculating for a while that Luke may have gone looking into the origins of the Jedi in order to determine how the Sith came into being, in order to stop history from repeating itself. What the answer might be is a question I will not speculate on at the moment.

There is one movie gap between Return of the Jedi and The Last Jedi Way to go, Jar Jar.

Of course with him still involved I don't have any expectations. Let's hope the Han Solo movie is good.

Also as I just saw pointed out on Yahoo of all places. Jedi is both singular and plural. So Jedi can mean Luke and Rey not one or the other. Or any number of remaining Jedi really.

Huh. That's true.

Well, as long as they don't give my all time favourite Jedi Luke a lame send-off.

The Romulan Republic wrote:If the film went the route you describe, I would likely regard it as the author soapboxing at the expense of canon, and get rather pissed off.

Then Obi-Wan must have really cooked your goose when he dropped the "certain point of view" bomb in RotJ.

The light (knowledge, defense) and the dark (anger, fear, aggression) aren't divisible from actual people, and the Jedi Order didn't even agree what those meant. Qui-Gon wasn't in sync with the Council because he followed "the Living Force", not their traditions. Yet the Force guided him to Anikin.

That said, I've been speculating for a while that Luke may have gone looking into the origins of the Jedi in order to determine how the Sith came into being, in order to stop history from repeating itself. What the answer might be is a question I will not speculate on at the moment.

We did have Yoda pretty much call it out in Ep II, that the Jedi Order had become ineffective in their mission: they had been manipulated into a galactic civil war (and then continued to drop the ball for a few years more, before being wiped-out.)

My read is that the First Temple isn't so much about how the Sith came to be, but what the Jedi were meant to be (or not to be*), without the resulting traditions layered-on over millennia. I have to wonder (or speculate, whatever) if the Jedi were just temple guards that weren't supposed to get training in the Force, just protect the Whills from day-to-day distractions, and one day, one guard learned he had Force potential and became the first of the "karma police", and caused all the Force-enhanced conflict to follow. Okay, that sounds a lot like the Peacekeepers in Farscape. Eh.

“Always pass on what you have learned.” – Yoda
“You must unlearn what you have learned.” – Yoda

*that is the question

I have no problem with this title. It sounds appropriately ominous.

Galvatron wrote:I have no problem with this title. It sounds appropriately ominous.

Indeed.

And now that I know this bit of information, time to leave the thread rather than read people's (inevitable) shitty fanfic ideas about what it means.

It clearly means that everyone will start following the ways of Bendu, thus ending the eternal conflict between light and dark.

Like another pointed out, its kinda funny it took only one movie (and 30 years) to go from the Jedi returning to the last of the Jedi.

But anyway, I'm hopeful this will be good. The Force Snoozes was decent (though I much preferred it when it was still called ANH, yes I'm still harping on that) and Rogue One was pretty good (funny that Kylo Ren is supposed to be the new big bad villain but his granddaddy came in to steal his thunder). I'm hoping the next movie of the new Disney canon is good too especially because its an Episode. I'm hoping they do something different, don't rip off Empire or Return. TFA did its job to salve the chapped asses of OT fanboys butt blistered Lucas didn't use their headcanon fanfic of what they thought the Prequels should be or the idiots who were swayed by popular opinion. Do something new now.

Not too new mind you, I want it too still fit Star Wars. Some of the fan theories about the end of the Jedi, no light and dark side, destruction of the Force, or how the Jedi were the real bad guys all along seems to me to go against the established mythos.

Yeah I know its kinda shitty on my part to want something new but say more of the same at the same time but I think if people are playing in the Star Wars sandbox they need to use the sand provided, the course, rough, and irritating sand that gets everywhere, and not bring in some gravel or concrete.

Also I want more Captain Phasma and no fucking goddamn Mandalorians. Phasma was a real fucking let down, didn't do shit, and I think that was a real shame for what should have been an awesome character. I don't want any Mandalorians, hell I don't want any t-shaped helmets reminding me of those fucks, so no old Phase 1 Clone armor to show up. I'd be downright giddy if they only throw in a throwaway line about how all the Mandalorians died from food poisoning. I

What if Phasma turns out to be a Mandalorian?

My head would probably explode.

Really though I'd just be really pissed off. Though it wouldn't exactly be out of the question to happen, she was pretty much a newer version of Boba Fett.

Eh, as long as they follow in the footsteps of The Clone Wars and Rebels in their handling of Mandalorians, it would probably be okay.

Hmm, I can see this being a 'passing of the torch' reference between Luke and Rey.

Possibly something equivalent to the discussion in the EU between Jaina Solo and Kyp Durron. The argument basic came down to Kyp saying that Luke was the last of the 'old' Jedi and a poor one at that due to the circumstances. The prequels pretty much established that being a Jedi required training from birth in a massive institution dedicated for it. Luke essentially got the shortest of cliff notes from Yoda and Co. so as to set him up to eventually fight the Emperor and Vader. Kyp Durron basically pushes that they are the 'New Jedi Order' and they need to stop trying to emulate the Old Order which clearly failed.

I can see this being appealing to someone writing the new films from a money bags standpoint. I am under no illusion that Star Wars will stop but the story thus far has is a heavy quagmire of EU and established story of the movies lasting thousands of years. Kill Luke off and essentially allow Rey to become a 'new' type of Force User allows them to ditch it all, get rid of the dependence on Skywalker and set up for an everlasting series of movies.
I could see a sufficiently daring approach turning the Force into basically being super powers like Marvel without the attached Light / Dark ambiguity.
As a result, we get to see more Force users using special effects without the accompanying dialogue akin about 'Will' of the Force.

Phasma - What if she turns out to be the love child of Boba Fett ?

I have also seen rumours that Vader may return as a force ghost in the form of Hayden Christensen - I can actually see this happening both from a bankrupt attempt to further connect back to the previous films and simply because Kylo Ren has his worshipping alter. I feel like this is almost like Red Dwarf: Now you get to listen to the angst in stereo.


First Temple - I am extremely dubious about where that is going. I can see the appeal of going back and trying to portray how the Jedi or the Force first played out but the Prequels already soured the appeal of going back to tell a 'story'. Now, lets go back to the first Jedi and potentially stir up the biggest of shitstorms if they botch it. Even if they did it reasonably, one movie like Star Wars feels like a really short amount of time to delve into what should be a gigantic amount of history.
If the remain consistent with KOTOR - The Jedi have been around for 5000+ years and a movie is going to be hilariously hard pressed to compress that amount of time into something coherent.

The bigger concern - This movie effectively scrubs KOTOR. As a fan of the KOTOR series, I would be monumentally pissed off at this and Bioware would equally have justifications to be unhappy. The whole point of putting KOTOR 4000 years before Star Wars was to allow them to have the freedom to actually create their own Star Wars story away from the main movies.

The biggest ideal: This Temple links KOTOR and the main movies so that Star Wars can officially start drawing on the KOTOR lore. I suppose the biggest and worst thing that could happen is 'The Last Jedi' being a reference to Revan and / or somehow a 'proper' Jedi emerges. Either from another era or a survivor from the Prequels.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Eh, as long as they follow in the footsteps of The Clone Wars and Rebels in their handling of Mandalorians, it would probably be okay.

I wouldn't mind that terribly, though I'm just going on the Clone Wars as I haven't seen Rebel Scum yet but I'm going to assume the portrayal remains mostly consistent. Though I did see some pictures of the Super Commandos from Rebels with the armor based on concept drawings of Fett and they look pretty darn cool.

However I mostly enjoyed the non-warrior Mandalorians more then the Death Watch (even if one had a really sexy voice and made me wants some Starbucks for some reason). I think they were more interesting then the tired old warrior cliche Mandalorians that seemed to exist just so all the Mandalorian crap wasn't retconned out of existence.

Both together were kinda interesting too, a group that wanted peace, wanted to be more then failed warriors that apparently destroyed their own world, while the other was a group that clung to the past and old traditions, unwilling or unable to let go of their legacy even when it kept biting them in the ass.

But any way it goes I want Phasma and nobody else to be Mandalorians. I wouldn't even care if she winds up becoming a Rebel......sorry Resistance member, just do something interesting with the character.

Khaat wrote:Then Obi-Wan must have really cooked your goose when he dropped the "certain point of view" bomb in RotJ.

Two very different things. Obi-wan was saying that his version of Anakin's story was technically true/open to interpretation. He was not saying that everything is relative and that their is no good or evil.

That, or he was just trying to smooth over his own lie.

Also, remember that this is the man who said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"... which is itself an absolute.

Obi-wan's words should not be taken at face value.

The light (knowledge, defense) and the dark (anger, fear, aggression) aren't divisible from actual people,

What do you mean by that?

If you mean that good and evil both exist in individual people, well then yes, obviously.

If you mean that their is no metaphysical good or evil in the Force, but that its all down to the individual, then you are pretty much objectively wrong according to canon. See the Mortis Arc from The Clone Wars, off the top of my head. Which had anthropomorphic personifications of the Light and Dark Side. Not a depiction I particularly cared for, but their it is.

and the Jedi Order didn't even agree what those meant. Qui-Gon wasn't in sync with the Council because he followed "the Living Force", not their traditions. Yet the Force guided him to Anikin.

Again, you are equating two different things.

Following the Living Force as opposed to the Unifying Force or whatever is a distinct question from weather a Light and Dark Side exist. Qui-Gon, to my knowledge, never denied that.

If your point is that the Jedi are fallible, so their views on the Force cannot be trusted, well, no shit.

Which is why its so handy that their are examples of the Light and Dark side that don't rely on word of Jedi to support them.

We did have Yoda pretty much call it out in Ep II, that the Jedi Order had become ineffective in their mission: they had been manipulated into a galactic civil war (and then continued to drop the ball for a few years more, before being wiped-out.)

Again, the Jedi are fallible. This does not mean that their is no Light or Dark Side.

I think a lot of people (I have seen this argument before), mistakenly, or disingenuously, equate "Jedi" and "Light Side", and then use the flaws of the Jedi as proof that their is no Light Side, or that the Light Side is in the wrong. This is another false equivalency.

The Jedi try to follow the Light Side, but they are ultimately ordinary living beings, and hence fallible. That they make mistakes does not invalidate the notion that their is a Light Side, and a Dark Side.

My read is that the First Temple isn't so much about how the Sith came to be, but what the Jedi were meant to be (or not to be*), without the resulting traditions layered-on over millennia.

This is plausible, in and of itself.

I have to wonder (or speculate, whatever) if the Jedi were just temple guards that weren't supposed to get training in the Force, just protect the Whills from day-to-day distractions, and one day, one guard learned he had Force potential and became the first of the "karma police", and caused all the Force-enhanced conflict to follow. Okay, that sounds a lot like the Peacekeepers in Farscape. Eh.

“Always pass on what you have learned.” – Yoda
“You must unlearn what you have learned.” – Yoda

*that is the question

The thing is, because the Dark Side corrupts, and because people are, in general, not immune to the temptation to give in to evil impulses, its pretty much inevitable that if you have Force users, some will fall, and do terribly things, and that that will cause conflict, without needing to bend over backward to blame it all on the Jedi. And likewise, their will pretty much have to be some rules and enforcement.

Your argument amounts to saying "Their would be no crime or war if we just got rid of all the damn cops and laws and ethics."

Bluntly, it seems to me that you are ignoring and misrepresenting canon to try to make the Star Wars universe's rules conform to your preferred philosophical view. Their are other fictional universes where it might fit better, but not Star Wars, where metaphysical good and evil exist and that is integral to the setting and story.

If you don't like it, go write your own universe with whatever rules you please.

PREDATOR490 wrote:The bigger concern - This movie effectively scrubs KOTOR. As a fan of the KOTOR series, I would be monumentally pissed off at this and Bioware would equally have justifications to be unhappy.

Then you'd better brace yourself: KOTOR was already scrubbed. It's entirely Legends now.

Looking forward to it. The red really works for me personally, it sets the mind racing about the tone of the film.


Also: could a mod please, please edit the thread title so it's properly formatted? My inner Grammar Nazi is screaming

Galvatron wrote:

PREDATOR490 wrote:The bigger concern - This movie effectively scrubs KOTOR. As a fan of the KOTOR series, I would be monumentally pissed off at this and Bioware would equally have justifications to be unhappy.

Then you'd better brace yourself: KOTOR was already scrubbed. It's entirely Legends now.

they could still have possibility of the evets of KOTOR still being there in some form if they never specify just how old the "first temple" is, just that it's ancient, which in my opinion would be best even if they deside to otherwise remove all pre-ruusan events from canon. by having an exact birthdate of Jedi Order removes some the mysticism from them it would another case of midiclorians and we all know how well that went.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Khaat wrote:The light (knowledge, defense) and the dark (anger, fear, aggression) aren't divisible from actual people,

The Romulan Republic wrote:What do you mean by that?

If you mean that good and evil both exist in individual people, well then yes, obviously.

If the Jedi Order created rules that led them astray over time.... (No, I'd better spell it out, or you'll fill it in with someone else's argument) they are no longer actively following the Will of the Force, they're trying to make their own future (and look, they did! Oopsie!)

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Khaat wrote:and the Jedi Order didn't even agree what those meant. Qui-Gon wasn't in sync with the Council because he followed "the Living Force", not their traditions. Yet the Force guided him to Anikin.

Again, you are equating two different things.

Following the Living Force as opposed to the Unifying Force or whatever is a distinct question from weather a Light and Dark Side exist. Qui-Gon, to my knowledge, never denied that.

Well, since you missed my point, I'll use a simple sentence: "Qui-Gon did not follow the Order's rules, he followed the Force." If you like, he was a crappy Jedi, but a decent light-sider (notice non-caps.)

Which is why its so handy that their are examples of the Light and Dark side that don't rely on word of Jedi to support them.

See, this is an example of you running off on your own: I read what I wrote. This has nothing to do with it.

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think a lot of people (I have seen this argument before), mistakenly, or disingenuously, equate "Jedi" and "Light Side", and then use the flaws of the Jedi as proof that their is no Light Side, or that the Light Side is in the wrong. This is another false equivalency.

This right here is your problem: I said nothing of the sort. Someone else may have said something like what I did, but that wasn't my argument. Make up your own thread for your shadow-boxing match.

Lemme break it down for you in real-world language:
Luke: I won't indoctrinate you to Roman Catholicism, but I will teach you about "love thy neighbor".

or TL;DR - the dogma's wrong, focus on the idea.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Khaat wrote:My read is that the First Temple isn't so much about how the Sith came to be, but what the Jedi were meant to be (or not to be), without the resulting traditions layered-on over millennia.

This is plausible, in and of itself.

Yay! That was easy! And MY ENTIRE FUCKING POINT!

The thing is, because the Dark Side corrupts, and because people are, in general, not immune to the temptation to give in to evil impulses, its pretty much inevitable that if you have Force users, some will fall, and do terribly things, and that that will cause conflict, without needing to bend over backward to blame it all on the Jedi. And likewise, their will pretty much have to be some rules and enforcement.

Your My shadow argument amounts to saying "Their would be no crime or war if we just got rid of all the damn cops and laws and ethics."

Fixed it for you. Nowhere did I say anything that could be equated with that. Do you want to run things out on slippery slopes? Do you want to draw up false equivalencies? Would you like to relive the glory of assailing arguments someone else made?

Anakin (if you believe the prophecy, and that Anakin is the Chosen One) was created to "bring balance to the Force." Now seeing as the Force led to the destruction of the Jedi, and the end of the Sith, maybe it is the Will of the Force that people stop fucking with it. No more Jedi. No more Sith. Force-sensitives like Chirrut Îmwe are not going to kill billions in a conflict that sweeps the galaxy.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Bluntly, it seems to me that you are ignoring and misrepresenting canon to try to make the Star Wars universe's rules conform to your preferred philosophical view. Their are other fictional universes where it might fit better, but not Star Wars, where metaphysical good and evil exist and that is integral to the setting and story.

Suffering flashbacks to some other statement you read that isn't what I said? Not my circus, not my monkeys. I'll just say it flat out: put it back in your pants.
[I just reread the post you quoted all over and found nothing of the kind.]

DarthPooky wrote:I've got some exiting news. The new title for Star Wars episode 8 is.... Star Wars the last Jedi



I'm sorry but I forget how to do the YouTube video here.

Fixed. (The board code doesn't accept the mobile site url.)

Crazedwraith wrote:Also as I just saw pointed out on Yahoo of all places. Jedi is both singular and plural. So Jedi can mean Luke and Rey not one or the other. Or any number of remaining Jedi really.

Because duh.

The Last Jedi is Luke Skywalker, According to Force Awakens

By Max Evry
January 23, 2017

Lucasfilm just officially announced the Star Wars: Episode VIII title as Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and already a bit of a storm in a teacup has begun brewing online as fans debate what the title might mean. Well, without having seen the film, we can still provide ample evidence that the last Jedi of the title is, in fact, Luke Skywalker, and before you second-guess that to death, let’s provide you with several bits of tangible evidence from 2015’s Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

For starters, it says very clearly in the opening crawl of Episode VII that Luke is, at this point in the timeline, the last Jedi…



There it is. For those grasping at straws looking for some of those “alternative facts” that are becoming more popular these days, there is also a scene in the film where Supreme Leader Snoke refers directly to Luke by the same moniker:

“The droid will soon be delivered to the Resistance… leading them to the last Jedi,” said Snoke.

So there you have it. Yes, “Jedi” is the plural of “Jedi,” but unless Luke has been training an army of pelicans in the ways of the Force on Ahch-To island, he be it. Of course, the thing Snoke fears most is Luke reigniting a generation of Jedi led by new kid on the block Rey (Daisy Ridley), which Rian Johnson has already confirmed we’ll see the beginnings of in Episode VIII. We’re not saying that the title may not contain some hidden meaning, but generally Star Wars titles have been pretty direct. The clones done attacketh, the Empire strucketh back, etc. At the end of the day, fans should be celebrating what this title is announcing: After 34 years, Luke Skywalker is truly back, and rather than being a silent McGuffin, he’s the central character of this new installment of our beloved Saga.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi, which is written and directed by Rian Johnson and continues the storylines introduced in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, welcomes back cast members Mark Hamill, the late Carrie Fisher, Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Lupita Nyong’o, Oscar Isaac, Domhnall Gleeson, Anthony Daniels, Gwendoline Christie, and Andy Serkis. New cast members will include Academy Award winner Benicio Del Toro, Academy Award nominee Laura Dern, and newcomer Kelly Marie Tran.

The sequel is produced by Kathleen Kennedy and Ram Bergman and executive produced by J.J. Abrams, Jason McGatlin, and Tom Karnowski.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is scheduled for release in theaters on December 15, 2017.

I'm curious about how the "last Jedi" meaning will play out. I mean, "last" can have some subtly different meanings. If I buy a dozen donuts and consume eleven of them, the twelfth is the last donut, but the possibility exists that more donuts could be forthcoming. But the recipe for donuts is forgotten, and there can be no more after my dozen, then that twelfth donut is truly the last donut. (Please excuse me while I get out the scale, that's a lot of carbs.)

If Luke does not pass on what he has learned, then he's the twelfth and final donut, since there's no one left to teach the Jedi philosophy. This might not be a terrible thing; perhaps the Jedi philosophy really isn't the best way to go. I mean, the Sith philosophy is pretty bad, and results in corrupted practitioners, but going whole-hog and insisting that Force-wielders have to be completely passive and without attachment might have been a bridge too far, doomed to eventually fail. It isn't as though there are only two paths; it's just that we've only seen two, and both have failed spectacularly.