The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Locked
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 05:31am

Hopefully they'll extend the payment out past the 18th, since I doubt they'll be reopening for quite a while after that.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11021
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-28 05:50am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 05:31am
Hopefully they'll extend the payment out past the 18th, since I doubt they'll be reopening for quite a while after that.
According to the article Disney will be hit pretty hard by the coronavirus as they don't have some other business to fall back. We will have to see.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-28 06:14am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 08:36pm
This is also why I am unsympathetic to your claims that your working hours keep you from answering my questions. You seem to have the time to argue against things I haven't claimed, and perhaps that time might be better spent responding to things I have or, if you really don't have the time, resting and recovering. So, let me make it clear: I have no interest in discussion with you unless and until you are prepared to answer my questions and actually engage in a good faith discussion.
The problem here is that no matter what I answer you won't be satisfied with it.

So I have to ask - why do you keep replying to me at all?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 06:18am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-28 06:14am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-27 08:36pm
This is also why I am unsympathetic to your claims that your working hours keep you from answering my questions. You seem to have the time to argue against things I haven't claimed, and perhaps that time might be better spent responding to things I have or, if you really don't have the time, resting and recovering. So, let me make it clear: I have no interest in discussion with you unless and until you are prepared to answer my questions and actually engage in a good faith discussion.
The problem here is that no matter what I answer you won't be satisfied with it.

So I have to ask - why do you keep replying to me at all?
I'm not generally inclined to ignore people who reply to me. But you're right - if you refuse to answer, there's not much point. So I'll stop replying to you, and you do the same, and on our merry way we can go.
mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-28 05:50am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 05:31am
Hopefully they'll extend the payment out past the 18th, since I doubt they'll be reopening for quite a while after that.
According to the article Disney will be hit pretty hard by the coronavirus as they don't have some other business to fall back. We will have to see.
I know. But given a choice between seeing major corporations continue to pay employees at a deficit that may lead it to some hard times or lay them off, I'd prefer the former - at least until the unemployment schmozzle and depression are resolved.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-28 06:51am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 01:12am
By the relative rates of disease, poverty, and access to infrastructure across that community, coupled with the likely impacts and ease of transmission of an outbreak, dude. This isn't complex or unprecedented stuff. Do you have any evidence that New York's population is more vulnerable than that of remote and regional Indigenous communities?
Transmission of any communicable disease is facilitated by population density, which is a form of crowding.

Population density of the Navajo nation: 5 people/square km
Population density of New York City: 10,194 people/square km

In that respect yes, the people of New York City are at higher risk of covid-19 than the Navajo.

Of course, it's not the only factor to consider, but it definitely is one because conronaviruses love population density.

I'm also curious where you stand regarding the wealthier Native groups vs. those that are poorer. The Cherokee Nation, for example, is a very different place than Navajo country. This letter from the prinicipal chief of the Cherokee nation outlines not only how the Cherokee are helping themselves, but that they also able to help themselves and have resources that, for example, the infamous Pine Ridge Sioux Reservation which is the poorest of the Native reservations and, by your standards, it should be prioritized over the Navajo. The people there are poorer, sicker, their culture is more threatened, there are fewer speakers of the language (169,000 native speakers of Navajo vs. 30,000 speakers of Sioux), and so forth.

I am not as conversant as you with the original inhabitant groups of your nation as you are, but from little I know they are in even worse situations than the Native Americans and, unlike in the US where you have a handful that actually have some real resources, a modicum of wealth, their own schools, an age range of native speakers instead of just elderly, and a standard of living above destitute poverty. Which is not to diminish all the remaining problems but clearly not on is the situation of Native cultures in the US variable among each other, but different that what prevails in Australia.

Personally, I'm glad I don't have to actually make life-and-death-and-triage decisions.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 06:56am

Christ almighty, Broomstick. Stop replying to my posts and asking for more detail on my positions when you, by your own admission, are unwilling to answer my questions and have an actual discussion.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-28 07:04am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 01:12am
If all lives have equal value, Jub, then those that have been put at special risk deserve special protection.
What happens when society is not longer able to offer special protection? Or even ordinary protection.

The US Federal government has fucked its response to this crisis. There is now mounting evidence that Trump is deliberately withholding aid to entire states whose governors he personally doesn't like. His is on video as stating that he has told Pence NOT to phone or speak with the governor of Washington state at all. Not only will he not even give Governor Whitmer the dignity of a name, referring to her as "that woman from Michigan", there is now indication that he is acting to have orders she places for PPE for her medical system to be canceled or sent to the Federal government instead. Then there's the on-going back-and-forth between Trump and Cuomo, who is arguably one of the more powerful and influential governors in the nation.

In the midst of a crisis where the PotUS is working to deny aid to entire states based on politics and personal petty dislikes, where not only aid is not being sent but efforts by the states to help themselves are being deliberately crippled... we are, in the US, getting closer to a state of affairs where no one is going to get help or protection from the government over vast swathes of North America.

Trump is seeing this pandemic as an opportunity to get back at, to have revenge on, those people he sees having having wronged him personally either by not kissing his ass or not voting for him or being for the "enemy" party. He does not care that this will kill people.

If Cuomo, who is in charge of the world's twelfth largest economy and literally has his own army in the form of the New York State National Guard, is the site of both the United Nations headquarters and the New York Stock Exchange that Trump worships, struggles get help from the US Federal government... we are fucked. We are all well and truly fucked. Whether or not the Feds are able to provide help, it is becoming more and more apparent that Trump is unwilling to provide help. Because he's that much of a monster.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-28 07:07am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 06:56am
Christ almighty, Broomstick. Stop replying to my posts and asking for more detail on my positions when you, by your own admission, are unwilling to answer my questions and have an actual discussion.
If you are having that much problem with me either

1) Take it to the mods if I'm breaking a rule, or
2) Ignore me entirely.

I have just as much right to comment on your posts as anyone else. Nor do I respond to each and every one, I skip quite a few. You don't like my answers? Tough. You don't like that I respond to you at all? Tough. You don't like that I'm in this thread at all? Tough.

You do not have the authority to tell me to shut up, or that I can't be in the very thread I started. Which, as usual when you show up, has turned into the Oppressed Natives Thread instead of the original topic, which was the pandemic in general.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 07:15am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-28 07:07am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 06:56am
Christ almighty, Broomstick. Stop replying to my posts and asking for more detail on my positions when you, by your own admission, are unwilling to answer my questions and have an actual discussion.
If you are having that much problem with me either

1) Take it to the mods if I'm breaking a rule, or
2) Ignore me entirely.

I have just as much right to comment on your posts as anyone else. Nor do I respond to each and every one, I skip quite a few. You don't like my answers? Tough. You don't like that I respond to you at all? Tough. You don't like that I'm in this thread at all? Tough.

You do not have the authority to tell me to shut up, or that I can't be in the very thread I started. Which, as usual when you show up, has turned into the Oppressed Natives Thread instead of the original topic, which was the pandemic in general.
Broomstick. I posted news, and you're the one who decided to make that into a debate around whether vulnerable communities need more aid - in other words, you are the one who took it into the 'Oppressed Natives Thread' away from the topic of the pandemic. You don't want to answer my questions, which is your right, but to then immediately ask me to answer yours when I have made it very clear I am uninterested in doing so as a result is fucked. Stop expecting me to dedicate my time to respond to you if you're unwilling to do the same. It's unwelcome and verging on vendetta shit, and I'll consider it as such going forth.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-28 07:21am

Back to the original topic...

Three of my coworkers are in quarantine. The 32 year old son of one of my friends has been a ventilator for three days now because of covid - no prior health risks or concerns, a healthy guy in his 30's who now has at best a 50/50 chance of survival. The local ICU's are already full. My county's diagnosed cases are in the early part of the exponential curve.

I have undoubtedly been exposed at this point. Given how many hundreds of people I see on a daily basis at work there's no way I haven't been. So... at this point it's a matter of working until I finally start showing symptoms because there's no testing for anyone who isn't actually sick at this point. Which means at this point most of the people with the virus are still asymptomatic but also still spreading it if they go out in public at all.

Half the people I set up as part of my own safety net are either in quarantine are actually sick. None are in the official statistics because they don't "qualify" for use of the limited number of tests available.

I have written out the instructions for care of my parrots in the event I am no longer able to do so. On my next day not at work - either due to actually getting a day off or being sick enough to quarantine - I'll be getting back to my lawyer as to what I can do over the phone/internet to set up an advanced directive, medical and financial proxies, and what sort of will I might need/be able to get. This is complicated by the fact that my current person for all that is my-sister-the-doctor... who lives in New York State and is already working 14 hour days. She's even less likely to survive this being older and with long-standing severe cardiac disease. So I need to set up an alternate pretty damn quick.

According to current knowledge I've got about a 30% chance of becoming ill enough from this shit to require a hospital.... by which time I expect the hospitals will be full. About 5% chance of death, but that's BEFORE the health system breaks down. Going by the current triage discussions, if ventilators run out I will not qualify for one.

I'm still going to work today because at this point it doesn't matter - it's almost certain I've already got the virus on board. I am going to get sick. I just hope it will be something I can ride out at home, because if it isn't by next week if I get sicker than that I'm not going to make it, the hospitals will be overwhelmed and I won't be on the list for those getting help by virtue of age and asthma.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 07:39am

Now this is fantastic news. Duke University are putting out a protocol for reliable, reusable, low-damage sterilization for N95 masks. Doesn't require anything unusual - just hydrogen peroxide - but it does need some specialized equipment. But, since the only apparent requirement is hydrogen peroxide vapour and a chamber capable of ensuring an even, controlled, and contained dispersion it might just be adaptable to other equipment.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 20997
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 07:45am

Supplies for states being redirected to the Federal government. Trump has meanwhile instructed Pence not to call State governors who aren't appropriately grovelling before him.

https://cnn.com/2020/03/27/politics/mic ... index.html
Washington, DC (CNN)Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer said in an interview Friday that her state is not getting the health and safety equipment needed to fight the spread of the novel coronavirus because contractors are sending their products to the federal government first.

Whitmer, a Democrat, said in an interview on CNN's "The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer" that her state's shipments of personal protective equipment are being "canceled" or "delayed."

"Well, we've entered into a number of contracts, and as we get closer to the date when shipments are supposed to come in, they are getting canceled -- getting delayed," Whitmer told Blitzer.

Whitmer said her state was notified that shipments of protective equipment such as face masks are going "first to the federal government" ahead of the states.

"I know Michigan is not alone. I saw Gov. Charlie Baker, Republican from Massachusetts, essentially say the same thing. Same thing with Mayor Garcetti out in Los Angeles. This is an issue we are confronting as a nation, where we are bidding against one another, where we are struggling to grab every PPE (personal protective equipment) we can get our hands on," she added.

Whitmer's comments came after she said in a local radio interview earlier on Friday that the federal government has been told not to send medical supplies to Michigan.

A Federal Emergency Management Agency spokesperson noted in an email to CNN that a shipment for medical supplies from the Strategic National Stockpile was last shipped to Michigan on March 22 and contained N95 respirator face masks, surgical masks, face shields, surgical gowns and gloves.

Whitmer has been catching the ire of President Donald Trump recently as the two spar over the appropriate response to the coronavirus outbreak.

Trump publicly criticized Whitmer in a phone call Thursday with Fox News for her "lack of response" to Covid-19.

"The governor of Michigan, she's not stepping up. I don't know if she knows what's going on but all she does is sit there and blame the federal government. She doesn't get it done and we send her a lot," Trump said in the Thursday night interview.

Trump repeated his criticisms of Whitmer on Friday during the daily coronavirus press briefing.

He repeatedly referred to Whitmer as "the woman in Michigan" and said he wants the governors in the US to appreciate the work he and other federal officials are putting into fighting the outbreak. At one point, Trump said he has told Vice President Mike Pence not to call Whitmer and other governors who have been critical of the federal government.

"He calls all the governors -- I'm a different person. I say, 'Mike, don't call the governor of Washington, you're wasting your time with him. Don't call the woman in Michigan,'" Trump said, stating that he felt Whitmer and Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, another Democrat, will criticize him no matter what.

"You know what I say? If they don't treat you right, don't call. He's a different type of person. He'll call, quietly, anyway."

Inslee was quick to respond to Trump's comments from the briefing on Twitter Friday night, mentioning the need to move away from personal attacks and to policy to contain the viruses outbreak.

"I'm not going to let personal attacks from the president distract me from what matters: beating this virus and keeping Washingtonians healthy," he said.

This week, the number of coronavirus cases in Michigan skyrocketed to nearly 3,000 from fewer than 350 a week ago.

"This is part of why I am hopeful that in addition to the Defense Production Act, that we adopt a national strategy and really focus on ramping up, especially where we see the growth so fast," Whitmer told Blitzer.

CNN's Lauren Fox, Jeremy Herb, Daniella Diaz, Jasmine Wright and Ali Zaslav contributed to this story.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 07:51am

Do we know if those contractors are located within Michigan or external to it?
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29499
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-28 08:12am

I'd like to tell you about how Chinese Military Police hunted down escapees from Wuhan all over China.

Wait what? I didn't mean escapees from Wuhan. I meant New York, and I meant the Rhode Island National Guard

#MR_FRIENDLY_GUY

Rhode Island Police to Hunt Down New Yorkers Seeking Refuge
Rhode Island Police to Hunt Down New Yorkers Seeking Refuge
By Prashant Gopal and Brian K Sullivan
March 27, 2020, 5:14 PM EDT

Rhode Island police began stopping cars with New York plates Friday. On Saturday, the National Guard will help them conduct house-to-house searches to find people who traveled from New York and demand 14 days of self-quarantine.

“Right now we have a pinpointed risk,” Governor Gina Raimondo said. “That risk is called New York City.”

New York is the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S., on Friday reporting a total of 44,000 cases.

Rhode Island has just over 200, and it has begun an aggressive campaign to keep the virus out and New Yorkers contained, over objections from civil liberties advocates.

Raimondo, a Democrat, said she had consulted lawyers and said while she couldn’t close the border, she felt confident she could enforce a quarantine.

Seaside Retreat

Many New Yorkers have summer houses in Rhode Island, especially in tony Newport, and the governor said the authorities would be checking there.

“Yesterday I announced and today I reiterated: Anyone coming to Rhode Island in any way from New York must be quarantined,” the governor said. “By order. Will be enforced. Enforceable by law.”

Raimondo signed an executive order Thursday that applies to anyone who has been in New York during the past two weeks and through at least April 25. It doesn’t apply to public health, public safety, or health-care workers.

White House Calls For 14-Day Quarantine For All Leaving New York

National Guard members will be stationed at the T.F. Green airport, Amtrak train stations and at bus stops. The citizen-soldiers will be following up with people at local residences. The maximum penalty for not complying: a fine of $500 and 90 days in prison.

The local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union blasted the new rules, objecting to the collection of motorists’ contact information in particular.

“While the Governor may have the power to suspend some state laws and regulations to address this medical emergency, she cannot suspend the Constitution,” Rhode Island ACLU executive director Steven Brown said in a statement. “Under the Fourth Amendment, having a New York state license plate simply does not, and cannot, constitute ‘probable cause’ to allow police to stop a car and interrogate the driver, no matter how laudable the goal of the stop may be.”

Police Stops

Just before 1 p.m. Friday, state police were set up on Interstate 95 northbound, at the rest stop closest to the Connecticut border. A mile or two before that, motorists could see signs ordering all New York passenger vehicles to pull over at the rest stop.

One trooper could be seen there, checking license plates as cars went by. At the stop itself, a number of officers were assembled around a tent, ready to question vehicle occupants.
— With assistance by Tom Moroney, and Robert Langreth
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 08:21am

"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8409
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Ace Pace » 2020-03-28 08:42am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 08:21am
Our private hospitals are threatening to shut down over the elective surgery ban. I'm in the nationalize the bastards camp.
Nationalize all the healthcare sector. It's pretty amazing that people refuse to understand that in a crisis they need to change.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 08:48am

Ace Pace wrote:
2020-03-28 08:42am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 08:21am
Our private hospitals are threatening to shut down over the elective surgery ban. I'm in the nationalize the bastards camp.
Nationalize all the healthcare sector. It's pretty amazing that people refuse to understand that in a crisis they need to change.
I don't know if we could manage to pull off a total nationalization - the political will in this country for that is unthinkably distant given our shitlord cabinet - but the ones demanding money from the country to stay open have just set bargaining terms for a buy-out (or at the least, a demand for a share of ownership) as far as I'm concerned. Ireland's move might help set the table for that, though unfortunately they're limiting it to the duration of the crisis.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3843
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-28 09:07am

The relief package for First Nations communities in Canada is totally inadequate, apparently. The combination of pandemic and major flooding some of the communities are facing is especially troubling - it's hard enough keeping the Vid at bay with intact infrastructure. Trying to do so in the aftermath of a major flood would be a true nightmare.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11021
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-28 10:39am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-28 08:12am
I'd like to tell you about how Chinese Military Police hunted down escapees from Wuhan all over China.
Wait what? I didn't mean escapees from Wuhan. I meant New York, and I meant the Rhode Island National Guard
#MR_FRIENDLY_GUY
Obviously the escapees weren't Snake Plisten. Or am I am getting my 80s movies mixed up. :D
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11021
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-28 10:51am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-28 08:48am

I don't know if we could manage to pull off a total nationalization - the political will in this country for that is unthinkably distant given our shitlord cabinet - but the ones demanding money from the country to stay open have just set bargaining terms for a buy-out (or at the least, a demand for a share of ownership) as far as I'm concerned. Ireland's move might help set the table for that, though unfortunately they're limiting it to the duration of the crisis.
Since the states control the hospitals and the Federal government controls medicare (and via it GP funding) you can imagine the how can I put it, "argy bargy" :D that's going to go on here. From my understanding individual states can cancel elective surgery, but then they don't necessarily have the money to pay these private staff. The Federal government might have, but will be reluctant since it will affect their budget. What we might find is "cost shifting."

Basically for non Australians or those not familiar with our health system, the Federal government funds certain medical tasks, the states some others. Some of them do sort of intersect, so cost shifting can occur when one branch of the the government pays for another branch. For example, a patient who is hospitalised and then discharge. Normally the hospital supplies a few days of a new medication they started the patient on, the patient goes to their GP to get the rest of the medications (especially if its something they need for life), and those medications are paid by the patient, but subsidised by the federal government.

Another one is when doctors in a state funded institution wants to use a drug "off label" and the federal government won't subsidise it because of this, which makes it expensive for the patient, so that facility will supply it, and it comes out of state government funds.

In the above case of nationalisting hospitals, we have to ask A) do the states still run it and B) can the states afford it, or do they need the Federal government's help and c) if that happens, the Federal government is going to ask to get involve running a hospital, a task traditionally since WWII assign to the states. You can imagine the fights that is going to happen between the states and the Federal government.

Not saying its not possible to nationalise, but boy is it going to be messy.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 20997
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 12:48pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-28 10:39am
MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-28 08:12am
I'd like to tell you about how Chinese Military Police hunted down escapees from Wuhan all over China.
Wait what? I didn't mean escapees from Wuhan. I meant New York, and I meant the Rhode Island National Guard
#MR_FRIENDLY_GUY
Obviously the escapees weren't Snake Plisten. Or am I am getting my 80s movies mixed up. :D
You authoritarianism fanboys sure are loving this, aren't you?

But authoritarian methods have no better track record here than democracy overall (I do not count the US response in either camp, as America is currently a semi-democracy making the transition to dictatorship, and its greatest failures have been due in more or less equal parts to the greed of the capitalist free market and the self-serving autocratic leanings of the "President"). The Chinese government cracked down on early reporting of the crisis, Iran under-reported its numbers, and as noted above, Trump's authoritarian approach has made the situation worse at almost every turn. While we may have to accept temporary restrictions on freedom of movement, most core democratic rights pose little obstacle to an effective coronavirus response. Our coronavirus response will not be severely impaired by freedom of expression or free elections (thank God for the internet and the mail ballot). What does have to go is unfettered free enterprise, the capitalist economic system. What is needed is an organized economic and political response which puts collective welfare ahead of profits. Ie, socialism, which, fear-mongering of the Right aside, is no more inherently despotic than any other form of government- (indeed I would argue that since socialism is essentially defined as control of the economy by the people, not by an elite few, only democratic socialism can truly and consistently be considered socialism- authoritarian socialism is an inherently contradictory and hypocritical system, by definition).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5735
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm
Location: YHM

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by J » 2020-03-28 12:54pm

French study on Hydroxychloroquine. It appears to work well at reducing viral loads.
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/ ... I_IJAA.pdf

Excerpt:
Background
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have been found to be efficient on SARS-CoV-2, and reported to be efficient in Chinese COV-19 patients. We evaluate the role of hydroxychloroquine on respiratory viral loads.

Patients and methods
French Confirmed COVID-19 patients were included in a single arm protocol from early March to March 16th, to receive 600mg of hydroxychloroquine daily and their viral load in nasopharyngeal swabs was tested daily in a hospital setting. Depending on their clinical presentation, azithromycin was added to the treatment. Untreated patients from another center and cases refusing the protocol were included as negative controls. Presence and absence of virus at Day6-post inclusion was considered the end point.

Results
Six patients were asymptomatic, 22 had upper respiratory tract infection symptoms and eight had lower respiratory tract infection symptoms. Twenty cases were treated in this study and showed a significant reduction of the viral carriage at D6-post inclusion compared to controls, and much lower average carrying duration than reported of untreated patients in the literature. Azithromycin added to hydroxychloroquine was significantly more efficient for virus elimination

Conclusion
Despite its small sample size our survey shows that hydroxychloroquine treatment is significantly associated with viral load reduction/disappearance in COVID-19 patients and its effect is reinforced by azithromycin.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker

User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7569
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 » 2020-03-28 01:00pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:48pm
You authoritarianism fanboys sure are loving this, aren't you?

But authoritarian methods have no better track record here than democracy overall (I do not count the US response in either camp, as America is currently a semi-democracy making the transition to dictatorship, and its greatest failures have been due in more or less equal parts to the greed of the capitalist free market and the self-serving autocratic leanings of the "President"). The Chinese government cracked down on early reporting of the crisis, Iran under-reported its numbers, and as noted above, Trump's authoritarian approach has made the situation worse at almost every turn. While we may have to accept temporary restrictions on freedom of movement, most core democratic rights pose little obstacle to an effective coronavirus response. Our coronavirus response will not be severely impaired by freedom of expression or free elections (thank God for the internet and the mail ballot). What does have to go is unfettered free enterprise, the capitalist economic system. What is needed is an organized economic and political response which puts collective welfare ahead of profits. Ie, socialism, which, fear-mongering of the Right aside, is no more inherently despotic than any other form of government- (indeed I would argue that since socialism is essentially defined as control of the economy by the people, not by an elite few, only democratic socialism can truly and consistently be considered socialism- authoritarian socialism is an inherently contradictory and hypocritical system, by definition).
I don't think freedom of expression has really made much difference at all in containing the spread. If anything, it allowed Fox News and co to downplay the threat in the US. Containing outbreaks has never really been an issue of whether people have the right to speak up, but much rather can the people speaking up get the authorities and the populace at large to take it seriously. Right now, almost every form of political system has failed in some regards.

The bigger issue right now is getting people to listen to what the experts are saying.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29499
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-28 01:05pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-28 10:39am
Obviously the escapees weren't Snake Plisten. Or am I am getting my 80s movies mixed up. :D
Image

Meanwhile, in China cell phones are used to track people for future compliance.

No wait, I mean Los Angeles! :D :angelic: :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kf7ldpaHTw

During an interview with CNN's Chris Cuomo [segment @14:19 to 14:28] Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti discussing the ‘stay-at-home’ order says (emphasis mine):

…”but this has been marvelously embraced by 99.9 percent of people; we see it in the traffic data, we see it in the cell phone data; but we’re going to hunt down that last point-one percent and say: ‘you’ve gotta get inside, you gotta cut it out, and you gotta distance”…
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3820
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Formless » 2020-03-28 04:34pm

J wrote:
2020-03-28 12:54pm
French study on Hydroxychloroquine. It appears to work well at reducing viral loads.
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/ ... I_IJAA.pdf
For everyone who didn't know where Trump got his snake oil sales pitch, THIS is where its coming from. This study has multiple design flaws including but NOT limited to:

1. Small sample size. Its only got 20 people in its final analysis. That might not be unusual for a study done in such a hurry, but there is another study I will get to that doesn't have this problem.

2. Attrition bias. Did I say it has a sample of 20? Well, that should be 26, but 6 of them were dropped from the final analysis. Why? Well, two of them were made so nauseous from the drug that they stopped taking it, and the condition of the other four only worsened to the point they also couldn't continue with the study. In fact, one of them died, an example of literal attrition. ANY analysis that leaves out the six people who stopped taking the drug, and in particular the four whose conditions worsened and ESPECIALLY the one who died, is at best incomplete. At worst, its an omission.

3. The participants in the study were not selected randomly. It could have been, but the principle author has gone on record as not believing in randomized trials ON PRINCIPLE. This man isn't a moron, rather as I will get to, he lacks basic integrity.

4. Related to point 3, the control group is entirely made up of young people. The experimental group is not. Since young people are more likely to get better regardless of treatment, this means you cannot meaningfully compare the experimental group to the control group even though that's kinda the whole point of having a control group. Notably, the principle author has done studies in the past that entirely lacks a control group, so this flaw shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows his history.

5. The study went on for 14 days. The analysis only covers the first 6. Numerous people have been asking what happened for the last 8 days of the study; did they get sicker? Did they get better? It doesn't say.

6. The test used to prove that the viral load was lessened by the treatment has been called into question by people who know a whole lot more about this than I do. Essentially, the study's own data suggests false positives to people who understand the statistics, and that suggests the possibility of false negatives as well. The equipment just isn't sensitive enough.

7. Moreover, the method used (PCR) didn't even look at whether the symptoms were lessened or whether the disease progressed. It certainly doesn't look at things like viral shedding and other technical stuff I barely understand. The study's authors even exclude openly any data about whether it has clinical benefits at all, the focus is solely on viral load as if that means anything to health care professionals who understand what's really going on in the study. There are other studies that apparently use completely different methods to get completely contradictory results, apparently CAT scans of the lungs show that Chloroquine does not halt the disease's progression. That's a bad thing.

8. At least two of the patients that did make it into the final analysis weren't even analyzed with the same testing tool, that is, they weren't tested with PCR at all. Same goes for some of the patients in the control group. You CANNOT include patients with different tests in the same experimental study. That isn't how an experiment works! Different tests have different sensitivities, potentially different results, and to give two patients out of twenty a different test obviously makes the study internally inconsistent. You don't need an education on research methodology to figure that one out.

Look, as Better Science points out, there are three integrity problems with this study. First, it isn't peer-reviewed, or was reviewed in such a hurry (24 hours) that the quality control of said review is questionable at best. Second, the reason the peer review is shit isn't because they were in a hurry to get something published, its more likely due to the fact that one of the article's authors (though not its principle author) is also the journal's editor. Obviously that's a conflict of interest, and thus an ethical problem for the publisher. But third is, as you can guess from statements I've already made, the principle author, Didier Raoult, a climate change denialist, denialist of Darwinian evolution, misogynist piece of shit who has numerous accusations against him by grad students of both genders (making it rather hard to deny he's an asshole either way), and a proven liar. I would imagine the denialism of climate change and evolution would speak for itself, but the lying is the real issue. The journal American Society for Microbiology (ASM) actually banned him and four of his coauthors for a year in 2006 after they discovered fabricated data in one of their submissions, and even though the lead authors of that study (not Raoult) claimed it was an innocent mistake and took ownership of it, the journal's ethics board still had them all banned for a year. Raoult's response? To throw a hissy fit, leave every institution related to the American Academy of Microbiology and say he would have sued them if he were in the states. For what I have no idea, as he's fooling himself if he thinks he can win a slander lawsuit in this country. But that's not hte only evidence he is a liar, there are also multiple articles he has published in the past that show data forgery, most of it in the form of photoshopped images like glass stains. For Bette Science (linked above in point 3) has the images so you can see for yourself how bad it gets; fractal bacteria! Seriously, it would be hilarious what he's gotten away with, if it weren't infuriating that this crap has gotten him so much fame.

Meanwhile China has been studying this stuff's effectiveness against COVID-19 for longer than he has (because its not like Chloroquine based drugs are so esoteric it would take a supposed expert on tropical infections to realize you could try this) and their studies have shown no effect in treating the disease. Theirs is, I believe (I unfortunately cannot read chinese, but those who can are free to read the study linked to by Forbes), the study that used CAT scans to show the disease still progressing after day 6 despite Raoult's results. That or it was a study done in Singapore, but I'm having difficulty finding any information that isn't about Raoult's fucking study through the normal means; even Wikipedia has been infected with his bullshit. At best, Chloroquine is potentially good for treating a condition called Cytokine Storm that can be caused by COVID-19 and is absolutely deadly, but there is no trustworthy evidence that it fights the virus itself. That's just pure snake oil salesmanship right now, and its having a demonstrable harm on people either stupid enough to self dose, or people who actually need Chloroquine for other diseases who have suddenly found their supply run dry, like the woman with Lupis discussed in an earlier article. Even Trump's own aid has gone on record that its too early and dangerous to endorse the stuff as a treatment without proper evidence, and Raoult's work certainly doesn't qualify.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

Locked