StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I rationalised it as those colonies were mostly established for use as foregin bases and grew because they discovered valuable resources. There weren't many natives in the first place. By the time the war came there wasn't much distinction between Britonian and native. We gave them a message saying "You have one year to leave before we level these cities. If you aren't gone by then, tough luck."

Uh, why wouldn't there be? Britonia was not likely to be very assimilationist in its colonies.

Or is this just something you definitely want in your background? If so, where did the new population come from?

You're right, there would still be a difference.. But the main element of "banishing the colonies population elsewhere" is a big element I would like to keep, since it will no doubt affect other nearby NPC's reaction to Orion, and our general attitude to warfare: there's no sense risking Orion lives merely to annex territroy we don't actually need, but if it's for a cause, to destroy an aggressor, then we're all in.

Honestly, looking at the sheer size of those countries you're indicating, I can't see Orion being capable of such an expansive depopulation campaign. I mean, if you expelled the Britonian populations, maybe coastal ones heavily integrated, in common cause with interior ethnic groups that weren't "complicit", that makes more sense. But even threatening to bomb them to rubble won't work against a heavily rural population since there's just too much land to cover.

Steve wrote:I mean, if you expelled the Britonian populations, maybe coastal ones heavily integrated, in common cause with interior ethnic groups that weren't "complicit", that makes more sense.

Ok, I'll go with that. That also lets me set up mining operations with the cooperation of the original ethnic groups, and gradually turn them into vassal states, perhaps even form a United Kingdom of Orion and etc.

Be prepared for resistance with full on annexation or something similar. Especially if you're planning that for three different NPCs.

And the more effort you pour into holding one section of the continent, the harder it'll probably be for you to exert influence over other areas.

Yeah, annexation of three NPCs, all valuable ones? Way too much.

Steve wrote:Looking at the list again, 28 and 29 wouldn't be former Omnian. Isn't 28 the one that Thanas and Jub were discussing for ex-Dresigrondian and ex-Rheinlander?

Indeed.

I can see it once being two parts, one for each country, but with the same ethnic groups who decided to merge into one nation after they got independence.

Jub and I have both stated we would prefer it to be two seperate nations.

Hence why I said it's a potential option. At present, those colonies are once again the nations of the indigenous peoples, although they kept the names for some reason. We enjoy friendly relations and trade agreements with them. There has been talk of closer alliances but nothing concrete as yet. They retain limited military capability, mostly older hardware sold to them by us.

I see.

And doi, sorry Thanas.

Is that acceptable?

Yeah, makes more sense. Expulsion of the Britonians and heavily Britonized tribes on the coast in favor of locals. Considered a terrible war crime (ethnic cleansing), but ignored since, well, the Britonians were the "bad guys" of the war.

Oh, and, Nation 3, my other ex-colony? I've decided to name it Patagonia for ironical reasons. Namely, 1) It's the actual Patagonian tip pointed northwest instead of south and 2) the brief, unrecognized Kingdom of Araucanía and Patagonia had a tricolor flag of green-white-blue just like the Cascadian tricolor, but without a fir tree.

What happened to the Britonians? Did they all move to Westrheinland (former Britonia) or did they get killed? Because that is something we have not explored yet.

Those in the former colonies near me were expelled as refugees, so they could have gone anywhere.

Yeah, I get that, what I am saying is that we should think about where they ended up.

KlavoHunter wrote:Though with San Dorado having a major stake in 11, that means there's probably some Special Economic Zones for them, but also the friction and pressure of potential nationalization of the companies if push comes to shove.

I'm hesitant to make it into a (yet another) full-fledged commie state with special economic zones. Could it be that the previous oligarchic kleptocracy was overthrow by a heavily socialist Chávez-ish figure? His revolution in fact had the blessing and support of San Doradan interests because the kleptocrats were neglecting infrastructure and requiring ever increasing bribes to the point where they actually made it difficult to do business at all.

Now this newly empowered socialist figure has to balance his constituency's demand for reform and calls from his newfound Klavostani buddies overseas to throw the capitalists out of the country with the gentle but firm reminders from the shady men in suits that if he/she wants the nation to not go under completely then better work with the megacorporations. Oh and also you owe us for that gear and those military advisors we supplied your revolutionaries...

EDIT:

Thanas wrote:Yeah, I get that, what I am saying is that we should think about where they ended up.

This touches on something I dreamt up the other day but haven't brought up yet: maybe in the weeks leading up to the final collapse of their nation the Britonians had an ODESSA type organization that helped commanders, bomber pilots and assorted war criminals escape the crumbling empire? Maybe those people run an underground organization that survives to this day. Necessitating, of course, that there be various people hunting that underground down.

I have an idea for one character whose family is supposed to have fled to San Dorado in the final days of the war, and whose parents are strongly implied to have had less than squeaky clean hands. Possibly one or the both of them ended up in a mysterious carcrash or a 'shaving accident' suspected to have been the work of Rheinland assassins?

Could be another interesting story hook, I think.

Thanas wrote:Yeah, I get that, what I am saying is that we should think about where they ended up.

Perhaps one of the NPC's on the continent near Orion.

EDIT: there was at least one other colony there aside from the 3 I fought. Perhaps that one became their refuge?

I haven't come up for a formal name for "New Britonia", but I suspect it received some exiles. Even Cascadia proper might have due to having the same language, even if Britonian-Cascadian relations had never been better than frostily-cordial over the two centuries plus between Cascadian independence and the collapse of Britonia.

I'm pondering whether the Cascadians would have permitted New Britonia to vote on restoring the monarchy or not. Presuming any heirs got out of Britonia before Rheinland cut them off utterly.

Thanas wrote:What happened to the Britonians? Did they all move to Westrheinland (former Britonia) or did they get killed? Because that is something we have not explored yet.

Actually, I was thinking the population flow would be the other way around. Why would they go back to a country that is treated as a war trophy, which has had its name legally stripped (or do you allow the people from there to defiantly call themselves Britonia still?), and which is apparently an economic colony where the manufacturing is mostly from main Rheinland sources and most jobs are agriculture? Actually, what kind of status were you planning for the island and anything like Britonian independence movements?

Arcadia would likely allow refugees in (probably some story potential there actually...especially if a royal showed up in the nearest 'neutral' Kingdom). While I'm currently saying we supported Rheinland in the war (economically most likely), that doesn't mean refugees wouldn't be allowed when it became clear Britonia would cease to exist as a nation.

EDIT: In fact, the more I think about it the more fun that sounds. Support Rheinland economically, but still allow Britionian refugees (up to and including Royals if Thanas doesn't have them all captured/otherwise removed). Trade partners with Orion, who hate Britonia...yet we still have a, potentially, large population of Britonian exiles. Yeah...that could be fun.

San Dorado doesn't have any immigration restrictions, it's trivially easy to change your identity and it's easy to get lost in the chaos.

Siege wrote:This touches on something I dreamt up the other day but haven't brought up yet: maybe in the weeks leading up to the final collapse of their nation the Britonians had an ODESSA type organization that helped commanders, bomber pilots and assorted war criminals escape the crumbling empire? Maybe those people run an underground organization that survives to this day. Necessitating, of course, that there be various people hunting that underground down.

I have an idea for one character whose family is supposed to have fled to San Dorado in the final days of the war, and whose parents are strongly implied to have had less than squeaky clean hands. Possibly one or the both of them ended up in a mysterious carcrash or a 'shaving accident' suspected to have been the work of Rheinland assassins?

Could be another interesting story hook, I think.

Rheinland generally does not conduct assassination missions. The Schwarzer Haufen or the Rheinland Geheimdienst are the only ones who are capable of doing so (discounting other military special forces) in foreign nations. I'd prefer it if the country didn't go all Israel on people who fled. Rheinland would have demanded extraction but we would not have violated the sovereignty of others, especially not considering the country was not in the mood for another war.

One thing that might have happened is that some wealthy noble house or business clan hired some San Dorado company to take their revenge but certainly no official or unofficial Rheinland state action.

Steve wrote:

Thanas wrote:What happened to the Britonians? Did they all move to Westrheinland (former Britonia) or did they get killed? Because that is something we have not explored yet.

Actually, I was thinking the population flow would be the other way around. Why would they go back to a country that is treated as a war trophy, which has had its name legally stripped (or do you allow the people from there to defiantly call themselves Britonia still?), and which is apparently an economic colony where the manufacturing is mostly from main Rheinland sources and most jobs are agriculture? Actually, what kind of status were you planning for the island and anything like Britonian independence movements?

Yes, we allow them to call themselves what they want, which is why (as I wrote in my political system post) we got the radical Britonian Independence Party getting 5% of total population votes of Rheinland. Of course, the official state agencies call them citizens of Westrheinland. As to the status of the Island, it is split into several districts like Rheinland itself, so not different from Rheinland proper. In recent age it has become part of outsourcing, but clearly hasn't reached the status of full state yet. Independence movements both radical and non-radical are present (like I said, at least 20 of the 60 mil Britonians supported it) but they haven't won a majority yet (and the Rheinland public would never allow an independent Britonia again, at least not now. Maybe that will change in game).

I'm pondering whether the Cascadians would have permitted New Britonia to vote on restoring the monarchy or not. Presuming any heirs got out of Britonia before Rheinland cut them off utterly.

Hardly, considering the Island was under nearly total blockade. Maybe one or two subs got out but for the most part they got blockaded (think WWI level blockade of Germany). If the Royals were cowards they might have escaped but I can't imagine that leading to much support for them and it would have probably collapsed the home morale so I don't think they fled.

As to what happened to them, all nobles, politicians, business, academic and military leaders got prosecuted alongside each Briton. The ones who had opposed the bomber war were let go, the ones who did not or had otherwise committed war crimes were sentenced to death,like I said. As the adult male Royals did not object and were at least willing figureheads, they were among the latter and their high rank did not allow for the pardon. So into the river they went as one of the 300 convicted to drown and eventually become food for the river eels. The names of the 300 were erased from memory as old Rheinland custom dictates.

Children and women were of course not prosecuted, but they and all the pardoned nobles had their titles and possessions revoked and were exiled into the south of Reinland, living there as commoners among their victims. I'd imagine some of them were restored after showing true remorse and/or having lived exemplary lives, as well as some compassionate releases later on.

The title king/queen/prince of Britonia is now a subsidary title of the Rheinland Imperial house, as all the other titles that were revoked and not restored are. They are however never taken by any Rheinland royal as their personal title because they are commonly known as the blood titles (recent research about the sordid colonial Briton past has only reinforced that notion). This is unlike the Francian nobility, which were integrated via Royal union between the hereditary Princess of Francia and the King of Rheinland. Thus Francian titles are considered equal to Rheinland titles (and before the war Südrheinland was the richest of all Rheinland regions).

Rheinland considers anybody claiming such titles a declaration of war as it would be legitimizing the Britonian actions per default.

The last person who did so was made to swim the river and survived only due to the mercy of a passing dolphin. He then became a leading priest in the old Rheinland religion.
(Rheinlanders are about a quarter worshipping the Dolphin and whale, a quarter worshipping abrahamic religions, a quarter atheists/agnostics/other religions and a quarter buddhists/shintoists)

Dreisgrond would also have been rather open to taking in the Britonian diaspora, it's entirely possible that we have a rather large minority of them.

Tianguo would have taken in Britonian refugees.