brianeyci wrote:Mal_Reynolds wrote:Can you explain how it's false logic? It sounds to me like you're just imposing a double-standard, and nothing else.
So you're one of those eye for an eye dumbasses huh.
No, I'm one of those, "You break the law, you get punished." types, and furthermore one of those, "You send soldiers across our border and shoot at our border patrol agents, we send gunships over yours and bomb the pants-pissing
fuck out of you until you learn better." types.
First of all the Mexicans shooting illegal immigrants on their Southern border doesn't mean the US should shoot Mexican citizens who have nothing to do with their government's policy. Innocent people.
This is the part you just
will not seem to understand. There is a
legal method these people can undertake to immigrate here.
They choose to come illegally. They are
not innocent once they've made that choice.
So it's not exactly eye for an eye, what you're proposing is like punishing a murderer's family member for his murder.
No, it's not like eye for an eye -- it's more like, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." since you're in love with trite little figures of speech. And you have yet to answer this head-on, by the way -- why should America
not enforce its borders as stringently as every other country on the planet?
And why can't they? Why should our border security be any weaker than any other country's, and I especially want you to tell me how you can justify your defense of a country that strictly enforces its own borders while simultaneously encouraging and actively assisting its citizens in the violation of ours.
Do I really need to explain that you do not sink to the level of the people you call immoral.
The fuck you don't if you want to survive. Jesus.
Maybe you believe in Gitmo too. Using your logic if your neighbour shoots somebody else you are justified in shooting the neighbour's sister who had nothing to do with the murder.
No, using my logic, if your neighbor breaks into your house and begins looting and threatening the safety of your family, you are fully within your right to repel that invader with deadly force.
How is this not an us vs. them issue? It certainly is from their perspective, or have you missed their president's, their citizens', and the recent protesters' attitude on the issue?
Us versus them is the mating call of republitards. You're with us or you're with the terrorists, great stuff there.
That's not "us vs. them" -- that's a false dilemma you're describing; this isn't. Don't ever talk to me about logic again until you have at least a rudimentary grasp of it.
Us versus them is the complete opposite of "we're all in this together" which is the appropriate counter argument to this anti-human rights bullshit.
Now
that is a False Dilemma -- you're proposing, it seems to me, that if we don't roll over, turn the other cheek and let our country be assraped,
we're the "bad guys."
By the way Mexicans are people and individual Mexicans should not be shot just because of their government's problems.
No, they should be shot if they violate our border illegally after being deported once.
NONE of them deserve it, and there's no need to deny them benefits if coming here illegally means a death sentence.
You mean murdering mostly unarmed non-violent people seeking a better life.
They're free to seek a better life here legally. If they choose not to, woe be it on them.
They deserve it because they're human beings and it's their right to have medical treatment and an education.
So what? Crackheads are human beings, does that mean they deserve to break into my house and take what they want?
And it takes time for first generation immigrants to get on their feet.
These. Are.
NOT. Immigrants.
Sure they are they're just illegal.
Hence... not... immigrants. Invaders.
And their children will be second generation citizens of the US.
That's something else that needs to end -- no more "anchor babies."
I bet that burns in your craw doesn't it.
What, that criminals come here and use pregnancy to con the system and screw Americans? Why would that bother me?
So fucking what?! Should I leave my doors and my car unlocked at night because it will help people?!
It'll help robbers who are out to steal your property to increase their wealth, most likely not desperate poor people who need medical services and education.
Same thing. They come here and
steal what they want, the only difference is in how the crime is committed.
But obviously you're going to gloss over the fact and say that a crime is a crime, even though there are different degrees of crime.
Different degrees don't make a crime be anything other than a crime, you're right on the money there.
I guess you must have hated Robin Hood when you were a kid.
No, but I never thought he was anything other than a thief.
NO! A LOSS! ALL OF IT! Jesus Christ, that's like saying, "Ah, I have a paper cut, why worry about this sucking chest wound?"!
No, it's not a loss, because more than 4.5 billion of that 10 billion figure is for education of immigrant children, citizens of the United States.
Anchor babies born to criminals for the
sole purpose of "legitimizing" they crime they had committed.
And the rest... medical bills, help people.
Let them get help in their own country, or immigrate to this country
legally.
And being people they deserve help.
No, they don't. No one deserves anything other than what they work for. These people, by coming here illegally, aren't working for it -- they're
stealing it.
The loss is not that significant and the US can absorb a cost of a few billion a year to help 3 million and countless undocumented millions of potential citizens.
No, it can't. Or have you not noticed the state of the economy?
ILLEGAL ALIENS RECEIVING TAXPAYER-SUPPORTED SERVICES IS FRAUD!
Still harping on the fraud aren't you. Why don't you figure out that the people receiving medical treatment are destitute poor people who put a miniscule burden on the economy and will return by having children who will become productive taxpaying members of society.
I honestly don't give a fuck how destitute, poor, heartwrenching, tear-jerking they are. I really fucking don't. I told you before, but you didn't get it -- save the pathos for someone it will work on. I can't be bothered to give a fuck. They
can come here legally -- those that don't deserve no sympathy from me, and they'll get none.
And they pay 1.7 billion in sales tax too, nearly half the medical cost once you take out the retarded incarceration and education figures.
Wow! They pay almost a quarter what they cost us! HOO BOY!
Ever heard of the greater good, universal human rights?
Yeah, I've heard of 'the greater good.' It's the main chorus to the sales pitch of every government that either slaughtered millions, destroyed itself or both, throughout human history.
Except the greater good I'm referring to is the UN Declaration of Human Rights that says that everybody has a right to medical treatment.
Then let the U.N. take them in! Oh, wait -- the U.N. doesn't do
fuck-all except make declarations!
Get that, a right not a privilege.
Then they have a right to it
in Mexico, not here. They don't have a right to a
fucking thing here.
That means that even if they do not pay tax they deserve it, so suck it. I bet it eats into you, paying those couple hundred a year for poor sand niggers.
For who? Mestizos aren't sand niggers. If you're looking for a racial slur, I would suggest, let's see... spics, beaners, wetbacks, cucarachas, taco-rockers, the very generic 'muds...' Sand niggers, though, is typically used to refer to non-Jewish Semites, otherwise known as Arabs. But maybe you know more about racist terminology than I do.
I'm an "asshole" who cares about my family, my community and my country. First.
But obviously not sand niggers.
Not first, no.
How? Are we supposed to stop them at the border and ask, "Say, are you here to sell drugs? Class III weapons? Got any plans for gang warfare? Rape? Murder? Bombings? I'm afraid we'll have to ask you lot to turn around and go the other way. And the rest of you? Just here to rot local economies by presenting unfair competition to Americans, while refusing to contribute to our culture? Rather just create Mexican colonies? Anyone here preach reconquista? Oh no, no, that's fine, go on in."?
No. Let me ask you a very basic question -- is it your opinion that these people are above the law? A simple yes or no will do.
First of all you stop the retarded war on drugs that's been hurting the US economy and incarceration--I bet that 1.4 billion incarceration will just disappear.
This isn't shaping up to be a yes or no answer, is it?
Then you tighten up border security without artillery or killing them and you make a work permit. That's the right way to go about it, not the stupid you're with us or you're with Osama bullshit.
No, I really think creating a neutral zone would be the single fastest way to do it. Mexico has already violated the terms of the treaty between our countries by encouraging invasion by their citizens and supporting that with their military assets. They can't win a war against us -- as you pointed out, they're "poor and destitute" -- and since we don't need to occupy more than our own border physically and monitor perhaps ten to fifteen miles in for this "neutral zone", the cost to establish and maintain real border security would be far less expensive and a far more justified application of our military assets than the middle eastern debacle we're mired in now.
Yes or no questions are more calling cards of republitards who want the debate framed in simplistic terms.
In other words, you're a little chicken shit who won't give a straight answer to a straight question. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.
The law is not always moral. Weed is illegal but harmless. Illegal immigrants who do not do major crimes and support themselves are harmless.
No, they're not. Show me
one example of an employer who hires illegals for legal wages, or who hires legal
and illegal employees for the same jobs. They
rot local economies while hemorrhaging state and federal economy. They are
not harmless even if they're nonviolent.
They commit a serious crime by coming here illegally in the first place.
Looking for a better life is the same as murder huh?
There's another false dilemma from you. No, it's not the same as murder -- it's the same as theft, and in many more cases than you seem to either know about or care to acknowledge, violent crime
is imported with illegal aliens.
Yes, I absolutely do. Creating a neutral zone (as it were) will force Mexico to solve its own problems without leeching America's economy, which is currently spreading those problems here. Let me make this perfectly clear -- I am an American. I believe America has every right to defend itself against a clear and present danger, which is what illegal immigration absolutely is, and against military aggression, which Mexico has employed numerous times in furtherance of illegal immigration.
In other words you think that a work permit is a stupid idea, and you think that a Great Wall of Shep
TM is a great idea. And you think that Mexico really wants a war with the United States when it's most probably the Mexican Army being poorly trained and led and not following orders of the central government. I must have missed Fox's declaration of war.
The reason there is no open declaration of war is because Mexico knows it would lose. But you want some quotes?
"While I am saying this half serious and half joking, I think we are practicing la reconquista in California."
~ Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General, Feb 2002.
"I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders and that Mexican migrants are an important - a very important - part of this."
~ Ernesto Zedillo, Former President of Mexico, speaking in Chicago, July 23, 1997.
"Mexico extends beyond its borders."
~ Vicente Fox, Current President of Mexico, speaking to a gathering in Milwaukee in July of 2001
"In an extraordinary political move, President Vicente Fox has announced the formation of a cabinet level agency to govern, protect and provide services to over 20 million Mexicans now living in Aztlan, a territory encompassing most of the southwest part of the USA. President Fox declared yesterday that he will personally lead the new agency he named "Consejo Nacional para las Comunidades Mexicanas en el Exterior" (National Council for Mexican Communities Abroad). The "Council" will consist of the president, most of the cabinet secretaries and a, as of yet unnamed, representative from Aztlan. This is a bold move that essentially extends the arm of the Mexican government into the territories it previously lost during the Mexican-American War of 1848."
~ Reported in "La Voz de Aztlan", August 7, 2002.
"We have Nicaragua, soon we will have El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Costa Rica, and Mexico. One day, tomorrow or five years or fifteen years from now, we're going to take 5 to 10 million Mexicans and they are going into Dallas, into El Paso, into Houston, into New Mexico, into San Diego, and each one will have embedded in his mind the idea of killing ten Americans."
~Thomas Borge, Nicaragua Interior Minister as quoted in the Washington Times, March 27, 1985
You need a reality check, sand niggers aren't a threat to America and never will be.
Well, "sand niggers" already have been, and although illegal aliens haven't blown up any buildings yet, the destruction their presence wreaks on the economy is just as disastrous.
.
