(lol.. extraneous? no, what im asking is how can you put God down for ordering a war / killings, or any thing of that type.. and accept the bombing of hiroshima.. or an of the countless acts that men have done... which is in context, because it shows your bias towards God, and haste in judging him.)
(WHAT DOES THE US POLICY HAVE TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY'S RECORD????????????????????????????
Answer the question, pointing to something else does NOT answer the question...WON't or more likely CAN'T BTW I'm not putting god down, I'm questioning the role that Christainity has played in history, last time I checked, God didn;t come down and personally start smiting ANYONE....But PLENTY of Christians have.....)
Christians have at times killed people.. That is a fact. What is your point? Does that make all christians immoral, or killers? My point is, how can you so eagerly criticize christians, and ignore the actions of others? Your reasoning seems biased & prejudiced towards christians. so christians killed people, americans and others have done the same.. you cannot claim moral high ground, or effectively distance yourself from the unsavory actions of others, when your society is guilty of the same crimes..
catholics or others arent perfect and we never claimed to be.. some people love to put down us for our mistakes, maybe it makes them feel better about themselves.. or they vent their fustrations.. people are people, and people make mistakes.. and are misled. If you try to condemn us because of the mistakes we made.. you are a hypocrite. that is the point.
(I HAD to put this quote in perspective with what I wrote earlier....ROTFLMAO!!! The SCIENTIFIC method is PRECISLY what you're NOT doing....have you even cited to a SINGLE FACT YET?????? Oh, yeah you strike me as someone with a truly open mind....open as in hole in the head. YOU are rife with personal prejudice, bias and discrimination!!)
tsk tsk.. back in school, they teach a paragraph typically had its statement, followed by sentences containing facts, data, figures that backed up the statements.. so many of you post your statement, accusations, etc..... I keep seeing ppl call me prejudice, or whatever.. but no facts to back up their words.. so, from now on, unless you post some facts telling/depicting how im being... discriminatory, im going to ignore the gibberish.
(OK, ONCE AGAIN, I am not dragging God into this , you are. I am saying explain the actions of Christianity not the actions of god...Christians and God are two seperate entities. I am not going to go through the mental gymnastics of accusing God of anything, I am saying that Christians have done TRULY HORRIFIC things...YET AGAIN UTTER SILENCE from you on this point.)
christians are people...... people are not perfect.. that explains christianity's imperfect record. we never claimed to be perfect.. any who do, are probably uneducated, or not very knowledgeable "christians." and once again you're a hypocrite to slander christianity's record.... because no one's record is perfect.
(Ah, Just as I will just skip this whole thread because it is obvious that you are a fanatical moron who has not for ONE MOMENT ever really examined why he believes....a true beliver my friend is one that has looked at all the arguments, considered them and still held on to that faith. Someone who can say "Yeah, Christianity is a mess, BUT I still believe." Last count there were only a few of us actually trying to debate you...but hey not being able to count does not surprise me in the least.)
HOW am i a fanatical moron?
HOW have i not examined what i believe?
whether or not christianity is a "mess," isn't the point.. your opinions, which seem to be formulated like..
because christianity = imperfect
therefore
There is no God
An analogy to this would be.....
because the KKK exists
therefore
All Americans must be racists.
maybe youll actually see the flaw in your reasoning... anyone off the street, in any country could do a hideous act.... and claim to be a christian, muslim, american - whatever....... but just because people do such things in the name of something larger than themselves.. is not representative of the whole.. or the core of beliefs, they claim to represent.
(Hitler = All Christians?? I DID not say that, in the very quote you cite I distinctly said Hitler was certainly NOT a good christian...BUT He was a christian believing in many of the same things that you and I believe in and you need to face the ugly side of christianity JUST as every religion has an ugly side...you know why, because reeligion is MAN's way of interrpetting the divine and MAN is a very flawed creature. You would never admit that because you equate religion with god and that is a sad thing because then you hit the wall of, well, then God must condone killing heretics, burning witches, molesting children, etc....Because the christian religion IS god and NOT man's interpetation of God's word.....WHY do I get the feeling that this is all a waste of breath on my part????)
you are way off.. by your reasoning, John Walker Lindh - who was born + raised in the United States is indicative of all Americans. the christian religion is NOT and never claimed to be GOD... people have free will.. if someone kills a bunch of people, and claims to serve God, his actions which conflict with the Bible's teachings.. show him to not be a christian..
its like someone.... killing a bunch of Republicans, then claiming to be a Republican.. the action conflicts with the interests involved.
(DID NOT EVEN BOTHER TO ANSWER THIS....This is the one point that you used that pisses me off the most....it is the utter lack of caring that the church DROPPED THE BALL and betrayed an entire race to DEATH. Maybe you just don't give a shit, maybe you could care less that they were jews (EVEN THOUGH CHRIST WAS A JEW) DO you give a shit about the fact that as Christians we are SUPPOSED to lay down our lives for our brothers:)
what did you expect christians to do about it? launch an attack on Germany? Go on some daring commando mission to take Hitler alive?
common ailments of atheists?
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
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ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(My complaint ? Is for your lack of respect plus your ignorance. I never said that was a place for one view or anything like this. But you have to come here using the same style of bigotony to argument in a place where people are stated to at least follow a argument with logic and reason. My complain is your constant contradction of yourself or your lack of knowledge of so many terms you claim to use and often from the Bible you claim to follow. My complaim is for you claiming the mistake of atheists to generalize about religious people and them do the same thing. My complaim for you is not for being a supporter of religion but for you using the same preaching in a place where that was clearly stated as not welcome. You should read his site and notice this perhaps.)
not welcome? i saw no sign that said - christians/catholics/etc not welcome....
(Is Shaolin really trying to get us to buy that the Church has never done anything wrong in its existence? What about when they were charging people HUGE amounts of money so they could "skip" purgatory and go straight to heaven. And that's after they created purgatory to try and get people to rejoin the church. And those little tokens they gave out to let you skip purgatory were only available to the very rich nobles, and not peasants!)
.. im not saying it didnt happen. you cannot say that all christians, or the religion in its entirety is crooked because of the actions of a few mis-guided inviduals.. comprende amigo?
(Evil
1) all non-christian religeons
2) gay folks
3) eating shellfish)
shellfish is probably the only one that fits..
(Good
1) slavery
2) genocide
3) mysogeny)
myso-what? how do you figure slavery and genocide are biblical morals? i cant wait.. to hear this one.
(So, yes, as it happens I'm often ashamed when my countrymen blindly expound the virtues of the Christian religeon.)
(Then again, maybe its just late and I'm cranky. Don't know for sure. Have fun guys, this one's been interesting so far.)
not welcome? i saw no sign that said - christians/catholics/etc not welcome....
(Is Shaolin really trying to get us to buy that the Church has never done anything wrong in its existence? What about when they were charging people HUGE amounts of money so they could "skip" purgatory and go straight to heaven. And that's after they created purgatory to try and get people to rejoin the church. And those little tokens they gave out to let you skip purgatory were only available to the very rich nobles, and not peasants!)
.. im not saying it didnt happen. you cannot say that all christians, or the religion in its entirety is crooked because of the actions of a few mis-guided inviduals.. comprende amigo?
(Evil
1) all non-christian religeons
2) gay folks
3) eating shellfish)
shellfish is probably the only one that fits..
(Good
1) slavery
2) genocide
3) mysogeny)
myso-what? how do you figure slavery and genocide are biblical morals? i cant wait.. to hear this one.
(So, yes, as it happens I'm often ashamed when my countrymen blindly expound the virtues of the Christian religeon.)
(Then again, maybe its just late and I'm cranky. Don't know for sure. Have fun guys, this one's been interesting so far.)
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ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(Oh, good, let's use ancient JEWISH texts to support a small portion of the Bible. Your statement also does not clear anything up. There are still many Bibles out there, and many sub-sections of Christianity, that use Bibles that do not take these into account. They are essentially researched entirely from secondary sources, as is virtually all of the New Testament.)
according to experiments people have done, namely that one where people stand in a line, and something is said to the person in the front, and repeated down the line of people.. to the person at the end.. the chances that something will be misphrsed, altered, etc.. is greater with the number of people involved.
The old testament being.. well, older.. and having more people involved with its translation throughout the years would be more likely to be mistranslated or altered. thus if the OT is accurate.. the odds would agree chances are NT's accurate too.
(People have been trying to disprove the existence of the Holocaust for fifty years, and Aliens visiting us for thirty years, and it hasn't happened. Christianity has set itself up so that it cannot be disproven, only parts of it can be disproven. Do you really think the world is less than 10,000 years old? Do you really think it was created in six days? Do you REALLY think that men have more ribs than women?)
this is my translation of the world was created in 7 days.. story....... not christianity's or anyone else's my own.. meaning it could be false = : D
k - if you're God.. showing a prophet the creation of the world in a dream or vision..... and, literally the formation of the world took years, and years.. you couldnt show everything in real time - because it would take years.. so, show the 7 days where events happened.. and leave the ambiguity as a test of faith.
dont think the Bible ever claimed men have more ribs than women..... and also the Bible was never meant to be used as flotation device or bullet-proof vest.. =;D
(That's exactly the problem with Christianity. It cannot be modified ten years down the road when parts of it are proven wrong. Oh, I forgot, you didn't think of all those times, did you? Scientific theories are meant to be discussed and revised to make them better fit the available data. They become more accurate when this is done. Christianity never becomes more accurate. Are you seriously saying that this is bad for science? How could science exist without it? BTW, I AM right about bees.)
if its the truth.. it doesnt need to be changed.. whether one translates literally or figuratively is like....... so important. it wasnt meant to be translated literally in its entirety. in many ways its like that psychologist's test where.. cards emblazoned with ambiguous, undefined shapes.. are flashed before someone's eyes.. and what the person sees is more a reflection of who they are.. than what it is they are looking at.
according to experiments people have done, namely that one where people stand in a line, and something is said to the person in the front, and repeated down the line of people.. to the person at the end.. the chances that something will be misphrsed, altered, etc.. is greater with the number of people involved.
The old testament being.. well, older.. and having more people involved with its translation throughout the years would be more likely to be mistranslated or altered. thus if the OT is accurate.. the odds would agree chances are NT's accurate too.
(People have been trying to disprove the existence of the Holocaust for fifty years, and Aliens visiting us for thirty years, and it hasn't happened. Christianity has set itself up so that it cannot be disproven, only parts of it can be disproven. Do you really think the world is less than 10,000 years old? Do you really think it was created in six days? Do you REALLY think that men have more ribs than women?)
this is my translation of the world was created in 7 days.. story....... not christianity's or anyone else's my own.. meaning it could be false = : D
k - if you're God.. showing a prophet the creation of the world in a dream or vision..... and, literally the formation of the world took years, and years.. you couldnt show everything in real time - because it would take years.. so, show the 7 days where events happened.. and leave the ambiguity as a test of faith.
dont think the Bible ever claimed men have more ribs than women..... and also the Bible was never meant to be used as flotation device or bullet-proof vest.. =;D
(That's exactly the problem with Christianity. It cannot be modified ten years down the road when parts of it are proven wrong. Oh, I forgot, you didn't think of all those times, did you? Scientific theories are meant to be discussed and revised to make them better fit the available data. They become more accurate when this is done. Christianity never becomes more accurate. Are you seriously saying that this is bad for science? How could science exist without it? BTW, I AM right about bees.)
if its the truth.. it doesnt need to be changed.. whether one translates literally or figuratively is like....... so important. it wasnt meant to be translated literally in its entirety. in many ways its like that psychologist's test where.. cards emblazoned with ambiguous, undefined shapes.. are flashed before someone's eyes.. and what the person sees is more a reflection of who they are.. than what it is they are looking at.
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Mr Bean
- Lord of Irony
- Posts: 22466
- Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am
Gotta love some people when they don't even bother reading what they belive in(Islam has a condition you are supposed to read the Koran before you can claim to be Islamic and its heavy stressed by that religion you should even memorize it, Somthing Christian quite lacks which lets me use fun quotes aginst your aurgments ShAoLiN)
t fly here. As For Grammer not all of us have English as our first lanugage If you have such a problem with my Grammer I'd be happy to Contiue in Farsi
And for the record yes no one's record is perfect but there are some better than others.
If you acutal had read what his statment says a better summing up would be
If ShAoLiN does not provide evidance when asked and evades the question
then ShAoLin=Big freken idiot
Oh and I don't belive in a God
THAT is a much better summation of his post
It means to do what you accuse others of doing
He's not accusing you of not being perfect, Rather he's accusing you of being a idiot who can't provide any proof for his statments and when pressed attacks the person asking rather than backing it up.
Refering to Idol-Worshpers
Or how to deal with other religions
Kill Gays
Unlike the New Testmate which has been translated around alot
Ahh and here you see the diffrance A Nation state is diffrent from a Religion. If it threatens our intrests we have the right to defend them. When our freedom was threated America rebelled, When our nation-status was threated we fought back, When an entire race of people was threated with death and we know we where the next targets we fought back. In fact we CAN claim the high ground because we start little to nothing and as you contradict yourself you want to claim things that happend hundres of years ago matter while still saying you should ignore what Christians did hundreds of years ago.Christians have at times killed people.. That is a fact. What is your point? Does that make all christians immoral, or killers? My point is, how can you so eagerly criticize christians, and ignore the actions of others? Your reasoning seems biased & prejudiced towards christians. so christians killed people, americans and others have done the same.. you cannot claim moral high ground, or effectively distance yourself from the unsavory actions of others, when your society is guilty of the same crimes..
Evading the question. He asked for proof and you evaded the question by questing is grammer. This is know as the Ad-Homean attack for it targets the person rather than the aurgment and please stop it because to put it bluntly that shit dontsk tsk.. back in school, they teach a paragraph typically had its statement, followed by sentences containing facts, data, figures that backed up the statements.. so many of you post your statement, accusations, etc..... I keep seeing ppl call me prejudice, or whatever.. but no facts to back up their words.. so, from now on, unless you post some facts telling/depicting how im being... discriminatory, im going to ignore the gibberish.
t fly here. As For Grammer not all of us have English as our first lanugage If you have such a problem with my Grammer I'd be happy to Contiue in Farsi
Yet your religion commands you to be perfect(Mathew 12:1 if I remeber corretly) Good job there.christians are people...... people are not perfect.. that explains christianity's imperfect record. we never claimed to be perfect.. any who do, are probably uneducated, or not very knowledgeable "christians." and once again you're a hypocrite to slander christianity's record.... because no one's record is perfect.
And for the record yes no one's record is perfect but there are some better than others.
Hasty Generlzation banaza there and a Good job at dodging the pointbecause christianity = imperfect
therefore
There is no God
An analogy to this would be.....
because the KKK exists
therefore
All Americans must be racists.
If you acutal had read what his statment says a better summing up would be
If ShAoLiN does not provide evidance when asked and evades the question
then ShAoLin=Big freken idiot
Oh and I don't belive in a God
THAT is a much better summation of his post
Do you even understand the Defition of Hypocryte?catholics or others arent perfect and we never claimed to be.. some people love to put down us for our mistakes, maybe it makes them feel better about themselves.. or they vent their fustrations.. people are people, and people make mistakes.. and are misled. If you try to condemn us because of the mistakes we made.. you are a hypocrite. that is the point.
It means to do what you accuse others of doing
He's not accusing you of not being perfect, Rather he's accusing you of being a idiot who can't provide any proof for his statments and when pressed attacks the person asking rather than backing it up.
I'll link these two togther so I can this only oncenot welcome? i saw no sign that said - christians/catholics/etc not welcome....
A few fun bible quotes(Evil
1) all non-christian religeons
2) gay folks
3) eating shellfish)
shellfish is probably the only one that fits..
Ezekiel 9:5show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women
Refering to Idol-Worshpers
Deuteronomy 20:16-18However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
Or how to deal with other religions
Leviticus 20:13If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Kill Gays
Expect Captian Brillant Like Islam after it we do have Tora's and such other 1k Years old and some I've heard even old and one of the big things about Both Judism and Islam is keeping it in the orgional Launguage, Considering the Tora is the first five or so(Four five? I forget ATM) Books of the Bible its safe to say they did not get altered much.The old testament being.. well, older.. and having more people involved with its translation throughout the years would be more likely to be mistranslated or altered. thus if the OT is accurate.. the odds would agree chances are NT's accurate too.
Unlike the New Testmate which has been translated around alot
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(Ahh and here you see the diffrance A Nation state is diffrent from a Religion. If it threatens our intrests we have the right to defend them. When our freedom was threated America rebelled, When our nation-status was threated we fought back, When an entire race of people was threated with death and we know we where the next targets we fought back. In fact we CAN claim the high ground because we start little to nothing and as you contradict yourself you want to claim things that happend hundres of years ago matter while still saying you should ignore what Christians did hundreds of years ago.)
Your point is redundant, Christianity as a nation or state likewise has the right to defend itself. I never said we should ignore anything "christians," did. I'm sure there were cases of American soldiers wiping out entire villages of indians - men, women & children.. Criticism seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
(Evading the question. He asked for proof and you evaded the question by questing is grammer. This is know as the Ad-Homean attack for it targets the person rather than the aurgment and please stop it because to put it bluntly that shit don
t fly here. As For Grammer not all of us have English as our first lanugage If you have such a problem with my Grammer I'd be happy to Contiue in Farsi)
What question? If i skipped over it, it probably wasnt worth answering. Grammar isnt the problem.. its people who make accusations, or attempt to categorize me without providing facts, to support their statements.
(Yet your religion commands you to be perfect(Mathew 12:1 if I remeber corretly) Good job there.
And for the record yes no one's record is perfect but there are some better than others.)
::checks:: not matthew 12:1.. but the Bible states serveral times, that all are flawed. Your quote is likely taken out of context.
(Hasty Generlzation banaza there and a Good job at dodging the point
If you acutal had read what his statment says a better summing up would be
If ShAoLiN does not provide evidance when asked and evades the question
then ShAoLin=Big freken idiot
Oh and I don't belive in a God
THAT is a much better summation of his post)
????? For a group of people who claim to support scientific method.. a good 70-80% of your arguments appear to be, groundless accusastions, and arbitrary interpretation of facts.. For your equation to at least be worth reading.. it would need..
Shaolin - Evaded -insert question here-
therefore shaolin = blah blah blah
BECAUSE - blah blah blah..
cite facts so i know, you arent just babbling incoherently.
(Do you even understand the Defition of Hypocryte?
It means to do what you accuse others of doing
He's not accusing you of not being perfect, Rather he's accusing you of being a idiot who can't provide any proof for his statments and when pressed attacks the person asking rather than backing it up.)
lol.. You being an 'American' are being a hypocrite, when you attempt to look down at christianity, because some people in the group known as christians killed people. Because Americans likewise have done the same.
Show me how, and when I did any of the things you accuse me of.. So far all I've learned from atheists, your so-called scientific method.. and whatever else you claim to believe in........ is just.. not impressing me..
(show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women
Ezekiel 9:5
Refering to Idol-Worshpers)
What is it going to take for you to be able to comprehend.. that the Old Testament no longer applies to christians? It ONCE applied to us.. until Jesus came along.. and the new covenant, etc.. once again you take quotes, and translate them out of context.
(Deuteronomy 20:16-18
Or how to deal with other religions
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13
Kill Gays)
LETS SAY IT ALL TOGETHER NOW...... O L D T E S T A M E N T.
(Expect Captian Brillant Like Islam after it we do have Tora's and such other 1k Years old and some I've heard even old and one of the big things about Both Judism and Islam is keeping it in the orgional Launguage, Considering the Tora is the first five or so(Four five? I forget ATM) Books of the Bible its safe to say they did not get altered much.
Unlike the New Testmate which has been translated around alot)
ok.. so explain to me why it is that we do not judge all muslims by the act of bin laden.. yet its ok to judge christians by hitler?
Your point is redundant, Christianity as a nation or state likewise has the right to defend itself. I never said we should ignore anything "christians," did. I'm sure there were cases of American soldiers wiping out entire villages of indians - men, women & children.. Criticism seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
(Evading the question. He asked for proof and you evaded the question by questing is grammer. This is know as the Ad-Homean attack for it targets the person rather than the aurgment and please stop it because to put it bluntly that shit don
t fly here. As For Grammer not all of us have English as our first lanugage If you have such a problem with my Grammer I'd be happy to Contiue in Farsi)
What question? If i skipped over it, it probably wasnt worth answering. Grammar isnt the problem.. its people who make accusations, or attempt to categorize me without providing facts, to support their statements.
(Yet your religion commands you to be perfect(Mathew 12:1 if I remeber corretly) Good job there.
And for the record yes no one's record is perfect but there are some better than others.)
::checks:: not matthew 12:1.. but the Bible states serveral times, that all are flawed. Your quote is likely taken out of context.
(Hasty Generlzation banaza there and a Good job at dodging the point
If you acutal had read what his statment says a better summing up would be
If ShAoLiN does not provide evidance when asked and evades the question
then ShAoLin=Big freken idiot
Oh and I don't belive in a God
THAT is a much better summation of his post)
????? For a group of people who claim to support scientific method.. a good 70-80% of your arguments appear to be, groundless accusastions, and arbitrary interpretation of facts.. For your equation to at least be worth reading.. it would need..
Shaolin - Evaded -insert question here-
therefore shaolin = blah blah blah
BECAUSE - blah blah blah..
cite facts so i know, you arent just babbling incoherently.
(Do you even understand the Defition of Hypocryte?
It means to do what you accuse others of doing
He's not accusing you of not being perfect, Rather he's accusing you of being a idiot who can't provide any proof for his statments and when pressed attacks the person asking rather than backing it up.)
lol.. You being an 'American' are being a hypocrite, when you attempt to look down at christianity, because some people in the group known as christians killed people. Because Americans likewise have done the same.
Show me how, and when I did any of the things you accuse me of.. So far all I've learned from atheists, your so-called scientific method.. and whatever else you claim to believe in........ is just.. not impressing me..
(show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women
Ezekiel 9:5
Refering to Idol-Worshpers)
What is it going to take for you to be able to comprehend.. that the Old Testament no longer applies to christians? It ONCE applied to us.. until Jesus came along.. and the new covenant, etc.. once again you take quotes, and translate them out of context.
(Deuteronomy 20:16-18
Or how to deal with other religions
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13
Kill Gays)
LETS SAY IT ALL TOGETHER NOW...... O L D T E S T A M E N T.
(Expect Captian Brillant Like Islam after it we do have Tora's and such other 1k Years old and some I've heard even old and one of the big things about Both Judism and Islam is keeping it in the orgional Launguage, Considering the Tora is the first five or so(Four five? I forget ATM) Books of the Bible its safe to say they did not get altered much.
Unlike the New Testmate which has been translated around alot)
ok.. so explain to me why it is that we do not judge all muslims by the act of bin laden.. yet its ok to judge christians by hitler?
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AdmiralKanos
- Lex Animata
- Posts: 2649
- Joined: 2002-07-02 11:36pm
- Location: Toronto, Ontario
From what? Contradictory facts and ideas? Christian fundie propaganda pretends that Christianity is under attack whenever somebody fails to let them trample all over everyone else's rights.ShAoLiN wrote:Christianity as a nation or state likewise has the right to defend itself.
It doesn't matter whether it impresses you. What matters is that you are utterly unable to find a logical flaw in it, hence it wins.Show me how, and when I did any of the things you accuse me of.. So far all I've learned from atheists, your so-called scientific method.. and whatever else you claim to believe in........ is just.. not impressing me..
Nice excuse to weasel away from responsibility for OT hatred. Tell me then: if the Old Testament no longer applies to Christians, why haven't you deleted it from the Bible?What is it going to take for you to be able to comprehend.. that the Old Testament no longer applies to christians?
The Nazi flag no longer applies to Germans. But if they continued to fly that fucking flag over their state buildings, they would have a lot to answer for, wouldn't they?
The "new covenant" is irrelevant. The point is that Jesus asks us to worship the same God who did all those things. He also stated quite clearly that he is not here to repudiate the laws of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20), so you must still answer for them. Unless, of course, you admit that the Bible can only be accepted selectively, after deleting the bad parts by judging them based on a non-Biblical standard of morality similar to that which atheists use (as XPViking appears to do).It ONCE applied to us.. until Jesus came along.. and the new covenant, etc.. once again you take quotes, and translate them out of context.
That's a strawman. Hitler is only used to demonstrate the extreme fallacy of the claim that Christian beliefs produce superior morality. He is not used as a generalization of all Christians. But many, many people have already pointed this out, and you're obviously too stupid to recognize it.ok.. so explain to me why it is that we do not judge all muslims by the act of bin laden.. yet its ok to judge christians by hitler?
For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
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Mr Bean
- Lord of Irony
- Posts: 22466
- Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am
Ahh some easy idiot bashing to see me off for the night ok lets see what you thought you knew you thought.
ShAoLiN ShAoLiN ShAoLiN you know theres a diffrance between Ignoranc and Will-full Ignorance. You seem to pratice the latter, Well then I ask you don't you think there is a slight diffrence between two hundred people or so in Vietnam and two thousand years of hate and oppression which all told adds up to nearly two hundred million people?
Also Mr Pot your by yourself there, There is a strong diffrance between the acts of indiduals killing over a village or two and the HEAD OF A MAJOR RELIGION not only calling for War but Holy War where no matter what you would do Sins would be Forgiven. Or when under the Direction of thier God The Isrealights killed every living thing in over twenty citys.
And you are to be perfect like your Lord
I'll find the specfic page number latter for now its not important as it was just a side note
As you sit here typing to me on a Computer, Who base princples where discovering using the So-Called Scientific method and lets not forget the acutal matterals that went into product not even count the amount of reachurch needed to produce the clean rooms nessary to build computer parts or the Computer Parts itself
Unless your mother had you out in the field then take the Horse and Buggy back to the no running water or electrisity house you owe your life to the So-called Scientific method Captian Brillant
Your level of Idiocy is staggering, Impress you? Since when do you think we give a flying #^ what the hell you think except we who think it should be best to educate you as the TV you grew up with never did seeing as it was tuned to the Televanglists rather than say the Discovery or History Channels
Thanks of Course to Mike for the Handy Chart
Moses/God
Osama Bin-Laden/Allah
Upbringing: raised as a privileged Egyptian by wealthy adoptive parents with powerful connections.
Upbringing: raised as a member of Saudi Arabia's business elite, by a wealthy family with powerful business and political connections.
Grievances: Hebrews are oppressed and treated as a slave race by Egypt, the leading economic and military superpower at the time. Male Hebrew children were supposedly killed in large numbers around the time of Moses' birth.
Grievances: Arabs are oppressed and live in economic poverty despite their vast oil riches, except for those who prostitute themselves to American interests (the wealthy ruling families). Millions of Arabs in Palestine are oppressed and brutalized by an occupying army, and denied access to education. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children are being indirectly killed by American sanctions.
Warning: "Let my people go".
Warning: "America will not know peace until we see it in Palestine".
Terrorist act: poisoning the water supply (turning water to blood)
Not yet.
Terrorist act: destroying the food supply (killing all the fish and livestock, destroying all the crops)
Not yet, but Al-Qaeda operatives showed interest in crop dusters.
Terrorist act: disrupting transportation (trapping Egyptians in their homes through blanket of darkness outside)
Terrorist act: disrupting transportation (trapping Americans on the ground, through fear of air travel)
Terrorist act: biological agent (fine powder which causes boils)
Terrorist act: biological agent (anthrax spores, ie- a fine powder which causes skin lesions and in some cases, lung infections which can be fatal)
Terrorist act: slaughter of innocent children (all the first-borns)
Terrorist act: slaughter of innocent people (the civilian workers, police officers, firefighters, and bystanders in and around the World Trade Centre).
Enemies' kindness: the Egyptian people took pity on the Hebrews and gave them "silver and gold".
Enemies' kindness: the American people send humanitarian aid to the Afghans. Womens' groups in America have been trying to help brutally oppressed Afghan women for years.
Military actions: killing Pharaoh and his charioteers by causing the receded water of the Red Sea to return and drown them.
Military actions: attacking the USS Cole in Yemen, as well as US military barracks and government facilities elsewhere.
Turning on his own: killing 3000 Hebrews10 and forcing their children to drink contaminated water11 after accusing them of betraying their faith by worshipping a golden calf.
Turning on his own: accusing Arab governments who co-operate with the Americans of betraying Islam and calling for violent overthrow of those governments.
Eventual fate: died in the desert.
Eventual fate: will die in the desert.
Your point is redundant, Christianity as a nation or state likewise has the right to defend itself. I never said we should ignore anything "christians," did. I'm sure there were cases of American soldiers wiping out entire villages of indians - men, women & children.. Criticism seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
ShAoLiN ShAoLiN ShAoLiN you know theres a diffrance between Ignoranc and Will-full Ignorance. You seem to pratice the latter, Well then I ask you don't you think there is a slight diffrence between two hundred people or so in Vietnam and two thousand years of hate and oppression which all told adds up to nearly two hundred million people?
Also Mr Pot your by yourself there, There is a strong diffrance between the acts of indiduals killing over a village or two and the HEAD OF A MAJOR RELIGION not only calling for War but Holy War where no matter what you would do Sins would be Forgiven. Or when under the Direction of thier God The Isrealights killed every living thing in over twenty citys.
Ahh his question which you so casual dismiss was please provide any evidance of what your saying and YOU dismissed it as not important, I guess logic and reasoninc are not part of the little world you spun for yourselfWhat question? If i skipped over it, it probably wasnt worth answering. Grammar isnt the problem.. its people who make accusations, or attempt to categorize me without providing facts, to support their statements.
I'll find the exact quote later It reads to be exact::checks:: not matthew 12:1.. but the Bible states serveral times, that all are flawed. Your quote is likely taken out of context.
And you are to be perfect like your Lord
I'll find the specfic page number latter for now its not important as it was just a side note
Burdern of Proof Fallacy, My Job is not to disprove you rather to simply cast dought on what you say an frankly you do that by yourself, The Burden of Poof is on YOU to back up what YOU say not I, If I say the sun was realy poka-dotted pink its not on your to prove me wrong rather me to prove me right to use terrible english but it gets the point accross, YOU made the statments back them up with proof or concide.????? For a group of people who claim to support scientific method.. a good 70-80% of your arguments appear to be, groundless accusastions, and arbitrary interpretation of facts.. For your equation to at least be worth reading.. it would need..
Shaolin - Evaded -insert question here-
therefore shaolin = blah blah blah
BECAUSE - blah blah blah..
cite facts so i know, you arent just babbling incoherently.
So-Called Scientific Method?
lol.. You being an 'American' are being a hypocrite, when you attempt to look down at christianity, because some people in the group known as christians killed people. Because Americans likewise have done the same.
Show me how, and when I did any of the things you accuse me of.. So far all I've learned from atheists, your so-called scientific method.. and whatever else you claim to believe in........ is just.. not impressing me..
As you sit here typing to me on a Computer, Who base princples where discovering using the So-Called Scientific method and lets not forget the acutal matterals that went into product not even count the amount of reachurch needed to produce the clean rooms nessary to build computer parts or the Computer Parts itself
Unless your mother had you out in the field then take the Horse and Buggy back to the no running water or electrisity house you owe your life to the So-called Scientific method Captian Brillant
Your level of Idiocy is staggering, Impress you? Since when do you think we give a flying #^ what the hell you think except we who think it should be best to educate you as the TV you grew up with never did seeing as it was tuned to the Televanglists rather than say the Discovery or History Channels
So half of your religion no longer applys... Your realy impressing me here, And have you ever quoted the Ten Commandments? Yes? Guess where they are Captian Brillant THE OLD TESTAMENTWhat is it going to take for you to be able to comprehend.. that the Old Testament no longer applies to christians? It ONCE applied to us.. until Jesus came along.. and the new covenant, etc.. once again you take quotes, and translate them out of context.
Because The Koran does not Provide for Terrisoism while the Bible quite speficly does, In fact take a good look at Moses and Compare him to Osama as Mike so helpfuly did on this chartok.. so explain to me why it is that we do not judge all muslims by the act of bin laden.. yet its ok to judge christians by hitler?
Thanks of Course to Mike for the Handy Chart
Moses/God
Osama Bin-Laden/Allah
Upbringing: raised as a privileged Egyptian by wealthy adoptive parents with powerful connections.
Upbringing: raised as a member of Saudi Arabia's business elite, by a wealthy family with powerful business and political connections.
Grievances: Hebrews are oppressed and treated as a slave race by Egypt, the leading economic and military superpower at the time. Male Hebrew children were supposedly killed in large numbers around the time of Moses' birth.
Grievances: Arabs are oppressed and live in economic poverty despite their vast oil riches, except for those who prostitute themselves to American interests (the wealthy ruling families). Millions of Arabs in Palestine are oppressed and brutalized by an occupying army, and denied access to education. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children are being indirectly killed by American sanctions.
Warning: "Let my people go".
Warning: "America will not know peace until we see it in Palestine".
Terrorist act: poisoning the water supply (turning water to blood)
Not yet.
Terrorist act: destroying the food supply (killing all the fish and livestock, destroying all the crops)
Not yet, but Al-Qaeda operatives showed interest in crop dusters.
Terrorist act: disrupting transportation (trapping Egyptians in their homes through blanket of darkness outside)
Terrorist act: disrupting transportation (trapping Americans on the ground, through fear of air travel)
Terrorist act: biological agent (fine powder which causes boils)
Terrorist act: biological agent (anthrax spores, ie- a fine powder which causes skin lesions and in some cases, lung infections which can be fatal)
Terrorist act: slaughter of innocent children (all the first-borns)
Terrorist act: slaughter of innocent people (the civilian workers, police officers, firefighters, and bystanders in and around the World Trade Centre).
Enemies' kindness: the Egyptian people took pity on the Hebrews and gave them "silver and gold".
Enemies' kindness: the American people send humanitarian aid to the Afghans. Womens' groups in America have been trying to help brutally oppressed Afghan women for years.
Military actions: killing Pharaoh and his charioteers by causing the receded water of the Red Sea to return and drown them.
Military actions: attacking the USS Cole in Yemen, as well as US military barracks and government facilities elsewhere.
Turning on his own: killing 3000 Hebrews10 and forcing their children to drink contaminated water11 after accusing them of betraying their faith by worshipping a golden calf.
Turning on his own: accusing Arab governments who co-operate with the Americans of betraying Islam and calling for violent overthrow of those governments.
Eventual fate: died in the desert.
Eventual fate: will die in the desert.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
-
lgot
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 914
- Joined: 2002-07-13 12:43am
- Location: brasil
- Contact:
Hence that was not what I talked...not welcome? i saw no sign that said - christians/catholics/etc not welcome....
It was not welcome your preaching under the guise of free opinion, come with debate where you use not stated facts as real and contradictions all the time.
And you are even worse, in your preaching you are deaf to everything that anyone tell you...
You claimed once that you follow only the NT...
but then, when asked about the so many prophecies that happened, you talked about OT.
When asked about a example of moraly, you come with shall not kill, which is OT.
you even used the absurd to say that "if the OT is accurate, then the NT will be also"
How dumb can that be ?
The NT is not even accurate among themselves. It was written by different people of the OT and written decades after Jesus lived! There was never found a original version - the oldest one is in Greek - of the texts!
And The OT ? Archeology proved it to happen ?
They could not find a clue , a single one about the existence of the most important character of the OT, Moses. It is so hard, that not even a prove of Hebrews living as slaves in Egypt in the period was found !
They still search for the marks of the hebrew presence in the desert. I wont even go in the older ones ,like Noah or Abraham, also without any evidence other than the Bible stories !
And About Jesus, they did not found prove of everything that happened there. They found the existence of a rebel leader named Jesus. That is all. Nothing else. No proves of Herodes's kid massacre or Jesus ressurection. No proves of miracles or anything like this.
Oh, yeah, there is the some historical characters like Caifas, or Herodes and Pilatos, but that is very few to assume that all - much more the spiritual part - was real.
You know, the found out also a probally Artur, noble leader in britain in the VIII century, so should we follow your logic and belive in Merlin as well ?
Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.
-
ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(ShAoLiN ShAoLiN ShAoLiN you know theres a diffrance between Ignoranc and Will-full Ignorance. You seem to pratice the latter, Well then I ask you don't you think there is a slight diffrence between two hundred people or so in Vietnam and two thousand years of hate and oppression which all told adds up to nearly two hundred million people?
Also Mr Pot your by yourself there, There is a strong diffrance between the acts of indiduals killing over a village or two and the HEAD OF A MAJOR RELIGION not only calling for War but Holy War where no matter what you would do Sins would be Forgiven. Or when under the Direction of thier God The Isrealights killed every living thing in over twenty citys.)
thats probably the best argument any of you have brought up.. so far. good job... your pattern of argument is something like this..
because
christians: killed lots of people, christian leaders ordered wars
the moral values + legitimacy of christianity = 0
The Crusades.. and other events that CONTRADICT the Bible's teachings.. or seem to contradict them.. its history, no one can argue with that..
Thus the question is do they prove all of christianity to be a fraud? Or do the facts prove, that those people who did HEINOUS & IMMORAL acts in the name of christianity.... are reflective of the religion as a whole? The answer to both is no.
The first statement..
Do the facts: Crusades, other events, prove that christianity is a fraud.
Answer: No.. because all "christians," are individuals, they are not one-size fit all, preprogrammed.. modules built exactly the same.. moreover its a fact that individuals in the past have claimed to be a republican, christian... or whatever in order to use the power and responsability afforded them.. for their own cause.
How can someone be categorized as a "christian," when they DO NOT follow the teachings of CHRIST. Example: Timothy McVeigh, might claim to be an American Hero, because in his own mind.. which CLAIMED to follow the beliefs and nationalism of a "true american," he believed such.. it does not mean
1. that timothy mcveigh is reflective of america as a whole.
2. that timothy mcveigh is a american hero or patriot.. though he might claim such affiliation.
the second statement..
Are the actions / facts recorded during the Crusades, etc, etc.. reflective of christianity as a whole?
Answer: Most definitely not..
Mother Theresa.. Martin Luther King Jr.. Isaac Newton, and a host of others prove your generalization wrong.. hence your argument is biased - it only looks at the bad aspects of christianity/religion.
(Ahh his question which you so casual dismiss was please provide any evidance of what your saying and YOU dismissed it as not important, I guess logic and reasoninc are not part of the little world you spun for yourself)
another... fact-less accusation?
(I'll find the exact quote later It reads to be exact
And you are to be perfect like your Lord
I'll find the specfic page number latter for now its not important as it was just a side note)
You do realize that if it says something like... "Aspire to be perfect." You cannot construe meanings like.. "be perfect," from that?
(Burdern of Proof Fallacy, My Job is not to disprove you rather to simply cast dought on what you say an frankly you do that by yourself, The Burden of Poof is on YOU to back up what YOU say not I, If I say the sun was realy poka-dotted pink its not on your to prove me wrong rather me to prove me right to use terrible english but it gets the point accross, YOU made the statments back them up with proof or concide.)
i have been expressing my thoughts and arguments in.... as close to scientific notation, as I can get them.. no one's been replying, in a way that specifically cites facts to disprove my .. arguments.
(So-Called Scientific Method?
As you sit here typing to me on a Computer, Who base princples where discovering using the So-Called Scientific method and lets not forget the acutal matterals that went into product not even count the amount of reachurch needed to produce the clean rooms nessary to build computer parts or the Computer Parts itself
Unless your mother had you out in the field then take the Horse and Buggy back to the no running water or electrisity house you owe your life to the So-called Scientific method Captian Brillant
Your level of Idiocy is staggering, Impress you? Since when do you think we give a flying #^ what the hell you think except we who think it should be best to educate you as the TV you grew up with never did seeing as it was tuned to the Televanglists rather than say the Discovery or History Channels)
I hope you realize that im not anti-science.. <s>anti-science</s>.. knowledge is a plus.. in my opinion.. its when people manipulate facts, or events to support a fraudulent pov, that i dislike for the most part.
(So half of your religion no longer applys... Your realy impressing me here, And have you ever quoted the Ten Commandments? Yes? Guess where they are Captian Brillant THE OLD TESTAMENT)
The only problem with that.. is that every single one of the 10 Commandments are in both Old and New Testaments. The - Thou shalt not Kill commandment has come under fire.. of late though.. some theologists believe it should be translated as.... "thou shalt not murder." which is a moot point, since i cant imagine killing and murdering not going hand in hand.
(Because The Koran does not Provide for Terrisoism while the Bible quite speficly does)
plz explain further.. elaborate.
(In fact take a good look at Moses and Compare him to Osama as Mike so helpfuly did on this chart)
Nice chart.... but what exactly is it supposed to prove? Also, a few facts that contradict the likeness of moses and bin laden were left out.....
1. moses was trying to free his people
bin laden and others signed a declaration of war against the us, primarily because of differences between them and the saudi government, also.... they claimed the us was wrongfully occupying their country, because after Hussein's invasion - and Saddam was driven back to Iraq.. the US established 1 or 2 military bases.. there..
their motivations arent exactly the same.. im thinking moses wanted to help his people, who were enslaved.. think most would agree.. thats a far cry from bin laden......... who goes to war simply because he doesnt like US bases in his country - EVEN after we drove Saddam out of his country.. (Maybe bin laden wanted hussein to conquer saudi arabia, since i could easily imagine them both buddies) think about it.. if bin laden REALLY is such a humanitarian..... dont you think he'd donate some of his millions of dollars towards his people..... and not RECOMMEND, that Saudi Arabia not accept any US aid - which is what he did.
There are other inconsistencies as well.... maybe ill address them later.
Also Mr Pot your by yourself there, There is a strong diffrance between the acts of indiduals killing over a village or two and the HEAD OF A MAJOR RELIGION not only calling for War but Holy War where no matter what you would do Sins would be Forgiven. Or when under the Direction of thier God The Isrealights killed every living thing in over twenty citys.)
thats probably the best argument any of you have brought up.. so far. good job... your pattern of argument is something like this..
because
christians: killed lots of people, christian leaders ordered wars
the moral values + legitimacy of christianity = 0
The Crusades.. and other events that CONTRADICT the Bible's teachings.. or seem to contradict them.. its history, no one can argue with that..
Thus the question is do they prove all of christianity to be a fraud? Or do the facts prove, that those people who did HEINOUS & IMMORAL acts in the name of christianity.... are reflective of the religion as a whole? The answer to both is no.
The first statement..
Do the facts: Crusades, other events, prove that christianity is a fraud.
Answer: No.. because all "christians," are individuals, they are not one-size fit all, preprogrammed.. modules built exactly the same.. moreover its a fact that individuals in the past have claimed to be a republican, christian... or whatever in order to use the power and responsability afforded them.. for their own cause.
How can someone be categorized as a "christian," when they DO NOT follow the teachings of CHRIST. Example: Timothy McVeigh, might claim to be an American Hero, because in his own mind.. which CLAIMED to follow the beliefs and nationalism of a "true american," he believed such.. it does not mean
1. that timothy mcveigh is reflective of america as a whole.
2. that timothy mcveigh is a american hero or patriot.. though he might claim such affiliation.
the second statement..
Are the actions / facts recorded during the Crusades, etc, etc.. reflective of christianity as a whole?
Answer: Most definitely not..
Mother Theresa.. Martin Luther King Jr.. Isaac Newton, and a host of others prove your generalization wrong.. hence your argument is biased - it only looks at the bad aspects of christianity/religion.
(Ahh his question which you so casual dismiss was please provide any evidance of what your saying and YOU dismissed it as not important, I guess logic and reasoninc are not part of the little world you spun for yourself)
another... fact-less accusation?
(I'll find the exact quote later It reads to be exact
And you are to be perfect like your Lord
I'll find the specfic page number latter for now its not important as it was just a side note)
You do realize that if it says something like... "Aspire to be perfect." You cannot construe meanings like.. "be perfect," from that?
(Burdern of Proof Fallacy, My Job is not to disprove you rather to simply cast dought on what you say an frankly you do that by yourself, The Burden of Poof is on YOU to back up what YOU say not I, If I say the sun was realy poka-dotted pink its not on your to prove me wrong rather me to prove me right to use terrible english but it gets the point accross, YOU made the statments back them up with proof or concide.)
i have been expressing my thoughts and arguments in.... as close to scientific notation, as I can get them.. no one's been replying, in a way that specifically cites facts to disprove my .. arguments.
(So-Called Scientific Method?
As you sit here typing to me on a Computer, Who base princples where discovering using the So-Called Scientific method and lets not forget the acutal matterals that went into product not even count the amount of reachurch needed to produce the clean rooms nessary to build computer parts or the Computer Parts itself
Unless your mother had you out in the field then take the Horse and Buggy back to the no running water or electrisity house you owe your life to the So-called Scientific method Captian Brillant
Your level of Idiocy is staggering, Impress you? Since when do you think we give a flying #^ what the hell you think except we who think it should be best to educate you as the TV you grew up with never did seeing as it was tuned to the Televanglists rather than say the Discovery or History Channels)
I hope you realize that im not anti-science.. <s>anti-science</s>.. knowledge is a plus.. in my opinion.. its when people manipulate facts, or events to support a fraudulent pov, that i dislike for the most part.
(So half of your religion no longer applys... Your realy impressing me here, And have you ever quoted the Ten Commandments? Yes? Guess where they are Captian Brillant THE OLD TESTAMENT)
The only problem with that.. is that every single one of the 10 Commandments are in both Old and New Testaments. The - Thou shalt not Kill commandment has come under fire.. of late though.. some theologists believe it should be translated as.... "thou shalt not murder." which is a moot point, since i cant imagine killing and murdering not going hand in hand.
(Because The Koran does not Provide for Terrisoism while the Bible quite speficly does)
plz explain further.. elaborate.
(In fact take a good look at Moses and Compare him to Osama as Mike so helpfuly did on this chart)
Nice chart.... but what exactly is it supposed to prove? Also, a few facts that contradict the likeness of moses and bin laden were left out.....
1. moses was trying to free his people
bin laden and others signed a declaration of war against the us, primarily because of differences between them and the saudi government, also.... they claimed the us was wrongfully occupying their country, because after Hussein's invasion - and Saddam was driven back to Iraq.. the US established 1 or 2 military bases.. there..
their motivations arent exactly the same.. im thinking moses wanted to help his people, who were enslaved.. think most would agree.. thats a far cry from bin laden......... who goes to war simply because he doesnt like US bases in his country - EVEN after we drove Saddam out of his country.. (Maybe bin laden wanted hussein to conquer saudi arabia, since i could easily imagine them both buddies) think about it.. if bin laden REALLY is such a humanitarian..... dont you think he'd donate some of his millions of dollars towards his people..... and not RECOMMEND, that Saudi Arabia not accept any US aid - which is what he did.
There are other inconsistencies as well.... maybe ill address them later.
-
ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(From what? Contradictory facts and ideas? Christian fundie propaganda pretends that Christianity is under attack whenever somebody fails to let them trample all over everyone else's rights.)
Do you comprehend the meaning of the word: generalization? How serious would anyone take a statement like... "All people born on the North Pole have small dicks?" Your arguments are biased, generalizations, because sentences like...
<quote>Christian fundie propaganda pretends that christianity is under attack whenever somebody fails to let them tremple all over everyone else's rights.</quote>
First.. "Fundamentalist Christians," are NOT reflective of christians as a whole.. Its like meeting one black man who is a bigot and.. generalizing that because one black man is a bigot.. thus they all must be bigots. Hence your logic is flawed.
(It doesn't matter whether it impresses you . What matters is that you are utterly unable to find a logical flaw in it, hence it wins.)
Go back and study your scientific method.. because that type of rationale is certainly, not reflective of it... This is your logic..
Because: axiom A = cannot be disproved
Therefore: axiom A = must be true
By your logic...... a man who claims to be Albert Einstein reincarnated.. must be true, because it cannot be disproved...
(Nice excuse to weasel away from responsibility for OT hatred. Tell me then: if the Old Testament no longer applies to Christians, why haven't you deleted it from the Bible?
The Nazi flag no longer applies to Germans. But if they continued to fly that fucking flag over their state buildings, they would have a lot to answer for, wouldn't they?)
why should it be deleted? who are you to say, that christians are not better off, having historical recordings of their mistakes.. to learn from? by your reasoning, every nation on the planet.... should crawl on its hands and knees..... because every single one of them has events in its past, that im sure lots of people would love to forget.
(The "new covenant" is irrelevant.
How so? What facts, theories, or hypothesis led you to believe this is true? Im thinking some of you need to go back and study your "scientific method," some more.
(The point is that Jesus asks us to worship the same God who did all those things . He also stated quite clearly that he is not here to repudiate the laws of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20), so you must still answer for them. Unless, of course, you admit that the Bible can only be accepted selectively, after deleting the bad parts by judging them based on a non-Biblical standard of morality similar to that which atheists use (as XPViking appears to do).)
Its nothing like selective rationalization of only certain aspects of the religion..... The fact that so many of you seem not to be able to comprehend is that.. Many of those teachings or beliefs.. were valid.... A LONG TIME AGO.. Jesus changed many things... by your line of reasoning............. Americans should follow laws, that have long since been abolished.. Jesus coming, abolished the old covenant... and a new one was set in place.... hence the old covenant.. no longer applies.. how you can even think that old or new covenant is irrelevant.. is beyond me.
(That's a strawman. Hitler is only used to demonstrate the extreme fallacy of the claim that Christian beliefs produce superior morality. He is not used as a generalization of all Christians. But many, many people have already pointed this out, and you're obviously too stupid to recognize it.)
if only you were as intelligent as you think you are.
Using Hitler as a christian stereotype.. is at best a generalization.. and a very flawed one.. its a weak argument any way you look at it.
First.. classifying hitler as a christian is a task in itself..
Look up definition for Christian..
it would go something like - one who follows the teachings of Christ...
Hitler was a man, who didn't follow the teachings of Christ.. He is like Timothy McVeigh, or Osama Bin Laden..... who CLAIM to be doing one thing... but are very likely doing something else...
As a generalization is it equally weak.. its like, taking one unethical, immoral, violent person... from any one classification of people.... and trying to classify EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people.. by that standard... its just a weak argument. If you're going to tell me its not a weak argument cite facts.. or im skipping your post.
Do you comprehend the meaning of the word: generalization? How serious would anyone take a statement like... "All people born on the North Pole have small dicks?" Your arguments are biased, generalizations, because sentences like...
<quote>Christian fundie propaganda pretends that christianity is under attack whenever somebody fails to let them tremple all over everyone else's rights.</quote>
First.. "Fundamentalist Christians," are NOT reflective of christians as a whole.. Its like meeting one black man who is a bigot and.. generalizing that because one black man is a bigot.. thus they all must be bigots. Hence your logic is flawed.
(It doesn't matter whether it impresses you . What matters is that you are utterly unable to find a logical flaw in it, hence it wins.)
Go back and study your scientific method.. because that type of rationale is certainly, not reflective of it... This is your logic..
Because: axiom A = cannot be disproved
Therefore: axiom A = must be true
By your logic...... a man who claims to be Albert Einstein reincarnated.. must be true, because it cannot be disproved...
(Nice excuse to weasel away from responsibility for OT hatred. Tell me then: if the Old Testament no longer applies to Christians, why haven't you deleted it from the Bible?
The Nazi flag no longer applies to Germans. But if they continued to fly that fucking flag over their state buildings, they would have a lot to answer for, wouldn't they?)
why should it be deleted? who are you to say, that christians are not better off, having historical recordings of their mistakes.. to learn from? by your reasoning, every nation on the planet.... should crawl on its hands and knees..... because every single one of them has events in its past, that im sure lots of people would love to forget.
(The "new covenant" is irrelevant.
How so? What facts, theories, or hypothesis led you to believe this is true? Im thinking some of you need to go back and study your "scientific method," some more.
(The point is that Jesus asks us to worship the same God who did all those things . He also stated quite clearly that he is not here to repudiate the laws of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20), so you must still answer for them. Unless, of course, you admit that the Bible can only be accepted selectively, after deleting the bad parts by judging them based on a non-Biblical standard of morality similar to that which atheists use (as XPViking appears to do).)
Its nothing like selective rationalization of only certain aspects of the religion..... The fact that so many of you seem not to be able to comprehend is that.. Many of those teachings or beliefs.. were valid.... A LONG TIME AGO.. Jesus changed many things... by your line of reasoning............. Americans should follow laws, that have long since been abolished.. Jesus coming, abolished the old covenant... and a new one was set in place.... hence the old covenant.. no longer applies.. how you can even think that old or new covenant is irrelevant.. is beyond me.
(That's a strawman. Hitler is only used to demonstrate the extreme fallacy of the claim that Christian beliefs produce superior morality. He is not used as a generalization of all Christians. But many, many people have already pointed this out, and you're obviously too stupid to recognize it.)
if only you were as intelligent as you think you are.
Using Hitler as a christian stereotype.. is at best a generalization.. and a very flawed one.. its a weak argument any way you look at it.
First.. classifying hitler as a christian is a task in itself..
Look up definition for Christian..
it would go something like - one who follows the teachings of Christ...
Hitler was a man, who didn't follow the teachings of Christ.. He is like Timothy McVeigh, or Osama Bin Laden..... who CLAIM to be doing one thing... but are very likely doing something else...
As a generalization is it equally weak.. its like, taking one unethical, immoral, violent person... from any one classification of people.... and trying to classify EVERY SINGLE ONE of those people.. by that standard... its just a weak argument. If you're going to tell me its not a weak argument cite facts.. or im skipping your post.
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LordShaithis
- Redshirt
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Notice he ignores Wong's last post entirely.
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
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ShAoLiN
- BANNED
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 2002-08-01 01:38am
(Hence that was not what I talked...
It was not welcome your preaching under the guise of free opinion, come with debate where you use not stated facts as real and contradictions all the time.)
what? do you claim to speak for the owner of this board? you do realize that in many ways, a non-christian policy violates freedom of speech, and is discrimination? I think it might be best, if you didn't read this thread anymore.. Or read, but dont hit the reply button..
(And you are even worse, in your preaching you are deaf to everything that anyone tell you...
You claimed once that you follow only the NT...
but then, when asked about the so many prophecies that happened, you talked about OT.
When asked about a example of moraly, you come with shall not kill, which is OT.)
no.. the 10 commandments are in both OT and NT... However the more strict laws that most people claim make christians immoral are OT beliefs taken out of context..
(you even used the absurd to say that "if the OT is accurate, then the NT will be also"
How dumb can that be ?)
to calculate the 'odds,' of chance.. you need knowledge of the difficulties related to handing down teachings/stories/information... through way of word of mouth, or by word for word.. manuscript.. its a simple FACT, that the more people involved in the process.... raises the 'odds,' that something will be mistranslated... misquoted.. altered.
(The NT is not even accurate among themselves. It was written by different people of the OT and written decades after Jesus lived! There was never found a original version - the oldest one is in Greek - of the texts!)
The NT is not accurate among themselves.. cite examples.. so I know specifically what you're talking about.
Far as I know.. the "Dead Sea Scrolls," are the oldest... manuscripts found.. scientific carbon-dating(?) and other processes reveal their age to be around.. 200/300-50 BC..
And The OT ? Archeology proved it to happen ?
They could not find a clue , a single one about the existence of the most important character of the OT, Moses. It is so hard, that not even a prove of Hebrews living as slaves in Egypt in the period was found !
They still search for the marks of the hebrew presence in the desert. I wont even go in the older ones ,like Noah or Abraham, also without any evidence other than the Bible stories !
.. go here
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/two.html
And About Jesus, they did not found prove of everything that happened there. They found the existence of a rebel leader named Jesus. That is all. Nothing else. No proves of Herodes's kid massacre
You're right, there is no historical proof of it happening.. but, ive seen no proof against it not happening either.
or Jesus ressurection. No proves of miracles or anything like this.
Oh, yeah, there is the some historical characters like Caifas, or Herodes and Pilatos, but that is very few to assume that all - much more the spiritual part - was real.
You know, the found out also a probally Artur, noble leader in britain in the VIII century, so should we follow your logic and belive in Merlin as well ?
nah..
It was not welcome your preaching under the guise of free opinion, come with debate where you use not stated facts as real and contradictions all the time.)
what? do you claim to speak for the owner of this board? you do realize that in many ways, a non-christian policy violates freedom of speech, and is discrimination? I think it might be best, if you didn't read this thread anymore.. Or read, but dont hit the reply button..
(And you are even worse, in your preaching you are deaf to everything that anyone tell you...
You claimed once that you follow only the NT...
but then, when asked about the so many prophecies that happened, you talked about OT.
When asked about a example of moraly, you come with shall not kill, which is OT.)
no.. the 10 commandments are in both OT and NT... However the more strict laws that most people claim make christians immoral are OT beliefs taken out of context..
(you even used the absurd to say that "if the OT is accurate, then the NT will be also"
How dumb can that be ?)
to calculate the 'odds,' of chance.. you need knowledge of the difficulties related to handing down teachings/stories/information... through way of word of mouth, or by word for word.. manuscript.. its a simple FACT, that the more people involved in the process.... raises the 'odds,' that something will be mistranslated... misquoted.. altered.
(The NT is not even accurate among themselves. It was written by different people of the OT and written decades after Jesus lived! There was never found a original version - the oldest one is in Greek - of the texts!)
The NT is not accurate among themselves.. cite examples.. so I know specifically what you're talking about.
Far as I know.. the "Dead Sea Scrolls," are the oldest... manuscripts found.. scientific carbon-dating(?) and other processes reveal their age to be around.. 200/300-50 BC..
And The OT ? Archeology proved it to happen ?
They could not find a clue , a single one about the existence of the most important character of the OT, Moses. It is so hard, that not even a prove of Hebrews living as slaves in Egypt in the period was found !
They still search for the marks of the hebrew presence in the desert. I wont even go in the older ones ,like Noah or Abraham, also without any evidence other than the Bible stories !
.. go here
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/two.html
And About Jesus, they did not found prove of everything that happened there. They found the existence of a rebel leader named Jesus. That is all. Nothing else. No proves of Herodes's kid massacre
You're right, there is no historical proof of it happening.. but, ive seen no proof against it not happening either.
or Jesus ressurection. No proves of miracles or anything like this.
Oh, yeah, there is the some historical characters like Caifas, or Herodes and Pilatos, but that is very few to assume that all - much more the spiritual part - was real.
You know, the found out also a probally Artur, noble leader in britain in the VIII century, so should we follow your logic and belive in Merlin as well ?
nah..
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lgot
- Jedi Knight
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I claim that When I read this site we found his arguments about this. And I claim you do not read what I say and transform it in a anti-chistian paranoia. I said against your preaching and never said anyone here have anything against a christian posting.what? do you claim to speak for the owner of this board? you do realize that in many ways, a non-christian policy violates freedom of speech, and is discrimination? I think it might be best, if you didn't read this thread anymore.. Or read, but dont hit the reply button..
False. When Jesus is asked about the Commandments, he answers with one and claim that one was so important that all other derives from this one. And yet, You just ignored the point of contradiction. You picked when its convinient for you to Follow only the NT and when its convinient to follow the OT.no.. the 10 commandments are in both OT and NT... However the more strict laws that most people claim make christians immoral are OT beliefs taken out of context..
And I have no argument about the stricts law, which included yes, some very non-reasonable commands from God, but you should see: That was not my point at all, so why you bother to comment this ?
That is a very reasonable idea. But you fail to notice it does not apply here because both OT and NT are not written in the same sittuation, intention or anything like this.to calculate the 'odds,' of chance.. you need knowledge of the difficulties related to handing down teachings/stories/information... through way of word of mouth, or by word for word.. manuscript.. its a simple FACT, that the more people involved in the process.... raises the 'odds,' that something will be mistranslated... misquoted.. altered.
The entire OT could be true and yet that would not prove the NT was true also. You do not need even to think that, with the high number of Apocryphes Evangelions, many of them written under circunstanses of less chances of falsification - There is a apocryphe wich is a probally version from Thiago; Jesus´s brother - where only one Evangelion, Jonh, the autor clearly states be a first hand member of such history.
Also, The 4 evangelions do not agree with each other, wich is enough to show such books to be very very possible to be mistranslated, misquoted, altered.
You joke dont you ? Even the Catholic Bible here in my house adverts against the difference between them and anyone who studies the style and the time they are wrote made analyze about it...The NT is not accurate among themselves.. cite examples.. so I know specifically what you're talking about.
Do not go futher, look his birthing, not the four bring the tale, but when you see, they cannt even agree with Josephe Genealogy. Some happenings are just present in one (Like the innocents killing or the 3 sages, or the temple presentation. The angels do not make the annoucement to every same. And his death ? They can barelly agree with all the happenings, some stuff happens in one, other does not. And his resurection ? They cannt even agree who found him first and the tumble empty and how much and where he showed up).
The Dead Sea Scrolls are not part of the Bible. They do not talk Jesus of Nazareth. Its manuscripts of Essenicus community - one of the 5 religious groups of hebrews - which like all of them expected the Messiah to come. But they had several critics to Sacudeus and Fariseus acts and them they got apart, living in such comunites as the Dead Sea one. The Dead Sea Scroll showed reproduction of the torah and books of law they followed and their day-day living until the mass revolution that happened in sixth decade of first century in the palestine which resulted in the destruction of Jeruaslem and the Essenicus - a apocalypct group - got envolved and destroyed. The Dead Sea Scrolls do not help to prove jesus more than showing the social sittuation of Palestine in his time and some may have pointed, Jesus's teaching may have some influence from Essenicus teaching since they have a more spiritual nature.Far as I know.. the "Dead Sea Scrolls," are the oldest... manuscripts found.. scientific carbon-dating(?) and other processes reveal their age to be around.. 200/300-50 BC..
So, I have no idea how you like to point the Dead Sea Scrolls as a prove to the truth about NT or anything (even becuase they are written about zealous and fanatical religious).
Why do not you use Flavio Josefo, the hebrew historian of that time who described that first half of the century and one of more acceptable source (even if he is a mystic in some of his passages) ? I must see, because Flavio Josefo did not say a word about what was said in the evangelions. In his documents are not fragments like the Dead Sea Scrolls. They are preserved a bit better.
Lol. That is what you have ???
Do you noticed that they do not show any prove and the only thing they proved are the existence of writting and hititas ?
Also, its a joke. A joke of very blind faith. Saying the bible of today is the same...ach...the Red Sea passing by Moses mistake is enough to prove the bible have been subject of bad translations. But then again, that is not my point at all. They still have no archeological prove of him. Or even hebrews in the egypt by that time.
Would be wonderful, aint ? They proved Troia and that there was war there. Therefore Achiles and Helena are real. *sigh*
But you claimed that NT happened. It was proved!You're right, there is no historical proof of it happening.. but, ive seen no proof against it not happening either.
You have been preaching it all the time!
Can everyone else in this topic see that ? He have been here with arguments about the NT been legitime from the hystorical point of view all the time, then he just claim that. He believes for faith, faith only.
Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.
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Stuart Mackey
- Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
- Posts: 5946
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- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Oh I love this, a non christian policy violates the principle of freedom of speech, care to post examples, evidence to back this up?ShAoLiN wrote:(Hence that was not what I talked...
It was not welcome your preaching under the guise of free opinion, come with debate where you use not stated facts as real and contradictions all the time.)
what? do you claim to speak for the owner of this board? you do realize that in many ways, a non-christian policy violates freedom of speech, and is discrimination? I think it might be best, if you didn't read this thread anymore.. Or read, but dont hit the reply button..
snip
brillaint, next you will be saying that a secular non christain government is anti democratic or something equelly rediculous
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EmperorChrostas the Cruel
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 1710
- Joined: 2002-07-09 10:23pm
- Location: N-space MWG AQ Sol3 USA CA SV
Yo guys, and gals.. You are playing his stupid little game.
Shaolin,
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF. Belief in god(s) is a matter of FAITH, and as such, is not open to rational discusion. If you care to argue points of faith, make that your argument. NOT here.
I can not PROVE there is no god(s), any more than you can PROVE there is no santa claus, living at the north pole, using magic, that doesn't obey normal physical laws.Because, after all, he's using MAGIC, so even normal methods of detection, and logical thinking, are no good! Because MAGIC is powerful.
It is NEVER possible to conclusivly prove a negative, because new evidence, supporting your claim, can be discovered in some future time. That is why the scientific method, at which you seem so ignorant, only acknownledges the the positive proof, of something being true. (note to the thick headed, that something has to BE, {that is to say exsist}, to be true.) From there, logic, the idea that a thing can not BE, and NOT BE, at the same time, tells us that if a statement is not true, it can not be true at the same time.
You must PROVE, that god exsists, before this becomes anything more than a discussion of faith, and thus not logical.
Faith is defined as a belief in something with no proof, or proof to the contrary.
Faith and logic are at odds, and logic says only one can be true. Faith says otherwise. Well, with that kind of reasoning, even if you are right, you are wrong, because both can be true!
Your kind never has proof, and plays to the courtroom burden of proof fiasco. This is not a court of law, and I don't have to give you the benifit of the doubt. On the contrary, YOU are the one making outlandish claims, demanding to be taken as seriously as the people who make lasers, and indoor plumbing. Everything I believe in, I can prove, if you have the time, and some gear for experimenting. The same science I believe in, is an integrated seamless whole. No one part of science contradict any other, When it APEARSE so, then a new discovery is soon to follow. The entire canvas is not filled in yet, but atom bombs, and antibiotics wouldn't work if we were clueless.
Once again, the burden of proof is on YOU! Present, GOD. Order, GOD. Inspection GOD. Right shoulder GOD. I can prove everything I believe in, can you? If not, then this is faith, a subject I don't discuss, and you shouldn't HERE either. Unless this is in the context of bunkum, to be debunked. That IS what this whole catagory is about, right?
And don't cop out on the old, "there are forces of nature, not visible, that I believe in." I will drop a rock on your head, to demonstrate gravity. I will shock you with electricity, to prove the exsistance magnetism, and leptons in general. I will either fry you from a distance, or blast you to bits a little closer to the a bomb, to prove strong and weak nuclear forces.
It is not that I ignore god, it is that I see nothing to ignore. There has to BE something, to ignore something. Or do you ignore santa claus?
Very much like the jews, in their faith. They do not reject the messiah, they jusy do not see one in jesus to reject in the first place.
Present your case. Provide references, or independantly verifiable experiments. Bible thumping just won't cut it with this crowd. To those of you who believe as I do, don't let fools like this take you out of your game plan. The buden of proof is on the maker of ANY claim. Anything else is futile, as once you accept the first premis, the rest must follow. You swallowed the mountain, why are you choking on the grain of sand!
Shaolin,
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF. Belief in god(s) is a matter of FAITH, and as such, is not open to rational discusion. If you care to argue points of faith, make that your argument. NOT here.
I can not PROVE there is no god(s), any more than you can PROVE there is no santa claus, living at the north pole, using magic, that doesn't obey normal physical laws.Because, after all, he's using MAGIC, so even normal methods of detection, and logical thinking, are no good! Because MAGIC is powerful.
It is NEVER possible to conclusivly prove a negative, because new evidence, supporting your claim, can be discovered in some future time. That is why the scientific method, at which you seem so ignorant, only acknownledges the the positive proof, of something being true. (note to the thick headed, that something has to BE, {that is to say exsist}, to be true.) From there, logic, the idea that a thing can not BE, and NOT BE, at the same time, tells us that if a statement is not true, it can not be true at the same time.
You must PROVE, that god exsists, before this becomes anything more than a discussion of faith, and thus not logical.
Faith is defined as a belief in something with no proof, or proof to the contrary.
Faith and logic are at odds, and logic says only one can be true. Faith says otherwise. Well, with that kind of reasoning, even if you are right, you are wrong, because both can be true!
Your kind never has proof, and plays to the courtroom burden of proof fiasco. This is not a court of law, and I don't have to give you the benifit of the doubt. On the contrary, YOU are the one making outlandish claims, demanding to be taken as seriously as the people who make lasers, and indoor plumbing. Everything I believe in, I can prove, if you have the time, and some gear for experimenting. The same science I believe in, is an integrated seamless whole. No one part of science contradict any other, When it APEARSE so, then a new discovery is soon to follow. The entire canvas is not filled in yet, but atom bombs, and antibiotics wouldn't work if we were clueless.
Once again, the burden of proof is on YOU! Present, GOD. Order, GOD. Inspection GOD. Right shoulder GOD. I can prove everything I believe in, can you? If not, then this is faith, a subject I don't discuss, and you shouldn't HERE either. Unless this is in the context of bunkum, to be debunked. That IS what this whole catagory is about, right?
And don't cop out on the old, "there are forces of nature, not visible, that I believe in." I will drop a rock on your head, to demonstrate gravity. I will shock you with electricity, to prove the exsistance magnetism, and leptons in general. I will either fry you from a distance, or blast you to bits a little closer to the a bomb, to prove strong and weak nuclear forces.
It is not that I ignore god, it is that I see nothing to ignore. There has to BE something, to ignore something. Or do you ignore santa claus?
Very much like the jews, in their faith. They do not reject the messiah, they jusy do not see one in jesus to reject in the first place.
Present your case. Provide references, or independantly verifiable experiments. Bible thumping just won't cut it with this crowd. To those of you who believe as I do, don't let fools like this take you out of your game plan. The buden of proof is on the maker of ANY claim. Anything else is futile, as once you accept the first premis, the rest must follow. You swallowed the mountain, why are you choking on the grain of sand!
Hmmmmmm.
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
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EmperorChrostas the Cruel
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 1710
- Joined: 2002-07-09 10:23pm
- Location: N-space MWG AQ Sol3 USA CA SV
Yo guys, and gals.. You are playing his stupid little game.
Shaolin,
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF. Belief in god(s) is a matter of FAITH, and as such, is not open to rational discusion. If you care to argue points of faith, make that your argument. NOT here.
I can not PROVE there is no god(s), any more than you can PROVE there is no santa claus, living at the north pole, using magic, that doesn't obey normal physical laws.Because, after all, he's using MAGIC, so even normal methods of detection, and logical thinking, are no good! Because MAGIC is powerful.
It is NEVER possible to conclusivly prove a negative, because new evidence, supporting your claim, can be discovered in some future time. That is why the scientific method, at which you seem so ignorant, only acknownledges the the positive proof, of something being true. (note to the thick headed, that something has to BE, {that is to say exsist}, to be true.) From there, logic, the idea that a thing can not BE, and NOT BE, at the same time, tells us that if a statement is not true, it can not be true at the same time.
You must PROVE, that god exsists, before this becomes anything more than a discussion of faith, and thus not logical.
Faith is defined as a belief in something with no proof, or proof to the contrary.
Faith and logic are at odds, and logic says only one can be true. Faith says otherwise. Well, with that kind of reasoning, even if you are right, you are wrong, because both can be true!
Your kind never has proof, and plays to the courtroom burden of proof fiasco. This is not a court of law, and I don't have to give you the benifit of the doubt. On the contrary, YOU are the one making outlandish claims, demanding to be taken as seriously as the people who make lasers, and indoor plumbing. Everything I believe in, I can prove, if you have the time, and some gear for experimenting. The same science I believe in, is an integrated seamless whole. No one part of science contradict any other, When it APEARSE so, then a new discovery is soon to follow. The entire canvas is not filled in yet, but atom bombs, and antibiotics wouldn't work if we were clueless.
Once again, the burden of proof is on YOU! Present, GOD. Order, GOD. Inspection GOD. Right shoulder GOD. I can prove everything I believe in, can you? If not, then this is faith, a subject I don't discuss, and you shouldn't HERE either. Unless this is in the context of bunkum, to be debunked. That IS what this whole catagory is about, right?
And don't cop out on the old, "there are forces of nature, not visible, that I believe in." I will drop a rock on your head, to demonstrate gravity. I will shock you with electricity, to prove the exsistance magnetism, and leptons in general. I will either fry you from a distance, or blast you to bits a little closer to the a bomb, to prove strong and weak nuclear forces.
It is not that I ignore god, it is that I see nothing to ignore. There has to BE something, to ignore something. Or do you ignore santa claus?
Very much like the jews, in their faith. They do not reject the messiah, they jusy do not see one in jesus to reject in the first place.
Present your case. Provide references, or independantly verifiable experiments. Bible thumping just won't cut it with this crowd. To those of you who believe as I do, don't let fools like this take you out of your game plan. The buden of proof is on the maker of ANY claim. Anything else is futile, as once you accept the first premis, the rest must follow. You swallowed the mountain, why are you choking on the grain of sand!
Once you swallow the exsistance of the supernatural, all logic is out the window.
Shaolin,
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF. Belief in god(s) is a matter of FAITH, and as such, is not open to rational discusion. If you care to argue points of faith, make that your argument. NOT here.
I can not PROVE there is no god(s), any more than you can PROVE there is no santa claus, living at the north pole, using magic, that doesn't obey normal physical laws.Because, after all, he's using MAGIC, so even normal methods of detection, and logical thinking, are no good! Because MAGIC is powerful.
It is NEVER possible to conclusivly prove a negative, because new evidence, supporting your claim, can be discovered in some future time. That is why the scientific method, at which you seem so ignorant, only acknownledges the the positive proof, of something being true. (note to the thick headed, that something has to BE, {that is to say exsist}, to be true.) From there, logic, the idea that a thing can not BE, and NOT BE, at the same time, tells us that if a statement is not true, it can not be true at the same time.
You must PROVE, that god exsists, before this becomes anything more than a discussion of faith, and thus not logical.
Faith is defined as a belief in something with no proof, or proof to the contrary.
Faith and logic are at odds, and logic says only one can be true. Faith says otherwise. Well, with that kind of reasoning, even if you are right, you are wrong, because both can be true!
Your kind never has proof, and plays to the courtroom burden of proof fiasco. This is not a court of law, and I don't have to give you the benifit of the doubt. On the contrary, YOU are the one making outlandish claims, demanding to be taken as seriously as the people who make lasers, and indoor plumbing. Everything I believe in, I can prove, if you have the time, and some gear for experimenting. The same science I believe in, is an integrated seamless whole. No one part of science contradict any other, When it APEARSE so, then a new discovery is soon to follow. The entire canvas is not filled in yet, but atom bombs, and antibiotics wouldn't work if we were clueless.
Once again, the burden of proof is on YOU! Present, GOD. Order, GOD. Inspection GOD. Right shoulder GOD. I can prove everything I believe in, can you? If not, then this is faith, a subject I don't discuss, and you shouldn't HERE either. Unless this is in the context of bunkum, to be debunked. That IS what this whole catagory is about, right?
And don't cop out on the old, "there are forces of nature, not visible, that I believe in." I will drop a rock on your head, to demonstrate gravity. I will shock you with electricity, to prove the exsistance magnetism, and leptons in general. I will either fry you from a distance, or blast you to bits a little closer to the a bomb, to prove strong and weak nuclear forces.
It is not that I ignore god, it is that I see nothing to ignore. There has to BE something, to ignore something. Or do you ignore santa claus?
Very much like the jews, in their faith. They do not reject the messiah, they jusy do not see one in jesus to reject in the first place.
Present your case. Provide references, or independantly verifiable experiments. Bible thumping just won't cut it with this crowd. To those of you who believe as I do, don't let fools like this take you out of your game plan. The buden of proof is on the maker of ANY claim. Anything else is futile, as once you accept the first premis, the rest must follow. You swallowed the mountain, why are you choking on the grain of sand!
Once you swallow the exsistance of the supernatural, all logic is out the window.
Hmmmmmm.
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
"It is happening now, It has happened before, It will surely happen again."
Oldest member of SD.net, not most mature.
Brotherhood of the Monkey
-
EmperorChrostas the Cruel
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 1710
- Joined: 2002-07-09 10:23pm
- Location: N-space MWG AQ Sol3 USA CA SV
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Antediluvian
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 593
- Joined: 2002-07-09 08:46pm
Nope: Do you actually know anything about the religion of Zoroaster? It's historical fact that Judaism borrowed many of it's doctrines to become what it is today, and through it, Christianity.ShAoLiN wrote:(Proven: You haven't proved anything. All you did was make an unsupported claim. The Christian Religion incorporates various beliefs and morals from earlier pagan religions, like the religion of Zoroaster.)
nope.. Zoroaster is more a early form of buddhism, or hinduism, than christianity.
(There: So? The Bible endorses such things. And we have plenty of knowledge to judge Yaweh, no matter what immoral things the people of the destroyed cities may or may not have done, that's no excuse for killing pregnant women or children, or ordering their deaths.)
you cant judge anyone.. i cant judge anyone.. maybe you're arrogant enough to think you can, but i wouldnt trust you or anyone else to do a decent job of it.. you love judging people too much.. it blinds you.
when the US dropped the atomic bombs on nagasaki and hiroshima.. do you think that spared women? children? the unborn? Does a President who declares war on another country become an immoral butcher? its a fact of life, at times when the situation becomes kill or be killed.. there isnt much of a choice in the matter..
(The Bible doesn't support reincarnation, by the way.)
it doesnt support or denounce reincarnation one way or the other.. but, you need to keep in mind, that God could have ways of working things out, that we aren't aware of.
(Defend: Because they're part of your religion, simply put. You seem to think Christians and the other followers of Yaweh are so moral, so you must explain their actions and defend their reasoning and justification.)
Everyone should have to answer for their actions.. how much is a clear conscience worth these days, eh?
("Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."5 (Hitler obviously believed in a supreme being)
that ideal contradicts many christian teachings.. as do many of his others, hence, he wasnt a follower of christianity but someone who made up his own policies concerning jews. just as bin laden claims to be a muslim, and ignores islamic beliefs - or bends them to suit his own purposes.
that you ignore this.. and think you're "winning," an argument or some nonsense only lessens your own credibility.
Judge: I can when they commit such horrible crimes such as the slaughter of children. It's one thing to kill armed soldiers in war, and another to purposely seek out and murder children and pregnant women.
And yes, civilians are killed in war, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Yaweh deliberately wanted unarmed civilians to be killed, and the Hebrews followed his orders.
A little different from what the President did. Plus, he and the US felt guilt over what they did, unlike the Hebrews of that time and Yaweh.
Support: It kinda doesn't, but I don't believe in Yaweh or reincarnation, so it's irrelavant.
Everyone: Glad you agree. EVERYONE should have to answer for their actions.
Hitler: He was a Christian fundamentalist, so don't try to deny it. You have the proof. Bin Laden is a Muslim, a Muslim fundamentalist.
And I'm not ignoring anything, you are ignoring the truth.
Last edited by Antediluvian on 2002-08-04 04:12am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stuart Mackey
- Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
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Trouble is trying to get him to provide proof. You can provide proof, evidence of one thing or another, and he is like 'Follow the Lord and ye shall be saved!' aka willfull ignorance in the face of logic and rationality.Emperor Chrostas the Crue wrote:Yo guys, and gals.. You are playing his stupid little game.
Shaolin,
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF. Belief in god(s) is a matter of FAITH, and as such, is not open to rational discusion. If you care to argue points of faith, make that your argument. NOT here.
snip
Once you swallow the exsistance of the supernatural, all logic is out the window.
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Antediluvian
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Bashing: Sorry, it's still bashing to say that all athiests are automatically selfish simply because they're athiests.ShAoLiN wrote:(Bashed: That athiest/automatically selfish idea is bashing.)
Its not bashing.. although there might be a few atheists around here, who could teach me something of that.. maybe someday you'll understand the difference.
(Envision: That doesn't disprove Yaweh isn't a butcher.)
so a general who gives orders for his men to go into battle is a butcher? Or, whatever president ordered the dropping of a-bombs on japan is a butcher? you ignore facts to achieve labeling of God as a butcher...... and are hypocritical in doing it.
(Maybe: You're not looking hard enough.)
im thinking.. you're the one's who are blind.
(Guilt: Good for you. But i was referring to the fact that you seem to think that just because people reject Yaweh, and they have more happiness and less guilt as a result, that means they're immoral.)
you take my quotes out of context.. nit-picking and trying to find some tiny morsel of fact to slander me with.. its weak.. ya'all are making atheists look bad.
(Impression: You're changing your position, I see.)
That was my position all along......
Ignore: No, my deluded friend, you are ignoring facts. Anyone who seeks out or wants his followers to seek and murder civilians, especially innocent children, IS A BUTCHER, especially if they feel absolutely no guilt about it afterwards.
Thinking: I'm afraid you are the one who is blinded, by propaganda and religious dogma. I see all too clearly.
Out of Context: Spare me the wounded innocent act. You don't have a leg to stand on here.
Position: First, you said all athiests were inherently selfish, and then you said it was only your impression that some of them may be inherently selfish. Which is it?
In other words, you say all athiests are immoral, and then you change it and say maybe some are immoral. Make up your mind.
And those comments you made that athiests ignore morality to indulge themselves infers that you believe athiests are immoral.
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Darth Wong
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This ShAoLiN guy is pretty damned funny. He tries to excuse God's genocidal murder of women and children by likening it to modern military leaders?
Two points:
Two points:
- God has his followers massacre women and children after capturing them. We're not talking about collateral deaths during battle; we're talking about lining up helpless captives and murdering them. It is directly akin to the Nazi death camps, not bombing runs.
- Is ShAoLiN trying to say that God's morality is comparable to that of President Bush or LBJ? Why should we worship a deity whose morality can be compared to people like that? Do we answer questions of morality by asking "what would George W. Bush do in this situation?" Of course not.
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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lgot
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His need to clean up the christian process is so big that he try to sell such lie of a formation of nation - Jews nation, not christian nation like he seems to think the bible was all about - without any shameful act of violence or murderer, when Its almost impossible to find such nations in our history. He must make the christian story looks clean and nice and doing that he almost show how he actually disaprove such acts as well.
Its funny how he claims to know the bible and ask about where there is murderer ordened by God or Slavery...Imagine the same god that told Moses to attack a village, kill the males and get the women to them.
Would be so easy to take off God, and judge it from the human point of view, because that was a human descision. But God is something we "cannt" understand to argue with the ethic consequenses of his decisions...No wonder that I think reading the bible is the best way to create atheists.
Its funny how he claims to know the bible and ask about where there is murderer ordened by God or Slavery...Imagine the same god that told Moses to attack a village, kill the males and get the women to them.
Would be so easy to take off God, and judge it from the human point of view, because that was a human descision. But God is something we "cannt" understand to argue with the ethic consequenses of his decisions...No wonder that I think reading the bible is the best way to create atheists.
Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.
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LordShaithis
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Hey Shao, if you think the NT doesn't contradict itself, open it up and tell me the last words Jesus spoke before dying on the cross. I guarantee that whatever you answer with, I'll be able to quote at least two more completely different versions, directly from the Bible.
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
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Master of Ossus
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BTW, I loved the part when Shaolin tried to say that people have been trying to disprove Christianity for 2000 years and it hasn't happened. I should point out that people have been trying to PROVE Christianity's major beliefs for 2000 years and it hasn't happened. Christianity, like almost all religions, is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It cannot be proven or disproven.
And yes, Shaolin is a complete idiot who is full of self-contradictions and double-standards.
What would George W. Bush think?
And yes, Shaolin is a complete idiot who is full of self-contradictions and double-standards.
What would George W. Bush think?
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."