Manticore vs. The Tau

[HRogge]

That seems to imply they never enter the Warp, merely using the boundary zone as a sort of extreme acceleration zone. While slower than IoM, it almost sounds like they fly without the wierdness and lack of precision of an Imperium warp jump.

Without FTL sensors they would be forced to fly blind through the boundary of the warp ( someone said FTL in WH40 was psibased and the Tau have no psionic potential ).

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Ahem.

Exiting the Warp is pretty random; it simply happens wherever the Navigator forsees as safest or most viable.

That said, the Tau, being psychically inert, do not really travel through the Warp as such (where they would quite literally be eaten alive), instead skirting along the edges so to speak. While much slower, this would imply greater accuracy and less randomness in terms of both accuracy and Warp-based oddities (such as arriving at one's destination before actually embarking).

Anyways, I'll pour over the Tau Codex and see if I can dig up anything relevant to this debate.

[Akaramu Shinja]

I don't think FTL sensors have anything to do with Warp navigation. It's more "magical" than science. Hence the need for psykers instead of sophisticated sensor technology. In any case, what is the word on 40k and FTL sensors?

[Black Admiral]

In any case, what is the word on 40k and FTL sensors?

They've got them, Sabbat Martyr confirms this; the CVB Omnia Vincit was receiving realtime sensor data at multiple AUs (9 point something IIRC).

[HRogge]

I don't think FTL sensors have anything to do with Warp navigation. It's more "magical" than science. Hence the need for psykers instead of sophisticated sensor technology.

THe problem is if you don't have FTL sensors you cannot look ahead ( into real space )... so you will fly blind.

In any case, what is the word on 40k and FTL sensors?

I would like to know this too... FTL sensors could be a BIG tactical advantage for the HH side.

[Akaramu Shinja]

THe problem is if you don't have FTL sensors you cannot look ahead ( into real space )... so you will fly blind.

As far as I know, they can't see into real-space from The Warp. The Warp is another "dimension" of sorts, so FTL sensors or not, it won't matter as they can't see. They use psykers to travel through the mess that is the warp by following other psychic beacons of some kind. Anyway, this isn't really relevant as the Tau don't use the same method of FTL as everyone else.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

That seems to imply they never enter the Warp, merely using the boundary zone as a sort of extreme acceleration zone. While slower than IoM, it almost sounds like they fly without the wierdness and lack of precision of an Imperium warp jump.

I think you're right. In one of the BFG fluff books, it states that the Tau have more precision than IoM vessels do and it implies that the first experimental Tau jumps were made well insystem. It seems that the Tau can jump in-system with far more control than the IoM or Chaos.

However, most Tau escorts do not have any jump drive, and the escorts that do have drives can only make one jump and then have to "recharge" or something for several hours, so only the capital ships would be able to make any kind of tactical jumps without exhausting their engines.

[Akaramu Shinja]

However, most Tau escorts do not have any jump drive, and the escorts that do have drives can only make one jump and then have to "recharge" or something for several hours, so only the capital ships would be able to make any kind of tactical jumps without exhausting their engines.

But the capital ships do have gravitic hooks they use to carry their escorts with them.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Yes, but it still limits the maneuvers they can pull. It will be a lot harder for Tau fleets to flank someone or pull off a pincer maneuver with FTL when their ships have to hook up for each jump.

Especially when the escorts' minimum speed (acceleration?) is almost equal to the capships' maximum. The escorts would have to retreat to get into jump formation.

[HRogge]

HH ships can get into hyperspace pretty fast unless they are inside the hyperlimit or too fast. I think they can jump within a minute or two, maybe even faster.

[The Dark]

First, thanks for the quote, Connor. I only have the e-book of OBS right now, and poring through that would kill my eyes.

Current (real life) x-ray lasers only lase out one end, based on drawings from Livermore, so I don't see why Honorverse ones would suddenly lase in both directions.

Source? Googling doesn't reveal a great deal of data on x-ray laser mirrors (and the applications that do seem to suggest highly specialized usages that may not be consistent with a bomb-pumped x-ray weapon.)

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Dunn.html has a diagram about 60% of the way down showing how their X-ray laser works. It appears to only generate the laser in one direction.

They shotgun if firing into a fleet. Since each laser head is independently targetable, if there's only one target they'll all aim at it.

Are you referring to this?

The terminal bus of a laser head mounts sophisticated targeting systems and powerful attitude thrusters to enable it to align itself so as to direct the greatest number of bomb-pumped laser beams at the target, but it is also designed to have a "porcupine" effect, radiating lasers in all directions. Each laser inflicts less damage than a direct hit could have, but the chances of a hit—even multiple hits—from a single missile are greatly increased.

The laser heads "spread" out the shots to increase the chances of hitting a target (which makse sense since they have trouble getting a precise fix on the target's location "in" the Wedge.) But this also results in the fact that they tend to achieve fewer overall hits compared to the number of "lasers" generated (which is actually consistent with the novels.) The only way they can maximize the number of hits is to get closer so that the beams have a shorter distance to travel before spreading significantly. Any ability they have to control the aim of individual lasers is going to be limited by the fixed nature of the rods (they can probably shift the angle some, but not alot.)

And as a note, if they could somehow "redirect" the individual lasers to concentrate most or all of the energy on a single target, building such a capability into the missile (its possible they COULD do it, I believe RL ones could) would take up volume that could otherwise be dedicated to the warhead, thus meaning that a laser head is giong to carry a much smaller "warhead" relative to a standard nuke (which is goign to be tru anyways because of the lasing rods at least, if not the other components like targeting gear and whatnot.) So this is another factor that suggests a direct 'nuke to laser head' comparison is at best generous.

No, I was referring to a post Weber made to ALT.BOOKS:

Capital missiles carry multiple laser heads, each equipped with its own extremely powerful set of reaction thrusters and independent targeting systems which operate in tandem with one another. In essence, a capital missile launches a small cluster of laser heads which separate themselves physically from one another but combine the input from all of their tracking systems in an effort to obtain the most effective firing positions for each independent warhead.

(available at this page). It seems the hedgehog effect is optional, rather than mandatory, at least for a capital missile (which I didn't catch before...it doesn't discuss whether smaller vessels have the same capability).

[consequences]

HH ships can get into hyperspace pretty fast unless they are inside the hyperlimit or too fast. I think they can jump within a minute or two, maybe even faster.

We know as of Short Victorious War that it takes Peep battlecruisers eight minutes to recharge the generators to breach the Alpha Wall after coming out of hyper(failed ambush of Bellerophon by Rear Admirtal Pierre). But the fact that a few destroyers made it out of White Haven's wormhole holocaust in Echoes of Honor implies that it doesn't necessarily take that long all the time.

[Nephtys]

Wait, earlier in this post wasn't it said that 40K missiles penetrate their univ shields because they move too slowly to be blocked? How slow would that be?

[Akaramu Shinja]

Wait, earlier in this post wasn't it said that 40K missiles penetrate their univ shields because they move too slowly to be blocked? How slow would that be?

Tau shields aren't the same technology as Imperial shields. But yeah I'd like to see more on this apparent tactic, as it doesn't jive with everything else well. Everything else being all the other races shields.

[Imperial Overlord]

Wait, earlier in this post wasn't it said that 40K missiles penetrate their univ shields because they move too slowly to be blocked? How slow would that be?

The characteristics of void shield technology aren't consistent or particularily detailed, as my previous post notes. And their are other shield systems than void shields. I know that's vague and annoying, but that's the way it is.

[Connor MacLeod]

First, thanks for the quote, Connor. I only have the e-book of OBS right now, and poring through that would kill my eyes.

It was during the battle with the Sirius. Second hit I think.

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Dunn.html has a diagram about 60% of the way down showing how their X-ray laser works. It appears to only generate the laser in one direction.

I see. Thanks for the link. However, I'm not sure this has much if any relevance to a bomb-pumped x-ray laser. They don't make reference to any sort of mirror, and the concept is suspiciously similar to a Free-electron laser (well you're using a plasma in thise case, but either can be used as a lasing medium) while the bomb-pumped x-ray laser uses lasing rods (the rods will only create a laser of the same frequency as the EM energy striking it, which is why you needed a nuclear detonation to generate the x-rays.)

Basically, the two don't look to be remotely comparable for the purposes of a laser head. sorry.

No, I was referring to a post Weber made to ALT.BOOKS:

Capital missiles carry multiple laser heads, each equipped with its own extremely powerful set of reaction thrusters and independent targeting systems which operate in tandem with one another. In essence, a capital missile launches a small cluster of laser heads which separate themselves physically from one another but combine the input from all of their tracking systems in an effort to obtain the most effective firing positions for each independent warhead.

(available at this page). It seems the hedgehog effect is optional, rather than mandatory, at least for a capital missile (which I didn't catch before...it doesn't discuss whether smaller vessels have the same capability).

Emphasis mine. What he's referring to is that each individual laser head (the warhead itself) can be independently angled (via reaction thrusters) for maximum effect (much like as described in TS,VW.) You're moving the warhead itself, not hte individual lasing rods. They still employ the hedgehog effect (however each laser head has fewer rods than smaller missiles, which is offset by the multiple warheads present.)

This is rather odd, since in Ashes of Honor the Ghost Rider missiles we see are obviously single warheads (and the capital missiles don't look much different period.) with around 25-30 lasing rods at least (but no more than 50.)

Regardless, what I mentioned before still applies. If they DO have the ability to angle the individual lasing rods (which IIRC the real life variant could) they obviously can't change the angle significantly (meaning that its unlikely they can direct all the individual lasers at a target.) and that incorporating this ability would put even GREATER volume constraints on what has to be an already-decreased-yield nuclear warhead (because of the laser heads, reaction thrusters, etc.) So again, disregarding all this simply brings us back to the "generous upper limit" I've already established, because I am already ignoring the "porcupine" effect and the volume constraint differences between a laser head and a regular nuke.)

And just for the sake of argument, I'm sure someone will suggest that since they use gravity lenses and whatnot in their warship energy armaments, they might alos employ them in the laser heads to concentrate more of the energy into the lasing rods. Aside frrom the fact that no evidence exists for such a capability in a bomb-pumped laser, I would also point out that the fact that they've never done this for their regular nukes (aside from what OBS tells us) suggests they don't have the ability.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would like to know this too... FTL sensors could be a BIG tactical advantage for the HH side.

Maybe.. IF Tau ships are as detectable (or moreso) as an Honorverse ship with a gigantic gravitational wedge. (and yes I know about the grav plates, but thats at a range of tens of thousands of km, ,at best..)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Tau ships generate a 'gravity sail' IIRC but it's not a vast 300km wide thing like Honorverse impellar wedge. In fact...and i may be wrong so anyone knows for sure correct me...but it maybe a kind of 'skin conformal field' deal.

[Nephtys]

I would like to know this too... FTL sensors could be a BIG tactical advantage for the HH side.

Maybe.. IF Tau ships are as detectable (or moreso) as an Honorverse ship with a gigantic gravitational wedge. (and yes I know about the grav plates, but thats at a range of tens of thousands of km, ,at best..)

Well, earlier it WAS stated that they use gravimetric propulsion. That's likely to generate a far larger signature than artificial gravity would anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, earlier it WAS stated that they use gravimetric propulsion. That's likely to generate a far larger signature than artificial gravity would anyway.

Not all gravitational fields are equal though. if you go by the "ability to red-shift light" interpretation of a wedge... the wedge's strength will be something like e14-e15 gees (IIRC the last discussion).. which is abnromally high (and rather against the "hundreds of thousands of gees" Weber claims, ,m uch less the "ten thousand gees" of the first two novels.)

Something generating only 3000 gee fields, by comparison, would be trillions of times harder ot detect.

[HRogge]

Not all gravitational fields are equal though. if you go by the "ability to red-shift light" interpretation of a wedge... the wedge's strength will be something like e14-e15 gees (IIRC the last discussion).. which is abnromally high (and rather against the "hundreds of thousands of gees" Weber claims, ,m uch less the "ten thousand gees" of the first two novels.)

Something generating only 3000 gee fields, by comparison, would be trillions of times harder ot detect.

At least we know they can track smaller fields... It's possible to see missiles and even counter missiles of your opponent on their sensors, so it might be a good chance... in addition to the FTL recon drone of course.

[Connor MacLeod]

At least we know they can track smaller fields... It's possible to see missiles and even counter missiles of your opponent on their sensors, so it might be a good chance... in addition to the FTL recon drone of course.

those smaller fields are still immensely massive impeller wedges of *much greater strength*, unless the Tau likewise regularly employ light-bending gravitational fields. Same with counter missiles. (a wedge vastly larger than the source generating it and strong enough to bend light.)

[HRogge]

those smaller fields are still immensely massive impeller wedges of *much greater strength*, unless the Tau likewise regularly employ light-bending gravitational fields. Same with counter missiles. (a wedge vastly larger than the source generating it and strong enough to bend light.)

I know... but at least the impellers of a counter missile are not hundreds of km long.

Hmm... light bending fields... what kind of g-forces do you need to bent light away from your ship ( it depends of the size of the field of course ) ?

[Akaramu Shinja]

Some new stuff has popped up. That would be the new Tau Commerce Protection fleet. The fluff is long and explains that while the other fleet is their mainstay, they produced these as pure combat ships, going off the knowledge gained from the Orca and Hero classes of ships. Apparently the older ships (Orca and Hero) were developed with modularity in mind, while the new ships aren't. Making them expensive and harder to build, but are "sleaker" and more akin to Tau ground warmachine designs.

It also indicates that while it's called the Commerce Protection fleet, it is actually their most advanced ships and are used only when needed.

Things of note from this:
They have two new escorts. One of which (the Castellan class) is capable of FTL travel without gravitic hooks. The other is better than an Orca and carried on the new Tau battleships. Yes, they now have battleships! As well as the new Protector cruiser, which is far superior to the Hero.

Another thing not brought up is the Demiurg. The Tau employ their ships in battle occasionally. Would they be allowed according to the OP?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Some new stuff has popped up. That would be the new Tau Commerce Protection fleet. The fluff is long and explains that while the other fleet is their mainstay, they produced these as pure combat ships, going off the knowledge gained from the Orca and Hero classes of ships. Apparently the older ships (Orca and Hero) were developed with modularity in mind, while the new ships aren't. Making them expensive and harder to build, but are "sleaker" and more akin to Tau ground warmachine designs.

It also indicates that while it's called the Commerce Protection fleet, it is actually their most advanced ships and are used only when needed.

Things of note from this:
They have two new escorts. One of which (the Castellan class) is capable of FTL travel without gravitic hooks. The other is better than an Orca and carried on the new Tau battleships. Yes, they now have battleships! As well as the new Protector cruiser, which is far superior to the Hero.

Another thing not brought up is the Demiurg. The Tau employ their ships in battle occasionally. Would they be allowed according to the OP?

Where is this from? A website? I'd love to read some of the fluff, so if you could drop a link i'd be greatful