Chaos gods show up in B5verse.

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SAMAS
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Post by SAMAS »

Junghalli wrote:
SAMAS wrote:In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's clearly stated that pariahs, also known as untouchables, tend to automatically repulse people, even Blunts(non-Psyckers) who don't know a thing about the person in question. You just know that something is very, very, wrong about them
Yeah that's basically what Nitram was saying. Normal humans percieve something different about a pariah, and the natural human thought process seems to be that different=wrong.
Trying to get a date must be tough if you're one of these guys. I wonder if (in-universe) some of the dweebs and loosers of the (modern) world aren't pariahs...
It's not that simple. It's not a matter of different = wrong. It's a matter of wrong = wrong.
Dan Abnett wrote:Untouchables were rare, and almost impossible to create artificially. They have a negative presence in the warp that renders them virtually immune to psychic powers, which in turn makes them potent anti-psycker weapons. The side-effect of their psychic blankness is the unpleasent disturbance that accompanies them, the waves of fear and revulsion they trigger in those they meet. -- Eisenhorn trilogy(Xenos), page 61
What you and Nitram are referring to is the Warp Signature of a soul, which does increase with one's psychic potential and ability. For example, if a normal 40K'er human appeared as a flashlight in the warp, then an Eldar Farseer, a powerful psycker, would be a searchlight, a Tau, with no psychic potential whatsoever, would be a lit match, and a Pariah would be a black hole.
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Post by SAMAS »

Or if you're a daemon, a steak, a buffet, a cheese sandwich, and a bottle of poison. :mrgreen:
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Post by SirNitram »

SAMAS wrote:
Junghalli wrote:
SAMAS wrote:In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, it's clearly stated that pariahs, also known as untouchables, tend to automatically repulse people, even Blunts(non-Psyckers) who don't know a thing about the person in question. You just know that something is very, very, wrong about them
Yeah that's basically what Nitram was saying. Normal humans percieve something different about a pariah, and the natural human thought process seems to be that different=wrong.
Trying to get a date must be tough if you're one of these guys. I wonder if (in-universe) some of the dweebs and loosers of the (modern) world aren't pariahs...
It's not that simple. It's not a matter of different = wrong. It's a matter of wrong = wrong.
I could point out that we're waiting for you to prove this, but then again, your inability to back up points is legendary.
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Post by SAMAS »

SirNitram wrote:
SAMAS wrote:
Junghalli wrote: Yeah that's basically what Nitram was saying. Normal humans percieve something different about a pariah, and the natural human thought process seems to be that different=wrong.
Trying to get a date must be tough if you're one of these guys. I wonder if (in-universe) some of the dweebs and loosers of the (modern) world aren't pariahs...
It's not that simple. It's not a matter of different = wrong. It's a matter of wrong = wrong.
I could point out that we're waiting for you to prove this, but then again, your inability to back up points is legendary.
Denial of proof does not equal absence of proof. :D

Seriously though, see my above post(hint: Tau don't have an effect like Pariahs). I'll look for something more detailes if you wanna get specific, but the Eisenhorn trilogy's a huge book.
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Post by SirNitram »

SAMAS wrote:Denial of proof does not equal absence of proof. :D
If only you'd actually take this to heart, instead of spitting it out like a pithy phrase. There's no proof backing up your claim.
Seriously though, see my above post(hint: Tau don't have an effect like Pariahs). I'll look for something more detailes if you wanna get specific, but the Eisenhorn trilogy's a huge book.
Because a Tau has a soul.. Just a very minor one.
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Post by Tasoth »

Why everyone thinks Chaos cults have this easy in road for possession is typically how they work. For the most part, one or two people who are marked servants of chaos infiltrate a planet and go to grounds, finding more people like themselves to corrupt. This takes a long time, which isn't uncommon in 40k, and they spread while keeping themselves hidden. Then what usually happens is Chaos gives them a heads up on an imminent invasion that trips all those with psyker powers on the planet's sense of foreboding and kicks their sanity off the cliff. Depending on how early they get this, several things happen. A.) The IoM shows up, engages in battle with Chaos, B.) Chaos arrives, all hell breaks loose, chaos wins, C.) The Emperor pulls strings, has a battle group waiting, Chaos is handed it's asss. Now option B is what brings everyone to the cults because the cultists who have given their mind and soul to chaos bellow that they are salvation. People flock the cults thinking they are offering salvation, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they have fallen to chaos. I belive in Execution Hour that alot of the Cultists who joined when they were told they could be saved but when Abbadon showed up with the planet destroyer and they knew they were boned, people resumed praying to the emperor, realized that they made the wrong choice or other actions that showed they weren't Chaos'.

As for the B5, there are no doubt individuals in the Younger Races who will willing sign up to Chaos, but without the ability to put the fear of death into a planet, they won't get very big and will probably be put down hard when they surface.
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Post by SAMAS »

SirNitram wrote:
SAMAS wrote:Denial of proof does not equal absence of proof. :D
If only you'd actually take this to heart, instead of spitting it out like a pithy phrase. There's no proof backing up your claim.
Lemme spell it out: T-A-U.

The Tau are essentially the traditional Sci-Fi race of 40K. They have no (warp)psychic potential at all, yet they do not have the same effect on humans as Paraiah's do. Therefore, it's not the same thing as just being non-psychic and "different."
Because a Tau has a soul.. Just a very minor one.
Right, and Pariahs are basically soulless. That's my point, not yours.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Let me try this again, now that my keyboard isn't possessed.... I ripped this bit from a forum ancaris pointed me at, save me typing out my views particularly, apologise for the tangent it may go off on.
The Necrontyr may have had some sort of "soul" before they became the Necrontyr, but I would hesitate to describe it as anything more than a nucleus of the warp souls that the psychic races the Old Ones created.

A warp soul being a psychic pattern that seems to "align" warp energy with it, akin to a magnet and iron filings perhaps ? its a limited analogy, but I think it gets the idea across that the more warp souls that exist that have a specific range of ideas and emotions, and the more powerful individual souls are, the stronger warp entities that are attuned to that range are. When a soul leaves its physical "host" it joins the larger pattern that it is aligned with.

The psychic potential of the necrontyr was clearly extremely limited, as they weren't y'know, exactly legendary psykers ;)

Plus there is the unescapable and supported fact. C'tan feasting on a sentient organism do not consume the warp soul, they EXPLICITLY do not consume the soul, upon destruction of the host body, and absorption of its physical energies, its "essence" to quote the Deciever, which appears to be some sort of bio-chemical potential energy, perhaps combined with natural electrical fields, etc .

The Souls of the Necrontyr, as Ancaris has proved via evidence, (note theres another little example, when Abaddon interrogates a Daemon as to the contents of the "temple" in the IIRC Noctis labyrinth on mars) MUST have entered the warp and been consumed by the entities there, or simply dissapated due to their probably extreme lack of psychic energy...lets face it, in Farseer by Bill King, Auric, a Farseer describes the average greater potential of the Eldar soul allowing them to survive death as a sentient soul, and suffer unending torment due to their lack of any "pattern" or diety attuned to their pattern apart from Slaanesh, unlike the average human.

If the average human has more psychic potential than the average Necrontyr...VERY VERY likely indeed, then the Necrons souls will simply have dissapated.

whats left of the Necrontyr is some sort of energy pattern, that has been loaded into whatever technology serves as hardware for the Necron constructs. Its actual a rather apt method of cruel abuse, pretty appropriate for the C'tan, rather than simply programming the constructs, you transfer an operating system and some rudimentary imperatives, i.e. obey, harvest, etc etc, to the hardware, an electrical simulacrum of the Necrontyr, getting rid of useless memories and desires, as well as something probably quite elusive, and potentially dangerous to the necrons in their closest servants. Vastly reducing the potential for subversion via psychic means, (obviously machines can be psychically manipulated, but if you are powerful enough to telekinetically fuck with something like a Necron construct, its pretty likely you could bugger up an organic with barely an effort)

in summary.

Proof has been provided of the Necrontyr having limited in comparison to human psychic potential,

Proof has been provided of the Necrontyr being consumed by the C'tan, in such a fashion as to destroy their physical forms, and cast their souls adrift in the warp, while retaining a wholly reduced version of their intelligence to use as a method of animating technological creations.

Given the limited potential of Necrontyr souls, and the comparative example of humans NOT remaining sentient after death unless of above average psychic/mental strength, the likelyhood of said souls rebinding to the Necrons is low at best, and would require proof to counter the weight of evidence against it.


However, the problem remains of the Pariahs, also described as "souless" much in the same fashion as Necron constructs hosting the mentality of former Necrontyr. (i.e. everything classed as "necron")

Necrons do not have an untouchable quality, which would immediately point to two conclusions, That the Necrons DO have souls and are thus souls and mental patterns in robots, or that they are low-level untouchables...

Just to note, I think Drachenfels analogy of anti-matter and matter as pertains to pariahs and the warp is complete bollocks. does a pariah annhilate when exposed to the warp ?

ummmmmm.....no!'

Pariahs actually seem to function as an insulating or non-conductive material and electricity, warp energy is directed at a "bubble" of the pariah energy, and is unable to pass through, its worth noting that, as with real non-conducting materials, you sling enough energy at em, and they can be destroyed. The Eisenhorn trilogy provides an example of this, with an Untouchable being mentally destroyed by a massively powerful psychic entity, i.e. a Daemonically tainted Titan AI.

The principle of an insulating energy field seems to hold true, another analogy being a Tokamak, a shaped magnetic field retaining plasma.

Example, a psyker slings a ball of fire at you, if its warp energy, its a burst of energy that cannot pass through the insulating layer...if its a "normal" ball of fire, i.e. a light and heat emitting ball of gas, then it is being in some form contained by the application of warp energy to prevent it simply dissapating, possibly the input of energy as well, etc etc, so the ball of fire will simply emit all its energy, and without the artificial aid of warp manipulation, thats all she wrote. a Pariah should NOT be able to stop something using warp energy to ignite something, then telekinetically sling the burning object at a Pariah, unless the Warp user is within the insulating envelope of the pariah, in which case the Warp user cannot access the energies of the warp, his mental contact severed, in a similar fashion to slipping a non-conductive material between a battery and an electrical devices metal contact.

Anyway, back to the Necron souls and Pariah conundrum.

My theory, to reconcile the given evidence, i.e. Necrontyr description as "souless" Necrontyr being consumed and transferred by the C'tan, the consumption process universially described as setting the souls adrift to be consumed by Daemons, Necron constructs operating with Necron mental patterns NOT having a Pariah effect.

The Necron constructs with necron mental patterns, (mind rather than soul theory) possess the remnants of a Necrontyr sentience, which in all likelyhood DID make some tiny imprint upon the Warp before being " fed upon " by the C'tan.

This sentience is rudimentary in emotional and self generated ideological attitudes, as well as memory, this entails that it has a rudimentary warp presence, small as to be barely registering. Pariahs/untouchables are described as possessing a negative presence in the warp, i.e. casting a shadow, or dipping an impervious object into an ocean.

as a byproduct of this energy pattern, Necron constructs have a positive presence in the warp, because they DO have ideas, however these ideas are so faint and overridden by an overwhelming priority, to serve the C'tan, and obey their directives and the priorities of their engineered consiousness, that they are probably almost neutral. I would expect low end AIs in 40k to have a similar form of Warp presence, as 40k AIs can, and have become psychic entities. i.e. the Dreadclaw Assault craft, so clearly being organic is not a prerequisite of having a warp presence, however, having a Soul , i.e. a coherent pattern of ideas and emotions capable of collectively and proportionally, individually, exerting influence upon the energy of the warp definately requires more than the Necrons can be proven to possess. i.e. more than a rudimentary operating system.
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Post by SirNitram »

SAMAS wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
SAMAS wrote:Denial of proof does not equal absence of proof. :D
If only you'd actually take this to heart, instead of spitting it out like a pithy phrase. There's no proof backing up your claim.
Lemme spell it out: T-A-U.

The Tau are essentially the traditional Sci-Fi race of 40K. They have no (warp)psychic potential at all, yet they do not have the same effect on humans as Paraiah's do. Therefore, it's not the same thing as just being non-psychic and "different."
You're just illiterate, I see. Because right after you insist they must be just like Pariahs, and then you concede...
Because a Tau has a soul.. Just a very minor one.
Right, and Pariahs are basically soulless. That's my point, not yours.
So one has a soul and one doesn't. Ergo the effects are different. If only you weren't so dumb as to contradict yourself in your own posts...
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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:C'tan feasting on a sentient organism do not consume the warp soul, they EXPLICITLY do not consume the soul, upon destruction of the host body, and absorption of its physical energies, its "essence" to quote the Deciever, which appears to be some sort of bio-chemical potential energy, perhaps combined with natural electrical fields, etc .
Actually, they have a choice of doing so if they desire. While Mephet'ran and the Dragon do not, the Nightbringer does indeed eat warpsouls.
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Post by Lost Soal »

It can't be that Pariah's simply don't have a presence in the warp which gives the negative impact on humans for two reasons:

a) The Pariah's have the same effect on all species, whether human, eldar or a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
b) No one is bothered by vehicles, buildings or any normal material. Do they have a presence in the warp.

The fluff states spacifically that Pariah's give a negative (not ZERO) impression on the warp, similar to the Warp Shadow cast in a Hive fleets wake.

Ergo, the beings in B5 space could have no presence in the Warp but would not have the effects associated with Pariahs.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

t can’t be that Pariah’s simply don’t have a presence in the warp which gives the negative impact on humans for two reasons:

a) The Pariah’s have the same effect on all species, whether human, eldar or a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
b) No one is bothered by vehicles, buildings or any normal material. Do they have a presence in the warp.

The fluff states spacifically that Pariah’s give a negative (not ZERO) impression on the warp, similar to the Warp Shadow cast in a Hive fleets wake.
The shadow is caused by the sheer warp presence of the hive mind, in the same way that in the eye of chaos using the warp would be suicidal.

So probably A
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Post by white_rabbit »

NecronLord wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:C'tan feasting on a sentient organism do not consume the warp soul, they EXPLICITLY do not consume the soul, upon destruction of the host body, and absorption of its physical energies, its "essence" to quote the Deciever, which appears to be some sort of bio-chemical potential energy, perhaps combined with natural electrical fields, etc .
Actually, they have a choice of doing so if they desire. While Mephet'ran and the Dragon do not, the Nightbringer does indeed eat warpsouls.
ref ?
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Post by Lost Soal »

the .303 bookworm wrote:
t can’t be that Pariah’s simply don’t have a presence in the warp which gives the negative impact on humans for two reasons:

a) The Pariah’s have the same effect on all species, whether human, eldar or a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
b) No one is bothered by vehicles, buildings or any normal material. Do they have a presence in the warp.

The fluff states spacifically that Pariah’s give a negative (not ZERO) impression on the warp, similar to the Warp Shadow cast in a Hive fleets wake.
The shadow is caused by the sheer warp presence of the hive mind, in the same way that in the eye of chaos using the warp would be suicidal.

So probably A
You missunderstand.
They are both reasons why a Pariah is not just a person with no warp presence. They have the complete opposite to a standard warp soul.

The hive Warp Shadow has the same effect on the warp as a Pariah, just on a larger scale. Ships cannot travel through it, astropaths cannot communicate through it and the astronomican cannot penetrate it. A Pariah can inflict it on them though.
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