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If he had just plainly refused, maybe they would have taken it as a diplomatic "Oh, you shouldn't have!" in the face of gifts.

If he threatened them though.. what would they have thought? That it was a loyalty test? Bad translations?

You have a point there. If he ordered them to make up their own minds, that should leave it open for them to have some freedom of choice...


Luke could have just mind tricked their leaders into ordering them into battle. And while the Commando team would have been wiped out against the might of the tribe, Luke could have through their ranks easily enough (compare him vs. Jabba's men, and Anakin vs. the Tuskens).

vakundok wrote: So, the generators can be redundant, the dishes cannot. Then, the globes must contain a shield projector at least! Do not answer, I am just kidding.

Tough, I'm still gonna respond

Yeah, the dishes too are redundant. They act like projectors as well as generation systems. Indeed, one might imagine that like any forcee field, the shields would be vulnerable to attentuation over distances, so you would want to have multiple "generation points" to ensure fairly even strength across the entire shield surface. The weakest sections can "overlap" and possibly reinforce each other (although they are still the weakest sections also I believe - we know "gaps" can exist in shields canonically and officially.)

But more to the point, the design is made for flexibility. SW shields are designed to be composed of multiple overlapping but still independent segments - they can be independently manipulated, angles, raised, lowered, or otherwise altered to suit most purposes - from the "skin tight" shields we saw around Anakin's fighter in TPM to projecting shields thousands of kilometers to encompass the DS2 in ROTJ.

Well, I think it was a reasonable representation of the shield of the DS, which had tactical importance (unlike the shield around Endor, for example).

IIRC, the "beam" projected up from the Sanctuary moon somehow widens and "spreads" outwards to surround the DS2 - That would require some funky crap to get that to occur with shield geometry.

Because one (or many) portion is bad, you cannot ignore the whole, especially if there is at least one explanation why that portion is bad.
Multiple shield projectors on the surface of the moon do not resolve the most interesting thing, that 'they' projected the shield trough the DS, since there are points in(?) the shield which had no LOS to Endor.

All they have to do to include the DS2 as part of the network is extend the "section" of the shield near the DS2 so that it is "under" it. Daala did the same thing to protect Harrsk's ISD in Darksaber, and the "remote shield projection technology" used in Vector Prime is another example.

Besides, the tactical hologram is an important clue about the size of the DS2.

That has no bearing on whether or not the tactical hologram was incomplete or complete. That only indicates the fact that some of the data that WAS included was accurate. Do you think for some reason they aren't capable of filtering out unneccessary details?

With the dish and generator network (protecting the DS) idea, we now have to find an explanation why the DS became undefended after the loss of one generator+dish in the network ... I call it an unneccesery addition.

Why is it unneccesary? Because unneccessary dismissal of evidence is more convenient than harmonization? I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was the SW.com forums here!

I already explained how the DS2 could become undefended even with the presence of additional generators (gee the loss of one section of the shield - how complicated a concept to grasp) You'll note that I've provided evidence that actually SUPPORTS my positio adequately - I'm waiting to see evidence fo this "single shield generator protecting both the entire planet AND the station - especially since said dish is pointing up at the Death Star

Sorry if this is a dumb question here, but do we have proof that the shield protected the Endor moon itself as well as the DSII?

Or is that the ultimate question here... whether taking down the generator (leaving the DS2 undefended) also took down the shield over the forest moon?


Or are you saying that the Rebels could have somehow quickly rigged up the remaining generators to protect the moon at the last second?

Kurgan wrote:Sorry if this is a dumb question here, but do we have proof that the shield protected the Endor moon itself as well as the DSII?

Or is that the ultimate question here... whether taking down the generator (leaving the DS2 undefended) also took down the shield over the forest moon?


Or are you saying that the Rebels could have somehow quickly rigged up the remaining generators to protect the moon at the last second?

In the novelisation:
- there is no mention of multiple bases (I think they refer to it as 'the', not as 'the closest' or anything),
- the shield defended both the DS and Endor,
- when the generator/bunker/dish exploded both Endor and the DS became unshielded.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: Are you kidding me? The Third Reich "for a while" was better than the Weimar Republic? In what respects?

Hey, you said it. It had low crime, unity, stability and perhaps some purpose as well. It was no doubt a great boost in morale.

Um...how does this have to do with anything? You lost me.

I'd use an analogy: The Japanese were culpable in sneak attacking Pearl Harbor. But the only reason they were able to succeed so completely was because the US' guard was basically completely down. That poor readiness is the part that the US had to pay in its culpability

Did you forget which universe you're in?

You get my point, at least.

Why should the resistance fighters have to apologize for additional deaths that were directly caused by Hitler's Third Reich in the first place? Why should they have to apologize for trying to defend themselves from brutal oppression? Why should they have to apologize for fighting for their survival? I find this idea of apologizing for fighting the Nazis absolutely disgusting.

I didn't say apologize exactly. OK, take Alderaan (the Empire's greatest single atrocity by virtually everyone's vote). The Alderaanians were clearly partially culpable. They used a Princess and took advantage of her Diplomatic/Senatorial Status (which only is supposed to work because the Empire still somewhat respects that status) to give her a Government Diplomatic Ship (again taking advantage of the Laws to commit Treason) to sneak in and spy on a Restricted Imperial Area (Treason and Espionage, and the government is complicit in it because it was their ship, complete with their security people). Then the Princess, after being caught, lied to a senior Imperial officer (treason). Finally, they approached the planet. The Alderaanians, in their final idiocy and treasonous defiance, put up their impenetrable shield in the face of Imperial authority. They might as well have tried to fire at the DS while making childish taunts over the radio.

And since everyone figures Alderaan is basically a democracy with a Brit-style symbolic monarchy, the government presumably has the support of the people to do these treasonous acts. The punishment for Treason is Death or Labor Camp (not a great step up from Death). And when there are billions on a planet ... well ...

For more details

I wouldn't say that. There are tons of Imp fans here at SDN.

Well, based on the last thread on this topic, I think Ender is a bit on my side. Other than that, IP is the only major power, and his pro-Imperialism extends only to military and economical strength, not Imperial apologism.

I believe you have it reversed. The Empire was the government and the Imperials were the people that were moving towards treason, not the Rebellion! THEY were the ones that overthrew the Old Republic.

Funny, it was the Senate who voted to give Palpatine his "Unlimited Emergency Powers" (yeah, sure, Palpatine pulled strings, but which politician does not). The Republic actually kind of morphed into the Empire in a way which even the New Republic people had to admit was "mostly legitimate" (from Shield of Lies)

That can't be worse than totally annihilating a planet. At least the planet and most/some of its inhabitants would still be alive.

Depends on how stubborn they are. In a long seige, either the Alderaanians are self-independent (which is easily possible on a 2-bil population) or they aren't. If they are, the seige is just about useless and in fact may suggest Imperial indecisiveness (Nee-ha, you have planet busting Death Star and you don't dare use it, so BEH). If they aren't, and they don't give themselves up, they would starve, which is painful. Then when someone finally gets smart and open up the shield, the ISB would come in and drag off anybody that is Rebel. Since there is no doubt Treason in the Empire means either Kessel or Execution, that's not exactly a great outcome.

Is this in reference to Endor or something else?

Basically, some Imperials in the EU books are supposed to think the Empire could have blown up a moon for their demonstration instead of Alderaan. But both because of sheer Resolve Factor and the Shielding-is-Futile Factor (remember that those NR people can't even admit tiny things like Alderaan's shield), it doesnt' work. See ya tomorrow. I have to think of some answers for Connor.

Connor MacLeod: I think I can see your point now. So, In your opinion, Endor was covered with a full planetary shield network, and the shield (one or more sections) was extended, to encompass the DS. When the station 'under' the DS exploded, the other shield sections did not overlap enough to protect the DS. Right?

Questions:
1: - why they represented the shield as a near full globe (around the DS) in the hologram (I cannot remember the imperial monitor in the bunker)?
2: - why the other parts of the network failed making Endor undefended in the novelisation? EDIT: '... the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death Star, now floated in black, empty, unprotected space.'

Other questions to anyone:
1: Why the hell did the rebells make a combined fleet operation to protect the team, when an evacuation could have been started just after the shield went off?
2: - Watch the rebell fleet as the MF flees the exploding DS. If you are about to protect a tiny area on the surface, do you position your ships like those?
3: - What about that part of the novelisation, when Wedge and Lando leaves the DS, and the novelisation said that Endor provided safety for them? (I know I asked these, but this thread is so fast ...)

1: Why the hell did the rebells make a combined fleet operation to protect the team, when an evacuation could have been started just after the shield went off?

The Battle of Endor was in full swing when the shield went down. Do you really think that they could at that point afford to break off and go evacuate the team?

Connor MacLeod wrote:Yeah. So how the fuck did they protect the commandos from global firestorms , secondary radiation, grroundquakes, and blast wave effects from multiple impacts again?

For the thermal and EM effects, it should be possible to combine the fleet's shields and send a "stalk" down towards Endor to shelter them from it. If the protected volume is small enough, the energy absorption should be dissipatable with ships that have shield dissipations in the E24-E25W range in a small area (say a 10km wide sphere).

Validation
Given a 1E30J (your estimate, and it seems in the correct magnitude) total KE "wave" (the set of large and small chunks) impacting on a area about 14% of the total surface area of the 5200km radius Endor (Saxton's figures), spread out in time over perhaps 5 seconds (to account for the 450km radius of the sphere vs the 80km/s average debris velocity) will produce a average intensity over the primary affected area would be:

Endor surface area = 4pi(5.2E6^2) = 3.39E14m^2
Direct Impact Area = 0.14 * Endor surface area = 4.76E13m^2
Energy/Area = 1E30 / 4.76E13 = 2.1E16J/m^2
Avg Power/Area = 2.1E16J/m^2 / 5 seconds = 4.2E15W/m^2
Max Shield Spherical Surface Area = 1E25/4.2E15 = 2.38E9m^2
2.38E9m^2 = 4pi(r^2), so r = 13764m (spherical)

This calculation is an underestimate of the protectable area, as it does not take into account vertical propagation of the energy, which would reduce the average energy intensity. Still, the basic idea should be sound enough.

Blast energy should be somewhere in the 1E30J total energy input, but there might be momentum effects to consider. On the other hand, there is a lot of flex room in the long stalk, so stresses on the shield projectors should be reduced to a survivable level.

After that, if the groundshake cannot be blocked with the shields (treat it as a bunch of constant impacts), use a ship's tractor (apparently powerful enough in general to force compliance in a similar sized enemy vessel capable of multi-thousand G movement) to literally lift the required area off the ground, avoiding the groundshake.

Concept Validation Calcs
Let's start by assigning a MC80 to the task.
1) The MC80 is 1200m long, 480m wide and 140m high (Saxtonian L/W estimates).
2) Assuming a simple cube (it is less than a cube, but let's use a easy calc) produces a volume of 80.64 million cubic meters.
3) To be conservative, we'd assume the overall density of this volume to be 8000kg/m^3 (steel, which is conservative considering the ultra-dense fuel they carry) = 6.45E11kg.
4) The engines of the Mon Cal would be able to drive 6.45E11kg at 3500Gs, which implies it can drive 2.26E15kg at 1G.
5) The tractor beam should be able to force compliance onto the same mass.
6) Soil and rock density is perhaps 3000kg/m^3, so 2.26E15kg = 7.5264E11m^3.
7) Assume we are lifting a 100m deep cylinder (so we can include some roots), and cylinder volume = pi(r^2)h and r = 48946m.
8) In other words, one ship can lift a near 50km radius of dirt. These are crude, preliminary estimates, but they should be in the ballpark.

Hello? ISNT THAT WHAT I'VE ALREADY FUCKING SAID? How does this affect the fact that in order to protect the Rebels they would also have to avert the short term consequences of extinction affecting the planet itself? While the momentum effects ARE devastating, most of the catastrophic effects of an impact comes from the energy.

I don't know. We were tossing posts around at a very high rate. But back on P.2, you seem to think a planetary shield is a valid countermeasure if only I'd "grant' you a planetary shield. When E30J class energy goes into that shield, it'd either absorb and retransmit on the shield surface (and thus the shield glows like the sun), or it goes into the core. Presumably, there would be a great groundshake from that. Then there's that momentum.

Remember also that according to ITW: OT, they've already been suffering groundquakes and other disturbances from the ENTIRE mass of the Death Star already (that includes the fuel supply AND the mass of the station itself.) - the momentum-based consequences are going to be less after the fact due to the omnidirectional nature of the DS2's explosion (they're absorbing a fraction of the overall mass/energy the station originally possessed.)

The constant "footprint" pressure of the Death Star II only compensates for (2/3rds of gravity), and they would presumably spread the footprint out wide to reduce the ground pressure. The fragments (around a sixth of the total mass) will suddenly impact the shields with 80km/s, ten times more, which more compensates for this. Besides, the sudden change in strain would still cause unavoidable effects.

IIRC it takes aroudn e27 joules to dissipate the atmosphere of an Earth-mass planet. The everything living on the planet, including the Rebels and Imperials, would have been incinerated long before then.

Agreed, so now let's think of something to meet with the G-canon. Hopefully, we don't need to use a new planetary shield, since the ROTJ novelization is quite clear that it doesn't exist, and the ROTJ Novelization is still higher, and inventing a phantom network of shield generators, of which only one could be set to cover the Death Star (considering the Death Star is the whole point of the shield network, having only one of a bunch of generators able to cover it would be moronic), is not my idea of harmonization.

Rogue 9 wrote:

1: Why the hell did the rebells make a combined fleet operation to protect the team, when an evacuation could have been started just after the shield went off?

The Battle of Endor was in full swing when the shield went down. Do you really think that they could at that point afford to break off and go evacuate the team?

Yes, I really think they could afford a single medium transport (which is actually oversized to the task) or a smaller ship to break off, land and evacuate the commando. Or do you really think they could not? EDIT: According to the novelisation, they afforded ships to bombard the DS. Have a nice weekend!

Connor MacLeod wrote:The ITW book isn't very explicit about what happens. It does alot of hinting, but the phrasing is very open ended, which is why some people (IE Pablo) managed to make it sound like nothing happened to Endor.
I know most people here like to think the ITW book "ended" the discussion on the Endor Holocaust, but I continually fail to see where this "concluisve" proof is.

Some might dismiss it as "semantics", but I'd think that using a word which is primarily used to refer to unpleasent consequences in the title of that snippet of information about the Rebel's victory at Endor has pretty heavy implications.

Take the following analogy: what newspaper you have ever read would title an article of "The Aftermath of Victory" if the only things it mentions is that a joint-forces Counter-Terrorist task force managed to neutralise a particularly nasty bunch of terrorists, defused all of the terrorists' WMD, and that body armour prevented CT casualties?

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Hey, you said it. It had low crime, unity, stability and perhaps some purpose as well. It was no doubt a great boost in morale.

Yeah, but AT THE COST OF GENOCIDE. That completely overshadows anything positive the Third Reich brought to Germany, and the same applies to the Galactic Empire.

And definitely, in the better days of the Weimar Republic, IIRC Hitler tried and failed to get power.

I'd use an analogy: The Japanese were culpable in sneak attacking Pearl Harbor. But the only reason they were able to succeed so completely was because the US' guard was basically completely down. That poor readiness is the part that the US had to pay in its culpability

How does any of that explain your analogy of Hitler's failed attempts to gain power in the Weimar Republic?

You get my point, at least.

No, that bit was merely a correction in regards to population. As you see in my next quoted selection, I failed (and still do) to see your point:

Why should the resistance fighters have to apologize for additional deaths that were directly caused by Hitler's Third Reich in the first place? Why should they have to apologize for trying to defend themselves from brutal oppression? Why should they have to apologize for fighting for their survival? I find this idea of apologizing for fighting the Nazis absolutely disgusting.

I didn't say apologize exactly.

...

Fine. You said "shoulder the blame," which means "admit you were wrong." I still find the idea of the resistance fighters admitting they were wrong for fighting Nazis absurd and abhorrent.

OK, take Alderaan (the Empire's greatest single atrocity by virtually everyone's vote). The Alderaanians were clearly partially culpable. They used a Princess and took advantage of her Diplomatic/Senatorial Status (which only is supposed to work because the Empire still somewhat respects that status) to give her a Government Diplomatic Ship (again taking advantage of the Laws to commit Treason) to sneak in and spy on a Restricted Imperial Area (Treason and Espionage, and the government is complicit in it because it was their ship, complete with their security people). Then the Princess, after being caught, lied to a senior Imperial officer (treason).

I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT WHAT LAWS THE REBELS BROKE. The Imperial government was one that was founded upon the TREACHEROUS acts of Palpatine the Douche Bag who BETRAYED his people and OVERTHREW the Old Republic. What did you expect them to do? Respect and obey laws of an oppressive government they did not recognize as a legitimate one and were trying to overthrow?! Try to "legally" dethrone EMPEROR Palpatine after he warped the Old Republic into the new POS government that was the Galactic Empire? Or just lie down and die?!

We come back to the resistance fighters again. Are you saying that they were wrong for lying to the Gestapo during interrogations? Are you saying they were wrong for stealing Wehrmacht equipment for their own use? Are you saying they were wrong for destroying Wehrmacht property?

Finally, they approached the planet. The Alderaanians, in their final idiocy and treasonous defiance, put up their impenetrable shield in the face of Imperial authority. They might as well have tried to fire at the DS while making childish taunts over the radio.

When you see a massive 160 km battlestation armed to the teeth and with power readings off the scale drop out of hyperspace in close proximity to your homeworld, don't you think it would be prudent to raise the planetary shields? Especially since they knew what it was capable of and were trying to sabotage it?

And since everyone figures Alderaan is basically a democracy with a Brit-style symbolic monarchy, the government presumably has the support of the people to do these treasonous acts. The punishment for Treason is Death or Labor Camp (not a great step up from Death). And when there are billions on a planet ... well ...

For more details

That's fine, but the Rebels weren't treasonous. They were merely fighting to restore their old form of government. If anyone should receive such treatment, it should have been the Imperials since they were the ones that backstabbed the Old Republic.

I wouldn't say that. There are tons of Imp fans here at SDN.

Well, based on the last thread on this topic, I think Ender is a bit on my side. Other than that, IP is the only major power, and his pro-Imperialism extends only to military and economical strength, not Imperial apologism.

Huh...after some digging in that "Rebels are terrorists?" thread, I have to say you are right. The last few times I partook in the "why is the Empire evil" threads, there were quite a few opposed to my views. In fact, there were tons of them. One one thread a poll showed many didn't think the Empire was evil. I didn't realize there are now many more pro-Rebs than pro-Imps here. Examples:

So, whats so evil about the Galactic Empire?
Why the empire is evil...
Anti-human bias in Empire??

Funny, it was the Senate who voted to give Palpatine his "Unlimited Emergency Powers" (yeah, sure, Palpatine pulled strings, but which politician does not). The Republic actually kind of morphed into the Empire in a way which even the New Republic people had to admit was "mostly legitimate" (from Shield of Lies)

So? What does this prove? Does it in any way lessen the evils of the Empire? No. It just shows that Palpatine was a sneaky fucker who played everyone for fools.

Depends on how stubborn they are. In a long seige,

Siege or blockade? You started off saying blockade and now you're saying siege.

either the Alderaanians are self-independent (which is easily possible on a 2-bil population) or they aren't. If they are, the seige is just about useless and in fact may suggest Imperial indecisiveness (Nee-ha, you have planet busting Death Star and you don't dare use it, so BEH).

If it's a siege and they are attacking the planetary shields, why aren't they using the DS? I thought that was the whole purpose of the DS.

If they aren't, and they don't give themselves up, they would starve, which is painful. Then when someone finally gets smart and open up the shield, the ISB would come in and drag off anybody that is Rebel. Since there is no doubt Treason in the Empire means either Kessel or Execution, that's not exactly a great outcome.

Let's see....intact planet with survivors and chance of escape versus scattered clouds of debris.

Is this in reference to Endor or something else?

Basically, some Imperials in the EU books are supposed to think the Empire could have blown up a moon for their demonstration instead of Alderaan. But both because of sheer Resolve Factor and the Shielding-is-Futile Factor (remember that those NR people can't even admit tiny things like Alderaan's shield), it doesnt' work.

Uh...yes it does. What is preventing the Empire from installing a planetary shield on a moon? Or even an uninhabited planet?

See ya tomorrow. I have to think of some answers for Connor.

Hello.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Huh...after some digging in that "Rebels are terrorists?" thread, I have to say you are right. The last few times I partook in the "why is the Empire evil" threads, there were quite a few opposed to my views. In fact, there were tons of them. One one thread a poll showed many didn't think the Empire was evil. I didn't realize there are now many more pro-Rebs than pro-Imps here. Examples:

So, whats so evil about the Galactic Empire?
Why the empire is evil...
Anti-human bias in Empire??

Okay, I'm sorry, but those are ridiculous. Oh, to have been here...

David wrote:The Empire might be unfair, but it never harmed the citizens that were loyal to it.

One word. Alderaan. I'm not going to delve into the old threads any more than that, but that just needed to be said. Christ.

funding terrorists seems to be a legimate target

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Yeah, but AT THE COST OF GENOCIDE. That completely overshadows anything positive the Third Reich brought to Germany, and the same applies to the Galactic Empire.

1) Nobody really liked the Jews at the time anyway. Hitler merely went one step further.
2) Alderaan, in terms of Galactic Scale, was a fairly small city. It at worst is a massacre, not genocide.
3) The slavery issue is highly arbitrary. Remember that it is only quite recently that human morals don't allow slaves.
4) The Imperials state that if a Species is not rated Sentient, it may be Domesticated. Sounds OK on the face of it, no one has trouble with Domesticating dogs. The Rebels, of course, say that the Empire is very, uh, liberal in rating other species non-sentient.
5) Yet what is sentient? Are droids sentient (and I don't mean that unthinking worker droid, I mean high-level droids with some time to develop sentience like C3PO)? We may see C3PO and rate him to be (most of us), but Shield of Lies suggests they are not considered to be, on very arbitrary grounds which basically ensure a droid would never be rated sentient. If people in the Star Wars galaxy can be that arbitrary in such definitions, well...

How does any of that explain your analogy of Hitler's failed attempts to gain power in the Weimar Republic?

The point is how these governments tend to get into power because the old government has become ineffectual.

IRG wrote:Fine. You said "shoulder the blame," which means "admit you were wrong." I still find the idea of the resistance fighters admitting they were wrong for fighting Nazis absurd and abhorrent.

You might want to remember that most of what they are fighting is not the leadership, but mere soldiers. For all they know, they might not even be volunteers - but conscripts. And when you kill someone, you have to shoulder responsibility for it. This concept gets through even Luke Skywalker's wall once in a while.

IRG wrote:

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Funny, it was the Senate who voted to give Palpatine his "Unlimited Emergency Powers" (yeah, sure, Palpatine pulled strings, but which politician does not). The Republic actually kind of morphed into the Empire in a way which even the New Republic people had to admit was "mostly legitimate" (from Shield of Lies)

So? What does this prove? Does it in any way lessen the evils of the Empire? No. It just shows that Palpatine was a sneaky fucker who played everyone for fools.

This, however, does prove that it is the legitimate (a legal concept) government, so one may not argue on legal, but on moral grounds alone (which is also why I brought this section up here, so we can get your other attacks on the Empire's legitimacy outta the way.

As for being a "sneaky fucker who played everyone for fools" - that's just typical politician. Not his fault that the Senate was dumb.

IRG wrote: I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT WHAT LAWS THE REBELS BROKE.

In other words, you had never stopped to consider the Imperial POV, only the Rebel POV. Yet the decision to open fire in the end was Imperial, and in analyzing their actions, their POV must be taken into account.

The Imperial government was one that was founded upon the TREACHEROUS acts of Palpatine the Douche Bag who BETRAYED his people and OVERTHREW the Old Republic.

The Senate approved his actions till he got his ass into being Emperor. As for "betraying" his people, face it, not all politicans serve the people.

What did you expect them to do? Respect and obey laws of an oppressive government they did not recognize as a legitimate one and were trying to overthrow?!

In sending a Senator and expecting the Imperials to respect their consular status, Alderaan is saying the Empire is legitimate.

In fact, not only Alderaan, but the very concept of the Rebel Alliance itself is tacitly acknowledging the Empire is legit, and their conflict with it is on moral grounds. If they do not recognize the government, they would call themselves the "Movement to Restore the Republic" or "Republic-Government-in-Exile". Calling yourself the Rebel Alliance in effect concedes the basic legitimacy to your governmental enemy.

Try to "legally" dethrone EMPEROR Palpatine after he warped the Old Republic into the new POS government that was the Galactic Empire? Or just lie down and die?!

Obey the law. As for "warp", funny, I thought you said he "overthrew" in the same paragraph. Warp means he's slowly altering, implying movements that have to go through some legal process. Overthrow is well, violent.

We come back to the resistance fighters again. Are you saying that they were wrong for lying to the Gestapo during interrogations? Are you saying they were wrong for stealing Wehrmacht equipment for their own use? Are you saying they were wrong for destroying Wehrmacht property?

From the Nazi government POV, yes. And one should at least keep that in mind when you hear they razed a village in response.

Remember also that Leia Organa is a government official. In a government that acknowledges the authority of the Empire at least nominally. It is her duty to respond honestly. She cannot have her cake and eat it too.

When you see a massive 160 km battlestation armed to the teeth and with power readings off the scale drop out of hyperspace in close proximity to your homeworld, don't you think it would be prudent to raise the planetary shields? Especially since they knew what it was capable of and were trying to sabotage it?

No. That's like a suspected criminal running or raising his gun when he sees a cop. It is an admission of guilt, of refusal to submit to Imperial authority. From the Imperial POV, of course that is totally unacceptable. What they should be doing (the smart move, as well as the correct move given their legal status) is hailing the DS and offering to roll out the red carpet for the GM Tarkin. Even a fucking Resistance fighter should have the brains to know when to pretend not to be one don't you think?

That's fine, but the Rebels weren't treasonous. They were merely fighting to restore their old form of government. If anyone should receive such treatment, it should have been the Imperials since they were the ones that backstabbed the Old Republic.

See above. No one, not even the Rebellion seriously tries to challenge the legal authority, and you cannot send a Senator and insist that you don't recognize the government that you are sending her to.

If they acknowledge the Empire's authority, yet they are fighting for the Old Republic, they are being traitors, and they know it.

IRG wrote:Siege or blockade? You started off saying blockade and now you're saying siege.

In fact, you want a blockade, since a seige would likely cause mass destruction.

IRG wrote:If it's a siege and they are attacking the planetary shields, why aren't they using the DS? I thought that was the whole purpose of the DS.

You might know that shields are an energy phenomena and they might vary by as much as 20% in some places (the theory behind the Torpedo Sphere). So they use the DS, but they misestimate (or the DS1 superlaser plain can't make that fine adjustment) the shield strength and an extra 2E32J (which is about a millionth of the power of the SL) makes it to the ground, blowing the planet apart more slowly. IRGCommandoJoe, of course, is not any more pleased.

Let's see....intact planet with survivors and chance of escape versus scattered clouds of debris.

Take into account the instant, merciful death versus the long and painful death.

Uh...yes it does. What is preventing the Empire from installing a planetary shield on a moon? Or even an uninhabited planet?

No one would know the grade of that network, not to mention the sheer expense. Everyone knows the network for a Core World. Again, there's also that Resolve Factor (which played a part in Hiroshima too). Alderaan was a fairly good choice. it was a well-known Core World, thus showing Imperial will and ability to take out Rebellious elements even if they hide on a prestigious world,, but it only had 2 billion on it, and it had a tough shield.

Somewhere in an alternate universe...

Tarkin: Please turn over the terrorists.

Alderaan: No, we put up our invincible shield. You cannot break through.

Tarkin: Wait, we mean you no harm!

Alderaan: We would rather die than help you, do your worst Imperial scum!

Tarkin: *fighting back tears* Fire a low powered warning shot across their coastline.

Gunnery Crew: Yes sir! Oops, we hit the wrong button!

*planet explodes*

Tarkin: I shall resign due to my responsibility for this terrible tragedy!

Scientists: The next Death Star will not be so overkill, and fire lower powered shots to prevent this from happening again.

The Alderaanians were hardly in an alternate universe. You just transformed their actions into verbose form.

The next Death Star did seem to incorporate a superior ability to hit small targets like capital ships, suggesting superior precision.

Tarkin's part was alternate universe, and there is no such thing as a "low powered" shot against a 1E37J resistance shield.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:1) Nobody really liked the Jews at the time anyway. Hitler merely went one step further.

Ah, so obviously that makes it all ok.

2) Alderaan, in terms of Galactic Scale, was a fairly small city. It at worst is a massacre, not genocide.

God you're being a retard. I'm trying to think of some kind of comment to make on this. But the amount he's had to blind himself to even think something like this is apauling. I'll try. Alderaan is not a massacre. We're talking about the death of billions in a moment, the destruction of an entire planet, for another this planet was in the inner core? You know that means this is a big wig world, very important. Finally, the planet was destroyed for the express purpose of making a point as to how powerful the Death Star was. That's it. Treason was never mentioned. Tarkin says "Dantooine is too far out to make an effective display." or something like that.

<snip>

The point is how these governments tend to get into power because the old government has become ineffectual.

So you're saying that replacing an ineffectual government with one whose intent it is too start a world war and kill millions is alright?

You might want to remember that most of what they are fighting is not the leadership, but mere soldiers. For all they know, they might not even be volunteers - but conscripts. And when you kill someone, you have to shoulder responsibility for it. This concept gets through even Luke Skywalker's wall once in a while.

I will agree that a force of soldiers should feel some sorrow about killing people. But you seem to be suggesting that the blame lies entirely on the Rebels for going against unjust laws.

This, however, does prove that it is the legitimate (a legal concept) government, so one may not argue on legal, but on moral grounds alone (which is also why I brought this section up here, so we can get your other attacks on the Empire's legitimacy outta the way.

As for being a "sneaky fucker who played everyone for fools" - that's just typical politician. Not his fault that the Senate was dumb.

Translation "It's not Palpatine's fault that he's a slimy fuck who only want to rule the world with an iron fist. It's the fault of the people who let him do it."

In other words, you had never stopped to consider the Imperial POV, only the Rebel POV. Yet the decision to open fire in the end was Imperial, and in analyzing their actions, their POV must be taken into account.

"*cries* But we need to think of both sides! By the imperial viewpoint they were doing no wrong. So it's ok!" Come on dude, some Nazi's didn't think they were doing any wrong. Are you saying that they are free of fault because they thought they were doing the right thing?

The Senate approved his actions till he got his ass into being Emperor. As for "betraying" his people, face it, not all politicans serve the people.

Refer to my post up there about Palpatine and the senate.

<snip>

Obey the law. As for "warp", funny, I thought you said he "overthrew" in the same paragraph. Warp means he's slowly altering, implying movements that have to go through some legal process. Overthrow is well, violent.

Obey unjust laws. God, the fact that you can get your mouth off of Palpatine's cock long enough to speak is amazing...

From the Nazi government POV, yes. And one should at least keep that in mind when you hear they razed a village in response.

Remember also that Leia Organa is a government official. In a government that acknowledges the authority of the Empire at least nominally. It is her duty to respond honestly. She cannot have her cake and eat it too.

Back to POV bullshit. And again with the idea that if a government is legit it should always be given all respect and never lied to.

No. That's like a suspected criminal running or raising his gun when he sees a cop. It is an admission of guilt, of refusal to submit to Imperial authority. From the Imperial POV, of course that is totally unacceptable. What they should be doing (the smart move, as well as the correct move given their legal status) is hailing the DS and offering to roll out the red carpet for the GM Tarkin. Even a fucking Resistance fighter should have the brains to know when to pretend not to be one don't you think?

No, again you're sucking Palpatine's cock. Your example is entirely off. It's more like someone walking into your house carrying a shotgun and you have a big lead wall you can hide behind. In your view, that gives the person with the shotgun full rights to shoot you. Like I said before, I don't think it was ever mentioned that the reason for blowing up Alderaan was because it was harboring traitors. In the movie the only reason given is to make a point of how powerful the Death Star is. The only reason the Death Star WENT to Alderaan was to get a confession out of Leia.

<snip>

You might know that shields are an energy phenomena and they might vary by as much as 20% in some places (the theory behind the Torpedo Sphere). So they use the DS, but they misestimate (or the DS1 superlaser plain can't make that fine adjustment) the shield strength and an extra 2E32J (which is about a millionth of the power of the SL) makes it to the ground, blowing the planet apart more slowly. IRGCommandoJoe, of course, is not any more pleased.

Are you suggesting that the Death Star has any other purpose than the express destruction of planets?

Take into account the instant, merciful death versus the long and painful death.

Ah yes, that's SO much better :rolleyes:

No one would know the grade of that network, not to mention the sheer expense. Everyone knows the network for a Core World. Again, there's also that Resolve Factor (which played a part in Hiroshima too). Alderaan was a fairly good choice. it was a well-known Core World, thus showing Imperial will and ability to take out Rebellious elements even if they hide on a prestigious world,, but it only had 2 billion on it, and it had a tough shield.

*head explodes after reading all of this post.*

Captain_Cyran wrote:Ah, so obviously that makes it all ok. :rolleyes:

It is called: Taking into account the standards of the time.

God you're being a retard. I'm trying to think of some kind of comment to make on this. But the amount he's had to blind himself to even think something like this is apauling. I'll try. Alderaan is not a massacre. We're talking about the death of billions in a moment, the destruction of an entire planet, for another this planet was in the inner core? You know that means this is a big wig world, very important. Finally, the planet was destroyed for the express purpose of making a point as to how powerful the Death Star was. That's it. Treason was never mentioned. Tarkin says "Dantooine is too far out to make an effective display." or something like that.

It certainly was a factor (of course blowing up Alderaan, like blowing up Hiroshima, had a certain demonstrative value), but you seem to be using it in exclusion to all other possible factors involved in Alderaan's choice.

So you're saying that replacing an ineffectual government with one whose intent it is too start a world war and kill millions is alright?

They didn't know that then. And I never said the Nazis are one hundred percent white.

You will agree that a force of soldiers should feel some sorrow about killing people. But you seem to be suggesting that the blame lies entirely on the Rebels for going against unjust laws.

No one says the Blame goes completely to the Rebels. But they must at least pick up the blame for the destruction they caused, and how their planned replacement proved to be so shoddy (read NJO). If you are going to Rebel because you don't like the current government and wind up causing trillions of deaths, the least you can do is to carefully plan out your alternative.

Translation "It's not Palpatine's fault that he's a slimy fuck who only want to rule the world with an iron fist. It's the fault of the people who let him do it."

In a democracy / republic, the People select the government. And in letting Palpy onto the stage where he can put on is at least partially the People's responsbility.

"*cries* But we need to think of both sides! By the imperial viewpoint they were doing no wrong. So it's ok!" Come on dude, some Nazi's didn't think they were doing any wrong. Are you saying that they are free of fault because they thought they were doing the right thing?

I didn't say they were free of fault. What we could do is analyze how the opposite side sees things like traitors, and take that into account.

Obey unjust laws. God, the fact that you can get your mouth off of Palpatine's cock long enough to speak is amazing...

How does "Taking a academic moment to think from the Imperial viewpoint" mean sucking Palpy's cock. In fact, I think Palpy is an evil dolt (especially after I read the audiotapes transcripts of the Dark Empire series). But then, I doubt even GM Tarkin would enjoy hearing about the Emperor's ultimate plan.

Back to POV bullshit. And again with the idea that if a government is legit it should always be given all respect and never lied to.

Since Leia Organa happens to be serving a government that has nominally pledged loyalty, YES, she is obliged to respond honestly. If you want to Rebel, the very least you could do is resign your government post.

Your example is entirely off. It's more like someone walking into your house carrying a shotgun and you have a big lead wall you can hide behind.

If the person is a cop, then that changes the situation somewhat, doesn't it? In hiding behind the wall and sealing yourself off, you are proclaiming defiance. And most cops carry pistols at least.

Like I said before, I don't think it was ever mentioned that the reason for blowing up Alderaan was because it was harboring traitors. In the movie the only reason given is to make a point of how powerful the Death Star is. The only reason the Death Star WENT to Alderaan was to get a confession out of Leia.

Of course, that's a great benefit of this too (he has to go destroy the Rebel base sometimes), but I really doubt ANH was long enough to allow Tarkin any chance to write all of his Million Reasons for Blowing up Alderaan to paper.

Alderaanian rearming activity is quite well known, and the choice of Alderaan was definitely assisted by Leia Organa's latest treasonous act.

Based on his Tarkin Doctrine and ANH, however, Tarkin is also clear that he plans for this battle station to stop the civil war through the "threat of force". To put it nicely (taking that academic moment again), he hopes to avoid further deaths.

Traitors are also mentioned by Darth Vader on P.129 of the ANH, and Tarkin already knows Alderaan "as a main source of munitions" (P.130).

Treason was almost definitely very much in Tarkin's mind when he made that choice.

Are you suggesting that the Death Star has any other purpose than the express destruction of planets?

It is designed to maintain order by giving the Empire the ability to burn through the most powerful shields and destroy the planet underneath. It is IRGCommandoJoe that proposed using it as a siege engine as an alternative to blowing apart the whole planet, and that just doesn't work with any degree of reliability.

Ah yes, that's SO much better :rolleyes:

So, if I was going to kill you, and there's no chance of escape, you will think it makes little difference whether I starve you to death or I just shoot you in the head. Personally, I'd consider it a small mercy for a quick death.

*head explodes after reading all of this post.*

Yes, I'm sure most people would find this hard to swallow. But there are reasons why a moon isn't as good for the demonstration, and one should be reminded of it.

Why couldn't they have designed the Death Star to fire shots just powerful enough to crack a shield? That would allow them to beat the defenses without slaughtering the whole planet.

They made it (the Death Star) many magnitudes more powerful than the minimum required to utterly DESTROY a planet. So clearly their goal was inspiring fear through mass murder.

It sounds like saying Alderaan was full of traitors was just a nice excuse after the fact, a justification for killing them all. Sort of like Anakin's massacre of the Tusken raiders (only much, much worse).


And wait, all the arguments the Imperials give for destroying Alderaan are in the novelisation and EU materials. Isn't that all supposed to be (from the Imperial apologist viewpoint) "New Republic Propaganda"? If we take the movie's viewpoint they're even more monsters, wanting to destroy a world to scare one person into ratting out her allies and scaring the galaxy at large into obedience.

Kurgan wrote:Why couldn't they have designed the Death Star to fire shots just powerful enough to crack a shield? That would allow them to beat the defenses without slaughtering the whole planet.

I suppose you want a nice, perfect situation where you just crack the shield with little damage to what's underneath. Unfortunately, with the massive energies being used, you are talking insanely small tolerances. Think ... we are talking 1E38J here, and I doubt you are going to be very happy if the weapon had a one in a trillion misadjustment (about 1E26J worth) and that leak effectively wiped out all life on the planet. Minor miscalibration of the weapon, minor changes in the shield field strength throughout, all of these would generate much larger variations, to say nothing of differing shield models and deployment methods.

They made it (the Death Star) many magnitudes more powerful than the minimum required to utterly DESTROY a planet. So clearly their goal was inspiring fear through mass murder.

Considering Alderaan's shield wound up managing to block over 1E37J, of course they had to make it plenty more powerful to guarantee a smooth penetration. It'd be highly embarassing if they fired a shot and it was stopped, would it?

Also, the Rebels clearly needed this kind of threat. If they quieted down (which could be a likely outcome had Tarkin wiped out Yavin like he planned), then Tarkin would have saved countless lives on both sides, all for the down payment of a "mere" 2 billion (a lot for us, a dinge for the galaxy).

It sounds like saying Alderaan was full of traitors was just a nice excuse after the fact, a justification for killing them all. Sort of like Anakin's massacre of the Tusken raiders (only much, much worse).

Doesn't mean it wasn't true. And honestly, I wasn't too disgusted about killing those Tuskens either.

And wait, all the arguments the Imperials give for destroying Alderaan are in the novelisation and EU materials. Isn't that all supposed to be (from the Imperial apologist viewpoint) "New Republic Propaganda"?

That the stuff we see is NR propaganda is undeniable. The only difference is in the estimation of distortion degree. The novelization, being near the top, is considered relatively clean (at least it makes a passing notice of the shield, while official sources like the DESB deny it totally).

If we take the movie's viewpoint they're even more monsters, wanting to destroy a world to scare one person into ratting out her allies and scaring the galaxy at large into obedience.

The nice way of saying "scaring the galaxy at large into obedience" is called "helping cooler heads prevail", which is a term used by even the New Republic.

And why should the Empire regret forcing a person into ratting out a bunch of traitors (their POV). You tell me why I should feel regret in forcing a person to rat out traitors.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I know most people here like to think the ITW book "ended" the discussion on the Endor Holocaust, but I continually fail to see where this "concluisve" proof is.

Quite easily, from the quote that says the Strike Team on the surface was spared from the DS2 debris. The Team was in Bright Tree village at the time, that has a population of 200 Ewoks. However, ITW says Endor was home to millions of Ewoks.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Captain_Cyran wrote:Ah, so obviously that makes it all ok. :rolleyes:

It is called: Taking into account the standards of the time.

I agree that we need to take into account the standards of the time. But the view on Alderaanians by the Star Wars universe is in no way similar to the world view of the jews in 1940. So you've got no real point.

God you're being a retard. I'm trying to think of some kind of comment to make on this. But the amount he's had to blind himself to even think something like this is apauling. I'll try. Alderaan is not a massacre. We're talking about the death of billions in a moment, the destruction of an entire planet, for another this planet was in the inner core? You know that means this is a big wig world, very important. Finally, the planet was destroyed for the express purpose of making a point as to how powerful the Death Star was. That's it. Treason was never mentioned. Tarkin says "Dantooine is too far out to make an effective display." or something like that.

It certainly was a factor (of course blowing up Alderaan, like blowing up Hiroshima, had a certain demonstrative value), but you seem to be using it in exclusion to all other possible factors involved in Alderaan's choice.

All you keep mentioning are the POSSIBLE factors. There is no proof that the Empire had any reason beyond "They're a good target for example.". They didn't mention a reason beyond they need a demonstration.

So you're saying that replacing an ineffectual government with one whose intent it is too start a world war and kill millions is alright?

They didn't know that then. And I never said the Nazis are one hundred percent white.

Correct, Hitler was just screaming about how evil the Jewish people were and how they were ruining the world. Little better.

You will agree that a force of soldiers should feel some sorrow about killing people. But you seem to be suggesting that the blame lies entirely on the Rebels for going against unjust laws.

No one says the Blame goes completely to the Rebels. But they must at least pick up the blame for the destruction they caused, and how their planned replacement proved to be so shoddy (read NJO). If you are going to Rebel because you don't like the current government and wind up causing trillions of deaths, the least you can do is to carefully plan out your alternative.

I'll agree that they should take some blame for causing the deaths of billions or trillions. But the Empire killed just as many people, if not more. They commited genocide against the Jedi. Hell, Tarkin got PROMOTED for landing his ship on protestors.

Translation "It's not Palpatine's fault that he's a slimy fuck who only want to rule the world with an iron fist. It's the fault of the people who let him do it."

In a democracy / republic, the People select the government. And in letting Palpy onto the stage where he can put on is at least partially the People's responsbility.

Partially, yes. But the way you're putting it you seem to be trying to put all the blame on the people.

"*cries* But we need to think of both sides! By the imperial viewpoint they were doing no wrong. So it's ok!" Come on dude, some Nazi's didn't think they were doing any wrong. Are you saying that they are free of fault because they thought they were doing the right thing?

I didn't say they were free of fault. What we could do is analyze how the opposite side sees things like traitors, and take that into account.

So you're saying basically is that because Hitler and his men thought that killing the Jews was a good thing it is in some way better? Better example, how they treated people they found helping Jews escape.

Obey unjust laws. God, the fact that you can get your mouth off of Palpatine's cock long enough to speak is amazing...

How does "Taking a academic moment to think from the Imperial viewpoint" mean sucking Palpy's cock. In fact, I think Palpy is an evil dolt (especially after I read the audiotapes transcripts of the Dark Empire series). But then, I doubt even GM Tarkin would enjoy hearing about the Emperor's ultimate plan.

Dude. Tarkin CRUSHED PROTESTORS WITH HIS SHIP! I'm not saying that all imperial captains are bad. But Tarkin is not one that you say is a good guy. For another thing you don't look at "viewpoints" in a debate. You look at the facts.

Back to POV bullshit. And again with the idea that if a government is legit it should always be given all respect and never lied to.

Since Leia Organa happens to be serving a government that has nominally pledged loyalty, YES, she is obliged to respond honestly. If you want to Rebel, the very least you could do is resign your government post.

*blink* Wow. "If you're going to rebel you should be nice enough to remove yourself from any government position of power so your attempt to rebel against our legitimite yet evil empire will fail."

Your example is entirely off. It's more like someone walking into your house carrying a shotgun and you have a big lead wall you can hide behind.

If the person is a cop, then that changes the situation somewhat, doesn't it? In hiding behind the wall and sealing yourself off, you are proclaiming defiance. And most cops carry pistols at least.

You seriously can't see Alderaan raising it's shield as a defensive action at all... can you?

Like I said before, I don't think it was ever mentioned that the reason for blowing up Alderaan was because it was harboring traitors. In the movie the only reason given is to make a point of how powerful the Death Star is. The only reason the Death Star WENT to Alderaan was to get a confession out of Leia.

Of course, that's a great benefit of this too (he has to go destroy the Rebel base sometimes), but I really doubt ANH was long enough to allow Tarkin any chance to write all of his Million Reasons for Blowing up Alderaan to paper.

Is this reason enough for me to say "Concession Accepted"? I'm not sure.

Alderaanian rearming activity is quite well known, and the choice of Alderaan was definitely assisted by Leia Organa's latest treasonous act.

So you blow up a fucking planet? That's like Bush nuking Detroit because they are against the military action in Iraq.

Based on his Tarkin Doctrine and ANH, however, Tarkin is also clear that he plans for this battle station to stop the civil war through the "threat of force". To put it nicely (taking that academic moment again), he hopes to avoid further deaths.

How goes the brick laying? I see you're building a rather impressive wall.

Traitors are also mentioned by Darth Vader on P.129 of the ANH, and Tarkin already knows Alderaan "as a main source of munitions" (P.130).

I will conceed that Alderaan was a known source of munitions for the rebellion.

Treason was almost definitely very much in Tarkin's mind when he made that choice.

We don't know that. And until you can prove that you're wrong.

Are you suggesting that the Death Star has any other purpose than the express destruction of planets?

It is designed to maintain order by giving the Empire the ability to burn through the most powerful shields and destroy the planet underneath. It is IRGCommandoJoe that proposed using it as a siege engine as an alternative to blowing apart the whole planet, and that just doesn't work with any degree of reliability.

From the way you posted first, it made it sound like you were agreeing with them at least.

Ah yes, that's SO much better :rolleyes:

So, if I was going to kill you, and there's no chance of escape, you will think it makes little difference whether I starve you to death or I just shoot you in the head. Personally, I'd consider it a small mercy for a quick death.

*sigh* So the empire was being merciful by destroying the planet quickly?

*head explodes after reading all of this post.*

Yes, I'm sure most people would find this hard to swallow. But there are reasons why a moon isn't as good for the demonstration, and one should be reminded of it.

I was refering to all of your posts, not just that section.

Captain_Cyran wrote:I agree that we need to take into account the standards of the time. But the view on Alderaanians by the Star Wars universe is in no way similar to the world view of the jews in 1940. So you've got no real point.

I was referring to the Jews for that one.

All you keep mentioning are the POSSIBLE factors. There is no proof that the Empire had any reason beyond "They're a good target for example.". They didn't mention a reason beyond they need a demonstration.

Oh, so despite the fact they mentioned traitors and munitions and all that, none of that could have been a factor in Tarkin's computation. That was the reason he provided quickly. He didn't need to tell Leia all his One Million Reasons before he attacked, did he?

CC wrote:I'll agree that they should take some blame for causing the deaths of billions or trillions. But the Empire killed just as many people, if not more. They commited genocide against the Jedi. Hell, Tarkin got PROMOTED for landing his ship on protestors.

It'd be hard for a Alderaan (2 billion), and the rest are probably "petty cash" in comparison to compare with the post-Endor Galactic Civil War or the 365 trillion casaulty Vong war, which most people agree would not have been so tragic if the Empire (or hell, any semi-competent government) was around.

As for the Jedi, it ain't that great. But then, this is hardly the first fundie war, and given half a chance, the Jedi would have done to the same to the Sith. You just don't see it as a genocide because the recent Sith religion tends to only have two people, but it is wiping out members of another sect, and I doubt the Jedi are going to "respect religious freedom" or anything if the Sith had a few hundred.

As for Tarkin and Ghorman House, I can think of a few mitigating factors. But just ask yourself this. Why the landing pads themselves? Publicity? I think not. Besides the entrance to the spaceport is just as good. Sitting on the spacepads themselves, preventing landings, is disrupting the Public Order and clearly detrimental to the Planet's Economy, and thus their actions are clearly not in the Public Interest. Have you considered how likely it is that the local planetary government would have tried to deal with the problem themselves? Even if you think that they are totally selfishly motivated, a dispersal attempt before Tarkin could arrive in his ship would be likely. That Tarkin wound up having to (or even getting the opportunity to) sit on them says something about the tenacity so called "peaceful" crowd.

CC wrote:Partially, yes. But the way you're putting it you seem to be trying to put all the blame on the people.

A realistic Imperial apologist does not try that. Putting all the blame elsewhere is impossible. We just think of mitigators, and how the solution is more complex than a person who jsut sucks up the Rebel position wholesale might thing.

CC wrote:So you're saying basically is that because Hitler and his men thought that killing the Jews was a good thing it is in some way better?

It means you penalize once. For instance, the Empire does not rate the Wookiee species as sentient. If you want to say that's wrong (and I agree Wookiees are sentient) then take the point off for that. Don't take another point off for the Wookiees being "domesticated", because once you have the first attitude, the Domestication is not a crime.

CC wrote:Better example, how they treated people they found helping Jews escape.

See above. Basically, by the standards of that time, Jews being persecuted is about natural, so you don't take special points off for that. Them being sent into concentration camps because they are rated inferior or a menace or whatnot is not natural for the period, so you can take a point off. But once that is defined, that the guy helping Jews escape being punished severely is not a new crime. They harbored, basically, a criminal. Harboring criminals should be punished severely. Simple version.

CC wrote:Dude. Tarkin CRUSHED PROTESTORS WITH HIS SHIP! I'm not saying that all imperial captains are bad. But Tarkin is not one that you say is a good guy. For another thing you don't look at "viewpoints" in a debate. You look at the facts.

The available facts are that Tarkin eventually sat on the protestors. We don't know how long the protestors have been there, how peaceful they really are, how many eviction attempts had they resisted,

CC wrote:*blink* Wow. "If you're going to rebel you should be nice enough to remove yourself from any government position of power so your attempt to rebel against our legitimite yet evil empire will fail."

You could fail to do so. Just don't be surprised when your enemy applies his scoring based on the fact you were a government official and you betrayed their trust, rather than a deranged individual. It is a gamble she took - a few Status Advantages coupled with what happened, and she lost.

CC wrote:You seriously can't see Alderaan raising it's shield as a defensive action at all... can you?

I see it as provocative, like sprinting from a cop as he hails you. That's also not an attack, but it is provocative.

CC wrote:So you blow up a fucking planet? That's like Bush nuking Detroit because they are against the military action in Iraq.

At the very least, you could say they are actively funneling weapons and men to Iraq to show their dis-satisfaction. And their mayor's daughter is caught taking advantage of her status to sneaking secret weaknesses of the US military to their Iraqi opponents. And when the US Federal government sends a unit to check out Detroit, they put up a shield that would not only resist conventional, but most nuclear bombardment, barring any entry, and then assume Detroit has the potential to be independent, so a blockade would be a long, fairly fruitless path. That's a little closer.

CC wrote:How goes the brick laying? I see you're building a rather impressive wall.

Read the Tarkin Doctrine.

CC wrote:We don't know that. And until you can prove that you're wrong.

And how can I prove that. All I can prove is that he knows about the treason and the munitions at the time of firing. To ask for definite prove it must have crossed his mind at the very second he gave the order is asking for unknowable proof.

From the way you posted first, it made it sound like you were agreeing with them at least.

I agree that from the viewpoint of the government, to people that are not naturally obedient or respect authority within the bounds set by said government, the only ways left are Force and Threat of Force. And with planetary shields so tough, the only way to guarantee that even the strongest planet could be vulnerable requires some superweapons.

CC wrote:*sigh* So the empire was being merciful by destroying the planet quickly?

In a way, yes.

Btw, the whole "well people wanted Palpatine to be the leader" argument is muddied by the fact that he was using the Dark Side of the Force to manipulate the minds of people. Not to mention that starting a war against yourself is treasonous. That goes beyond mere politician's games for winning popular support.

Kurgan wrote:Btw, the whole "well people wanted Palpatine to be the leader" argument is muddied by the fact that he was using the Dark Side of the Force to manipulate the minds of people. Not to mention that starting a war against yourself is treasonous. That goes beyond mere politician's games for winning popular support.

Mind tricks aren't supposed to work so well on the strong-minded, and he can hardly afford to use massive amounts of Force so close to the Jedi Temple.

The Clone Wars were a nasty sort, but no one in the Old Republic could have proved it.