Jedi vs. Zion

[Smiling Bandit]

Do not waste our time by comparing objective data to subjective impressions, dumb-ass. If that's how you typically debate, go to one of those webboards where people think "science" has too many big words.

I'm not sure is there is a very good way to calculate Neo's velocity there. First of all, it appeared to me that there was a little of the "slowdown efect" while it was being shown on screen. For example, the explosion effect was shown very slowly so as to display Neo's great speed. Regardless, how fast would you have to fly to make vehicles ascend into the air after you simply from your wind-tunneling? I have no way to answer that question.

Which actually is another problem: There is that same "Reality-Distorting slow-mo effect" when Neo takes off. Does this mean its faster from other people's points of view?

Odd idea: If a Jedi can take that sort of crushing punishment as ANakin's speeder death drop, does that mean you could beat them with a stick and wouldn't even notice? It would seem to be so, but then, I did notice that Jedi seem to have different sets of abilities depending on whether the object is a living being or not. Wierd.

Of course, the boks have poorly-trained young students tossing starships around like tinfoil, so I suppose I shouldn't be too picky.

[NecronLord]

Note to self: Think, then write ...

If I figured it right (just divide the force through 9.81), then that would be between 350 and 116 g's.

Granted, this is a very generous estimate, but far from thousands of g's (still amazing though).

It assumes 1 sec deceleration time, which is extremely conservative. The accurate number is probably much higher.

And remember folks, this is with diminished abilities

[Connor MacLeod]

Note to self: Think, then write ...

If I figured it right (just divide the force through 9.81), then that would be between 350 and 116 g's.

Granted, this is a very generous estimate, but far from thousands of g's (still amazing though).

Don't go confusing low end with high end estimates.

So, this is the amount of force that he can survive - but not the speed that he is capable of moving (wasn't that around 50 or so g's?).

How the hell do you think he survived that kind of impact, exactly? He had to use the Force to provide enough deceleration in a short enough period of time to prevent himself from splatting into the speeder. Anakin is a normal human - he doesn't have any sort of innate super-toughness, except by what he gains in using the Force.

This would be (IMHO) still a lot less than the speed that Neo shows at the end of Reloaded (I did not calculate this, so please do not ask for any calculations - it is simply the impression that Reloaded gave me).

Did Neo create sonic booms when he accelerated? If not, your subjective impression is bullshit, even if we use the conservative 50 gee figure. Which means that unless you do the calculations, you don't have a leg to stand on, here.

[Connor MacLeod]

Odd idea: If a Jedi can take that sort of crushing punishment as ANakin's speeder death drop, does that mean you could beat them with a stick and wouldn't even notice? It would seem to be so, but then, I did notice that Jedi seem to have different sets of abilities depending on whether the object is a living being or not. Wierd.

A Jedi is not (substantially) tougher intrinsically - Anakin certainly isn't. They use the Force to nullify the acceleration (or provide it) - without the Force, if they are struck, they are going to react as any human would.

[Shinova]

About Neo's flight startup:

Weren't they all in bullet-time or slow-mo? I recall during the 100 Smiths fight when Neo started up all the Smiths in the background were moving slowly. I think that could mean that Neo's startup is actually a lot faster than we all think it is.

[Durandal]

Jedi can accelerate on the order of thousands of g's. Neo's outclassed.

Thousands of g's?! Where did that come from? I know that they can accelerate very quickly (going up to highway speeds in a split second), but thousands of g's?

I suspect he's referring to their ability to withstand thousands of Gs, as Anakin must have done when he fell from considerable distance onto Zam Wessel's airspeeder on Coruscant. The shock of impact onto her airspeeder (not to mention being dragged to her airspeed) would probably measure an extremely high acceleration, although I haven't calculated it.

No, it was a genuine fuckup. I misremembered the figures you derived for their acceleration capabilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thousands of g's?! Where did that come from? I know that they can accelerate very quickly (going up to highway speeds in a split second), but thousands of g's?

I suspect he's referring to their ability to withstand thousands of Gs, as Anakin must have done when he fell from considerable distance onto Zam Wessel's airspeeder on Coruscant. The shock of impact onto her airspeeder (not to mention being dragged to her airspeed) would probably measure an extremely high acceleration, although I haven't calculated it.

No, it was a genuine fuckup. I misremembered the figures you derived for their acceleration capabilities.

Yes, but your fuckup resulted in some genuinely useful results, so maybe you were correct even by mistake. (You can go ahead and gloat now )

[Durandal]

Note to self: Think, then write ...

If I figured it right (just divide the force through 9.81), then that would be between 350 and 116 g's.

Granted, this is a very generous estimate, but far from thousands of g's (still amazing though).

It assumes 1 sec deceleration time, which is extremely conservative. The accurate number is probably much higher.

It's probably in the thousands of g's anyway. Not only does Anakin's momentum along the z-axis go to zero, but he picks up a shitload of momentum in the x-axis as well during the same time span due to latching on to the speeder.

I'd say that a 1 s deceleration time is almost ridiculously conservative. The speeder's drop due to Anakin's impact was negligible, so there wasn't a whole lot of cushioning for the fall. Lack of cushioning means less stopping distance, which means less stopping time, which means more acceleration and more force. A more accurate time would probably be something in the area of 0.05 seconds.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's probably in the thousands of g's anyway. Not only does Anakin's momentum along the z-axis go to zero, but he picks up a shitload of momentum in the x-axis as well during the same time span due to latching on to the speeder.

I'd say that a 1 s deceleration time is almost ridiculously conservative. The speeder's drop due to Anakin's impact was negligible, so there wasn't a whole lot of cushioning for the fall. Lack of cushioning means less stopping distance, which means less stopping time, which means more acceleration and more force. A more accurate time would probably be something in the area of 0.05 seconds.

From what I could observe by frame-by frame observation, its between 1-3 frames, and its definitely no more than 5 frames (5 being the absolute "slowest")

[Connor MacLeod]

Just to preempt the claim that there was some sort of Anti-gravity field accelerating Anakin along with it - when Zam accelerates, Anakin's body is "shiftd" along the speeder - his own momentum does not change at the same rate as that which Zam's ship does - hence if he is "holding on", it is by the Force itself.

Also, in terms of top speed, I forgot to add that Zam's speeder tops out at some 800 kph (according to the AOTC ICS) - this works out to 222 meters per second.)

[Crown]

Jeez, I can't believe how generous I am being with these calculations and I am still being nitpicked for them...

*Shakes Head*

[Ender]

I'd like to point out that there is still the KE Anakin has to deal with in addition to the momentum. If he is 70 kilos and his terminal velocity is 49 m/s, he just absorbed 168 kilojoules without a problem.

Also considering the momentum he cna deal with, this means that if he is prepared, Anakin doesn't even have to deflect those bullets, he can just let them hit him and fall to the ground after he absorbs the KE and Momentum.

Incidently, anyone try his jumping down from the canyon scene?

[Crown]

Alright, I will redo the calcs, using Damien's and Connor's new time frame. Now Connor tells me that Anakin (or more accurately Hayden) weighs in at 159lb which is 72kg, so we'll continue to use the 70kg mass figure as before.

Also remembering that the very concervative terminal velocity in Coruscant was 49m/s (this should be higher, but I will use it just the same).

The only thing I will be altering is the deceleration time, which Damien estimates to be about 0.05s and Connor (by counting frames) says that time will vary thusly; 0.042 < t < 0.21. I will use Connor's for the variance of Force;

So v = 49 m/s.

Anakin's mass is about 70kg, which will give us a momentum prior to impact with the speeder of;

P = m*v
P = 70 * 49
P = 3430 N/s

Using the new time estimates (0.042 < t < 0.21) So;

F = m*a = ΔP/Δt = m*Δv/Δt

where Δv = u - v
u = initial velocity (49 m/s)
v = final veloctiy (0 m/s in the vertical plane)

Thus; Δv = 49 - 0 = 49 m/s

Δt = 0.042 < t < 0.21

F = m*Δv/Δt
F = 70*49/0.042
F = 81,666.7 N or 8324.8 gravities!

For the entire time possible (0.042 < t < 0.21) gives us a rough variance of;

16,333.3 N < F < 81,666.7 N

Or in terms of g's;

1664.9 g < t < 8324.8 g



So Damien was indeed right.

[Crown]

I'd like to point out that there is still the KE Anakin has to deal with in addition to the momentum. If he is 70 kilos and his terminal velocity is 49 m/s, he just absorbed 168 kilojoules without a problem.

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat..

Also considering the momentum he cna deal with, this means that if he is prepared, Anakin doesn't even have to deflect those bullets, he can just let them hit him and fall to the ground after he absorbs the KE and Momentum.

That would depend, I assume on his 'skin tension' or how much pressue per sqaure inch he can take, before his skin is pierced. Although I could be wrong about that, and I am talking about something I have never really thought of before.

Incidently, anyone try his jumping down from the canyon scene?

It would actually be lower than hitting the speeder for two reasons;

• He wasn't falling for as long, so he would be travelling at a speed lower than terminal velocity.
• He landed on his feet, meaning he bent his knees, thus allowing the decelleration time to be lengthened, reducing the force that he had to extert.

With the last point though, it would give us a low end estimate of how strong his legs are, which would come in useful.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat..

Its possible he absorbed it and redirected it. However, if he "decelerated" himself with the Force, would that not in fact affect the kinetic energy applied?

And of coruse lets not forget that as Durandal pointed out, this still ignores the momentum he absorbed from the speeder's own acceleration (which itself weighs at least a ton, and can travel up to 200 meters per second or more)

[Super-Gagme]

About Neo's flight startup:

Weren't they all in bullet-time or slow-mo? I recall during the 100 Smiths fight when Neo started up all the Smiths in the background were moving slowly. I think that could mean that Neo's startup is actually a lot faster than we all think it is.

I like how this and the before mentioned fact that zionists may not breathe are being totally ignored in the argument

I would also like to add that Neo was shot 3 times in the chest in the first movie and it did not kill him. Add this to the possibility that he may not breathe and it could mean Neo cannot die through conventional means in the Matrix. That is just one theory, don't ass rape me for it. Also because of what we saw with him getting back up and the possibility of not breathing you could also say that Neo cannot be affected by Force Choke on organs or throat.

[Connor MacLeod]

Another minor point struck me. Given that Coruscant's gravity is bout 1.42 times that of Earth's, wouldn't this mean the Average Jedi (Stationed on Coruscant. or trained there at least) would be typically used to operating in such a gravity field (which means that in a lower-gravity field, they might be superior to a measure.)

[Crown]

Another minor point struck me. Given that Coruscant's gravity is bout 1.42 times that of Earth's, wouldn't this mean the Average Jedi (Stationed on Coruscant. or trained there at least) would be typically used to operating in such a gravity field (which means that in a lower-gravity field, they might be superior to a measure.)

Sure, we know that from the space program that gravity affects bone density and muscle density (it deteriates in the absense of and slowly re-couperates after they are returned to mother Earth). What we don't know (or what we haven't been able to test and measure), is what happens to human physiology in a higher gravity than Earth standard.

However given that we have seen that both bones and muscles rebuild themselves after having deteriated, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that any human that grew up in Coruscant, would have a higher bone desity and muscle mass density, meaning they are stronger than someone who grew up on Earth by default.

[Darth Wong]

I like how this and the before mentioned fact that zionists may not breathe are being totally ignored in the argument

They are shown breathing, and suffering injury from impacts. That was not a "fact"; it was a speculation supported only by a deliberately narrow interpretation of a single line of dialogue.

I would also like to add that Neo was shot 3 times in the chest in the first movie and it did not kill him.

Actually, it did. His heart stopped. But he resuscitated himself for some reason. If you're going to simply resort to the argument that he can come back from death so he can never really lose, that is a huge copout and we might as well resort to Anakin using orbital bombardment over Neo's real-life position.

[Durandal]

I'd like to point out that there is still the KE Anakin has to deal with in addition to the momentum. If he is 70 kilos and his terminal velocity is 49 m/s, he just absorbed 168 kilojoules without a problem.

Kinetic energy in collisions does not have to be conserved, while momentum always must be. So, generally, we don't care too much about kinetic energy when talking about collisions, and Anakin's collision with the speeder was most likely an inelastic collision. A portion of his kinetic energy was radiated away as sound, and another portion away as useless heat.

[Connor MacLeod]

However given that we have seen that both bones and muscles rebuild themselves after having deteriated, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that any human that grew up in Coruscant, would have a higher bone desity and muscle mass density, meaning they are stronger than someone who grew up on Earth by default.

Would it only affect strength, though? I was under the impression that reflexes/speed might increase too - am I wrong?

[Super-Gagme]

I like how this and the before mentioned fact that zionists may not breathe are being totally ignored in the argument

They are shown breathing, and suffering injury from impacts. That was not a "fact"; it was a speculation supported only by a deliberately narrow interpretation of a single line of dialogue.

Sorry, bad english on my part. Though I did say "fact that zionists MAY NOT breath" but I'm sure you just didn't notice that.

And I did say Neo being un-killable was just a theory! And not to ass rape me. Maybe I should not have mentioned it because of the fuckers around here who want to pick the smallest things out of posts to make comments that seem to put arguments slightly in their favor while not actually contributing in any way. Er well anyways my main point in that post was the inability for Neo to be Force Choked but as you can see you totally IGNORED that fact and jumped straight to what you could insult. What can I expect? I'll just go back to lurking, I am impartial to this argument I just was adding some ideas.

[Crown]

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat..

Its possible he absorbed it and redirected it. However, if he "decelerated" himself with the Force, would that not in fact affect the kinetic energy applied?

Well that depends on how you view how Anakin used the Force really. I mean did he use it to empower himself (like actually strengthening his body), or as an external device (like the way you are suggesting). Either way, his body defenitely underwent that deceleration, and as Damien pointed out when we look at collisions Momentum is king.

And of coruse lets not forget that as Durandal pointed out, this still ignores the momentum he absorbed from the speeder's own acceleration (which itself weighs at least a ton, and can travel up to 200 meters per second or more)

Indeed, thus this is why this is a 'low-end' estimate.

However given that we have seen that both bones and muscles rebuild themselves after having deteriated, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that any human that grew up in Coruscant, would have a higher bone desity and muscle mass density, meaning they are stronger than someone who grew up on Earth by default.

Would it only affect strength, though? I was under the impression that reflexes/speed might increase too - am I wrong?

I have no idea. Speed and reflexes are really determined on what type of muscles you have (fast twitch/slow twitch), whereas strength is just the sum of work that muscles can do.

Human physiology is hardly my forte, so I don't want to even take a stab at this, but I think it would be safe to say that yes, probably he is faster and has quicker reflexes. But that's just an uneducated guess from me really.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well that depends on how you view how Anakin used the Force really. I mean did he use it to empower himself (like actually strengthening his body), or as an external device (like the way you are suggesting). Either way, his body defenitely underwent that deceleration, and as Damien pointed out when we look at collisions Momentum is king.

To be fair, I dont see how it really matters, since the rate of acceleration exceeds normal human tolerances anyhow, which requires a uniform application of force to prevent lethal side-effects, if I am not mistaken.

The implications this has for Force telekinesis is staggering

[Crown]

Well that depends on how you view how Anakin used the Force really. I mean did he use it to empower himself (like actually strengthening his body), or as an external device (like the way you are suggesting). Either way, his body defenitely underwent that deceleration, and as Damien pointed out when we look at collisions Momentum is king.

To be fair, I dont see how it really matters, since the rate of acceleration exceeds normal human tolerances anyhow, which requires a uniform application of force to prevent lethal side-effects, if I am not mistaken.

The implications this has for Force telekinesis is staggering

Exactly. It's like we were talking about the same thing all along isn't it?