Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It only needs to have a few examples, and then make sure the word gets around.

You are joking. The Imperium of Man is more likely to fight them to the death than surrender. Just look at how they fight the Tyranids; they'd rather burn their own planets rather than let the Hive Fleet take it.

[Darth Hoth]

The Revenge of the Sith ICS outright states that the main guns on a Venator class have a range of ten lightminutes.

So that would be a safe lower limit for an Imperial-II, then. Thanks; I finally got around to buying a copy of the Complete ICS, but at present a buddy has borrowed it.

You are joking. The Imperium of Man is more likely to fight them to the death than surrender. Just look at how they fight the Tyranids; they'd rather burn their own planets rather than let the Hive Fleet take it.

There does appear to be some difference between ravaging omnicidal aliens from beyond the galactic pale and a civilised human society that on the whole follows the Geneva Conventions and promises to liberate you and yours from totalitarian Socialist theocracy and grinding poverty, would you not agree?

[Samuel]

It only needs to have a few examples, and then make sure the word gets around.

You are joking. The Imperium of Man is more likely to fight them to the death than surrender. Just look at how they fight the Tyranids; they'd rather burn their own planets rather than let the Hive Fleet take it.

They do that because it is the only way to stop the Nids. If they don't, the Tyranids will keep on coming and coming and coming. By contrast, the Empire are freaking white hats in the 40K universe.

Look at the opening blurb on Mike's website (Extragalactic division) to get an idea of what would happen.

What is harder is getting the word around. Travel times take too long and FTL coms are controlled by the government.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There does appear to be some difference between ravaging omnicidal aliens from beyond the galactic pale and a civilised human society that on the whole follows the Geneva Conventions and promises to liberate you and yours from totalitarian Socialist theocracy and grinding poverty, would you not agree?

A what huh? The Empire follows the Geneva Conventions? You jest? Half the people on the thread are suggesting the Empire simply blast every single Imperium planet to oblivion and you are saying the Empire seeks to liberate them? The Empire has to commit substantial forces on such an enterprise (at least more than 24 ISDIIs and assorted troop vessels per world, to deploy at least a million of troops and armour), and they might get bogged down so long that it might give the Imperium time to retaliate. I remember at least a number of "outer rim sieges" lasted for weeks to months. Weeks is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet.

They do that because it is the only way to stop the Nids. If they don't, the Tyranids will keep on coming and coming and coming. By contrast, the Empire are freaking white hats in the 40K universe.

That hasn't stopped the Imperium from declaring war on any human civilisation that refused to submit to the Emperor. Read: Horus Rising. The first battle in the book involved taking down a human empire for refusing to bow to the Emperor of Man.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ghetto EDIT: "Weeks to months is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet."

[Bilbo]

Ghetto EDIT: "Weeks to months is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet."

A good hundred or so? Well unless the average Imperium ship can take 4 to 10 Imperial Navy ships on each I do not see that number being all that impressive.

On the other hand if say the Galactic Empire and the Imperium were somehow say linked via a wormhole like the big fanfiction of this website then once the Galactic Empire spent more than a week there they would leave. It wouldnt even take that long for the Empire to say "damn that galaxy sucks, no reason to stick around, half the place is trashed and the locals are all lunatics. We are better off making sure what happens in the ghetto stays in the ghetto." Then you would see the Galactic Empire doing whatever it could to close whatever linked existed between the two places or at least locking it up with enough forces to make certain nothing could ever get through.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I think there are sources (New Jedi Order?) that indicate light-minute range at least for capital ship-grade weapons.

The Revenge of the Sith ICS outright states that the main guns on a Venator class have a range of ten lightminutes.

The figure listed in the RotSICS was, I believe, the range at which it could hit a ship (presumably one that isn't maneouvering). In either Rebel Stand or Rebel Dawn in the NJO, a Republican starship launched a turbolaser barrage on a small point on an orbiting Yuuzhan Vong worldship (which is the size of a small moon, IIRC, not a whole planet) from so far outside the system that the Vong thought the attack was coming from some sort of FTL interstellar attack. This and Vader's reaction to Adm. Ozzel's attack on Hoth imply that ranges for planetary bombardment may extend into the light-hour range.

[Samuel]

There does appear to be some difference between ravaging omnicidal aliens from beyond the galactic pale and a civilised human society that on the whole follows the Geneva Conventions and promises to liberate you and yours from totalitarian Socialist theocracy and grinding poverty, would you not agree?

A what huh? The Empire follows the Geneva Conventions? You jest? Half the people on the thread are suggesting the Empire simply blast every single Imperium planet to oblivion and you are saying the Empire seeks to liberate them? The Empire has to commit substantial forces on such an enterprise (at least more than 24 ISDIIs and assorted troop vessels per world, to deploy at least a million of troops and armour), and they might get bogged down so long that it might give the Imperium time to retaliate. I remember at least a number of "outer rim sieges" lasted for weeks to months. Weeks is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet.

Compared to the Imperium, the Empire is extremely lenient. Their response to rebellion is to crush it and punish the survivors. The Imperium is more likely to just kill everyone. Look at how it dealt with the Wookies- they rose up against the Empire and its response? Did it slag the planet? Did it slaughter the populace? No- it sent in ground troops, decisively defeat the Wookies and enslaved them.

The reason the Empire would slag Imperium planets is because the Imperium has incredibly tough ground forces (stupid table top).

As for sieges taking a long time, that is because the Star Wars universe has very good planetary shields. Of course, the Empire has a counter- the Death Star.

They do that because it is the only way to stop the Nids. If they don't, the Tyranids will keep on coming and coming and coming. By contrast, the Empire are freaking white hats in the 40K universe.

That hasn't stopped the Imperium from declaring war on any human civilisation that refused to submit to the Emperor. Read: Horus Rising. The first battle in the book involved taking down a human empire for refusing to bow to the Emperor of Man.

Empire, not the Imperium. I know the Imperium beats up everyone who refuses to submit. The Empire has set up puppet states and sponsored political parties to rule territories, something the Imperium only does to take over worlds.

[NecronLord]

You are joking. The Imperium of Man is more likely to fight them to the death than surrender. Just look at how they fight the Tyranids; they'd rather burn their own planets rather than let the Hive Fleet take it.

Being captured by the 'nids is a fate worse than death. Being captured by the Empire is not.

A what huh? The Empire follows the Geneva Conventions? You jest? Half the people on the thread are suggesting the Empire simply blast every single Imperium planet to oblivion and you are saying the Empire seeks to liberate them?

You know, I hate to point this out, but that's not a violation of the Geneva Convention; or indeed, any of our laws of war. Harry Truman did not violate the laws of war per se, when he dropped atom bombs on Japan for continuing to resist.

Same thing, bigger scale.

This is not, of course, to say that they'd stick with the geneva convention (they actually have torture droids, damnit) but that in itself is not a warcrime, provided the planet has legitimate military forces you need to destroy.

The Empire has to commit substantial forces on such an enterprise (at least more than 24 ISDIIs and assorted troop vessels per world, to deploy at least a million of troops and armour),

Twenty four ISDs per planet? Whatever for? The Imperium has less warp capable ships than it has worlds.

and they might get bogged down so long that it might give the Imperium time to retaliate. I remember at least a number of "outer rim sieges" lasted for weeks to months. Weeks is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet.

No it's not. In some cases, an Imperium response takes months or years to be filtered through the bureacracy.

That hasn't stopped the Imperium from declaring war on any human civilisation that refused to submit to the Emperor. Read: Horus Rising. The first battle in the book involved taking down a human empire for refusing to bow to the Emperor of Man.

Yes. They'll declare war. And they'll lose. Imagine trying to fight a war against people whose strategic movement is thousands of times faster than your own.

[Darth Hoth]

A what huh? The Empire follows the Geneva Conventions? You jest?

No; when Tycho was captured in the X-wing comic (The Rebel Opposition arc, if I recall correctly), he surrendered peacefully and rattled off name, rank and pay number. That suggests the Imperial practice for handling prisoners is similar enough to our rules. Of course, those rules are broken at times; Imperial soldiers, just like other humans, are fallible, and local commander are not always rigorous in enforcing the prisoners' rights.

Half the people on the thread are suggesting the Empire simply blast every single Imperium planet to oblivion and you are saying the Empire seeks to liberate them?

Note that I am not those people. Were I the Imperial commander, I would use orbital supremacy to destroy planetary defences and large concentrations of enemy troops, not to glass surfaces for the hell of it. Imperial artillery is precise enough to limit collateral damage. The "Hearts and Minds" bit kicks in when the planet is occupied by my forces; I emphatically am not willing to accept that every single civilian will throw her baby at our bayonets rather than surrender. Human beings do not work that way; there will be a share of fanatics, but it will be very small compared to the overall population, which will greet our eight-hour working days, plentiful food, political freedoms and indoor plumbing with extreme enthusiasm once they become aware of our intentions and have it demonstrated that the Imperium cannot retaliate. (And we do have evidence of people surrendering to things like the Tau, or even Chaos, which is way worse than the Empire, or the Draka or much anything for that matter.) KJA aside, Palpatine's military planners are not all misogynistic sociopaths with low double-digit intelligence quotients; they will realise how they should make things work. Look at Kashyyyk's portrayal in the Han Solo trilogy; this is supposedly a slave planet, but the Wookiees are granted a more than fair amount of internal autonomy as long as they do not misbehave on a large scale.

The Empire has to commit substantial forces on such an enterprise (at least more than 24 ISDIIs and assorted troop vessels per world, to deploy at least a million of troops and armour), and they might get bogged down so long that it might give the Imperium time to retaliate.

How, if the organised resistance is blown up from orbit? Troops deployed will be for mop-up at worst, policing alone in many cases (the more primitive/lightly defended worlds). And jumping in large numbers of troop carriers is not terribly difficult.

I remember at least a number of "outer rim sieges" lasted for weeks to months. Weeks is enough time for the Imperium to deploy millions of Imperial Guard, and Chapters of Space Marines and a good hundred or so vessels from the local Segmentum fleet.

So when they are sent in, the Empire calls for reinforcements and traps them? I went over this in an earlier post; with hyperdrive being as arbitrarily fast and reliable as it is, the Empire will achieve local superiority in any given battle it deems significant enough to want to win (which would be nearly all). The Imperium cannot defeat them in space since they cannot deliver reinforcements and supplies at any meaningful speeds. Something of an analogue might be the Michael Offensive in the First World War; the French, being on the defence, could move in fresh reinforcements to any area by rail, as it was fought on their ground; the Germans, slogging their way through devastated No Man's Land, could not, so their attacks were blunted and eventually faltered.

That hasn't stopped the Imperium from declaring war on any human civilisation that refused to submit to the Emperor. Read: Horus Rising. The first battle in the book involved taking down a human empire for refusing to bow to the Emperor of Man.

The Imperium as such, as in the High Lords of Terra, Inquisition et al, will not surrender unless wiped out. Local forces and populations will, once they realise a) the Empire's crushing superiority, and b) our aim of spreading a normal (=by their standards positively utopian) society to them.

[Darth Hoth]

This is not, of course, to say that they'd stick with the geneva convention (they actually have torture droids, damnit) but that in itself is not a warcrime, provided the planet has legitimate military forces you need to destroy.

They are a well-enough kept secret that Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan, Senator and Rebel agent, did not know of them till she saw one, indicating that they are either illegal or politically distasteful, much like Grand Admiral Pitta's violently illegal xenocidal campaigns in the Outer Rim. The Empire does have its abuses, but they are mostly covered up and perpetrated on a small scale; if they were institutionalised throughout the Service, they would not remain secret for long.

Twenty four ISDs per planet? Whatever for? The Imperium has less warp capable ships than it has worlds.

He meant to transport and deploy troops, I believe.

[Ford Prefect]

Look at Kashyyyk's portrayal in the Han Solo trilogy; this is supposedly a slave planet, but the Wookiees are granted a more than fair amount of internal autonomy as long as they do not misbehave on a large scale.

The Han Solo trilogy also mentions the Empire suppressing a protest by incinerating it with the engines of a small starship. Also, at the end of the day, Wookie independance on Kashyyyk is countered by the fact that the Empire really does tear them away from their homes and use them for forced labour, and it is indicated in The Force Unleashed that they intend to do it across the entire Wookie population.

[Darth Hoth]

The Han Solo trilogy also mentions the Empire suppressing a protest by incinerating it with the engines of a small starship.

Assuming that you are referring to the Ghorman Massacre, this was Tarkin, the ideologue who dreamt of ruling by fear and illegally destroyed Alderaan, a major Imperial member state, with a superweapon. He is rather exceptional. And if I recall correctly, that instance raised such an uproar precisely because it was the first time such a thing happened. It clearly was not standard procedure; Tarkin hung by a thread, but stayed on because he had technically done no wrong; they were standing on a landing platform, and he had ordered them to disperse for their own safety as he landed.

Also, at the end of the day, Wookie independance on Kashyyyk is countered by the fact that the Empire really does tear them away from their homes and use them for forced labour, and it is indicated in The Force Unleashed that they intend to do it across the entire Wookie population.

How clearly is it indicated? It certainly was not implemented in the decade or so afterwards, as Kashyyyk was able to liberate itself and join the Alliance of free Planets, the proto-New Republic, shortly after Endor. And the reason I used Kashyyyk as an example was precisely because it is supposedly among the worst hellholes the Imperial State has to offer; it has been legally declared a slave planet, for crying out loud, its people declared nonsentient and Untermensch in the very most literal sense. Yet do we see GULags, random mass executions, famine? No; some Wookiees are removed for forced labour, where at least some of them are treated horribly, through intermediaries in the local Wookiee authority (e.g., Ralrracheen), but the majority live in relative peace and can even snipe at the occasional Imperial patrol that does venture into their territory without fear of massive retaliation. I would say their situation compares at the very least favourably to that of the average Soviet citizen in the Stalin era (Vichy France is probably more like it), and compared to the Imperium of Man Stalin was Gandhi. As noted, this at one of the very worst locations in the Empire, one recently conquered and still under military administration, with a population that is by and large uncooperative.

[Samuel]

Look at Kashyyyk's portrayal in the Han Solo trilogy; this is supposedly a slave planet, but the Wookiees are granted a more than fair amount of internal autonomy as long as they do not misbehave on a large scale.

The Han Solo trilogy also mentions the Empire suppressing a protest by incinerating it with the engines of a small starship. Also, at the end of the day, Wookie independance on Kashyyyk is countered by the fact that the Empire really does tear them away from their homes and use them for forced labour, and it is indicated in The Force Unleashed that they intend to do it across the entire Wookie population.

Which the Imperium does on a regular basis for many of its people. The required tithle is troops, many of which never return home, either dying or being resettled.

Not to mention that taking people away from their homes in the Empire isn't as big a deal- you can hope on a ship and go right back.

As for suppressing protests with force... they both do that. The differance is that the Empire would probably just stun humans- they have a lower tolerance for aliens, particularly ones that could kill riot troops with their bare hands.

[Samuel]

Edit- what I mean by

Not to mention that taking people away from their homes in the Empire isn't as big a deal- you can hope on a ship and go right back.

Is that it isn't like those taken for forced labor will never see home again. In fact, most of them do once they are liberated. Transit is safe and fast enough that they can do that.

[NecronLord]

Where are you getting the idea that Pitta's activities or the destruction of Alderann were illegal? The Emperor signed off on the latter, and probably the former. That surely makes it legal; the Emperor is invested with very great emergency powers.

[Darth Hoth]

Where are you getting the idea that Pitta's activities or the destruction of Alderann were illegal? The Emperor signed off on the latter, and probably the former. That surely makes it legal; the Emperor is invested with very great emergency powers.

Tarkin's case has been discussed multiple times in PSW; the gist is, while the Emperor did grant him extraordinary powers, he did not have the authority to destroy Alderaan without the Emperor's express approval, and Vader called him on this (though his objection was overruled). There is a quote from the ANH Radio Drama to illustrate.

Pitta's xenocidal actions were against the Imperial Constitution, which grants all sapients of the Empire equal rights, in addition to comprising criminal mass murder of innocents. There is a reason why he prowled the Rim with a few Dungeon Ships instead of setting up massive camps and ovens in the Core; he was acting on his own, without Imperial approval.

For that matter, Palpatine pre-ANH was not an omnipotent "my-word-is-law" Führer; if so, that would make his great effort to hide atrocities and abuses from Senate oversight confusing in the extreme. Disbanding the Senate pending the end of the state of emergency was a drastically radical move, given that senior officers thought it would bring ruin to Imperial authority.

[Ford Prefect]

How clearly is it indicated?

They're building a skyhook at the time of the game for the express, stated purpose of lifting the entire population of Kashyyyk in under a year. One of the objectives of that mission is to destroy the skyhook before it can be completed.

It certainly was not implemented in the decade or so afterwards, as Kashyyyk was able to liberate itself and join the Alliance of free Planets, the proto-New Republic, shortly after Endor. And the reason I used Kashyyyk as an example was precisely because it is supposedly among the worst hellholes the Imperial State has to offer; it has been legally declared a slave planet, for crying out loud, its people declared nonsentient and Untermensch in the very most literal sense. Yet do we see GULags, random mass executions, famine? No; some Wookiees are removed for forced labour, where at least some of them are treated horribly, through intermediaries in the local Wookiee authority (e.g., Ralrracheen), but the majority live in relative peace and can even snipe at the occasional Imperial patrol that does venture into their territory without fear of massive retaliation. I would say their situation compares at the very least favourably to that of the average Soviet citizen in the Stalin era (Vichy France is probably more like it), and compared to the Imperium of Man Stalin was Gandhi. As noted, this at one of the very worst locations in the Empire, one recently conquered and still under military administration, with a population that is by and large uncooperative.

Would you honestly expect the Empire to randomly execute masses of the people which they are using by the million as slaves? Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose. The majority live in peace, up until the Empire requires another order of Wookie slaves to work on whatever it is they want to work on, be it the Death Star or extenstions to a museum. You can't really put that much of a positive spin on it; yes, the Empire leaves the Wookies alone, but their only interest in the Wookies is in taking them for labour purposes.

Which the Imperium does on a regular basis for many of its people. The required tithle is troops, many of which never return home, either dying or being resettled.

You will note that I did not say anything about the Imperium. Until now, I have stated no opinion regarding the Imperium versus the Empire.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Twenty four ISDs per planet? Whatever for? The Imperium has less warp capable ships than it has worlds.

Last I checked, 1 ISD carries some 10,000 or so troops. Unless you are suggesting, that 25,000 troops is enough to take on the local PDF. Heck, an Executor only has 250,000 crew and troops.

How, if the organised resistance is blown up from orbit? Troops deployed will be for mop-up at worst, policing alone in many cases (the more primitive/lightly defended worlds). And jumping in large numbers of troop carriers is not terribly difficult.

Try nuking all the hive cities, because that's where the resistance will be. And a Hive City maintains its own PDF, and in some cases, under a shield.

The Imperium as such, as in the High Lords of Terra, Inquisition et al, will not surrender unless wiped out. Local forces and populations will, once they realise a) the Empire's crushing superiority, and b) our aim of spreading a normal (=by their standards positively utopian) society to them.

That depends. THeir religion is pretty deep and you probably have Chaos cults springing up after that. Good luck to the EMpire trying to suppress something they have no defence against.

[K. A. Pital]

Good luck to the EMpire trying to suppress something they have no defence against.

Chaos is considerably weakened. As some noted, the GEoM can wipe the floor with Chaos gods even before the Empire sets foot into the WH40K. Solving the problem before it even starts to bug the Empire, hehehe. Else, do you think the Empire would not get information about Chaos from the massive amounts of defectors, POWs?

[Ford Prefect]

Chaos is considerably weakened. As some noted, the GEoM can wipe the floor with Chaos gods even before the Empire sets foot into the WH40K. Solving the problem before it even starts to bug the Empire, hehehe. Else, do you think the Empire would not get information about Chaos from the massive amounts of defectors, POWs?

Even setting aside the weakened (or dead) Chaos pantheon, for the most part - and this has been mentioned several time - Chaos acts through mortal/physical proxies, as a rule. Outside of places like the Eye, the Maelstrom and obviously the Immaterium, it's not like the Ruinous Powers have free reign over the universe. Unlike the Emperor, who can start sector devouring Warp storms despite Chaos interference, they are relatively limited.

[Darth Raptor]

It would be interesting to know how the GEoM would react. Assuming it's true that he's one heartbeat away from apotheosis, he could be trouble (understatement) and a compelling reason to cutoff Holy Terra and/or capture it with the Golden Throne intact.

As I understand it, the (God) Emperor wouldn't exactly be happy with the present state of His Imperium if he were in any condition to know and/or do anything about it. Considering he was apparently content to subtly manipulate humanity from behind the scenes for thirty thousand years, might the (Galactic) Emperor have a potential ally? Because a more peaceful integration of the Imperium (as opposed to outright conquest) would be awesome.

Must... not... start... new... fanfic...

[Samuel]

It would be interesting to know how the GEoM would react. Assuming it's true that he's one heartbeat away from apotheosis, he could be trouble (understatement) and a compelling reason to cutoff Holy Terra and/or capture it with the Golden Throne intact.

As I understand it, the (God) Emperor wouldn't exactly be happy with the present state of His Imperium if he were in any condition to know and/or do anything about it. Considering he was apparently content to subtly manipulate humanity from behind the scenes for thirty thousand years, might the (Galactic) Emperor have a potential ally? Because a more peaceful integration of the Imperium (as opposed to outright conquest) would be awesome.

Must... not... start... new... fanfic...

He is fine with the current state. He interferes constantly- the Emperor's tarot is a common example.

[Darth Raptor]

My understanding is that they go to Him with only the absolute most pressing concerns, as he's basically got bigger shit to worry about with all the psychic shenanigans and goings on than to worry about the plight of the peasants.

In this case, "If only the Emperor knew and wasn't preoccupied holding the universe at bay."

[Ford Prefect]

It would be interesting to know how the GEoM would react. Assuming it's true that he's one heartbeat away from apotheosis, he could be trouble (understatement) and a compelling reason to cutoff Holy Terra and/or capture it with the Golden Throne intact.

Understatement indeed. There is honestly no way to quantify likely involvement on the part of the God Emperor, but suffice to say his powers far eclipse anything and everything the Empire can even begin to bring to bear. The ability to destroy a planet actually is insignificant compared to the will of the God Emperor. But again, acts of god aren't exactly readily quantifiable, and should be disregarded.

As I understand it, the (God) Emperor wouldn't exactly be happy with the present state of His Imperium if he were in any condition to know and/or do anything about it. Considering he was apparently content to subtly manipulate humanity from behind the scenes for thirty thousand years, might the (Galactic) Emperor have a potential ally? Because a more peaceful integration of the Imperium (as opposed to outright conquest) would be awesome.

The Imperium has deviated from the Emperor's original plans, but it is not likely that he would ally himself with Palpatine. Palpatine is unashamedly evil, and there is no way he could hide this from the Emperor; you can't exactly worm your way into the confidence of a being who once pulled the soul out of one of his servants just to get a better idea of who he was. Any 'encounter' between Palpatine and the Emperor is going to begin with Palpatine's brain getting probed from top to bottom; the scale of their powers is that different. Honestly, this is going entirely into the realms of speculation - Inquisitors spend a lot of time arguing (with shotguns) about the nature of the Emperor and how changed or unchanged his ten thousand years of Throne time has left him. The Emperor really should be left out of this debate.

Must... not... start... new... fanfic...

Yeah, you have another one to update, you bastard.