StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Kind of seems like a DrakaFic for SW.

I have heard of that, but I do not think I was around when it was going on. How did it work?

IP, let me preface this by saying that I essentially agree with you on the Windu and Death Star topics.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Windu did and could beat Sidious. No comparison.

Meh. I'm not 100% convinced that the whole duel wasn't Palpy playing Anakin's emotions, so I'm not completely sure that Windu really was capable of defeating Sidious (I haven't read the novelization though, so that might change my mind). That being said, for the purposes of this conversation I'll agree that you're right on this point.

Despite this, however, just because Windu was capable of beating Sidious at that point in time doesn't mean that he would be capable of beating him later. Let's assume that Windu survived that duel (although, I greatly prefer to assume that he did not).

If he didn't die, he still took some serious hurt, including a little bit of amputation. The physical beating that he took could have had long term effects. Even if there weren't any long-term physical effects, can you imagine the psychological effects? Windu was arrogant and sure of his abilities, and of the power of the Jedi order. Despite that, he was betrayed, beaten, and the Jedi wiped out. It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that this trauma would have sapped his will, and made him mentally unable to face Palpy.

The flip side of that is that it's entirely possible that in his time as Emperor, Sidious actually grew in power. He had the adoration of billions of sentients, and he could leach power from them through the dark side.

So, if Windu survived, it's quite possible that he would have stayed in hiding. I still don't like the idea of him surviving, though, and as far as I'm concerned, the preponderance of evidence says that he didn't.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The betrayal has a much lesser impact if no important Jedi die. This is obvious.

Agreed entirely.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:Do you have a reading problem? I never said Solo would be Supreme Executive Commander Of The Entire New Republic Fleet did I? No, I said he'd be commanding a Star Destroyer. How does that boot Ackbar out of the picture?

Its navally inaccurate and stupid; Han should rate an O-4 (LCDR) at best. He does not have the naval experience and such to be a commander of warships and that is not his specialty: small unit/naval aviator tactics and groundside asymmetrical warfare is.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Where do you think the New Republic would be getting all of these people who have the naval experience needed to command their expanding navy? With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the people in the galaxy who have that experience are Imperials. The number of experienced non-Imperials available will be far less than the demand. Is the NR going to start recruiting Imperial officers to command their navy? To a certain extent, sure, but that's going to be very rare, because they'll need to be sure that they can trust those Imperial officers before putting them in charge of significant assets. Not only that, but politically it looks bad to go around spouting propaganda about the evils of the Empire at the same time that you're recruiting all of the leaders of Imperial forces that you can find. In this environment, the NR would be promoting a lot of officers from within to whatever high level posts are open (especially when those officers are well-known heroes), regardless of whether they've really got the experience needed. That's the reality of an insurgent group becoming a legitimate military.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: I have discussed this very issue with naval noncommissioned officers, and they seem to think my scenario is more accurate than yours. That must be because you have more expertise on the subject, right?

Appeals to authority are a pretty poor debating tactic. That aside, any naval noncoms who you spoke to are going to be familiar with the way an existing, established military works. They are not likely to be familiar with how an insurgent group grows to become a conventional military.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The Empire built tens of thousands of Star Destroyers of a single brand, they built two Death Stars. Maybe they wouldn't because conventional warships are a better investment of the same money, manpower, production infrastructure, logistical support, and raw materials. Do you understand what "opportunity cost" means. Do you know what a production possibilities frontier is?

I agree with you fully on this point. For the investment, conventional warships will be more versatile and useful to an Imperial remnant than a Death Star. Of course, depending on who's in power, that doesn't neccessarily mean that a Death Star won't be built, but I would think that a platform like the Tarkin would be more likely to be built in a post-Endor Empire.

Finagle wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:Do you have a reading problem? I never said Solo would be Supreme Executive Commander Of The Entire New Republic Fleet did I? No, I said he'd be commanding a Star Destroyer. How does that boot Ackbar out of the picture?

Its navally inaccurate and stupid; Han should rate an O-4 (LCDR) at best. He does not have the naval experience and such to be a commander of warships and that is not his specialty: small unit/naval aviator tactics and groundside asymmetrical warfare is.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Where do you think the New Republic would be getting all of these people who have the naval experience needed to command their expanding navy? With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the people in the galaxy who have that experience are Imperials. The number of experienced non-Imperials available will be far less than the demand. Is the NR going to start recruiting Imperial officers to command their navy? To a certain extent, sure, but that's going to be very rare, because they'll need to be sure that they can trust those Imperial officers before putting them in charge of significant assets. Not only that, but politically it looks bad to go around spouting propaganda about the evils of the Empire at the same time that you're recruiting all of the leaders of Imperial forces that you can find. In this environment, the NR would be promoting a lot of officers from within to whatever high level posts are open (especially when those officers are well-known heroes), regardless of whether they've really got the experience needed. That's the reality of an insurgent group becoming a legitimate military.

This does pose an interesting question: How do the Rebels obtain trained officers for their forces? We do not see massive recruitment of Imperials in the Expanded Universe; in fact, were not former Imperials left out from the administration altogether up till the happenings in The New Rebellion? Yet they never appear short on such personnel, at least not before the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. When an experienced senior officer such as Baron Soontir Fel, a Colonel, defected, the Rebels used him as a simple Flight Officer (admittedly, this could be because they still distrusted him). A valuable asset such as Captain Tycho Celchu, also formerly of the Imperial Service, could be grounded on largely unsubstantiated allegations.

Finagle wrote:Despite this, however, just because Windu was capable of beating Sidious at that point in time doesn't mean that he would be capable of beating him later. Let's assume that Windu survived that duel (although, I greatly prefer to assume that he did not).

If he didn't die, he still took some serious hurt, including a little bit of amputation. The physical beating that he took could have had long term effects. Even if there weren't any long-term physical effects, can you imagine the psychological effects? Windu was arrogant and sure of his abilities, and of the power of the Jedi order. Despite that, he was betrayed, beaten, and the Jedi wiped out. It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that this trauma would have sapped his will, and made him mentally unable to face Palpy.

The flip side of that is that it's entirely possible that in his time as Emperor, Sidious actually grew in power. He had the adoration of billions of sentients, and he could leach power from them through the dark side.

He still previous had been able, and having him alive and around and not lending his CLEAR expertise to Luke and helping Obi-Wan and Yoda seems forced.

Finagle wrote:I have to disagree with you on this one. Where do you think the New Republic would be getting all of these people who have the naval experience needed to command their expanding navy? With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the people in the galaxy who have that experience are Imperials. The number of experienced non-Imperials available will be far less than the demand. Is the NR going to start recruiting Imperial officers to command their navy? To a certain extent, sure, but that's going to be very rare, because they'll need to be sure that they can trust those Imperial officers before putting them in charge of significant assets.

No, it'll be quite common. Madine, Crane, Dodonna, Rieckan, etc. All of these flag/general officers formally served in the Republic or Empire (you're also neglected retired Republican officers, or those encouraged - or forced - to retire because they weren't Palpatinists). How about Ackbar? Member states' militaries and colonial forces are also sources of veterans and officers. Where do you think the Confederacy got its officers? The NRDF is going to require a professional officer corps, and tapping Han to command Star Destroyers is neither going to work nor support espirit'd'corps.

Finagle wrote:Not only that, but politically it looks bad to go around spouting propaganda about the evils of the Empire at the same time that you're recruiting all of the leaders of Imperial forces that you can find. In this environment, the NR would be promoting a lot of officers from within to whatever high level posts are open (especially when those officers are well-known heroes), regardless of whether they've really got the experience needed. That's the reality of an insurgent group becoming a legitimate military.

No, it really isn't, if you look at history and common sense. Functionality is more important than propoganda.

Finagle wrote:Appeals to authority are a pretty poor debating tactic. That aside, any naval noncoms who you spoke to are going to be familiar with the way an existing, established military works. They are not likely to be familiar with how an insurgent group grows to become a conventional military.

I'm sorry, but if there is a relevent authority on how a professional naval service should operate, those currently serving in one are relevent authorities. Don't bullshit me. Furthermore, we know they preferentially acquired officers from legitimate sources (the Alliance to Restore the Republic was founded by three member states, from crying out loud, for and to whom they could contribute advisors and collaborators and even officers directly - especially after the Death Star).

Finagle wrote:I agree with you fully on this point. For the investment, conventional warships will be more versatile and useful to an Imperial remnant than a Death Star. Of course, depending on who's in power, that doesn't neccessarily mean that a Death Star won't be built, but I would think that a platform like the Tarkin would be more likely to be built in a post-Endor Empire.

I suspect that almost all investment will be in proven conventional military mobilization.

Darth Hoth wrote: This does pose an interesting question: How do the Rebels obtain trained officers for their forces? We do not see massive recruitment of Imperials in the Expanded Universe; in fact, were not former Imperials left out from the administration altogether up till the happenings in The New Rebellion? Yet they never appear short on such personnel, at least not before the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion. When an experienced senior officer such as Baron Soontir Fel, a Colonel, defected, the Rebels used him as a simple Flight Officer (admittedly, this could be because they still distrusted him). A valuable asset such as Captain Tycho Celchu, also formerly of the Imperial Service, could be grounded on largely unsubstantiated allegations.

First of all, as detailed, there are plenty of defections which continued to serve in the Alliance to Restore the Republic, the Alliance of Free Planets, and the New Republic. Secondly, you discount purged or retired Imperial officers, retired Republican officers, colonial and paramilitary officers, and the officer corps of collaborative member states.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:First of all, as detailed, there are plenty of defections which continued to serve in the Alliance to Restore the Republic, the Alliance of Free Planets, and the New Republic.

Yes, but with a ban on former Imperials in the Service in effect, will they be accepted?

Secondly, you discount purged or retired Imperial officers,

All right, I guess.

retired Republican officers,

Did the Republic have many educated officers? As I imagined it, ret-conned as per the post-prequel canon, their military was basically the clones. Or am I missing something?

colonial and paramilitary officers, and the officer corps of collaborative member states.

Such as Rogue Squadron's Ardele from the Commenor Militia? All right, that too makes sense. Although one would perhaps wonder how extensive those forces would be; is it not just the major planets that can afford "national" space militaries, and then with most of them remaining Empire-aligned for some time after Endor?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I too, could appreciate a relative "reinterpretation" of much of the early EU, especially with regard to grevious scale errors and uninspired or unrealistic plot devices. Except I don't know who I'd trust to do it right.

How about me?

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:First of all, as detailed, there are plenty of defections which continued to serve in the Alliance to Restore the Republic, the Alliance of Free Planets, and the New Republic.

Yes, but with a ban on former Imperials in the Service in effect, will they be accepted?

Was General Madine not accepted? Perhaps the ban was just a colloquial simplification, and former Imperials in the NRDF and Civil Service were simply subjected to ponderous delays in advancement, commissioning, discrimination (openly or unofficially) in pay, and ideological monitoring and such - ponderous to where they may have been mistaken for a ban. The Imperial Emancipations' main effect was permitting scores of former Imperials from running for office whether this was a blanket amnesty clearing a formal barring or simply the removal of excessive obstructions.

Darth Hoth wrote:

retired Republican officers,

Did the Republic have many educated officers? As I imagined it, ret-conned as per the post-prequel canon, their military was basically the clones. Or am I missing something?

All of the Empire's officers came from somewhere. At the end of ROTS there are Moffs and bridge pit crew; we observe in comics Captain Pelleaon aboard an Acclamator, we know Jerjerrod, Screed, and Dodonna served as officers in the war. Screed served in some function prior to the war - the Republican Guard or Judicials served as a quasi-military or paramilitary force.

Darth Hoth wrote:

colonial and paramilitary officers, and the officer corps of collaborative member states.

Such as Rogue Squadron's Ardele from the Commenor Militia? All right, that too makes sense. Although one would perhaps wonder how extensive those forces would be; is it not just the major planets that can afford "national" space militaries, and then with most of them remaining Empire-aligned for some time after Endor?

We certainly know that Alderaan had "defenses equal to any in the Empire" and HAD had sufficient armaments that they were secreted away. We know Corellia definitely had armed forces - what of Rendili's homeworld forces in "Dreadnaughts of Rendili", and if the Supreme Chancellor signed a law subordinating all member states' armed forces to Republic command, they must have existed and been substantial. What of Kuat's navy? The other "big ship" navies alluded to in AOTC and ROTS ICS? Calamari apparently had a navy, and we know from Grevious comics and elsewhere that it did not just "appear"; they'd had it for awhile (again a better explanation for their cruisers than luxury liner refits).

All of the Empire's officers came from somewhere. At the end of ROTS there are Moffs and bridge pit crew; we observe in comics Captain Pelleaon aboard an Acclamator, we know Jerjerrod, Screed, and Dodonna served as officers in the war. Screed served in some function prior to the war - the Republican Guard or Judicials served as a quasi-military or paramilitary force.

RotS novel also had Needa as a Lt. on a Carrack cruiser at the battle of Coruscant. Human/sentient officers were common durring the Clone War even if gunners and pilots and soldiers were clones.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Was General Madine not accepted? Perhaps the ban was just a colloquial simplification, and former Imperials in the NRDF and Civil Service were simply subjected to ponderous delays in advancement, commissioning, discrimination (openly or unofficially) in pay, and ideological monitoring and such - ponderous to where they may have been mistaken for a ban. The Imperial Emancipations' main effect was permitting scores of former Imperials from running for office whether this was a blanket amnesty clearing a formal barring or simply the removal of excessive obstructions.

That makes more sense than most other models I have heard of, considering the quite large numbers of defectors that we do know of who obtained military commands or other such positions in the Alliance.

Another explanation could perhaps be that the ban (or whatever it constituted) was levied only after the New Republic's establishment, thus exempting the "Old Comrades" and not hindering the Alliance in its most dire straits.

All of the Empire's officers came from somewhere. At the end of ROTS there are Moffs and bridge pit crew; we observe in comics Captain Pelleaon aboard an Acclamator, we know Jerjerrod, Screed, and Dodonna served as officers in the war. Screed served in some function prior to the war - the Republican Guard or Judicials served as a quasi-military or paramilitary force.

Now that I think about it, I do recall some RotS sourcebook mentioning that the Republic built academies and accepted officer candidates late in the Clone Wars in order to replace heavy Clone losses. (I think it was the Visual Dictionary, though I shall not swear upon it.) Still, would not most of them not be in service till the Imperial era had already begun? Older officers pose a conundrum; were they common, or rare exceptions, merely part of the Republic's very limited pre-war military assets?

We certainly know that Alderaan had "defenses equal to any in the Empire" and HAD had sufficient armaments that they were secreted away. We know Corellia definitely had armed forces - what of Rendili's homeworld forces in "Dreadnaughts of Rendili", and if the Supreme Chancellor signed a law subordinating all member states' armed forces to Republic command, they must have existed and been substantial. What of Kuat's navy? The other "big ship" navies alluded to in AOTC and ROTS ICS? Calamari apparently had a navy, and we know from Grevious comics and elsewhere that it did not just "appear"; they'd had it for awhile (again a better explanation for their cruisers than luxury liner refits).

I do not doubt their existence, I am merely inquiring as to how large and widespread they would be. To me, it has always appeared as though it is only the major worlds that can afford navies of their own, worlds such as Kuat or perhaps Alderaan, while smaller polities would have to make do with battle stations or fighter wings, or in some cases without space capability at all, except for atmospheric or ground-based defences. There are several Expanded Universe indicators for this, and you could perhaps argue that Naboo is an example of this in the films.

What do the Saxton books say? Regrettably, I still do not have them available.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: He still previous had been able, and having him alive and around and not lending his CLEAR expertise to Luke and helping Obi-Wan and Yoda seems forced.

I don't really disagree with you there. It could be made to work if it was handled properly, but even then it would seem a little bit forced. I'd much rather avoid it entirely. Windu's dead.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, it'll be quite common. Madine, Crane, Dodonna, Rieckan, etc. All of these flag/general officers formally served in the Republic or Empire (you're also neglected retired Republican officers, or those encouraged - or forced - to retire because they weren't Palpatinists). How about Ackbar? Member states' militaries and colonial forces are also sources of veterans and officers. Where do you think the Confederacy got its officers? The NRDF is going to require a professional officer corps, and tapping Han to command Star Destroyers is neither going to work nor support espirit'd'corps.

The former Imperials that you mention all defected prior to Endor, when it looked like taking on the Empire was suicide. Clearly they joined the Rebellion because they believed strongly in its ideals, to the point of being willing to throw away their lives with a very slim chance of success. Any defectors after Endor may feel the same way, but they could also just be changing sides because now they think the Empire is ultimately going to lose. Because of that doubt, defectors after Endor wouldn't be trusted as fully as defectors prior to Endor (in general anyway, there will be exceptions), and won't be promoted as highly. Heck, there was a Grand Admiral who defected (can't remember his name), and he offered to serve the NR, and they turned him down for that precise reason.

The other sources of trained officers that you mention are viable, but would not provide sufficient numbers to meet the demand. Officers who retired or were forced out of Imperial service for political reasons? Great, but how many of them are just floating around? Retired officers may be too old for active service (although they would be very useful behind a desk). Those that were forced out of Imperial service for political reasons were often imprisoned or simply made to disappear. Any that can be found would be welcome additions to the burgeoning NR navy, but odds are the NR wouldn't be able to track down nearly enough of them.

As far as member states being a source of officers, of course they are, but those officers will generally be needed for the defense of those member states! They can't just be pulled away to command task forces - at least not without replacing them with other officers (which doesn't do much to solve the problem).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Finagle wrote:In this environment, the NR would be promoting a lot of officers from within to whatever high level posts are open (especially when those officers are well-known heroes), regardless of whether they've really got the experience needed. That's the reality of an insurgent group becoming a legitimate military.

No, it really isn't, if you look at history and common sense. Functionality is more important than propoganda.

Umm, no. If you don't understand that common sense almost always takes a back seat to politics, then you're hopelessly naive, and don't understand human nature. Functionality should be more important than propoganda, but depending on the situation, that is frequently not the case.

I actually studied history in University (it's what I got my degree in, even though my current career has absolutely nothing to do with it), and I can give you many examples of people being entrusted with vital jobs that they really weren't qualified for, purely for political reasons. In some cases they did surprisingly well. In some cases they essentially just served as figureheads, keeping their supporters happy. In other cases they failed miserably.

Off the top of my head, there's Jean Francois Carteaux, who was a painter with absolutely no military experience. He was, however, loyal to the ideals of the French Revolution, so he was given the rank of general (or maybe brigadeer general - I don't recall), and given command of the Armee des Alpes. He ended up being Napolean Bonaparte's CO, before being relieved of command due to incompetance. Incidentally, based on his experience Solo would be much more qualified to be a naval command officer than Carteaux was to be a general. There are plenty of other examples throughout history - I can dig some up if you're really interested.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: I'm sorry, but if there is a relevent authority on how a professional naval service should operate, those currently serving in one are relevent authorities. Don't bullshit me.

Then don't bullshit me either. What you said is the equivalent of me saying "but my physics professor says that's impossible." Unless you back it up with something concrete, it's a meaningless appeal to authority. If you back it up with examples, then it has meaning. Also, like I said, the operation of an insurgent group in the process of becoming a conventional military is neccessarily different from the operation of an established military. If you can't understand that, then you need to do a little research on military history.

Darth Hoth wrote:Another explanation could perhaps be that the ban (or whatever it constituted) was levied only after the New Republic's establishment, thus exempting the "Old Comrades" and not hindering the Alliance in its most dire straits.

Based on the evidence from the EU, I think this explanation to be highly likely. As far as I can recall, every Imperial defector that we've ever seen in a significant position of authority was somebody who defected during the Rebel Alliance days. I don't doubt that the NR continued to accept Imperial defectors, but it seems likely that they wouldn't be as fully trusted, and that they wouldn't be promoted as easily - they would have to prove themselves somehow. Of course, that's just my opinion based on circumstantial evidence.

*edited due to screwing up the quote formatting

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Wookieepedia, I know, but whatever wrote:

Uh, and you're the one arguing about semantics jousting? So somewhere after the Daley novels, which show Solo was 100% against slavery of any kind, (Han Solo's Revenge) and the Crispin novels where she was specifically told she couldn't detail Solo and Chewbacca's first meeting, or the details of his discharge, the link you provided was wedged in from somewhere. At the most EXTREME definition, then yes, Solo was "involved in slaving". By...refusing to participate.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mike says it better than I ever could:

Boy, if I had a dime for everytime someone rolls out, "Well, Mike said..." That's not my interpretation of the scene. It's quite clear to me that the Yoda of the Sith was not cowed by Windu.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Who gives a shit about semantics? Obi-Wan have considered himself no longer formally a Jedi, Yoda obviously did. The SUBSTANCE is both were still in cahoots, still looking to train Jedi apprentices (especially guarding and developing the talent of the Skywalker twins), and still looking to undermine and overthrow the Sith. What I want to know is the one Jedi who was able to handle Palpatine mano e mano, whether or not he continues to call himself a Jedi or some bullshit, choose to sit everything out and hide even from his comrades. You offered some "pinging" bullshit you made up but you won't even try to defend that because you know its crap.

Yeah, it's complete crap, yet you give a free pass to Yoda and Obi-Wan. You're fucking Clownshoes, IP.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You still haven't offered a shred of evidence why this is necessary or desirable for Luke's reconstruction of the Jedi Order. If he's so burned out he was useless for the OT period, why would he be available later? It just makes no fucking sense.

How do you expect me to provide "evidence" OF MY INTERPRETATION OF HOW THE EU SHOULD GO, YOU FUCKING NITWIT? It's my speculation, get it? The general idea of this whole topic? AGAIN, how am I sooooooo far off the mark? We either have Luke look for tiny pieces of the OJO in all the nooks and crannies for 20+ years as he has done in the current EU, which you apparently favor, or we have Windu come in and explain to him that he's going about it all wrong. To try to make build NJO off the exact model of the OJO leads to the same dead end that doomed the OJO. Something Obi-Wan and Yoda realized, yet Luke, (in the curent EU) never seems to have picked up on.

So you're ok with fragmented memories from Clone Wars droids, holocrons that basically bring back dead Jedi anyway, and Force users who comletely bamboozle Luke with "White Current" crap? Again, how am I so far off the mark bringing back one of the main Jedis who could steer Luke to make a better NJO, not a copy of the OJO? Would it be ok with you if Luke found Mace Windu's holocron diary or something? I supposed you'd object to even Force ghosts that actually had a purpose too, eh? Don't wanna bring back dead Jedi! Dat's not in da moovieeez!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I guess you're such a "ooh its kewl it was in the films" fan that you think the Empire is not the Empire unless it builds a Death Star?

I guess you're such a contrarian that you find it impossible for the Empire to improve on something they've already built twice, because "oh, that's wank!!" No, if THE EMPIRE thought the original Death Star would be able to be sent to all corners of the galaxy to cement their rule, it is NOT out of the question that a Death Star could EASILY hold back the NR from an even LESSER region of space.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Uh, all fighter pilots are officers, Poe. Luke necessarily was commissioned to serve in Yavin. So Luke was working his way up over three years consistently at a single job. No evidence Chewie was an officer (a civilian first mate is not equivalent to a fighter pilot). And those three years Han spent have commitment issues with the Rebellion and doing odd jobs and avoiding Jabba.

I love how you completely dismiss the fact that, once again, I wasn't talking about Chewie moving in to the position the day after The Battle Of Endor. Keep on truckin'.

Lord Poe wrote:Uh, and you're the one arguing about semantics jousting? So somewhere after the Daley novels, which show Solo was 100% against slavery of any kind, (Han Solo's Revenge) and the Crispin novels where she was specifically told she couldn't detail Solo and Chewbacca's first meeting, or the details of his discharge, the link you provided was wedged in from somewhere. At the most EXTREME definition, then yes, Solo was "involved in slaving". By...refusing to participate.

Jesus, I was not making a moral judgment. My only point about Han was that as an officer he was assigned to work in slaving (obviously I know and acknowledge he was a good guy and not okay with that) - I'm not trying to shit on Han, I'm saying he wasn't on track to command starships if he was getting jobs like that. Jesus.

Lord Poe wrote:Boy, if I had a dime for everytime someone rolls out, "Well, Mike said..." That's not my interpretation of the scene. It's quite clear to me that the Yoda of the Sith was not cowed by Windu.

Say-so does not qualify as an argument with support. The film and secondary sources do not support this argument. You need a good reason to defy the face-value presentation: Mace beat Palpatine, but he was fighting the wrong battle and so died. You have to come up with why a counterintuitive and "hidden motive" explanation like "Palpatine was holding back" is supported by the evidence.

Lord Poe wrote:Yeah, it's complete crap, yet you give a free pass to Yoda and Obi-Wan. You're fucking Clownshoes, IP.

I don't know, maybe I consider the fact that Lucas had specific characters die and others live to me for a fucking reason. Lucas did NOT choose for Windu to return - that IS the present state of the canon. A counterintuitive explanation must be justified. Say-so does not cut it.

I can't believe you're so pathetically incapable of genuine argument.

Lord Poe wrote:How do you expect me to provide "evidence" OF MY INTERPRETATION OF HOW THE EU SHOULD GO, YOU FUCKING NITWIT? It's my speculation, get it? The general idea of this whole topic? AGAIN, how am I sooooooo far off the mark? We either have Luke look for tiny pieces of the OJO in all the nooks and crannies for 20+ years as he has done in the current EU, which you apparently favor, or we have Windu come in and explain to him that he's going about it all wrong. To try to make build NJO off the exact model of the OJO leads to the same dead end that doomed the OJO. Something Obi-Wan and Yoda realized, yet Luke, (in the curent EU) never seems to have picked up on.

This is like saying that Stalin's purges might as well not have happened because a lot of those important people killed wrote stuff or left work behind so we did not really lose it. Do you see holocrons substituting for Masters in the films? No? Well then I imagine they, believe it or not, are not substitutes.

Lord Poe wrote:So you're ok with fragmented memories from Clone Wars droids, holocrons that basically bring back dead Jedi anyway, and Force users who comletely bamboozle Luke with "White Current" crap? Again, how am I so far off the mark bringing back one of the main Jedis who could steer Luke to make a better NJO, not a copy of the OJO? Would it be ok with you if Luke found Mace Windu's holocron diary or something? I supposed you'd object to even Force ghosts that actually had a purpose too, eh? Don't wanna bring back dead Jedi! Dat's not in da moovieeez!

I don't know, maybe I consider the content of the films as presented to be that way for a reason. Certainly more straightforward and reasonable than you saying that it really does not matter.

Lord Poe wrote:I guess you're such a contrarian that you find it impossible for the Empire to improve on something they've already built twice, because "oh, that's wank!!" No, if THE EMPIRE thought the original Death Star would be able to be sent to all corners of the galaxy to cement their rule, it is NOT out of the question that a Death Star could EASILY hold back the NR from an even LESSER region of space.

You assert repeatedly on your own authority that the Death Star is the most efficient use of it's logistical and productive cost in holding territory and fighting fleets. Justify this premise, as opposed to the idea that maybe its designed for dealing with a particular niche.

Lord Poe wrote:I love how you completely dismiss the fact that, once again, I wasn't talking about Chewie moving in to the position the day after The Battle Of Endor. Keep on truckin'.

Pathetic. You just keep dropping or ignoring swathes of arguments and statements which you cannot respond to and repeating your claims. Even a couple years is a split second for a fucking noncomm to become a flag officer, you idiot.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I too, could appreciate a relative "reinterpretation" of much of the early EU, especially with regard to grevious scale errors and uninspired or unrealistic plot devices. Except I don't know who I'd trust to do it right.

I'm already working on it, just from a different point of view

If I had a say in what to include in the new & improved Expanded Universe, I'd make sure that characters who died in the movies stayed dead. No clones, no long lost twins, none of that bullshit. Palpatine, Anakin, Mace Windu, Boba Fett, Jabba and Gold Leader, like Generalissimo Francisco Franco, will all still be dead. Bringing back dead characters as anything other than zombies or ghosts sucks harder than Penny Flame.