Is it SDN's fault that you're aggressive or argumentative

[Ar-Adunakhor]

Saw that one coming a mile away.

I think she'd like for the debate to be more... academic perhaps? The problem is, as I tried to express earlier, part of the history of this place. Perhaps less so about the differences between hard science debates and liberal arts, but more to do with the horde of idiots it has had to deal with. Unlike in a an certain settings where everyone is reasonably intelligent and usually honest, in an internet forum all sorts of people can, and have, participated.

I am unsure about this part. Without a doubt the open registration nature of the forums has led to the need of "crowd control" in the heavy debate threads, but what I seem to get out of her general statement was that everyone already had a side before debating and were therefore not looking at the whole picture. Interestingly, if we were to not have any side and just discussed the ideas as she seems to want... well, there wouldn't be any debates. Debates have two (or more) sides which contest points in an effort to determine who has the better supported position. If the board were to have a big hug-a-thon every thread then we would all be discussing things forever and never even progressing towards resolving them. "I see your point about the Earth being flat but it just doesn't convince me, so we'll have to agree to disagree." just does not cut it. You have to discard the bad ideas and refine the correct ones if you want to build upon the foundation you are making. This being the internet, sometimes that means calling someone a fucking idiot and flaming them.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) what Surlethe was trying to imply is that the debates here are in some ways like scientific peer review. Eventually all the dross gets burned away by the flamethrowers and we are left with the ideas that are tempered by that heat. Sure we'll still get the occasonal creationist or whatnot, but the atmosphere of debate encouraged here allows us to slowly move towards the most supported positions. How would, "Everyone's view is welcome, let's discuss it and not stomp on anyone's toes when they don't admit it's less supported." be anywhere close to the same level of review and refinement that the "harsh" debate methods already in place are?

I also think it ties in to the fact that discussing something is not on the same level of rigour as reviewing it for correctness. If memory serves, this train has been wrecked before. Several times.

[Pablo Sanchez]

What I'm saying is that the atmosphere is not cohesive to actual intellectual development, so it's not worthwhile to spend my time here.

Looking for intellectual development on the internet is like looking for gold bricks in a candy shop. Not only are you not going to find any gold bricks, but you're going to miss all the candy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think this board encourages a very Ancient Greek perspective on things, which is that it's more important to "win" than to actually be right.

You're totally right. We've failed to produce Superior Humans who have overcome their instincts and eliminated their competitive male nature. I feel ashamed.

The problem is that some people who're homebodies or have no friends or the like see SDN as their sole intellectual social outlet, and their sole means to express ideas. So to be attacked or to not be "right" is a potential loss of personal status. If you treat SDN as some place fun to check some articles, talk about thing without wading through the usual density of morons, and occasionally kick some ass because you have a job, or go to school, have a girlfriend, etc. - you have no problem. I myself have noticed a tempering as I grew older and in addition to being more mature in mundane terms, just had more shit to do and more opportunity to talk about shit I cared about in constructive terms with real people. I think a lot of people here do not qualify for that though. That, and a holdover from ASVS culture. Of course, that was because it was arguing with teenage Trekkie idiots who used Google in place of an education and thinks that gives them to right to talk shit to an engineer. It was context appropriate. Here several intelligent people may debate a real world subject of genuine ambiguity, but the culture treats it similarly with many people.

What I'm saying is that the atmosphere is not cohesive to actual intellectual development, so it's not worthwhile to spend my time here.

Go to college. Take good classes. Talk to your professors. Give a shit. Get involved. That's what that is for. The internet and Mike's proverbial backyard isn't it.

[Connor MacLeod]

I've spent a fair bit of time over on places like SB and such where you're "forced" to be more polite towards people than you are here. So I have developed (out of necessity) an ability to be more polite than alot of folk warrant.

In my time on SD.net I have also learned that this is not a place where you want to be "social" or to neccesarily "make friends". It's also not a place that you should expect ot be non-judgemental. If you say something that someone else will perceive as stupid, offensive, or whatever, then you'll get called on it, mocked, criticized, or whatnot.

Again, if you don't like it, you either learn to keep those opinions to yourself or leave.

That is not to say we don't frown on certain forms of harshness, or we're incapable of being supportive or even polite/kind/sympathetic (stofsk comes to mind.). IT's just not something you're automatically entitled to just because something bad has happened. It's a case by case basis. I've always felt the board is an intellectually Darwiniam place.

You learn and adapt, or you won't last long here. That's all there is.

[ray245]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.

I prefer a discussion over a debate that times, so when I was 'forced' to debate, I rather pass it over.


Personally, this site is considered to be 'extremist' in a way. The way most people attack and flame other's post, people feel pissed rather than accept your views.

SD.net is extreme in a star wars and scientific way. I'm not saying that having a strong view on science is bad by the way. While there is plenty of trekkies and religious people who is considered extremist, this site seems to be the polar opposite.

By being too extreme or 'fierce' in debate, you can drag other 'extremist' to your side. But for 'moderates', this isn't a site for the ‘moderates’.

Maybe it was because of a habit of debating against those other extremist. Pressure from another group will force people to fight even harder at times.

As a former member put it, Alyeska I think, Darth Wong is right for most of the times, but he is a asshole at times or something. Perhaps it may be easier for people to accept other's view IF people can stop putting words like fucker, asshole or other taunts.

But then again, this site is a property of Mike, so it will be him who set the rules.


Although pick, sad to see another more 'liberal arts' person go.

[General Zod]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.
>snip<

Main Entry: 1de·bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

Pay attention to that last definition there. Since everyone has to follow board rules, especially when it comes to making absurd claims, it's pretty obvious that any discussion is going to be regulated to some degree.

[Stark]

There's a difference between sore-losers and net-nanny people leaving the board and issues like 'it brings out my compeditive streak'. It's not surprising Ray hates it here, as almost everything he says is stupid. Howedar and Pick are rarely in this situation, so it's clearly distinct.

I think IP is echoing my thoughts about some personalities being less compatible with the SDN schtick without going gaga and becoming so 'compeditive' that it drowns out discussion.

[ray245]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.
>snip<

Main Entry: 1de·bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

Pay attention to that last definition there. Since everyone has to follow board rules, especially when it comes to making absurd claims, it's pretty obvious that any discussion is going to be regulated to some degree.

I know that damn well. It's mike's site not a public one. I will follow his rules, but that does not mean I would AGREE with the rules.

That's two different things. Following and agreeing with the rules.

[ray245]

There's a difference between sore-losers and net-nanny people leaving the board and issues like 'it brings out my compeditive streak'. It's not surprising Ray hates it here, as almost everything he says is stupid. Howedar and Pick are rarely in this situation, so it's clearly distinct.

I think IP is echoing my thoughts about some personalities being less compatible with the SDN schtick without going gaga.

Oh come on stark...just because I may be wrong of 90% of the time does not mean I'm wrong for all the time...

Perception.

[DPDarkPrimus]

SDnet has made me so frank I have to think before I speak.

No, I'm Frank.

I shall end you.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.

I prefer a discussion over a debate that times, so when I was 'forced' to debate, I rather pass it over.


Personally, this site is considered to be 'extremist' in a way. The way most people attack and flame other's post, people feel pissed rather than accept your views.

SD.net is extreme in a star wars and scientific way. I'm not saying that having a strong view on science is bad by the way. While there is plenty of trekkies and religious people who is considered extremist, this site seems to be the polar opposite.

By being too extreme or 'fierce' in debate, you can drag other 'extremist' to your side. But for 'moderates', this isn't a site for the ‘moderates’.

Maybe it was because of a habit of debating against those other extremist. Pressure from another group will force people to fight even harder at times.

As a former member put it, Alyeska I think, Darth Wong is right for most of the times, but he is a asshole at times or something. Perhaps it may be easier for people to accept other's view IF people can stop putting words like fucker, asshole or other taunts.

But then again, this site is a property of Mike, so it will be him who set the rules.


Although pick, sad to see another more 'liberal arts' person go.

You know, if you actually bothered to visit the more political Singaporean forums, there are times where I wished I had an axe to inject logic directly into some people's heads especially with all the rampant "stick your head into the ground" cowardice, and endless list of apologists doling out the usual laundry list of apologies.

[ray245]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.

I prefer a discussion over a debate that times, so when I was 'forced' to debate, I rather pass it over.


Personally, this site is considered to be 'extremist' in a way. The way most people attack and flame other's post, people feel pissed rather than accept your views.

SD.net is extreme in a star wars and scientific way. I'm not saying that having a strong view on science is bad by the way. While there is plenty of trekkies and religious people who is considered extremist, this site seems to be the polar opposite.

By being too extreme or 'fierce' in debate, you can drag other 'extremist' to your side. But for 'moderates', this isn't a site for the ‘moderates’.

Maybe it was because of a habit of debating against those other extremist. Pressure from another group will force people to fight even harder at times.

As a former member put it, Alyeska I think, Darth Wong is right for most of the times, but he is a asshole at times or something. Perhaps it may be easier for people to accept other's view IF people can stop putting words like fucker, asshole or other taunts.

But then again, this site is a property of Mike, so it will be him who set the rules.


Although pick, sad to see another more 'liberal arts' person go.

You know, if you actually bothered to visit the more political Singaporean forums, there are times where I wished I had an axe to inject logic directly into some people's heads especially with all the rampant "stick your head into the ground" cowardice, and endless list of apologists doling out the usual laundry list of apologies.

You mean sgforums?

[Stark]

Oh come on stark...just because I may be wrong of 90% of the time does not mean I'm wrong for all the time...

Perception.

Strawman, red herring, meaningless. Please respond to posts, and not what you imagine people are saying. To help you out, I clearly said 'almost everything he says is stupid'. I didn't mention right or wrong, and I never said you were always wrong. You're either so stupid you imagined it or you're so defensive you invented it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You mean sgforums?

That and a few others.

The logical fallacy ridden arguments by half the posters make me not just squirm, but hurt my head. I have since quit that forum because I couldn't tolerate the ridiculously small world view of the average Singaporean and the damnable arrogance that comes along with it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.

I prefer a discussion over a debate that times, so when I was 'forced' to debate, I rather pass it over.

Problem is, though, is that Sd.net is basically a debate forum. I've never seen it as otherwise. It's not a very "social" place, and "discussion" implies something of a more social-type atmosphere. As said, if you want a discussion, there are other places you can go to find that.

Personally, this site is considered to be 'extremist' in a way. The way most people attack and flame other's post, people feel pissed rather than accept your views.

This smells vaguely like style over substance. Who considers it "extremist"?

Moreover, if someone is honestly interested in being persuaded, or open to it, they will focus on the substance of the debate and ignore the manner in which its phrased (And address that.) If they can't, then they aren't really approaching the debate logically and you can't persuade anyone.

SD.net is extreme in a star wars and scientific way. I'm not saying that having a strong view on science is bad by the way. While there is plenty of trekkies and religious people who is considered extremist, this site seems to be the polar opposite.

what the hell is "scientific extremism?" That sounds like some sort of catchphrase a creationist would employ. Are you suggesting science and logic have inherent "agendas"?

By being too extreme or 'fierce' in debate, you can drag other 'extremist' to your side. But for 'moderates', this isn't a site for the ‘moderates’.

Er, now you make it sound as if logic and science-oriented debates should be handled like politics. This is as annoying as the "court-room" approach to debating.

How can something involving "facts" and "logic" and "laws" be judged "extreme" or "moderate", pray tell? Science and logic are far more straightforward than that.

Maybe it was because of a habit of debating against those other extremist. Pressure from another group will force people to fight even harder at times.

Only if there's ego or emotion involved. And if there are, then it's not really a logical or scientific discussion.

[ray245]

You mean sgforums?

That and a few others.

The logical fallacy ridden arguments by half the posters make me not just squirm, but hurt my head. I have since quit that forum because I couldn't tolerate the ridiculously small world view of the average Singaporean and the damnable arrogance that comes along with it.

The problem is that those sites are good to certain limits but only one of the few sites that can really allows a singaporean to express their views.

For me, the only section I would go to on those sites will be namely games, movies and their military nuts section. Where there is well...less debates or etc.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The problem is that those sites are good to certain limits but only one of the few sites that can really allows a singaporean to express their views.

For me, the only section I would go to on those sites will be namely games, movies and their military nuts section. Where there is well...less debates or etc.

The military nuts aren't free from right wingers, Chinese/SAF/MAF wankers. It hurts my brain.

[Edi]

I've always been argumentative when confronted with stupid ideas or a refusal to accept reality. I don't like pulling punches, but I'm perfectly capable of having a discussion without flaming. SDnet is generally a debate forum, so most topics will be approached as if they were debates.

As far as intellectual development, I've found certain internet forums and SDnet in particular beneficial in that regard, since I've learned a lot about identifying bullshit and slicing it to ribbons. So I prefer this place over most others, one is not required to put up with stupidity.

I do spend time on some other forums, but it's remarkable how often simply calling an idea stupid immediately gets you labeled harsh or brutal even if somebody is using the fucking 2nd law of thermodynamics cretinist argument. Usually a such forums also have a surfeit of bullshit.

[mr friendly guy]

In answer to the OP, no.

I was already argumentative. SD.net just made me better and less tolerant of bullshit.

On the other topics discussed in this thread, I "hang out" here to get a bit of info on whats going on in the world, find out about good sci fi / fantasy stuff and a little bit of science. I generally post here as time permits, so there are periods where I am relatively inactive. Generally the reason is I have work and study and other personal commitments.

So generally I don't see SD.net as a "social board" per se, and if you look at it that way, it might not hurt so bad when you get flamed.

[Darth Wong]

I do spend time on some other forums, but it's remarkable how often simply calling an idea stupid immediately gets you labeled harsh or brutal even if somebody is using the fucking 2nd law of thermodynamics cretinist argument. Usually a such forums also have a surfeit of bullshit.

Indeed, people always say that you should attack the idea and carefully avoid ever saying anything bad about the person. But in practice, if you attack peoples' ideas, they tend to take it personally anyway, so there is very little distinction. Anyone who wraps up too much of his personal ego and pride in being right (a characteristic which was hardly invented here) is going to respond to an attack on his ideas in much the same vein as he does to someone saying "you're an idiot".

[Lagmonster]

Not to say SDN hasn't helped me form opinions on certain things, but frankly, I learned how to create a logical argument in university, and I had the most exposure to exchanging ideas with other people in the actual workforce. SDN is a more concentrated depository of arguments; I suspect that if we had a forum consisting of posted chat logs, MSN conversations and transcripts from live meet-ups and our every-day encounters, we'd find that the ratio of aggressive argument to normal conversation we have wouldn't differ drastically from what it was before SDN.

[Surlethe]

Finally there are a few other people who dislike everything turning into a debate. Sometime, I just want a simple discussion.

I do believe I've asked you this before. What's the difference between a debate and a discussion? Lack of analysis? Lack of critical thought? What's the difference?

[Chardok]

To those who say SDN is not a very social place, I would argue that it actually IS a social place. a VERY social place in fact. At least, for those who adapt or naturally gravitate to this kind of environment. I mean, it's sort of like a bar. (In my mind SDN has always been a bar) a place where one can discuss football at one table, then move over to the stupid people in the corner and babble about inane bullshit, then head over to the table where the guys are hunched over, studying maps of some world that doesn't exist, etc. etc. etc. and every sub-group is accepting of you. Just don't go over acting like you know everything or blasting their choice of tables simply because you don't *like* their table.

In fact, I've found that when I have a question, even in the middle of a raging flamefest, I can ask, get a civil answer, and then continue right on flaming. It's only when you burst in purporting to be an expert or holding on to completely irrational and illogical mindsets that you get torn a new one, ESPESCIALLY...(oh my god, I can't remember how to spell especially... No coffee yet...sheesh...damnable addiction) when you try to force said mindset upon others without backing it up with substantive, quantifiable proof.

Anyhoo, I like it here. And I'm staying, so blow me.

[Lord Pounder]

From my end SDN has helped me in debating, which given my very active involvment in Irish Politics is a very good thing. Pre-SDN I might have been a bit more willing to accept a lit of bullshit as a good arguement simply because of style over substance. Sdnet taught me to pick at that mountain of crap and look a little deeper. Ofcourse SDNet has also had the negative impact in that I now curse every other word, apparently calling a Sinn Fein MLA a worthless palm fucker is frowned upon in the hallowed grounds of the Northern Irish political arena. Oops

[Faqa]

(Boy, did I miss a big thread while I was at Icon....)

Look, I'm not a serious debater at all. I haven't been in that many, and when I see a big one brewing in a thread here, I tend to read around it because it degenerates into a bunch of line-by-line yelling I have no patience to follow.

Nontheless, I value the board culture here, for the very simple reason that I value honest, intelligent debate. The mod staff here insures that.

That simple.

I have been called a moron several times here. It's not really that hard to see past to the correction beneath. Grow some maturity and take your lumps and all that jazz.

In other words, this place can educate those who truly wish education rather than validation. Which may not be the attitude that changes the world, but it is surely refreshing in the context of an internet forum.

Plus, we can swear freely. That's also cool....