How do Trekkies envision the defeat of the Empire?

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2007-10-03 01:28am

As one above said, I think the reason the Empire's military is so 'small' is for training reasons. It takes time to train up a compitent crew, years in some cases. Even if the training is directly implanted into a clone's brain it still does not equate to practical aplication.

A good example of this is someone fresh out of college. They may understand the concepts but the actual application thereof they are unable to accomplish on the outset. I have seen this many times, specifically with a butter bar fresh from OCS. Unless they had practical experience before most of them prove to be complete idiots, for the simple reason "by the book" does not always work.

For the military, adaptability in the ever changing chaos of battle is paramount. Many do not realize this right away. Remember, "the best layed plans go to shit when the first rounds go down range." Also Murphy's law comes into play. "What can go wrong, will."

As such, I think that if the Empire were to start constricption it would be more like the Red Army of WWII were they placed the guns at the soldiers backs so they would advance in the face of the enemy.

The Emporer was not stupid, a volunteer force is the best way to have a quality military force, conscription is the best way to have a quantity military force.

As such, it strikes me that the Empires numbers are low when it comes to the military. However, they are highly trained, unlike the Trek military which puts the book knowledge on the line without the practical experience of veterans to guide them. The Trek communist state is the worst sort of military in that department, relying on book knowledge that they have highly purged of anything they deem to be against their 'superior' value system.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-10-03 01:47am

Ghost Rider wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Actually, no. There were hints that the Emperor might have known of the Yuuzhan Vong threat. I forgot where that was mentioned though.
Nom Anor makes mention of it many many times. Basically the reason he was glad for the NR coming into being was that they were weaker and did not have as great a military.

I remember reading somewhere that the Emperor often cited the existence of extragalactic invaders as a justification for the huge military.

And there was this Zonoma Sekot incident and a few small skirmishes with the Chiss, which undoubtedly reached Palpatine's ears.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2007-10-03 06:30am

The novel Outbound Flight makes it clear, that Darth Sidious knew about the Yuuzhan Vong and according to the ROTS:ICS the Imperial Navy justified its rapid expansion even after the clone-war with "barbarian invaders from outside the galaxy" among other things.

Concerning the size of the Imperial Forces could it be, that the number seems to be so small, because the emperor/empire wants people with a special mind-set? You know, the kind of guy who wouldn't hesitate a second to execute a BaseDeltaZero when told to do so? Might explain the many maniacs and the lot of warlordism we see in the EU.

bz249 · Post by **bz249** » 2007-10-03 06:33am

Couldn't be some kind of monetary restraints in the system? Since there are hell lot of planets with their own expensive defense forces, it seems possible to me, that most of the cash stays at the planets and only a minor fraction goes directly to the central Imperial budget (like the 1 percent rule for the European Union). Thus the Empire itself have orders of magnitude less resources (cash, manpower...etc) than expected (and most of these resources are commited to the administrative branch). At least in normal, peacetime conditions... However wartime, especially total war is a different thing...

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-10-03 07:36am

bz249 wrote:Since there are hell lot of planets with their own expensive defense forces, it seems possible to me, that most of the cash stays at the planets and only a minor fraction goes directly to the central Imperial budget (like the 1 percent rule for the European Union).

You saw the Naboo Security Forces, yes? That seems to be standard for planetary defense forces, little more than glorified police officers and customs agents, maybe venturing into Coast Guard. Not really that expensive.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-10-03 07:38am

Naboo Security Forces are not really representative of other planetary armies. Naboo didn't even have a planetary shield, or any defences. The TradeFed troopships landed completely unopposed.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-10-03 08:01am

PeZook wrote:Naboo Security Forces are not really representative of other planetary armies. Naboo didn't even have a planetary shield, or any defences. The TradeFed troopships landed completely unopposed.

Conceded, however I still dispute that the planetary defenses costed much, since the largest ship in the Royal Alderaan Civil Fleet is a Frigate.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-10-03 08:07am

General Schatten wrote: Conceded, however I still dispute that the planetary defenses costed much, since the largest ship in the Royal Alderaan Civil Fleet is a Frigate.

The answer to this question is impossible, since all we have is baseless speculation. There is no evidence suggesting how much individual core worlds may spend on their own defence.

The lack of ships in the civil fleet is no real indication, since Alderaan may just as well have spent the money on sophisticated planet-based defences. It's not like they had any need to project power very far, so a bunch of planetary turbolasers would seem a better investment.

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-10-03 08:52am

General Schatten wrote:
PeZook wrote:Naboo Security Forces are not really representative of other planetary armies. Naboo didn't even have a planetary shield, or any defences. The TradeFed troopships landed completely unopposed.
Conceded, however I still dispute that the planetary defenses costed much, since the largest ship in the Royal Alderaan Civil Fleet is a Frigate.

Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic? They had a planetary shield, but that was well after the birth of the Empire. They were probably paranoid.

bz249 · Post by **bz249** » 2007-10-03 08:55am

General Schatten wrote:
PeZook wrote:Naboo Security Forces are not really representative of other planetary armies. Naboo didn't even have a planetary shield, or any defences. The TradeFed troopships landed completely unopposed.
Conceded, however I still dispute that the planetary defenses costed much, since the largest ship in the Royal Alderaan Civil Fleet is a Frigate.

Sure, but they have a cutting edge planetary shield... however what others spent on defenses they might spend on social program or whatever, I don't know. I am just assuming that most of the money stayed on planets, so the Imperial budget may be a relatively small compared to the grand total of planetary budgets...

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-10-03 09:31am

Ryan Thunder wrote:Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic? They had a planetary shield, but that was well after the birth of the Empire. They were probably paranoid.

If by pacifistic you mean gunrunning for a known terrorist group, then sure.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-03 10:16am

Ryan Thunder wrote:Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic?

Perhaps, but that shouldn't stop the Alderaan government from installing some defensive weaponry in case those Rebel scum come knocking

.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2007-10-03 10:37am

Teleros wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic?
Perhaps, but that shouldn't stop the Alderaan government from installing some defensive weaponry in case those Rebel scum come knocking .

Too bad we never see if they had anything else, except the planetary shield.
(Which didn't help them much)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-03 11:21am

General Schatten wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic? They had a planetary shield, but that was well after the birth of the Empire. They were probably paranoid.
If by pacifistic you mean gunrunning for a known terrorist group, then sure.

It's all relative, isn't it? Relative to, say, the CSA, they were pacifist. And I wouldn't want to attack Kuat with anything less than a monster fleet.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2007-10-03 12:44pm

If I am remembering this right, I am probably not, but didnt Alderaan have an actual defensive fleet at one point. Something along the lines of 30 Dreadnaughts?

That along with an assortment of smaller vessels would make a good sized system defense fleet. Though a dreadnaught is not on the scale of an ISD they would be considered capital ships for the time period.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2007-10-03 01:45pm

Zwinmar wrote:If I am remembering this right, I am probably not, but didnt Alderaan have an actual defensive fleet at one point. Something along the lines of 30 Dreadnaughts?

That along with an assortment of smaller vessels would make a good sized system defense fleet. Though a dreadnaught is not on the scale of an ISD they would be considered capital ships for the time period.

Until George decides to ignore most of EU ships and create a venator star destroyer.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2007-10-03 01:52pm

DarthShady wrote:
Teleros wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Wasn't Alderaan supposed to be similarly pacifistic?
Perhaps, but that shouldn't stop the Alderaan government from installing some defensive weaponry in case those Rebel scum come knocking .
Too bad we never see if they had anything else, except the planetary shield.
(Which didn't help them much)

They had ordered KDY to build them a fleet of ships according to BHW.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2007-10-03 04:22pm

ray245 wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:If I am remembering this right, I am probably not, but didnt Alderaan have an actual defensive fleet at one point. Something along the lines of 30 Dreadnaughts?

That along with an assortment of smaller vessels would make a good sized system defense fleet. Though a dreadnaught is not on the scale of an ISD they would be considered capital ships for the time period.
Until George decides to ignore most of EU ships and create a venator star destroyer.

A "Star Destroyer" I might add that does NOT fill the roll of Anti-Cap shi, as the main share of its volumne is largely Hangers for fighters and landing craft. It has big guns, but by the numbers it is not a "Dedicated" anti cap ship.

Why Lucas with his endles funds and milliosn upon millions chpoose to creat a SINGLE Capital ship to seemingly wipe away all those of the EU Boggles the mind.

One must infer that there should be a dedicated warship along the lines of a Victory -SD or a similar ship.,

lord Martiya · Post by **lord Martiya** » 2007-10-03 05:50pm

In ROTS:ICS is said that in the end of Clone Wars was starting the production of Tector-class and Imperator-class. Probably the Venators are brainchildren of the Jedi: in the prequels they seem love battle with starfighters, and the Venators could be the fusion between their love for starfighters (or a need of starfighter carriers) and the need of something that could beat single-handly the Invisible Hand and other ships of that class.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2007-10-04 01:39pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
ray245 wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:If I am remembering this right, I am probably not, but didnt Alderaan have an actual defensive fleet at one point. Something along the lines of 30 Dreadnaughts?

That along with an assortment of smaller vessels would make a good sized system defense fleet. Though a dreadnaught is not on the scale of an ISD they would be considered capital ships for the time period.
Until George decides to ignore most of EU ships and create a venator star destroyer.
A "Star Destroyer" I might add that does NOT fill the roll of Anti-Cap shi, as the main share of its volumne is largely Hangers for fighters and landing craft. It has big guns, but by the numbers it is not a "Dedicated" anti cap ship.

Numbers compared to what?

The Venator is a combination of carrier and combat-warship and of comparable power to the Victory-Class.

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-13 08:09am

AirshipFanboy wrote:How do the people who take Star Trek's side in this debate envision the Federation defeating the Empire? What do they think a war between the Federation and the Empire would look like?

Simple answer. Use. Starfleet. Command. Federation.

:p

If this doesn't end the thread, it should.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2007-11-13 08:19am

THREAD NECROMANCY!

MJ12 Commando · Post by **MJ12 Commando** » 2007-11-13 08:23am

Tribun wrote:THREAD NECROMANCY!

...crap. I didn't look at the post date and assumed that if it was on the first page it'd be two weeks old, at max. :p

I forgot that this board had a bunch of stuff debated to death already.

Apologies.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2007-11-13 08:27am

At two weeks old, it'd still be thread necromancy.

Rickie · Post by **Rickie** » 2008-06-16 12:41pm

When I was ignorant of the incredible advantage the SW universe has in fire power I thought the key strengths of the Empire were size and speed. This would allow the ST universe to engage in hit and run attacks mixed with smaller, more venomous techs - transporters, Borg nanoprobes etc. It would be a tough fight but assuming the ST universe can strike without warning the fight would be a real one, rather then a reenactment of Germany's victory over Poland.

Knowing the vast difference in firepower though its a lot harder to say the Federation and other ST powers would have a shot in hell. An outright war would be a joke. ST does however have more deadly small techs, for instance none of the SW movies show them having the same achievements in medical or transporter/replicator tech. This would make, as someone else in the thread said, a terror war winnable, eventually. If the Feds contributed to the Alliance then I think it would have made the Alliance victory more rapid.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

How do Trekkies envision the defeat of the Empire?

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