DF: Palelabor 56k (Go Away- Restarted Game, New Thread!)

[Stark]

About the military, how does combat work? Will all dwarves arm themselves and fight, or is it just the ones tasked with 'fighting'? We need enough weapons and armour (not necessarily good) to equip our entire military. Stargliders ideas about rotating soldier duties is interesting, but I'm not sure what fighters 'do' to increase their skills.

[Ford Prefect]

Presumably, they train with each other, in the vain hope they don't accidentally screw up and slice off each others' heads.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Skills don't degrade if they're not used do they? Wouldn't it make sense to have two to four permanent soldiers and then rotate the peasants through weapons training in groups of two, so that if there is an invasion you have plenty of minimally-trained defenders?

I wish to volunteer to be a permanent defender, you don't want another 'mistake' now do you?

[Tasoth]

I say expand the fields. If we're doing bad on food, expanding the plots northward would give us more area to farm grain and therefore more to eat.

[Vain]

I'd like to throw my crown in the ring for dwarfhood. Profession is irrelevant, so make me whatever you like.

BTW, MRDOD, I'd like to say thanks for bringing this game to my attention. I've been playing it on my own, and it's hella awesome.

[rhoenix]

I admit to being curious about this game, as it looks fun.

More seriously, once mining and expansion slows, I'd like to have my namesake become a soldier, hopefully to become a Soldier.

[Alferd Packer]

I tried playing it when my Windows box still worked, and the learning curve is basically a cliff. I really want to play it, but I find myself stymied by, well, everything after you start the game.

[Eris]

Hahahahaha! I'm a swordsdwarf! I feel stalwart already.

And with that in mind, I think I'm going to start up the town's hawk lobby. We're in goblin country! A strong army is the only way to see dwarfish crafts remain in dwarfish hands. Our metal needs to go to our arms and armour before silly things like pots and forks. Armour in particular; being the only dwarf currently on the front lines is making me feel extremely aware of my own mortality.

I also move we give extra alcohol rations to those who risk life and limb in the defence of Palelabor. If I have to die I want to be blind drunk at the time, and then be remembered in feast and song for the rest of history.

And for all those speculating before me, this game is really fun. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I find it to be engaging and rather hilarious with some of the history, actions, and (especially) deaths you can get. Spanky going nuts is just the tip of the iceberg there. However, it's not a game you can just slide into.

MRDOD mentioned the Dwarf Fortress Wiki. Studying that is the only way you're going to get past year two without twenty runs through practice. Not a game for the faint of heart, but I'm really a fan of roguelikes and ASCII graphics, so I found the effort to be worth it. Besides: Dwarf fortress. Inherently cool.

[Duckie]

About the military, how does combat work? Will all dwarves arm themselves and fight, or is it just the ones tasked with 'fighting'? We need enough weapons and armour (not necessarily good) to equip our entire military. Stargliders ideas about rotating soldier duties is interesting, but I'm not sure what fighters 'do' to increase their skills.

Eris' proposal for extra alcohol rations is hereby vetoed. Alcohol is a fundamental dwarf right as guaranteed by the Constitution of Palelabor (as ratified in 1051 upon the day of founding, the text in entirety quoted here: "Let's get fucking smashed and dig up some stuff!"). I would also like to notify the esteemed Swordsdwarf that she has steel chain armour, which is by far better than the other soldiers wearing a mishmash of silk/cloth clothes and leather armour.

Tasoth and Stark's proposal for Farm Expansion for food and alcohol is dropped as that is already planned, with expansion of the Plump Helmet crop to be done posthaste (as they are both edible raw, tasty when cooked, and brewable into wine). While wine is a bit too froofy for Dwarf tastes, combared to Mead, Ale, or Beer, it is better than water because it is potentially-hallucinogenic mushroom 200 proof wine.

I will not discount the idea of rotating all or some soldiers, but I would remind the council that three highly trained soldiers are worth a lot more than nine novices. Especially in the confined terrain of a fortress, where Thermopylae becomes a very workable model for defense. Hallways are currently 3 wide and probably will stay that way unless traffic at high numbers of dwarfs forces expansion of non-defensive areas (entrances, etc.) to 5 wide.

Any dwarf drafted will equip weapons and armour (according to their set preference, I have the current fire team set for Crossbows, with armour being they'll scrounge up the best armour they can up to their set limit (from "Clothes" to "Plate")) and their squad screen has options like "Pursue Enemies", "Stay Close To Posted Area", "Set Patrol Route", "Post Squad At Area", "Antagonize Dangerous Wildlife", etc.

In dire situations, I can draft every dwarf in the fortress, but without weapons for them they will all attempt to wrestle the enemy. Which can be more effective than you figure, as close combat can be very good when you can rip the sword out of an enemy's hand or pin him while your friends chop him up. Of course, that's not to say that it would be pretty watching untrained civilians try to fight armed and armoured goblins with their bare hands.

Rotating soldiers is good but would slow down their training time. Soldiers improve skills by fighting eachother (they attempt to do low damage, but I may have to build a storage closet off of the normal weapons storage in the barracks for deadly (metal) weapons and keep it locked under normal conditions so they equip wooden ones for sparring).

Further, the current proposals on the table will be kept in the Palelabor Assembly for at least one more day. I am instituting an official voting policy- Each member of the Nobility has five votes, Patrician has three votes, and Plebian of any wave has two votes. Pending Immigrants may talk but their talk does not count.

Votes will be counted upon the arbitrary decision of the Chairwoman (me), and I hold ultimate veto power. But still, feel free to discuss and recommend courses of action, as I will listen. I want people to have more interaction with the game, so that it feels more like you're a person instead of a label attached to a smilie face with a beard. I have as much desire to do awesometastic shit as you guys, because if it gets boring and you all leave I'm not having a cool fortress am I? (Although your interests of survival and mine of dramatic combat with many injuries and glorious deaths on both sides do not mesh exactly )

[GuppyShark]

One thing I am curious about - do picks, hammers, shovels etc constitute improvised weaponry? I would expect a miner to at least be capable of swinging his mining pick into a goblin.

[Duckie]

One thing I am curious about - do picks, hammers, shovels etc constitute improvised weaponry? I would expect a miner to at least be capable of swinging his mining pick into a goblin.

Yes, indeed. Picks by miners (I would assume a pick is the game's representation of all mining equipment like shovels, too) and especially the Axes of carpenters make effective weapons, moreso than hands. However, a skilled wielder is still better than one whose experience is only felling trees and not armoured enemies trying to eviscerate him or her.

Training off-duty carpenters and miners as soldiers is an interesting idea, so that they'll always have their weapons on-hand and save us the trouble of forging weapons for the recruits.

[GuppyShark]

It does seem a classically dwarven strategy. Plus, Schatten and rhoenix will get what they want.

[Stark]

If skills don't degrade, getting everyone a few levels of fighting should allow everyone to equip better weapons. Everyone knows true dwarves are a) drunk and b) constantly wearing armour and carrying axes.

It'd take a lot of effort short-term to get enough gear, though. How common are the gobbos? And how far along producing coins are we?

[rhoenix]

Training off-duty carpenters and miners as soldiers is an interesting idea, so that they'll always have their weapons on-hand and save us the trouble of forging weapons for the recruits.

As GuppyShark stated, this does seem like a tactically-sound idea, and it would serve to have my namesake eventually move into soldiering (and heavier drinking) a bit at a time.

If my namesake and Kuja's are your best miners, then I wouldn't request that I go soldiering until you're not using the miners anywhere near as much.

[Nephtys]

It's really easy to turn Peasants into Masons. Just order them to polish the crap out of your Grand Hall, and their own bedrooms.

I'd also note: Growing Helmets is the best possible choice of food. not only does it grow in 3 seasons in good quantities, but you can distill it into 5x Dwarven Wine. Which can in turn, each be baked into 5x dwarven Wine Biscuits!

Booze and Booze-Bread for all?

[GuppyShark]

Additionally, if we are besieged, we're not likely to need the carpenters to chop wood as they won't be able to get outside. Ideally the dwarves who cannot work while the outside is swarming with goblins would be the ones we'd want to have fight.

[Nephtys]

If skills don't degrade, getting everyone a few levels of fighting should allow everyone to equip better weapons. Everyone knows true dwarves are a) drunk and b) constantly wearing armour and carrying axes.

It'd take a lot of effort short-term to get enough gear, though. How common are the gobbos? And how far along producing coins are we?

I think the Coins are on indefinate Haitus due to the unfortunate demise of the only anvil.

[Ford Prefect]

Skilled users of improvised weaponry would be useful - carpenters have axes, miners have picks and Masons have hammers (?). Doing some training for such people would be advisable, if only so that we have extra (moderately) skilled hands to fend off goblins should it come to it.

[Eris]

Something just occurred to me I really should have thought of before...

The anvil was destroyed in that cave in from a while back, yes? And I assume it was the only one to be had. Now, from what I remember if you make anvils at the forge, whereby you need another anvil obviously. But even if you've lost your last one, you can trade for them after you have your economy going. But for getting the dwarven economy up don't you need stacks of coins, and thus an anvil?

I can't remember properly, but is there a way to get a new anvil before your economy is going if you lose the first in a cave in?

[Ford Prefect]

We should be able to trade stone trinkets and such for a new anvil.

[Duckie]

We should be able to trade stone trinkets and such for a new anvil.

We will. However, the Dwarves will, being rank bastards like ourselves, make us pay through the nose for it, according to the Wiki.

Also, Eris, while the Dwarven Economy is jumpstarted by the coins, we do not actually need physical money to have a monetary system. Luckily, I don't think a "confidence in currency" function exists yet, so the economic Nobles might get really pissed but if nescessary we can indeed have a monetary society with no money.

Also, we will need to export enough goods to get a Dwarf Trade Legation to arrive so that we can embarassedly admit we have no anvil and need one, since for some reason the Caravan won't listen to us (game mechanics lol) when undoubtedly we'd have told them the second it happens to bring one next year.

Which is why I am indefinately suspending production of ammunition for Marksdwarfs, and immediately beginning a zerg rush of stone trinkets, bone trinkets, totems made of the skulls of our food animals, and other trade items. If we can export enough goods, economically the Mountainhomes will be forced to send someone to agknowledge the portion of their economy in terms of luxury goods we represent. Forge-father and Mountain-mother know we have enough stone for it, and 20 bolts per cadet is enough for a quick skirmish. I don't think the Goblins will move in force for their first siege (it has not yet occured, people! Vigilance is good but we are not even under attack yet, let us expand our economy while we need not support a military). It will probably just be a raid of a dozen or so goblins.

[Covenant]

Anyone considered yet my idea of putting in 10 fake entrances? It always worked in other basebuilding games unless the critters themselves know hot to get from point A to point B. Won't they just gravitate towards locked doors?

[Stark]

It depends how the AI assesses it, doesn't it? If it uses the door nearest teh moniez, fake doors aren't going to work worth shit. How do they know it's a door? If there's nothing in there, will they even bother to enter? Is it worth wasting time making 'fake caves' that take ten seconds to determine as fake? If it just paths to important places, then it will be worthless.

Oh the other hand, using fortifications or doors to close off a normal entrance but leaving a thin, winding path that eventually leads to a killzone full of slaughterdwarves would work unless they waste time bashing down doors etc. I'd expect them to just find the shortest free path to the goal, so block off the main entrance and force them to come in the sally port single file = win.

On another note, is it worth having smaller tunnels just more mining or resource speculation? Having a main base designed for efficient manufacturing and defence, plus smaller more chaotic vein-following mines might be a safe way to delve without losing everything to an attack, and having actual objects and people in there it might work as a decoy (far more than a 5m tunnel that's empty). At this point our low manpower might render this moot, of course.

[Duckie]

Anyone considered yet my idea of putting in 10 fake entrances? It always worked in other basebuilding games unless the critters themselves know hot to get from point A to point B. Won't they just gravitate towards locked doors?

Creatures appear to wander randomly if they see no prey, and if they see multiple interesting objects (Doors, People, etc.) prioritize and pursue the most interesting.

So, presumably, fake entrances would only work if the goblins or other foes did not see dwarves who happened to be outside or animals or such enter the actual entrance.

However, I am loathe to, similar to making a money-less monetary society, break SOD by abusing the AI, and am uncertain if their pathfinding would be too affected or not affected at all. I have heard that take entrances will undoubtedly distract enemies, almost to the point where you can ignores defenses if you have a deadly enough fake entrance in a good looking spot. It is similar to the inability of enemies save Trolls and Daemons and other big things to destroy doors because they count as buildings, meaning 200 goblins against 1 wooden door that is locked is a victory for the dwarves. Which is why, if any army invades that has not the ability to break our doors, I will leave them shut for exactly 1d6 days before opening them in simulation of trying to break down the main gate.

[Duckie]

It depends how the AI assesses it, doesn't it? If it uses the door nearest teh moniez, fake doors aren't going to work worth shit. How do they know it's a door? If there's nothing in there, will they even bother to enter? Is it worth wasting time making 'fake caves' that take ten seconds to determine as fake? If it just paths to important places, then it will be worthless.

Those 10 seconds of investigating can be deadly if cages start snapping up goblins, spears fly out of walls, 6x6x6m rocks drop on their heads, and war dogs are released from hidden tunnels by pressure plates, and the recessed firing ports for ballistae rain anti-dragon/elephant scale shots upon them.

Oh the other hand, using fortifications or doors to close off a normal entrance but leaving a thin, winding path that eventually leads to a killzone full of slaughterdwarves would work unless they waste time bashing down doors etc. I'd expect them to just find the shortest free path to the goal, so block off the main entrance and force them to come in the sally port single file = win.

They find the shortest, quickest path to percieved goals. Ironically, the very presence of the maze with arrow slits will cause them to swarm the maze trying to reach the dwarves behind it firing on them.

On another note, is it worth having smaller tunnels just more mining or resource speculation? Having a main base designed for efficient manufacturing and defence, plus smaller more chaotic vein-following mines might be a safe way to delve without losing everything to an attack, and having actual objects and people in there it might work as a decoy (far more than a 5m tunnel that's empty). At this point our low manpower might render this moot, of course.

That is exactly as planned once we gain metal forging capacity, as all the gold nuggets and copper ore and hematite is pretty damn useless without the fuckin' anvil.