Putin to Europe: Screw You! Arms Buildup! Wooo!

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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Mange wrote:
Kane Starkiller wrote: Really? What exactly did USSR have to fear if they nuked Indonesia? Would USA retaliate because of that? Or if USA nuked Bolivia? Would USSR retaliate because of that?
You say that Russia won't have any deterrent if this goes through and you will be helpless?
Welcome to my world and world of inhabitants of every country in the world that has no nuclear weapons.
Indeed. There are very few nations which have nuclear weapons (even if there's a big potential). Stas's reasoning is frightening and paranoid.
Er.... I might to you remind you that Russia's current military isn't exactly of the shape that might face off an attack from say China or anyone....

So in the opinion of Russia, the first option is to use nukes if it comes to it.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Vympel wrote: 884 warheads (all mounted on 2,500-3,000km range ALCMs) is still nothing to sneeze at.
And the USAF is in the process of scrapping the several billion dollar over the horizon radars it built to detect that kind of long range attack.
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Post by Mange »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Mange wrote:
Kane Starkiller wrote: Really? What exactly did USSR have to fear if they nuked Indonesia? Would USA retaliate because of that? Or if USA nuked Bolivia? Would USSR retaliate because of that?
You say that Russia won't have any deterrent if this goes through and you will be helpless?
Welcome to my world and world of inhabitants of every country in the world that has no nuclear weapons.
Indeed. There are very few nations which have nuclear weapons (even if there's a big potential). Stas's reasoning is frightening and paranoid.
Er.... I might to you remind you that Russia's current military isn't exactly of the shape that might face off an attack from say China or anyone....

So in the opinion of Russia, the first option is to use nukes if it comes to it.
Point, but that fact is that Stas describes it as something that's almost desirable in itself.
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Post by brianeyci »

I do not see any of what Mange and GS read into Stas Bush's comments. It's not disturbing to me at all saying that if a country uses nukes, it should be wiped from the face of the Earth. When Stas says "use" I assume he means nuclear war in an aggressive fashion, rather than a test bomb or something as innoculous. Not to mention that saying someone is hypocritical is not a valid rebuttal.

As for paranoia, stones from a glass house. Should the United States have a way of shooting down ballistic missiles. Maybe, in an ideal world the military would have a response to any and all potential threats, but the real world has to consider things like budget and practicality. If the ABM is intended to protect against missiles from rogue states, then they should have evidence said rogue state exists with the potential to put a bomb on a missile. I thought that the leap from nuclear bomb to nuclear missile on an ICBM was a non-trivial one. If it can only be done by China or Russia or other major powers, then there isn't much point to a ABM that can be defeated by saturation is there. If North Korea or Iran or other rogue states aren't even on the horizon able to launch an ICBM, what is the point of an ABM, and if they could would a ABM be a secure investment of resources compared to promised annihilation. Meanwhile, "rogue" states leaders want to live as much as you or me.

But let's assume "rogue states" isn't a load of BS and somewhere down the line they develop ICMB's or IRBM's. Tactical nuclear weapons are not what we're talking about here. If we're talking about "rogue" states missiles that the ABM is supposed to protect against, such missiles would be primitive and strategic weapons only. I thought that battlefield nuclear weapons are solely in the realm of Russia, NATO, etc., and not a Kim Jong-Il. If a North Korea uses a nuke on a missile, like Seoul, it will be to target a civilian population center, and the only response to that can be retaliation in kind. Said rogue state will be wiped from the face of the Earth, or close enough with its capital destroyed.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Stas Bush wrote:Just as I said earlier, the nuclear strategic forces are meant to protect the country into ages and ages. Today there's one political situation, tomorrow - another, who knows? The SNF must always be alert and ready to lay waste to anyone, anytime.
Just as I said earlier, the Missile Defense System is meant to protect NATO into ages and ages. Today there's one political situation, tomorrow - another, who knows? The MDS must always be alert and ready to knock anyone's missiles out of the sky, anytime.
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Post by CC »

brianeyci wrote: As for paranoia, stones from a glass house. Should the United States have a way of shooting down ballistic missiles. Maybe, in an ideal world the military would have a response to any and all potential threats, but the real world has to consider things like budget and practicality. If the ABM is intended to protect against missiles from rogue states, then they should have evidence said rogue state exists with the potential to put a bomb on a missile.
Iran has a nuclear program and is working on longer range ballistic missiles (it can already hit Israel). North Korea has nuclear weapons (though they may have screwed up the design) and the range to hit South Korea and Japan and is working on longer range missiles. Pakistan could go rogue. In addition, the Chinese nuclear threat will be eliminated by this ABM system, removing the possibility of nuclear blackmail over the Taiwan issue.
I thought that the leap from nuclear bomb to nuclear missile on an ICBM was a non-trivial one. If it can only be done by China or Russia or other major powers, then there isn't much point to a ABM that can be defeated by saturation is there.
Russia's the only one capable of such saturation without a major buildup, but while the problem is non-trivial, it is possible for them to do so, given enough time.
If North Korea or Iran or other rogue states aren't even on the horizon able to launch an ICBM, what is the point of an ABM, and if they could would a ABM be a secure investment of resources compared to promised annihilation. Meanwhile, "rogue" states leaders want to live as much as you or me.
ABM, by removing the nuclear option from them, means that they cannot threaten our cities even with a bluff. They will not be able to demand anything of us on the basis of their possessing nuclear weapons. Furthermore, we still maintain possession of the ability to annihilate them, this simply adds another arrow to our quiver.
But let's assume "rogue states" isn't a load of BS and somewhere down the line they develop ICMB's or IRBM's. Tactical nuclear weapons are not what we're talking about here. If we're talking about "rogue" states missiles that the ABM is supposed to protect against, such missiles would be primitive and strategic weapons only. I thought that battlefield nuclear weapons are solely in the realm of Russia, NATO, etc., and not a Kim Jong-Il. If a North Korea uses a nuke on a missile, like Seoul, it will be to target a civilian population center, and the only response to that can be retaliation in kind. Said rogue state will be wiped from the face of the Earth, or close enough with its capital destroyed.
Are you seriously saying that it is preferable to allow hundreds of thousands or millions of people to die rather than to build a functioning ABM system? Or, more appropriately, continue the buildup of an already deployed and working ABM system?
Justforfun000 wrote: Is there REALLY any true danger these days of nuking major countries? I find the concept to be so unlikely. A great deal of prior conflicts were fueled by a major lack of communication and a very different world view between countries. We have a much stronger global sense of inclusiveness. The internet, TV and other revolutionary changes have created a world that in general thinks of all countries as being close enough to their 'back yard' to care about any major events affecting them. And if nuclear destruction isn't major enough, I don't know what is.
Until the outbreak of WWI, the world was far more globalized and interconnected than it ever had been or has since been. There's no reason to think that we are now somehow so globalized that another war is impossible.
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Post by brianeyci »

Bullshit CC. You admit that nuclear blackmail is a bluff. Yet you say not having an ABM shield is "allowing hundreds of thousands or millions of people to die."

Given enough time, the United States could stabilize Iraq.

I would like to see evidence that nuclear blackmail is an effective means of diplomacy or international relations at all. This is what the nuclear blackmail crowd and apparently you mean in plain English. "By threatening to use a nuclear weapon, a rogue regime can force the United States to prop them up." Do you know how silly that sounds. Have you ever heard of something called, just say no. The North Korean ambassador, after he got nuclear weapons, said he did not expect to be treated like a non-nuclear state. And the United States did not change their attitude towards North Korea at all.
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Post by Tanasinn »

See, here's my main beef: I forgot when it was officially decided that the United States could trust its various fellow nations with nukes any more than said nations trust the United States with a nuclear defense. It seems to me that the U.S.'s recent pushes to get an ABM system of some sort up and running has more to do with making the United States (and, by convenience of where the systems are placed, its allies) safer from a world that has surely shown less and less liking for the United States for many different reasons. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I certainly don't see leaving the nuclear option open to neutral or even hostile nations as "fair" so much as stupid.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

General Schatten wrote:Just as I said earlier, the Missile Defense System is meant to protect NATO into ages and ages. Today there's one political situation, tomorrow - another, who knows? The MDS must always be alert and ready to knock anyone's missiles out of the sky, anytime.
Go on, build it.

But don't squeam when nuclear countries start building up their arsenals and withdraw from treaties in return.

As for "welcome to the world of those who don't have nuclear weapons" - well, sorry, but I am a citizen of a country which has nuclear weapons. And we don't want to be downgraded to the same level as a country which doesn't have them.

I'm pretty sure the Chinese also object to that, they have been working very hard to set up ICBMs and they only have a few of them. A nuclear country doesn't want to be downgraded to a non-nuclear one.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Stas Bush wrote:Go on, build it.

But don't squeam when nuclear countries start building up their arsenals and withdraw from treaties in return.
And the US will start cranking out more and more, we've done this before for a fifty year stretch.
As for "welcome to the world of those who don't have nuclear weapons" - well, sorry, but I am a citizen of a country which has nuclear weapons. And we don't want to be downgraded to the same level as a country which doesn't have them.
Nothing stops you from building an ABM system... Oh wait, you already did.
I'm pretty sure the Chinese also object to that, they have been working very hard to set up ICBMs and they only have a few of them. A nuclear country doesn't want to be downgraded to a non-nuclear one.
Pretty sure those are solid fuel and they only have a couple dozen, I'm not too worried about a nuclear war with China.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

And the US will start cranking out more and more, we've done this before for a fifty year stretch.
We didn't start this mess.
Nothing stops you from building an ABM system... Oh wait, you already did.
The treaty didn't stop the US from making a single ABM system on it's territory either. There was also a lot of stuff in the treaty, you know... about disallowing _SEA_, _SPACE_ and _AIR_ based ABM system elements. Explicitly. Which the US is doing now with it's ABM, no longer bound by the treaty.
Pretty sure those are solid fuel and they only have a couple dozen, I'm not too worried about a nuclear war with China.
Yeah, but I'm sure China is worried in a possible loss of retaliation abilities.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Stas Bush wrote:We didn't start this mess.
The last time it happened was because someone was overreacting, it's the same again.
The treaty didn't stop the US from making a single ABM system on it's territory either. There was also a lot of stuff in the treaty, you know... about disallowing _SEA_, _SPACE_ and _AIR_ based ABM system elements. Explicitly. Which the US is doing now with it's ABM, no longer bound by the treaty.
Which is why I think those Treaties need to be revised, with China being included as a signatory as well, since they're designing missiles to target satellites.
Yeah, but I'm sure China is worried in a possible loss of retaliation abilities.
And China losing it's ability to target my country with nuclear weapons should bother me, how?
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Ghetto Edit: Besides, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that the only thing that stops us from nuking you is MAD, unless you'd like to concede that?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

The last time it happened was because someone was overreacting
Do you think that a system which damages the offensive ability of our ICBM should be of no concern to us?
Which is why I think those Treaties need to be revised, with China being included as a signatory as well, since they're designing missiles to target satellites.
A revision of the treaty is something else than just withdrawing and starting to build ABM systems. If you noticed, I already proposed revising the treaty or making a new one instead of just acting how you please.
Besides, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that the only thing that stops us from nuking you is MAD, unless you'd like to concede that?
Technically - it is the only thing. Politically - there's a lot of considerations, but as you know political situation can change. Nuclear forces however are the only guarantee that regardless of the situation, political and military leadership would not risk an all-out nuclear offensive.
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Post by Stuart »

Can I make a few points here? As background, I've been working on air defense and missile defense systems for many, many years specifically on the US missile defense system from the mid-1980s through to the early 1990s. Wrapped around that, I've also done a lot of work on strategic nuclear weapons and their use (both the how and the where).

Firstly Grazhdanin Stas is quite right when he says there is no such thing as a limited missile defense system. The reason is that in any such system, the majority of the cost lies in the system, not in the weapons that equip that system. The "system" is called the "Ground Environment" (thus ADGE - Air Defense Ground Environment or MDGE - Missile Defense Ground Environment) and consists of the sensors, missile launchers, command control network, maintenance and support facilities etc. Compared with the cost of the Ground Environment, the actual cost of the missiles is pretty much inconsequential, its about ten percent of the total. Once the Ground Environment is established, adding extra missiles to it is a relatively simple and inexpensive operation. Thus, a "thin" missile screen can become a "thick" missile screen very easily. This was a matter of great concern during the 1970s and 1980s due to US fears that the Soviet Union would stage a "breakout", that is suddenly start to add large numbers of missiles to the Ground Environment established by the missile defense system surrounding Moscow and thus establish a capable defense against US missiles before we could respond. There was a lot of evidence (ambiguous but strategic evidence always is) that the extensions to the Moscow Defense Ground Environment were being built and that a "breakout" was on the cards.

Secondly, meaning no disrespect to anybody, but there appears to be a presumption that only the US is developing a missile defense system and that if US development was stopped, the issue would go away. That is quite simply incorrect. Russia, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, India, Israel, France, Germany and the UK are all working on their own missile defense systems quite independently of any US program or any of those country's involvement in the US programs. ABM systems are a fact of strategic life and they're here to stay. In a US context, the discussion of such systems isn't whether such systems should be developed, that's a given, its whether the US should or should not be one of the countries protected by such a system.

Thirdly, there is nothing conceptually or practically difficult about developing an ABM system. Virtually any country with reasonably modern missile technology and access to modern radars can do it. Thus, the list of countries that could develop such systems isn't limited to the list above. As an example, India recently staged a highly successful ballistic missile interception test. There's no reason why Pakistan couldn't do the same. Or Brazil, or Italy. So, ABM is out of the bag and in the world, its not going to go away. It's costly to get the initial system set up but once done, as we've seen, expanding that system from a prototype to a thick system is pretty economic.

Fourthly ABM systems can be very effective. To give you some idea of how much so, when we design a system intended to stop manned bombers, (an ADGE) we considered ourselves as having done very well if we could stop 40 percent of the inbound aircraft - and no air defense system in history has ever shot down more than 20 percent of an inbound air offensive. However, with MDGEs we were able to confidenly predict kill rates in the high 90 percent region for each layer of the MDS. ICBMs are very easy targets, technically we don't even need an interceptor with a guidance system to hit them. By the way, I note that the old chestnut about swamping the targets with MRVs or MIRVs has come up again. That really doesn't work; we simply shoot the bus down before it discharges its warheads. Contrary to misperceptions, MRVs and MIRVs were not introduced as an anti-ABM precaution, their roots lie elsewhere. In fact MRV and MIRV technology are only viable in the absence of an ABM system; one of the internal logics behind the anti-ABM move in the 1970s was specifically to make MRV and MIRV viable since they were desirable for other reasons.

So, what's going on with Putin and the current kerfuffle?

Another bit of background. When the USSR went splat in 1986-91 it took down most of its strategic forces with it. Some were obsolete and on the verge of dying anyway, some was brand new and needed a lot of money to complete development and deploy, others needed support. Some bits were built in areas that were becoming (or had become) independent. the whole lot just fell apart. Now, truth be told, the USSR (and now Russia) had those strategic forces as its only claim to being a Great Power. The USSR was famously described as being "Upper Volta with rockets" and that's as true today as it was in the 1980s. Economically, politically, Russia is, at best, a regional power of somewhat less significance than France. Only its arsenal of strategic nuclear weapons makes any change to that assessment.

So, when Putin wanted to maintain and assert Russia's status as a Great Power, he had to stabilize and rebuild the country's strategic nuclear forces. Now, we come back to point one. Just like defensive missile systems, offensive missile systems also have a Ground Environment (OMGE - Offensive Missile Ground Environment) and, like defensive systems, the actual weapons are only a tiny proportion of the cost of the system as a whole. (As I always say, think systems, not weapons). Now, the OMGE for a bomber force is its airfields, the OMGE for a sea-based missile force is the SSBNs and the OMGE for a land-based missile force is its silos (plus, in each case, the command and control network that goes with them - relatively inexpensive for bombers, horrendously costly for submarines).

Now, in Russia, the SSBNs were on their last legs, they needed refuelling (not easy or cheap), the hulls were nearly shot and needed replacement. Very expensive. The bomber fleet had atrophied badly and was falling apart, rebuilding it would be expensive. The ICBM fleet was also falling apart, but the Ground Environmentstill existed and could be re-used. Thus, going to a new ICBM solution was apparently the cheapest way of re-establishing the startegic nuclear capability that was Russia's claim to Great Power status. So, Russia invested heavily in rebuilding ICBMs, sticking new ICBMs in old silos was the cheap choice. That's why the first production batches of new missiles went to silos.

Then, horror of horrors, the US (along with a lot of people) started developing ballistic missile defense systems. Worse, the Russian experts took one look at what was coming and saw that they would work and work very well. They knew the ICBM was as obsolete as the battleship of the horse-drawn chariot. Put quite simply, it had been a three-horse race and they'd backed the loser. The US dropped out of the ABM Treaty (a long overdue step, that treaty was fundamentally stupid and should never have been signed in the first place) and that opened up a whole galaxy of options.

The problem with any strategic arms situation like this is that, once one is wrong-footed, its very hard to recover. Russia had made its choice and they were stuck with it. They tried to recover by moving to rail-mobile basing for their ICBMs (very expensive, essentially it combines the worst features of sea-based SLBMs and land-based ICBMs with the advantages of neither - there is a very good reason why the US looked at rail-mobile systems, burst out laughing and hoped the USSR would pick up and copy the idea) and by developing a highly evasive, atmosphere-skimming re-entry vehicle. That has proved extremely expensive and it still doesn't work. Although, if it does work, the new RV will be flying below the intercept envelope of the land-based interceptors, doing so puts it smack into the intercept envelope of ship-based interceptors (fired from AEGIS ships - and there are almost 90 of them). We're pretty happy we can shoot down the new RVs.

Russia's beginning to spend money on more viable systems again. The first of the new SSBNs has just been launched and there are two sisters in production. The Tu-160 bomber is also back in production, rate of build one per year until 2012, probably increasing thereafter, perhaps to three per year. Its not much but its better than nothing. If Russia sticks with ICBMs, nothing is what it will have - and, as Grazhdanin Stas points out, Russia can't afford to be disarmed. Unfortunately, from an American perspective, that's their problem. They picked the wrong horse, they have to live with the consequences.

Anyway, a lot of the Putin affair is bluster aimed at a possibility of eliminating missile defenses (no chance, too many countries have a finger in that pie) and hiding what was a serious strategic error in building the wrong system. Another point is that Putin is very well aware that the European systems being developed will neutralize his short-range ballistic missile fleet so he's hoping that by making a lot of fuss at this point, he'll slow down or stop development of those systems.

A few other points. Mutually Assured Destruction is not and has never been US nuclear policy. Our policy was and is to maintain a secure and effective strike capability against any enemy. Secure means it can't be countered, effective means that we can totally destroy that enemy. To quote one of the NSC papers from the 1950s "America does not wage war on its enemies, it destroys them" (you may recognize that quotation from TBO - very little of the strategic stuff in TBO is fictional).

Technically, a missile defense system allows a country that has both an offensive and a defensive missile fleet to threaten with one while the other makes a counter-attack impossible. That's plausible but it doesn't work that way in reality. In reality, if one country develops a defensive system, others will as well and the situation carries on as normal. With one big exception - missile defense takes ICBMs off the table. To me, that's a very good thing. ICBMs are dangerously destabilizing, they are one-shot, one-chance weapons. Once fired, that's it, a nuclear war has started. They can't be aborted, turned around or re-targeted. Get rid of them and diplomacy has a better chance of stopping that war from happening. It's good to win a war, better to have never fought one.

We weren't "deterred" from launching a first strike on the USSR, we never intended to do so. What we did intend (and did) was to contain the USSR, force them to engage in a strategic arms race that would break their economy and thus ruin the USSR economically. The nuclear posturing was intended to further that aim - and it worked. We broke the USSR economically, we destroyed its military forces not on the battlefield but in the factories and stock exchanges. A nuclear first strike never featured in that plan, the intention was always to make that strike unnecessary. If it hadn't been for the idiocy of the Kennedy/Johnson/Carter era, we could have pulled it off much earlier.

(Are we doing the same thing now? That might be your opinion, I couldn't possibly comment :) )
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Duh. It's pretty much sad to hear from Stuart that ABMs are now being developed by everyone, but I guess that's the only way. I mean, now there are no two powers who could basically contain nuclear weapons in their own hands, today there's a lot of folks who also want them and they have never even signed the ABM treaty.

I would've rather had a new treaty made anyway because Russia does not want a new arms race, the old one was bad enough.
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Post by Kane Starkiller »

It's sad that ABM is being developed by many countries?? Why??
The missile defense actually enables a country to DEFEND against missiles instead of counting on enemies fear of retaliation keeping his nukes in check. (Or in case of Germany, for example, not being able to do anything.)

And no one is forcing Russia into an arms race. There are many prosperous countries and indeed economic superpowers like Japan or Germany which don't have a single nuclear weapon.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

As for Stuart's opinion that the inevitable escalation of nuclear warfare to total in case of an ICBM launch, I beg to differ here.

History shows that when there's something less than the threat of total annihilation, nations are very eager to start a war. I don't know why this is the case, possibly it's just the common modus operandi of imperialism, but this does not matter at all.

Two World Wars were not started as World Wars. World War I escalated into a World War from a minor conflict - so did World War II.

But World War III never happened - perhaps because trigger-happy militarists and politicians understood - there will be not much left for them after it, and there's no turning back past the red point, past the use of nuclear missiles.

This fear, which we have - as common citizens - might be less for them, but only the inevitability, the irreversible character of the decision to wage nuclear war holds them back from making this terrible mistake.

If nuclear war is reversible, nuclear annihilation - not imminent, destruction - not absolute, it just becomes another military abilty. Nuclear forces stop being a deterrent for trigger-happy people and start being just another option on the table.
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Post by Stuart »

Stas Bush wrote:Duh. It's pretty much sad to hear from Stuart that ABMs are now being developed by everyone, but I guess that's the only way. I mean, now there are no two powers who could basically contain nuclear weapons in their own hands, today there's a lot of folks who also want them and they have never even signed the ABM treaty.
That's exactly the problem. Arms control agreements are an exercise in futility; in all of history there has never been a single case of a weapon being sucessfully eliminated by treaty provisions. They always come back. The only way a weapon can be eliminated is by making the weapon obsolete (by inventing a better way of doing the same job - the muzzle-loading musket was driven from the battlefield by breech-loading rifles, not by treaty) or by removing the reason for its existence.

The ABM Treaty had exactly the same problem, it tried to eliminate by dictat a class of weapons that was very useful. The problem was that it didn't eliminate the reason why that class of weapon was extremely useful. As a result, people simply started to look for ways of achieving the same end without using the banned class of weapons. If we want to eliminate ABM, the only way to do it is to eliminate the reason for its existance - ballistic missiles.

I would've rather had a new treaty made anyway because Russia does not want a new arms race, the old one was bad enough.[/quote]

A treaty won't solve anything I fear. This is another problem with arms control treaties, they place restrictions that are frozen in technology time and place. As technology develops, it out-runs those restrictions. Simple example - when the ABM Treaty was signed, computers were big, expensive and power-hungry; the guidance complexes were huge things. Now, we can put them in the back of a truck. Even more interesting, we can put them in an aircraft and use the aircraft's missiles as the ABM (or ASAT) system. The South Koreans are playing with that - hanging a THAADS missile pack under the wing of an F-15K. Looks like it will work too.

After all, a missile is just a defenseless aircraft that flies very fast in a straight line. Given modern air-to-air missiles, theer's no reason why one shouldn't be usable for an ABM role. Got a lot of advantages.

The real way out for Russia in this situation is to accept that ICBMs are obsolete and look for alternatives (which is, I think, happening). The worst decisions are the ones made a few years back - for example rail-mobile basing. That's only of use in avoiding a first-strike (and the only rason for a first-strike is to get the enemy's weapons before they are launched. If a country has an adequate ABM screen, there's no reason for it to have a first-strike policy.

To be honest, I'd put Russia's real priorities as

1 - Thickening the existing ABM system thus providing a screen against China and rogue idiots like Nork and Iran

2 - stopping ICBM production and deployment

3 - speeding up the 955 class submarines

4 - building more Tu-160 bombers (they can go through the Chinese air defense system like it isn't there

To do that, Putin's going to have to admit that previous decisions were all wrong. That'll take some doing.
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Post by Vympel »

Some general comments:
They tried to recover by moving to rail-mobile basing for their ICBMs (very expensive, essentially it combines the worst features of sea-based SLBMs and land-based ICBMs with the advantages of neither - there is a very good reason why the US looked at rail-mobile systems, burst out laughing and hoped the USSR would pick up and copy the idea)
I'm not aware of anything indicating that Russia looked at rail-mobile basing for it's ICBMs after the USSR collapsed. That was strictly a pre-USSR thing, AFAIK. The first road-mobile Topol-Ms were just deployed last year (three of them, I believe, in December 06)- but they were nothing new, since Russia has hundreds of road-mobile Topols to begin with.
The Tu-160 bomber is also back in production, rate of build one per year until 2012, probably increasing thereafter, perhaps to three per year.
Again AFAIK the Tu-160 production of recent years has merely been the completion of incomplete airframes that lay idle at Kazan- it's an open question as to whether they'd start actual new airframes when that supply runs out (it probably just did, or is about to, going from my top-of-the-head memory of the situation there). There may also be confusion in the interpretation of the Russian aviation/military press, as the Russians have firm plans to upgrade their current Tu-160 force at a rate of IIRC 1-2 per year. The first modernized example (I believe it was modernized while being built at Kazan) has IIRC already been delivered.

Still, the press has started rumbling about the development of a new bomber.
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Post by Stuart »

Stas Bush wrote:History shows that when there's something less than the threat of total annihilation, nations are very eager to start a war. I don't know why this is the case, possibly it's just the common modus operandi of imperialism, but this does not matter at all.
Which is why the laws of war are insane. Warfare should be horrible and dreadful, a frightful thing that makes people run cold with terror. Trying to be nice in war just makes it acceptable.
But World War III never happened - perhaps because trigger-happy militarists and politicians understood - there will be not much left for them after it, and there's no turning back past the red point, past the use of nuclear missiles. This fear, which we have - as common citizens - might be less for them, but only the inevitability, the irreversible character of the decision to wage nuclear war holds them back from making this terrible mistake. If nuclear war is reversible, nuclear annihilation - not imminent, destruction - not absolute, it just becomes another military abilty. Nuclear forces stop being a deterrent for trigger-happy people and start being just another option on the table.
The problem is that once the first missiles fly, the internal dynamics of a situation mean that all limits are off. There's another saying about this "one flies, they all fly". The reason is very simple. Country A detects an inbound missile - it has three choices.

1 - don't respond at all - the launching country gets its strike in, Country A is defeated without firinga shot.

2 - A limited response - Country A fires a similar number of missiles back. But. what happens to the rest? What if the launch country has fired all its missiles - Country A gets hammered and only gets a limited strike in as retaliation.

3 - A full response, empty the arsenal at the launching country. At leats the launching country will be equally devastated so doesn't win.

In practice option 3 is the only viable choice. However, suppose a frantic call comes in "Sorry, that was a mistake, we didn't mean it for God's sake don't shoot, we'll pay reparations, do whatever you like, just don't shoot."

The options

1 - The call is genuine. Its believed, country A holds fire disaster is averted

2 - The call is genuine. Its not believed, Country A shoots back with everything it has.

3 - The call is a ruse, its believed, Country A holds fire and is devastated without any retaliation

4 - The call is a ruse, its not velieved, Country A lets fly, both countrys devasted.

That's 3 to 1 in favor of shooting. In reality, the decision is always, ignore the call and shoot. Now, the country that originally launched knows that, they know their call won't be believed. So they have to choices after the single-missile launch.

1 - Pray that something will happen and country A won't shoot.

2 - Let fly with everything they have.

Follow the logic tree and no matter how one fiddles it, in the absence of ABM, one flies, they all fly.

Now add ABM to the equation. Country A shoots down the first missile and calls the launch country with a simple message. "We shot it down. Now, do you want to talk or fry?" It's a break point, one that stops the slide.

Add in something else. The decision time high up is limited by the time for the missile to reach its target - a few minutes at best. That's what makes it inevitable. There's no time to do anything clever. With ABM, we buy time for somebody to think of something.
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Post by Starglider »

Stas Bush wrote:I would've rather had a new treaty made anyway because Russia does not want a new arms race, the old one was bad enough.
Russia is having trouble with letting go of the idea of being a great power in a similar way that France and the UK had trouble with letting go post-WW2, despite being on the winning side. The need to match the US in strategic arms doesn't seem to be felt by any other country.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Add in something else. The decision time high up is limited by the time for the missile to reach its target - a few minutes at best. That's what makes it inevitable. There's no time to do anything clever. With ABM, we buy time for somebody to think of something.
That's not exactly the problem in the long term.

The long-term problem would be very simple. ICBMs would become less favoured and other types of weaponry would take the lead. Other types of weaponry which can be used in a limited fashion, without the "one flies, all fly" problem.

This will sooner or later pose the problem of limited nuclear conflict.
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Post by Pelranius »

Stuart: Wouldn't Russia have more to worry about America than China in terms of nuclear capability?

America has a lot of nukes on Minutemen ICBMs and Ohio SSBNs, and also a defense pact with a lot of nations bordering Russia (NATO).
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Post by Stuart »

Stas Bush wrote:That's not exactly the problem in the long term. The long-term problem would be very simple. ICBMs would become less favoured and other types of weaponry would take the lead. Other types of weaponry which can be used in a limited fashion, without the "one flies, all fly" problem. This will sooner or later pose the problem of limited nuclear conflict.
With respect, I would say that the chance of a limited nuclear war is very small. It doesn't really matter what system was used to deliver the nuclear device to its target, its the very fact of its use that's critical. The sheer scale of damage that the use of nuclear weapons involves is such that any use of nuclear weapons will escalate very quickly to full exchange levels. Obviously, we have no real-world experience to go on in that area but we did a lot of conflict simulations back in the good old days and they all escalated very quickly (on Central Front Europe based scenarios the nuclear initiations were marching east and west within hours. We had a joke about confrontations on the CFE - breakfast at peace, by lunchtime the bacon is frying itself). That's why its so important to avoid taking the first step.

The problem with ICBMs is that the response time is so limited and the nature of the weapon is so irreversible that they are intensely destabilizing systems. They make it far more likely that the process leading to a nuclear exchange will take place. I would say that a tiny increase in the chance of a limited nuclear war would be a price worth paying for a major decrease in the chance of a full-scale exchange. Getting rid of ICBMs by establishing a viable ABM shield would certainly achieve the latter while it is doubtful if it would result in the former.
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