The Federation - evil ?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-07-14 03:14pm

The Federation is by no means as perfect as it claims too.... it has definately not eliminated racism, as B'Elanna Torres' childhood flashbacks in the Voyager episode "Lineage" clearly show. (or was it Barge of the Dead??? My memory is slightly rustly)[/i]

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-14 07:26pm

If the events of Insurrection are anything to go by the feds have some serious problems.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-14 11:12pm

Something obviosuly happened between TOS and TNG since the general attitude in TOS was just like it is now. I'm not denying that it happened in Trek, I'm just trying to figure out why. To me it looks like something happened, like some dependence on replicators and holodecks for food and pleasure. This can be used a form of control over the populace. Think about it, most of this "better ourselves and the galaxy" comes from some would be diplomat trying to get people to join the Federation

Yes, I suppose it could be... but no one here using this argument has, or can, show any evidence that they are used this way.

To reply to Piett... where did you get the idea that civilization in ST grew more responsible because of its technology? The more logical explanation lies in WWIII being the root of a sort of massive panic, in which human beings realized that to continue to behave as we do now would result sooner or later in human extinction... probably sooner. Is that not at least plausible?

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-14 11:15pm

One other thing to the person whose message I quoted; if you truly believe that Picard gave Lilly Sloane that speech about "evolved sensibilities" and trying to "better ourselves", tell me this -- why would Picard have been trying to recruit a 21st century woman to join the 24th century Federation?

Obviously, it wasn't a recruiting speech, but a nutshell explanation for humanity's weaning itself from its obsession with accumulating wealth.

And, as pointed out earlier, nowhere is it stated that the personal pursuit of wealth is no longer an option, merely that it is no longer a requirement for survival.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-14 11:16pm

I dunno, the fact that today we have enough nukes to fuck oursevles nine ways to Sunday and the general populace isn't even flinching says something to me.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 11:18pm

Yeah but having them is one thing.

Seeing almost everything in the way of population centers destroyed and the world brought to its knees is very different.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-14 11:18pm

Picard stills sounds like a brainwashed walking propaganda bomb to me.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 11:20pm

If he was brainwashed why does he oppose the state so often?

Ditto for the Maquis why didnt they just submit?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-14 11:20pm

So after all the "Fuck you! I'm taking all the rations and going to find a cave!" Man became better?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 11:21pm

Its going to take us all to pull together but then we will get back on our feet - thats what came from WW 3 it seems.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-07-14 11:31pm

Ah but once its all together, we go back to the same thing!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-14 11:49pm

No because then we had to expand nito the stars and coperation had become a cultural norm.

Also it didnt as evidenced - the federation is evil has no basis whatsoever and yet almost 80% which proves bias, blind following of what they think Wongs reasoning is (he meant using current humans not using canon evidence) or because hey think ST is the enemy of wars and thus they most fight against anything st.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-15 12:22am

I am so sick of this Warsie bullshit. Not satisfied with having near total military superiority over the Federation in Empire vs Federation debates, you see fit to demonstrate your insecurity and ignorance by making a dedicated effort do demonizing the Federation socially, a civilization meant to symbolize a better future, a social ideal. Gene Roddenberry would turn over in his damn grave if he had one if he knew a small number of stupid people were reading into his creation, trying to imply that his more evolved humanity is nothing more than a fraud. Instead of looking at the intent of it's creator, a better man than Geroge fucking Lucas will ever be because he dared to create something to give humanity hope rather than beat us over the head with the pessimism and negative opinion of humanity that has taken sci-fi hostage, you look for anything at all, whether it be real or a product of your own diseased, nauseatingly negative, small minded imagination because you cannot accept the possibility that human beings do have the capacity for good and to grow, even when you are given a plausible scenario where it could actually happen (humanity being forced to ban together for the common good to rebuild after WW III, contact with a benevolent alien species, and the means being created to eliminate various social plagues like hunger and poverty). Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you insist that because in your own pessimistic opinion humanity cannot change that the Federation must somehow have brainwashed it's citizens into being good, happy productive people. Well you're damn right they did, generation after generation of people being raised by their parents and being influenced by a society founded on a previous society started after WW III and first contact with the Vulcans where humanity had to work together in order to even survive as a whole let alone advance. Read up on sociology and pyschology, human nature has been proven to be heavily dependent on our surroundings and our society. No civilization is 100% perfect, the Federation has eliminated the need for money but some traits of humanity like prejudice and rascism still survive but as in our own societies, they are gradually reduced because of greater awareness and access to information about other cultures. Out of all the people we have seen in the Federation only a handful ever show any greed (what's the point in being greedy when you don't need profit and can get practically whatever you want from a replicator?)

You can't change human nature, that's bullshit. Decades of equality among the sexes and races in the US have made a significant dent in sexism and racism. Look at the statistics, fewer than 1% of female workers make claims of sexual harassment in the workplace. The information age has also provided an opportunity for greater understanding of other people and civilizations. After 9-11, many pessimistic people predicted a rise in hate crimes against Middle Easterners living in the US and yet reports of hate crimes, which always gain a great deal of coverage in the media, are few.

One aspect of human nature that is stressed is that human beings fear and hate what they cannot understand, Prejudices are borne of ignorance. I see that this all too true here.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-15 12:39am

SCVN 2812: Well Said, well said indeed.

By the way the sigs great

"There... are... FOUR LIGHTS" .

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-07-15 01:52am

Gene Roddenberry was a fat old geek, Star Trek sucks, and communism doesn't work even if Picard says so.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-15 02:00am

Look Darkling! a person who knows when he's been beaten but won't admit it.

Is it really communism as we define it? You say yes, Wong says yes, but the replicator says no.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-15 02:01am

GrandAdmiralPrawn: Thats very trollish of you - you dishonour us.... for shame, for shame.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-07-15 02:43am

Lick my nuts, dipshit. You think cavlary can beat tanks. LOL.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-15 02:49am

Answer me how the average person is supposed to know that tanks have locks?

Who's the bigger dipshit, somebody who judges an entire civilization evil just on his own prejudices and ignorance or somebody who makes a simple mistake?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-07-15 02:56am

I find your stupidty at even entertaining the notion that they might possibly NOT have locks to be utterly laughable.

Crewman #1: "Oh crap, we hit another bump and the hatch flew open again!"

Crewman #2: "We should really do something about that. Maybe tie a belt around it?"

Crewman #1: "Or glue it shut?"

Iraqi soldier (from above): "Die, American pigdogs!"

Crewman #2: "Hey, he tossed a grenade in here!"

Crewman #1: "That wasn't very nice."

*BLAM*

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-15 03:05am

Okay I had that comming, it's 2:00 AM though, and you didn't deny being a dipshit for making a baseless accusation.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-15 09:01am

Mr SCVN 2812,I understand well that when we watch star trek we have to believe that their society work in the way it is depicted, without brain washing chairs and the other stuff I described above.The point is however that in the real world such a society could not function.
Culture and political opinions can change.As I said above in the 2200 they will probably consider our treatment of immigrants like we consider slavery.
But there are human basic traits that do not change.
Human beings are cruel,selfish and greedy.
If you had ever seen a brawl you would know that people gather around because they want see men beating other men,exactly like they romans did in their amphitheaters.2000 years of christianity have changed nothing.
Many liberals like to point out that in primitives tribes there are altruistic behaviours and little private property.However they love also to forgot that the lucky hunter shares his prey in the hope that tomorrow the other will do the same with him.And in anyway since they have to move there is no point in having a lot of assets they would have to ferry around.So they are only apparently altruistic and thus you have to recreate the same conditions to duplicate them,like small units of soldiers in wartime.As soon as men become standing and start to practice agriculture and stock farming private property and greediness arise.Is it only a coincidence?
Proper education may limit this but cannot eliminate this.Replicators are not a magic tech that solves everything.They are simply a very practical mean to produce small objects without the need of specialized assembly lines and commercial infrastructures.Certainly they cannot,or at least it is not normally covenient, build starships, buildings or an holodeck.Why a person should not desire to have his own holodeck at home (Iam not speaking about a simple holoprojector,I mean a full scale holodeck,with forcefields,built in transporters and the other stuff)?
I think that the average person would like to have his own warp capable starship,a bigger house,a private holodeck and a repulsorlift sport car in the garage.And while I personally would be more than satisfied by the reading of my hand copy of Jane's fighting starships while I am awaiting for a repulsorlift bus to carry me back at home in a 24th century version of a soviet building with food replicators and self cleaning floors,the majority of people clearly would not.
Note also that we have had to rebuild after WWII and this has not changed anything.In the developed countries we have nearly eliminated hunger, but last time I checked looking out of the window the European Union does not look like the federation.
And still I would like to hear a plausible explanation on how people are motivated to work so hard if the only payement they get in exchange is social acceptance.Remeber also that this is not like star wars:if the Neimodians do not want to risk their lives they can build battledroids and if no one want to go out in EVA to do maintenance they will build astromechs.In the federation the level of automation is more or less the same as today (although I would bet that this is due more to political decisions than to technological limitations) thus they need people that have to do uninteresting/unpleasing jobs,such as installing standard replicators in the houses or unloading the 24th century equivalent of containers (with transporters or shuttles) from a government owned merchant ship.These jobs can be made more attractive than how typically they would be today but I doubt that you would find enough volounteers to meet the demand, especially if for their work they cannot get more goods than their neighbour that does nothing.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-15 01:13pm

One common myth about ST is that nobody can own a ship or practically anything else. Not only is the owning of ships legal, but it's not uncommon either. In ST III McCoy walks into a bar expecting to find somebody with a warp capable ship and does. The Klingon woman in the same movie hires a ship piloted by two civilian humans.

Kassidy Yates, a civilian, had her own freightor while being a Federation citizen operating out of a Federation installation.

During the Klingon war, the Defiant was assigned to escort civilian freightors.

The Picards owned a winery.

Sisko's father owned a restaurant.

I personally object to just labeling the Federation a communist state because we don't even really know how it works. We can speculate how these people got their possessions, but that's all we can do. We just know that money has fallen into disuse among MOST but not all humans, Starfleet officers do not get paid, hunger disease war poverty has been virtually eliminated- on Earth, replicators are prolific and civilians do own them- the Picards had one put in prior to Captain Picard's visit, personel replicators are able to provide food and small uncomplicated items, industrial replicators exist and apparently just a handful were enough to be of significant aide to Cardassia.

Cruelty, selfishness and greed are learned behaviors, not basic human traits and if they are then they can be suppressed because if they were basic traits or couldn't be suppressed or controled then there would be no civilization, just anarchy. We still see the minority who cannot control themselves even in the Federation, the Orion Syndicate is a prime example.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-15 02:22pm

How was a normal person supposed to know that a tank was equipped with locks and machine guns? Because a normal person is not a complete idiot! A normal person would know that the first tanks were designed to defeat large groups of infantry, and that they have evolved to allow a tank to engage structures and other tanks without sacrificing their primary role.

I like Admiral Piett because he actually recognizes human behavior for what it is.

SCVN, again I find your idiocy distasteful. Just because someone can own something does not mean that the society is not communist. The Chinese allow people to own private property, but they are also a communist nation.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-15 04:26pm

I think that we are speaking about the TNG and post TNG era.Before they appeared to have an economical system more similar to the ours.
Thus the ST III examples are not valid.
The civilian freighters escorted by the Defiant could be well government owned,unless specified otherwise.
The Picard owned winery is not necessarily a proof,as mr Wong has pointed out it may well be a sort of living museum.Believe it or not in New York, more precisely in the Queens there is a small old style farm,with living stock(cows,pigs etc),small cropfields and so on.It is used by schools to show to children how agriculture worked.In the European Union we have similar things to serve similar purposes.
Thus we remain only with Cassidy yates' starship and Sisko's father's restaurant.Can you provide more details?
By the way I am not denying that people own some things.In the soviet union people were allowed to own cars and personal items.Some peasants
had,as state concession,small lots of land that they were allowed to cultivate,the same for few small shops.This could explain very well Sisko's father's restaurant and a small italian coffee that Harry Kim visited in a Voyager's episode.
The apparent lack of private owned equivalents of cars beats even the Soviet Union,although an alternate explanation may be that cities are simply closed to private traffic,not a bad idea in effect.
Houses and replicators and other necessary things are probably assignated by the state,otherwise their claims to have defeated poverty,intended here as hunger and lack of shelters would be lies.
On a technological note I think that replicators are what I said they are.Starships are apparently built in conventional slipways,and their hulls appear to be made by conventional plates welded together.To draw a small design like the Defiant,to build large replicators and to start to churn out starships like toasts would be extremely convenient in wartime.If they do not do it there will be a good reason.Either replicators have maximum limits in their size or the process is not convenient (too much energy required) on that scale.Probably both.
The industrial replicators are probably used to build machinery used in a more conventional production.
Laziness is as far as I know a genetic trait.Since humanity has evolved in a situation of scarcity of resources wasting energies when not needed is not a good idea(if one knows the matter better I will be glad to hear,as usual).
Of course it can be controlled but for the average human being doing an not very satisfying job, and there must be a lot of them in the federation, without getting any material compensation requires a level of control which borders in brainwashing.
Gene had his utopian vision,beautiful if you wish,but like all utopian visions,impossible to implement in reality.Life will never be like in TNG.

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The Federation - evil ?

Do you think the Federation works the way it promises?