StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Peptuck wrote:While the demons in Hell followed Satan out of fear, the angels seem to follow Yaweh out of honest devotion and belief.

Translation: "Durr... boy, we iz stupid angel-peoples. We'ze believe wif'out no proof."

Of course, they haven't had much chance to learn differently, have they?

My childhood consisted of "Trust no one. Not even me. Not even yourself. No one is what they appear to be."

Michael appears to know how to compartmentalize and properly apply a healthy dose of paranoia, but his subordinates would seem to require remedial classes in it.

Ed.

Cecelia5578 wrote:By making Michael out to be such an exceedingly capable opponent, I fear that the only way of defeating him will entail a (pun intended) deus ex machina moment.

I wouldn't say that. He still faces significant a significant military disadvantage (he himself admits if living humans do get into Heaven it's game over), and the fact that Earth is working on a way of generating portals to Heaven is quite worrying from his perspective. A little bad luck could easily screw him over at this point.

If he manages to hold out long enough (decades) and seize internal power in Heaven I could see him potentially becoming a sort of more successful Angelic Muhammad Ali Pasha, making Heaven a truly formidable opponent to mankind. Things have to go well for him for that to happen though (for starters, he has to keep humans absolutely ignorant of Heaven's interdimensional "location" after they develop their potential Heaven portal gun in a few years). There are a hundred ways this plan could go disastrously wrong, and that's assuming he realizes the need for defensive modernization (which is a logical assumption given how intelligent and wily he is, but nonetheless an assumption).

I doubt that's the direction Stuart is going to go, but it would make an interesting AU if you ask me.

Some questions about the differing laws of physics between dimensions: Did the Baldricks cast any long-range electricity during Abigor's initial invasion? I'm afraid I don't recall exactly. I do remember them casting ineffectually at tanks from a distance, but I'm not sure if that was during Abigor's incursion or during the fighting within Hell. If it was the former, however, then shouldn't the baldrick electricity casting be relatively useless on Earth since they're now adhering to a different set of rules for a different plane of existence?

Richard Sharpe wrote:Fair enough. Just a little barely masked national fanboyism, is all.

Edit: Even Singapore? Damn.

It's funny given the fact that many people around the world still thinks that Singapore is a part of Malaysia or some province in China.

It doesn't seem like Michael's plan is to develop Heaven to conquer the other dimensions, or that he has any real hostile intentions toward Earth and humans. And it is entirely feasible that, if he managed to topple Yahweh and get in communication with the Earth leadership to negotiate some kind of cease-fire, it might be accepted. After all, if Michael's new regime isn't hostile there's no reason to either nuke Heaven or invade to liberate it, at least as long as certain other agreements are in place. The real problem is the need to carry out his budding coup before the humans have access to Heaven, and the potential that by then the human governments will have no interest in anything except unconditional surrender. In essence Michael would then be stuck in the position of the Valkyrie plotters in 1944, who even if they had succeeded (improbably) in killing Hitler and taking control of Germany, would not have won any particular concessions from the Allies. Though Michael seems to have at least some motives for his actions other than a dawning realization the war is lost, so the parallels are not exact by far; the biggest threat he poses in the short term is that his actions will upset the plans of the human governments for a post-war order that places Heaven and Hell under de-facto human administration.

Morilore wrote:

Michael had always said if the humans on Earth could get a foothold in Heaven for their armies, the war would be over. He must have realized the potential of that bottle to be such a foothold. That sublime insight made Lemuel proud to be his friend.

You poor, dumb son of a bitch. I feel sorry for this character already.

Oh, that bottle is signifying such a foothold... just not in the way that Lemuel probably thinks that Michael thinks it is. (Strangely enough, I forgot the rule about "proof" and thought that it was 100%, not 100 proof. )

I'm rooting for Lemuel to find out Michael's treachery and do something against it. Go, you fucker!

ray245 wrote:It's funny given the fact that many people around the world still thinks that Singapore is a part of Malaysia or some province in China.

I can confirm this one, I've an English buddy who didn't know why a self-identifying Singaporean was flipping out about being mistaken for Chinese.

On the other hand, even if Michael's planned coup succeeds, there's no reason why we can't just sign a truce with him and then tear it up on some manufactured pretense or false flag operation. Talk about strategic surprise.

Junghalli wrote:

Cecelia5578 wrote:By making Michael out to be such an exceedingly capable opponent, I fear that the only way of defeating him will entail a (pun intended) deus ex machina moment.

I wouldn't say that. He still faces significant a significant military disadvantage (he himself admits if living humans do get into Heaven it's game over), and the fact that Earth is working on a way of generating portals to Heaven is quite worrying from his perspective. A little bad luck could easily screw him over at this point.

If he manages to hold out long enough (decades) and seize internal power in Heaven I could see him potentially becoming a sort of more successful Angelic Muhammad Ali Pasha, making Heaven a truly formidable opponent to mankind. Things have to go well for him for that to happen though (for starters, he has to keep humans absolutely ignorant of Heaven's interdimensional "location" after they develop their potential Heaven portal gun in a few years). There are a hundred ways this plan could go disastrously wrong, and that's assuming he realizes the need for defensive modernization (which is a logical assumption given how intelligent and wily he is, but nonetheless an assumption).

I doubt that's the direction Stuart is going to go, but it would make an interesting AU if you ask me.

You're not serious, are you? You actually think that because he is personally clever, he could somehow achieve technological advancement comparable to that of a modern high-tech industrialized nation, starting from a Bronze Age base and working with colleagues who are mostly calcified in their thinking and underlings who were selected for their lack of independent thought?

Every human in Heaven is there because he did not exhibit a penchant for asking questions in life. Historically, most primitive human societies operated the way Heaven and Hell operate: society is intellectually stagnant and most advancement comes from the occasional brilliant individual, if he is given the chance to operate. This is nothing at all like modern society, in which we have mandated learning across society, internalized the empirical mindset, and created an entire industry for the early identification of intellectually talented individuals.

Darth Wong wrote:You're not serious, are you? You actually think that because he is personally clever, he could somehow achieve technological advancement comparable to that of a modern high-tech industrialized nation, starting from a Bronze Age base and working with colleagues who are mostly calcified in their thinking and underlings who were selected for their lack of independent thought?

Eh, you've got a good point there.

No matter how clever he is, if he fucks up or if we catch up to him, an anti-ship missile to the chest will kill him just as dead as it did to Satan.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:No matter how clever he is, if he fucks up or if we catch up to him, an anti-ship missile to the chest will kill him just as dead as it did to Satan.

An anti-ship missile is overkill. If a sniper gets a clean shot at his head, he can probably take him out with a single .50cal round. In Satan's case, no sniper ever got into that position, so they used a ridiculously powerful weapon to kill him with absolute certainty.

Darth Wong wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:No matter how clever he is, if he fucks up or if we catch up to him, an anti-ship missile to the chest will kill him just as dead as it did to Satan.

An anti-ship missile is overkill. If a sniper gets a clean shot at his head, he can probably take him out with a single .50cal round. In Satan's case, no sniper ever got into that position, so they used a ridiculously powerful weapon to kill him with absolute certainty.

In the first infantry battle against Baldricks they were tolerant against single 50cal shots to the head.

Furthermore Satan was already recovering from the AShM strike before the second AShM strike put him down.

JSF's right - and Micheal's not that much different from Satan, both of them being Angels and all that, unless there's a huge disparity in terms of "power levels" between the lot of them.

Darth Wong wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:No matter how clever he is, if he fucks up or if we catch up to him, an anti-ship missile to the chest will kill him just as dead as it did to Satan.

An anti-ship missile is overkill. If a sniper gets a clean shot at his head, he can probably take him out with a single .50cal round. In Satan's case, no sniper ever got into that position, so they used a ridiculously powerful weapon to kill him with absolute certainty.

But he'll heal from that! And since it won't damage his adamantium skeleton - most of the energy of impact will go into strengthening the molecular bonds in the vibranium alloy - we have no way to ultimately kill Michael!

A random thought just popped into my head.

Has it been touched upon as to why Satan, His Dukes, Generals ETC. are all a bunch of snarling beasts despite the fact that they were supposed to have been angels before they started the war with heaven? I realize that subsequent generations of demons could have evolved differently in Hell's environment, but shouldn't Satan and the other fallen look similar to Micheal and the rest?

Forgive me if this has been explained already.

Was there a detailed description of Satan's physical characteristics, anyway? For all we know, being like Yaweh or Satan and actively feeding on the suffering or worship of prostrating shitpieces can mutate you horrifically as you gain REAL ULTIMATE POWER.

Surlethe you suck.

Cecelia5578 wrote:By making Michael out to be such an exceedingly capable opponent, I fear that the only way of defeating him will entail a (pun intended) deus ex machina moment.

If there is a deus in the ex machina, he'll be running for his life by the end of the story

The easy way out would be for Michael to be in charge of heaven after Yahweh is eventually defeated, as Stuart certainly has a penchant for likeable villians-Goering and the Cuban Mob in TBO, for example.

The reason is that its likeable villains that are truly dangerous. It's easy to create a monster who walks around carrying a blood-covered axe and slaughters everybody on sight. The problem is that they're obvious from the start and everybody knows who and what they are. However, the really dangerous people are the good-humored, affable villains who bury their villainy behind charm and good nature. Disbelief at their nature is one of their greatest weapons and their genial friendliness presents their greatest danger. Goering is the classic example, when I was researching into the man, one could almost feel him reaching out of the grave to tug one into his spell. It takes an effort to remind oneself that this humorous, genial host was also the man who founded the Gestapo and invented the concentration camp.

As to Michael's future Spoiler

Darth Wong wrote: An anti-ship missile is overkill. If a sniper gets a clean shot at his head, he can probably take him out with a single .50cal round. In Satan's case, no sniper ever got into that position, so they used a ridiculously powerful weapon to kill him with absolute certainty.

Angels and daemons are (if you'll forgive the phrase) hellishly difficult to kill. We made it look easy when firing on the rank and file in Armageddon because there's a massive level of overkill built into our systems and the main targets were the warrior daemons who are only one step up from the lowest tier. The Grand Dukes (equivalent to Archangels) took a lot of killing - Asmodeus was blown up with a massive shaped charge and multiple claymores than then repeatedly shot in the head until he stopped moving. Beelzebub was killed by strafing from an A-10 that finished him off with two Mavericks. The progression in physical toughness as one goes up the scale is exponential. Satan needed those massive anti-ship missiles to kill him, he came close to surviving the first.

The reason behind the toughness is a combination of physical resistance and enhanced healing powers; the way to overcome them is to pile on massive damage so fast that the victim doesn't get a chance to recover. That's why daemons were more vulnerable to artillery fire than to bullets from guns, injuries from artillery fire are traumatic in the extreme, huge wounds ripped open by steel fragments, limbs severed, massive blood loss etc.

In plotting terms, the reasoning behind that decision reflected the perception that daemons were invulnerable. To quote Buffy thr Vampire Slayer, that was then, this is now. They are invulnerable to bronze swords and spears plus the kinds of bows that were available then. Even now, they're hard to kill but this time they're up against people who take "hard to kill" as a challenge.

ray245 wrote:

Richard Sharpe wrote:Fair enough. Just a little barely masked national fanboyism, is all.

Edit: Even Singapore? Damn.

It's funny given the fact that many people around the world still thinks that Singapore is a part of Malaysia or some province in China.

Surely you must be joking, since a cursory glance at the general mass media and even the board would imply more people have a better idea about what Singapore (and Thailand) are then Malaysia.

Stuart wrote:Goering is the classic example, when I was researching into the man, one could almost feel him reaching out of the grave to tug one into his spell. It takes an effort to remind oneself that this humorous, genial host was also the man who founded the Gestapo and invented the concentration camp.

John Birmingham did a take on this in his Axis of Time trilogy; the Nazi leadership parts of the story were seen through the eyes of Himmler, who was portrayed fairly unsympathetically. The Soviet leadership aspects used Lavrentiy Beria as a proxy, and we did connect to this men, despite mentions of some of the many evils he had been involved in. At the end of the day it boiled down to this: Himmler did not fear for his life from Hitler. Beria was constantly on the verge of shitting himself.

Baughn wrote:It isn't quite true that we've run out of unexplored EM phenomena.

Unexplored pure-EM phenomena, yes, but there are a few interesting combinations that have yet to be fully understood. For example, it appears that superconductors can act to couple EM and the gravitational field, by [magic]nonlocal entangled electrons not reacting the same way towards gravitational waves as the conductor itself[/magic]. No, I don't really understand it.

I'm sorry. I spoke carelessly. To restate my position more clearly:

Pure EM is completely understood. It's only when you introduce subtle atomic-scale quantum mechanical effects and such that we might not understand what's going on. It's not that there are no unexplored EM phenomena, and I shouldn't have said that. It's that there are no areas where we look at an EM phenomenon and find it telling us that our basic-level idea of how electromagnetism works is wrong. If we fail to explain something in modern physics, it is always for reasons other than "we don't understand EM fields well enough yet."

There are other things we don't understand, certainly; classical EM just isn't one of them. But demonic tridents are large enough and made of materials 'conventional' enough that by all rights, they should fall firmly into the realm of classical electromagnetism. There's nothing about a big electrically charged hunk of metal that can't be tackled using nineteenth century physics that has been very thoroughly checked.

So if the tridents work at all, it's because they're violating what someone like Maxwell or Faraday would call the laws of physics. Which is weird.
________

EdBecerra wrote:

Peptuck wrote:While the demons in Hell followed Satan out of fear, the angels seem to follow Yaweh out of honest devotion and belief.

Translation: "Durr... boy, we iz stupid angel-peoples. We'ze believe wif'out no proof."

Of course, they haven't had much chance to learn differently, have they?

I know that sneering at religious devotion is a popular pastime in certain circles, but I have to point something out. There really is a major difference, not just in degree but in kind, between faith and stupidity. It's possible and even easy to superimpose the two so that they overlap and reinforce each other, but it's also possible to have one without the other.

On the one hand, there are some very stupid people who trust no one and nothing. In my admittedly limited experience, it's practically impossible to explain anything to them because they won't take your word for it and they won't understand the evidence even when you wave it under their nose. Lacking both faith and intelligence can make someone incredibly annoying.

On the other, there are some intelligent people who build their entire lives around axiomatic assumptions about reality that can only be described as "faith." Consider Isaac Newton and his extensive research into esoteric theology and alchemy. He was routinely operating in realms we would call rank superstition, realms where no proof was available or even possible. But if Sir Isaac Newton was thinking "Durr... I is stupid alchemist-person," then I doubt if there has ever been an intelligent man walking the face of the Earth.

And people like Abu Hamid al-Ghazali would not have been such dangerous foes of scientific rationalism were they not very clever people capable of making equally clever arguments, and putting them in persuasive forms that convince even the most literate and educated members of society.

It may be comforting for the skeptic to tell himself that all the faithful are idiots. It's certainly comforting to think that anyone with a competent mind will support the skeptic's cause, the historical record doesn't offer much support for that belief.

The fact that people can be willfully foolish or irrational about certain things does not mean they are not being foolish or irrational.

Your line of argument reminds me of people who react to statements like "smoking is stupid" by pointing out that some otherwise intelligent people engage in the practice. That may be true, but it does not change the fact that smoking itself is stupid. It is, in fact, something rather akin to an Appeal to Authority, in which it is believed that something cannot possibly be stupid if <insert respected name here> engaged in it.

Also keep in mind that "mentally competent" means something rather different today than it did 300 years ago. We know so much more today, there is so much less excuse to believe certain things.

Note: I do, however, grant that those faithful who honestly acknowledge that they are being irrational would not be stupid, because they understand what they are doing. However, it's quite reasonable to say that every person who thinks his faith is logical is either stupid or delusional. I would also add that people who say things like "there is more to the universe than your man-made logic" are also stupid and/or delusional, because instead of understanding that their faith fails to meet a certain standard, they think logic itself fails to meet a certain standard.

AniThyng wrote:

ray245 wrote:

Richard Sharpe wrote:Fair enough. Just a little barely masked national fanboyism, is all.

Edit: Even Singapore? Damn.

It's funny given the fact that many people around the world still thinks that Singapore is a part of Malaysia or some province in China.

Surely you must be joking, since a cursory glance at the general mass media and even the board would imply more people have a better idea about what Singapore (and Thailand) are then Malaysia.

You're talking about a minority in any society that has an active interest in geo-politics. The majority of the population won't care about Geo-politics most of the time.

Well, Muhammed Ali didn't modernize Egypt singlehandedly, or even with significant Egyptian participation. He brought in European advisers to train his army, establish manufactures, and provide technical education. Heaven seems to be a lot nicer than Hell, so I'd imagine that headhunting among the more recently dispatched would be a viable strategy if it comes under new management.

The biggest problem for Micheal is even if he seizes power, if he is open with his innovations, the majority of the angels might not accept it and we could have civil war. It depends on how they view God- if their loyalty is built on the idea of his invincibility and the like, than it could be crushed when he dies. Otherwise things will be bloodier.