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Lonestar wrote:
((OOC, Bean, you're assuming that we are starting from scratch, which, as a bunch of folks living an early 21st Century lifestyle, we almost certainly are not. Even were we to assume that there were no existing communication satellites, for countries with AEGIS warships, rocket science ain't exactly rocket science. Also, you note that this is a collaboration between the MESS states, and you haven't complained about other major space programs[Beowulf's] either, or gi-normous AI projects your distinguished OMSK Pact allies take part in. I call Shenanigans!

Peace Out(tm) ))

OOC:We are starting from nothing, remember the OP? Q poofs the world into existence, poofs us onto it, and makes everyone take us for the Supreme Ruler with no questions asked. This planet has no history, no past, it was created from whole cloth so that Q could amuse himself(As he so often does).

Yes countries have AEGIS Warships, but there's only so much that can be applied with hitting a target sixty miles away with a rocket, to putting togther a rocket capable of launching a object into space successfully and putting it in the correct orbit, then there's designing the orbiter itself and getting all the facilities set up for all this.

I've been conservative with my estimates to err on the side of caution, I announced my intents to build up a space program, gave it a few days(3 months "in game") then went ahead with launching my first satellite. Like I said we all start without anything but what we brought with us, a full ready to go launch facility did not come with us, nor the experienced people you need for a space program. Shits going to break, it will be more expensive than projected and accidents will happen. Then their are production issues, prototyping and oh, making sure your science teams are all using metric and not english and metric. Little crap like that which is going to take us all a week or two to get settled before we have dozens if not hundreds of Satellite recon birds in space. //ooc

*Edit That acutal gives Sheppard an advantage over space racersa, as he can count the Anti-Sat rockets under his general military, so could anyone with access to block two rockets and enough cash.

RogueIce wrote:The Shinra Republic, while agreeing in principle with the proposed Law of the Sea and Biological Weapons Ban treaties, has not yet taken an offical stance on acceptence.

((OOC: In light of the fact the conference is not over, you may disregard the above quoted text.))

President Rufus "Ice" Shinra (known by many as RI) will agree in principle to the stipulations of the current framework regarding the Laws of the Sea and the seperate Biological Weapons Ban treaty, pending a review by myself and my staff. However, there is one further matter we would like to address:

We are alarmed by the stated intention of Shepnukistan to declare they control all "airspace" to an infinite point "above" their country. Given that space programs are sought after by many countires, and the fairly crowded nature of our world, such a precedent would lead, in essence, to an outright strangling of all space programs by any world powers. I urgently request that action be taken on this issue, lest all future hope of space exploration be halted before it begins.

Lonestar wrote:Bean, you're assuming that we are starting from scratch, which, as a bunch of folks living an early 21st Century lifestyle, we almost certainly are not.

[@ Lonestar: It is certain that the technological base of our nations is advanced enough and we have industries in the relevant fields; however, any particular space project IMHO starts from zero up. For example, that means you don't enter the game with a hulkin MIR above you and a Shuttle on the launchpad

Costs detailed by Bean are reasonable, you can see the away costs and sat body costs are pretty close to what he says for countries with developed and ongoing space programmes - so even if we pose as such, SATLAUNCH would cost from 60 to 500 million depending on booster and payload types ]

Officially, the Red Techocracy would like to know more about the M.E.S.S. Space Agency - what is it's budget, stated function? Are there any oversight commitees or possible observer state status?

If there is, we would like to enter such status in accordance with earlier agreements such as the free right to inspection. We would call on one of our trusted allies in O.M.S.K. or our ally Shroomania to accompany us on this venture.

RogueIce wrote:We are alarmed by the stated intention of Shepnukistan to declare they control all "airspace" to an infinite point "above" their country.

Outright exaggeration. Shepnukistan's position is the same policy put forth by Greater Saddamistan; so it's not like we're doing it all by ourselves.

I urgently request that action be taken on this issue, lest all future hope of space exploration be halted before it begins.

This happened in @; so you know.

Teh USSR tried the "our airspace extends to infinity plus one!" tack in regards to Sattelites but when it came to putting it into practical practice later on, when SPUTNUK passed over teh US, we did not raise a protest, thus formally codifying the right of passage of sattellites, and enabling their legal use as spy platforms.

The Republic of Shepnukistan sees otherwise from @ US.

MKSheppard wrote:

RogueIce wrote:We are alarmed by the stated intention of Shepnukistan to declare they control all "airspace" to an infinite point "above" their country.

Outright exaggeration. Shepnukistan's position is the same policy put forth by Greater Saddamistan; so it's not like we're doing it all by ourselves.

((OOC: I know. But Sea Skimmer kinda dropped off the face of our figurative earth. You, on the other hand, are still here. ))

This happened in @; so you know.

Teh USSR tried the "our airspace extends to infinity plus one!" tack in regards to Sattelites but when it came to putting it into practical practice later on, when SPUTNUK passed over teh US, we did not raise a protest, thus formally codifying the right of passage of sattellites, and enabling their legal use as spy platforms.

The Republic of Shepnukistan sees otherwise from @ US.

This is why, of course, we are calling for international consensus on this. If you're going to do that, then when everyone else starts to follow suit, we are going to have a very crowded and jumbled "space" up there. We of the Shinra Republic would prefer not to see that happen, as we feel that space travel and exploration should be a part of the greater international community, rather than the seperate power blocs going their own way and shooting down any wayward satellites and/or spacecraft.

So do we need a Treaty on Space already?

So far there is:
1 MESS sat
2 GLADOS sats
Orbital GPS sat group (U.K.B.)
no other permanently residing LEO objects, classified or other, detected so far.

What should the Space Treaty recognize - the free right to use space for exploration by any nation? Orbital cutting line to airspace establihing?

Stas Bush wrote:So do we need a Treaty on Space already?

Would you rather we figure it out after we've been shooting down peoples satellites and risking a World War?

What should the Space Treaty recognize - the free right to use space for exploration by any nation?

I feel this would be suffecient for now, yes. I would also propose we go with a "No Weapons in Space" rule, as this would give a far, far greater threat to the smaller nations of the world, who would have no hope of ever competing, than even nuclear weapons. Thus forcing them to align themselves with the larger power blocs and making the global situation even more precarious than it already is.

Stas Bush wrote:Orbital cutting line to airspace establihing?

The RoS is in favor of such a proposal. We must consult with our experts; we shall have an answer back to you in a little bit

RogueIce wrote:

Stas Bush wrote:So do we need a Treaty on Space already?

Would you rather we figure it out after we've been shooting down peoples satellites and risking a World War?

What should the Space Treaty recognize - the free right to use space for exploration by any nation?

I feel this would be suffecient for now, yes. I would also propose we go with a "No Weapons in Space" rule, as this would give a far, far greater threat to the smaller nations of the world, who would have no hope of ever competing, than even nuclear weapons. Thus forcing them to align themselves with the larger power blocs and making the global situation even more precarious than it already is.

damn I wanted to drop some DU darts....

RogueIce wrote:I would also propose we go with a "No Weapons in Space" rule

Au contraire the rapid development of ABM, nuclear weaponry and mobilization of large Navies with strong Naval Aviation branches is threatening smaller nations to the extent where they could feel that space weaponization could be the only way to protect them.

How would you ban space weaponization anyway? Payloads are launched month to month by powers that are economically strong enough to field a space industry and a stable booster rocket. You suggest we examine every nation and every payload?

How would you do that? There's no UN. How would you examine Saddamistan's payloads, for example? They're pretty isolationist.

Stas Bush wrote:So do we need a Treaty on Space already?

So far there is:
1 MESS sat
2 GLADOS sats
Orbital GPS sat group (U.K.B.)
no other permanently residing LEO objects, classified or other, detected so far.

What should the Space Treaty recognize - the free right to use space for exploration by any nation? Orbital cutting line to airspace establihing?

A quick note, it is the devote hope that by the end of this year UKB satellite technology will have advanced to the point where we can cheaply offer second or even third party countries the option to send up existing science and communication packages on existing UKB satellites. Much how the ISS is modular UKB satellites are designed with after-production add on's in mind. It makes every satellite housing custom but the cost is countered up front by the fee's the country pays in order to get a satellite into space to begin with.

That's of course a year or more down the road(Read a week and a half from now real-time)

That's all from the UKB this evening.

Stas Bush wrote:

RogueIce wrote:I would also propose we go with a "No Weapons in Space" rule

Au contraire the rapid development of ABM, nuclear weaponry and mobilization of large Navies with strong Naval Aviation branches is threatening smaller nations to the extent where they could feel that space weaponization could be the only way to protect them.

How would you ban space weaponization anyway? Payloads are launched month to month by powers that are economically strong enough to field a space industry and a stable booster rocket. You suggest we examine every nation?

How would you do that? There's no UN. How would you examine Saddamistan's payloads, for example? They're pretty isolationist.

I acknowledge the point. Space weaponization is the same as anything else, really: if the country has the resources to do it, they will, and there's little anyone can do about it short of war (such is the reality of international diplomacy). However, I should hope it goes without saying that the use of any space-based weaponry against surface targets would count as an attack by a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Especially given the power such weapons can potentially have.

RogueIce wrote:

Stas Bush wrote:So do we need a Treaty on Space already?

Would you rather we figure it out after we've been shooting down peoples satellites and risking a World War?

What should the Space Treaty recognize - the free right to use space for exploration by any nation?

I feel this would be suffecient for now, yes. I would also propose we go with a "No Weapons in Space" rule, as this would give a far, far greater threat to the smaller nations of the world, who would have no hope of ever competing, than even nuclear weapons. Thus forcing them to align themselves with the larger power blocs and making the global situation even more precarious than it already is.

No weapons is a fine rule, but what are the penalties for those found with them? In addition, what about research into space travel that might be used for such things as a side-effect.

In other news, The University of Willy-ville in The Archives has announced a breakthrough in Heat resistant polymers, and wishes to expand the program as a joint effort to further develop heat resistant ceramic materials for use in Space-craft. (And Tanks. and UNderground lava-tanks. Eventually).
We Wish to establish a joint research program with each nation sharing the benefits equally. The government of the Neverhood proposes that each participant contribute 6 Billion USD a year, due to this being the first project of its type. The Government of the Neverhood will offer the land and testing grounds for free, on the northern slopes of Lake Everhood, near the perfume factory .

Space weaponization is the same as anything else, really

It's the same as any other military branch (just rapidly expanding costs and expensive everything). But it's not like bioweapons, which have been banned. Bioweapon accidental leak or deliberate attack could destroy all the world given the volatile nature of bioweapons and the close territorial proximity. Space weapons are just weapons and allow for targeting, even if they are very powerful type of weaponry.

Use of spaceborne missile payloads against New Earth should constitute a WMD act? Maybe we constrain that to VAC and nuclear payloads, because else even a pinpoint anti-terrorist strike from space into, say, Syndromia or Libertopia, would be a WMD act and stir up the community.

Stas Bush wrote:Use of spaceborne missile payloads against New Earth should constitute a WMD act? Maybe we constrain that to VAC and nuclear payloads, because else even a pinpoint anti-terrorist strike from space into, say, Syndromia or Libertopia, would be a WMD act and stir up the community.

Certainly some standards would have to be set. If something is pinpoint and relatively collateral-free, that is one thing (though no less an act of war). But sending down nukes from space or hurling asteroids at your enemies such certainly qualify, I'd think.

The Prime Minister of Shroomania has the following to announce:

He congratulates his allies in the Allied Peacekeeping Committee of Syndromia for the timely initiation of OPERATION VANAHEIM HAMMERTIME (:D), the operation's success, and the unorthodox methods used by the Vanaheim and Republican forces in defeating the enemy - Mushroom Military observers have been impressed by the covert commando raiding operation and have been keenly taking down notes.

In light of the recent string of successful operations in Syndromia, the Mushroom Military has informed the Prime Minister that insurgent activity has decreased by a significant percentage due to the weakening of the insurgent infrastructure and due to the systematic elimination of guerrilla leaders - ex-Syndromian military officers, information on whom was provided for by the exiled King Tithonous.

The Syndromian insurgency is believed to have been incited not by popular uprising, but by holdovers from the defeated Syndromian military - with limited support from outside Syndromia, from certain organized crime syndicates as well as terroristic elements of the Voluntaryist Libertopia.

It is believed that Syndromia will be much closer to peace when these paramilitary groups are finally defeated.



As for certain other international issues, the Prime Minister touches on the issue of the MESS' deployment of satellites over FUNGAL AXIS nations, stating that while the space above the (New) Earth is free for all mankind to develop and explore, it cautions that all space-faring nations must show respect to their neighbors to avoid misconstrued misunderstandings, mishaps, and misinterpretation of actions - which is ever likely, due to the fragile relationship between the MESS and the O.M.S.K. Pact. Certainly, undertaking overflights with empty launch vehicles that are in clear violation of another nation's sovereign territory is not conducive to the diffusing of tensions.

Beowulf wrote:With the successful test launches of the Prometheus Air Launched Rocket, the government has directed the full scale production of launch vehicles. The government also announced a successful overflight of Shepnukistan with an empty Prometheus launch vehicle.

The Prime Minister expresses concern and cautions the MESS, lest it further offends the sensibilities of other nations such as Shepnukistan.

A clash of giants is not what the world needs right now, and would not do well for the future of Shroomania or the smaller nations under its patronage in the FUNGAL AXIS.




The Sovereign Shroomanian Sentinel
EQUINE ECONOMY! (okay, now you're pushing it, you alliterative journos!)


Surfboarding Santa - mutual trade in the FUNGAL AXIS sees nations trading products with one another, such as cheap toys.

Shroomanian economists have stated that the economies of FUNGAL AXIS constituents are doing well, and despite commitments to resource-intensive initiatives like the pacification of Syndromia or the construction of the railgun ABM, Shroomania is benefiting from the prosperity of her allies.

Shroomania is seeking to develop a cohesive international air transport system to link all the nations of the world. This would shed us all of our reliance on shipping while simultaneously facilitating a cross-pollination of culture and peoples, improving communications and international understanding.

Shroomanian corporations have expressed interest in producing Bear Republic-developed airship technology.



In other news, the Prime Minister is pleased to announce that despite certain setbacks, the joint Robotic Fishing Vessel initiative with the Sovereign Duchy of Baerne has been successful. The Shroomanian robot fish-killing machine prototype has already netted and gutted considerable metric tonnages of aquatic creatures.

Nevertheless, Shroomania stands by Baerne and swears to get to the bottom of the sinking of the Duchy's Automated Commerce Vessel.

Payloads used from space that are proposed to be WMDs and listed as such: nuclear devices, MOAB type vacuum bombs, area-effect chemical toxins and of course - forbid science - biological payloads, small spatial bodies (asteroids and the like

We're a long way to asteroids being a concern though. If New Earth system is similar to our system, asteroids are far from all New Earth orbits and to make a weapon out of them, it would took incredibly long space missions, very advanced space sector with acting orbital facilities and many years.

The Republic of Shepnukistan proposes that altitudes from sea level to 15,000 miles (24,140 km) be considered sovereign airspace of that nation. Above this altitude; it is international space. Because Medium Earth Orbits are in a space of 1,240 to 22,240 miles and Geoschyrnous orbits begin at 22,300 miles....this proposal would not affect peaceful uses of space at all.

The Supreme Council of the Red Techocracy immediately upholds the proposal of ally nation and raises it up as topic for other conference attendees.

15,000 miles (24,140 km) height is airspace.

This will not affect GEO sats and peaceful uses.

Objection! It's impossible to go from ground to GEO without passing through Low Earth Orbit first, without the use of a space elevator. The proposal effectively bans the usage of space.

We've also effectively stopped space station development.

It just says that you can't go LEO above other nations, but you can go LEO over your own territory or the territory of others who allow you. So you can go from ground to GEO... just not over the sovereign territories of Shepnukistan or other non-MESS members

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It just says that you can't go LEO above other nations, but you can go LEO over your own territory or the territory of others who allow you. So you can go from ground to GEO... just not over the sovereign territories of Shepnukistan or other non-MESS members

There's no way you can do that efficiently.

Beowulf wrote:Objection! It's impossible to go from ground to GEO without passing through Low Earth Orbit first, without the use of a space elevator. The proposal effectively bans the usage of space.

Lies. You can go from ground to GEO via your own airspace.

Which brings up an interesting point. Shepnukistan is now considering selling space access to small nations via commercial payloads to be lofted into orbit from a Cosmodrome within Shepnukistan territory.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It just says that you can't go LEO above other nations, but you can go LEO over your own territory or the territory of others who allow you. So you can go from ground to GEO... just not over the sovereign territories of Shepnukistan or other non-MESS members

Congrats. You're clarification makes no difference. You can't put enough delta-V on a rocket to be able to do what you're proposing.