Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[Sea Skimmer]

Better yet, if they really wanted to get aid into Gaza, file a regular plan for a freighter carrying cargo to the port of Ashdod and then do the above.

Crash landing a plane on the beach, which would be the only option, is a little different then beaching a ship. Israel plowed up the only runway in the Gaza strip for a reason. In any case, the Israelis do not normally allow civilian planes into Israeli airbase which are not Israeli owned, so you'd just never get permission and any other flight would be shot down.

[Coyote]

Actually that is a lot worse than the military simply being incompetent. It's why I asked if Ziggy wanted to say that the Israeli civilian leadership micromanaged the war, like George the Dimmer and Darth Cheney did; at that point it becomes reflective of the voter base (a much larger population than simply the military)

That is the thing that is being pointed out: failure to achieve objectives can at times be as much a political failure rather than one of tactics or strategies on the ground, or leadership and training quality. The German Army in WW2 was competent, but they lost the war due to political failures Like stupid orders to hold ground at all costs, for example). The American army in Vietnam was competent but the whole war was a political bungle from the start. The Russians were the same in Afghanistan.

The Israeli incursion into Lebanon was very politically managed, so of course it was ham-handed. And saying that an army is incompetent because it cannot beat a guerrilla army is problematic, because almost every standing, conventional army from the Romans to modern day has had trouble with guerrillas. Oddly enough, the army that (in recent times) has had the best track run with guerrilla wars was the British army in places like Malaysia and the Jebel Plain in Oman. But again, that was because they used political initiatives along with military ones.

That's the problem of Democracy, when the government fucks up, the people are ultimately responsible for voting them into office.

And that holds true with Gaza electing an openly pro-war party to office even after the enemy met the stated goals for peace (the 1967 borders) at least WRT Gaza itself. Again, Gaza pursuing an unnecessary war to deflect from domestic problems is very W. Bush.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes, it does. Since your officers are a part of those arms and are supposed to be trained on how to properly lead their men and prosecute a war, if they do not then they and their former officers are at fault. Unless of course you want to say the war was micromanaged by the civilian leadership?

We weren't talking about micromanagement. Stop trying to move the goalposts. You yourself said they were given unreasonable goals. Who do you think came up with those goals? Like it or not, the Lebanon war was a political decision, made by the civilian government.

[Elfdart]

Yup.
They can also bring the supplies to the dock, have it inspected and then taken to Gaza via land transport (as was offered to the original flotilla by the Israeli government in advance, in addition to this one).
But where's the publicity in that?

If they trusted Israel's word that humanitarian aid would get through, but only an imbecile would do that now that the cat is out of the bag. By now, just about everyone knows that this blockade is meant to use food as a weapon against the civilians in Gaza.

And that holds true with Gaza electing an openly pro-war party to office even after the enemy met the stated goals for peace (the 1967 borders) at least WRT Gaza itself. Again, Gaza pursuing an unnecessary war to deflect from domestic problems is very W. Bush.

They elected Hamas because the alternative was Fatah. When Fatah showed their true Quisling nature beyond any doubt, Hamas couldn't lose if they tried.

[Simon_Jester]

I've been doing some flipping around; and the current Turkish PM; Erdogan, has been trying to tilt Turkey away from the West/Israel since he took power.

Yes. That doesn't mean he's wrong, though. Turkey has tried to integrate into Europe for some time, with limited success; the EU isn't letting them in any time soon. The USSR is gone, and the Turks have less to worry about from Russia than they used to. Why exactly is it in Turkey's interest to earn the approval of the West, especially if that means taking a humiliating stance on Israel that is unpopular with the general Turkish public?

Clearly, what Israel can do if this escalates a bit further is to recognize the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) as a legimitate government (hey, they recognize PLO even though it has no power), and begin supporting it. Because after all, the PKK are "Kurds in resistance to the Turkish occupiers, fighting for their own land." to borrow a phrase from Erdogan.

That would be fair.

Yes, it does. Since your officers are a part of those arms and are supposed to be trained on how to properly lead their men and prosecute a war, if they do not then they and their former officers are at fault. Unless of course you want to say the war was micromanaged by the civilian leadership?

Schatten, your argument boils down to:

-Israeli senior officers plan wars badly.
-The Israeli navy and air force screw up a lot, citing examples that happened forty years ago.
-Therefore, Israeli commando units are bad at Close Quarters Battle and do not have advanced training.

That strikes me as poorly reasoned.

So you mean 'murder civilians and then manufacture a quickly dismissed lie about weapons'?

They could kill much more than 9 if it was the intention, you know.

True. On the other hand, they could also have just shot a few of the mouthy, annoying (but unarmed) ones out of hand to intimidate the others, then made up a lie about weapons.

Some freighters can get up that fast, though I grant not the beat up hulks they're usually buying because they can't afford anything more. Was thinking more in terms of an effort bankrolled by the Turkish government to run the blockade.

That would be prohibitively expensive- each freighter makes a one way trip. If they Turks wanted to truly break the blockade they'd probably have to shoot their way in. Otherwise it would just be a high-profile and very expensive propaganda stunt, albeit one that makes the Turks look impressive.

[CJvR]

They elected Hamas because the alternative was Fatah.

It hardly matters why they elected Hamas, as with any party you get the entire package - including war.

[Vanzetti]

One would also think snake-eaters would be better trained in when to use fast-roping than the average soldier. They quite clearly were not.

Soldiers don`t decide when and where to fast-rope, they follow orders.

Which means some idiot in their chain of command told them to fast rope into a crowd where you can't secure your drop zone.

That is certaintly true.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Schatten, your argument boils down to:

-Israeli senior officers plan wars badly.
-The Israeli navy and air force screw up a lot, citing examples that happened forty years ago.
-Therefore, Israeli commando units are bad at Close Quarters Battle and do not have advanced training.

That strikes me as poorly reasoned.

If Israel senior officers plan wars badly the military has not properly prepared them to lead, I cited one example for the Air Force that occurred forty years ago and one that indicates standards of behavior have not improved, the one for the Navy occurred only four years ago, and the COs of SF teams tend to be SF themselves.

[eyl]

The fault for the disastrous boarding falls to whoever decided to use a single chopper and not drop some CS, flashbangs or hose the deck down with a firehose from the ship. That should be somewhere above the Commando's pay grade.

Given the "population density" on the ship, wouldn't that have also caused significant casualties?

True. On the other hand, they could also have just shot a few of the mouthy, annoying (but unarmed) ones out of hand to intimidate the others, then made up a lie about weapons.

Given, however, that there were armed people on board (unless you think the hospitalized soldiers stabbed themselves), why bother looking for unarmed ones?

[Aaron]

Given the "population density" on the ship, wouldn't that have also caused significant casualties?

CS gas is only deadly if it displaces all the air, it should be fine to use on the deck of a ship. Flashbangs don't kill, or seriously wound (unless your literally standing on top of them) and using a fire hose to keep people back isn't going to seriously injure folks unless you hose them off the deck and into the ocean (or slam them into a bulkhead).

Even with the chance of injuries, it's still better then what actually happened. Of course, if they had done any of that, they'd just be slammed for it anyways, thanks to the culture of "any harm is EVIL!!!"

[eyl]

Some freighters can get up that fast, though I grant not the beat up hulks they're usually buying because they can't afford anything more. Was thinking more in terms of an effort bankrolled by the Turkish government to run the blockade. Also, docking in Israel means concrete will be seized; and it would be just as much publicity, I think, to ground a freighter on the Gaza coast successfully. And it took the Israelis some time to secure the Turkish liner. Anyway, the point is that for a blockade to be legally binding it has to be effective, and ultimately if they keep just running blockade runners onto the coast again and again it would humiliate Israel, render the blockade ineffective, and be essentially guaranteed to bring it to an end. The more casualties and ships sunk in the process the better (I mean we all know the IHH people were gunning to be martyrs, so getting killed is an understood risk of these people).

Of course, the fact that there wasn't a more sophisticated attempt like that does tend to suggest, conversely, that the effort was not bankrolled by the Turkish government to humiliate Israel like some Israel supporters have claimed. Which is the greatest use of the thought exercise.

That would depend on what the Turks' goal ultimately was, wouldn't it?

If their main concern is getting supplies to Gaza, your suggestion might be viable (though others have pointed out the practical difficulties). OTOH, if their aim is to make a political attack on Israel (and note that Erdogan has been repeatedly attacking Israel in public forums for at least the last year or so - for instance, the ambassador incident, while grossly stupid on Lieberman's/Ayalon's part, didn't come out of the blue), for example for greater "cred" in the MidEast, the way things turned out probably couldn't have been better if they'd been planned that way.

[eyl]

Given the "population density" on the ship, wouldn't that have also caused significant casualties?

CS gas is only deadly if it displaces all the air, it should be fine to use on the deck of a ship. Flashbangs don't kill, or seriously wound (unless your literally standing on top of them) and using a fire hose to keep people back isn't going to seriously injure folks unless you hose them off the deck and into the ocean (or slam them into a bulkhead).

I wasn't thnking of CS' direct effects so much as the consequences of starting a stamepede on a packed ship. Also, while I don't know the relative heights of the vessels in question, I was under the impression that the Turkish ship was considerably taller than the Israeli ones, hence the need for a helicopter line in the first place, which would hamper or prevent the use of firehoses.

Even with the chance of injuries, it's still better then what actually happened. Of course, if they had done any of that, they'd just be slammed for it anyways, thanks to the culture of "any harm is EVIL!!!"

Agreed

[MagnusTheReD]

If Israel senior officers plan wars badly the military has not properly prepared them to lead,

The key word here is the IF - IF the Israeli senior officers plan wars badly...
When have this ever happened?

Surely not in Lebanon 2006 (because that's what you meant, no doubt), because that war was the initiative of the Israeli political ranks from start to finish.
The IDF senior ranks had no single, coherent plan for the operation, for the simple reason that the political ranks never presented them with a single, coherent objective for that war - no one really knew what that operation was supposed to achieve, aside of the "IDF stomping all over the place, something something something, Hezbollah defeated" - kind of plans...

As for the claims that the IDF ground forces are significantly less capable than their western counterparts, and only marginally better than the surrounding Arab forces - that part clearly originated in your anal cavity...
Just look at Cast Lead - that operation was planned was handled by senior officers, not by politicians, and guess what - from a purely military standpoint, it went spectacularly well!

I cited one example for the Air Force that occurred forty years ago and one that indicates standards of behavior have not improved,

Yes, two completely unrelated examples - one was an accidental (or deliberate) identification of a neutral ship for an enemy one, and the following attempt to sink it.

The other was a correct identification of a ship as being neutral, and the following, unexplainable belligerence for an unknown reason, but NO attempts to sink it, or even hit it.

How is any of the above supposed to indicate a lack of ability and/or professionalism on the part of the IAF is beyond me.
Particularly in light of all the secretive, high-profile ops (many of which occur under heavy SAM presence) they pull off on a regular basis...

the one for the Navy occurred only four years ago,

The reason cited behind the deactivation of the air defense radars was that there was heavy IAF activity nearby, and intel never reported about the presence of anti-ship weapons of any kind.

It was an unforgivable breach of protocol, clearly, but at least I can understand why this happened...

and the COs of SF teams tend to be SF themselves.

AND?
How is that supposed to indicate a lack of proper training in CQB? How is that even related?

The fuck-up of this operation is the fault of the intelligence, not the commandos - they rappelled down the way they did because they never anticipated any resistance. Would they know that they're to drop straight in the middle of a lynch mob waiting specifically for them, surely they would have used more appropriate tactics.

But they didn't anticipate that - that's the fault of the AMAN (IDF's Intel Corps) for not checking the situation properly. The professionalism of the Israeli naval commandos has nothing to do with it.

[Pelranius]

[
As for the claims that the IDF ground forces are significantly less capable than their western counterparts, and only marginally better than the surrounding Arab forces - that part clearly originated in your anal cavity...
Just look at Cast Lead - that operation was planned was handled by senior officers, not by politicians, and guess what - from a purely military standpoint, it went spectacularly well!

Here's a little bit from the history forum. I took the liberty of citing Stuart's post on the Israeli military (I just hope the Targeteer doesn't send a UAV to my home ). As a defense professional, he knows a lot more than either one of us.

Although preventing Israel from expanding into the West Bank and the Sinai would've spared everyone a lot of trouble (Israel wouldn't have had to deal with Palestinian refugees, or terrorists attacking Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and may be spared the Yom Kippur War), it's hard to imagine a US attack on Israel being anything other than a clusterfuck that'll make Operation Iraqi Freedom look like Operation Urgent Fury (Grenada).

There's no news here; the U.S. has contingency plans for attacking everybody (and so does everybody else) so its not remarkable that they have one for attacking Israel. That plan gets dusted off and updated every so often; it doesn't mean there's a serious intent to use it, its just nice and comforting to have.

As to the result of a 1967 attack on Israel, I'm not as pessimistic as you are. The important thing to note is that the Israelis really aren't very good (then or now); their image of military prowess is entirely due to the fact their opponents have ranged from the imbecilic to the abysmal. Then (as now), the Israelis had a first-class air force, a third-rate army and a Navy that makes McHale's Navy look like the height of competence (in fact, McHale's Navy makes a good template for the Israeli Navy - think of a Navy whose senior ranks consist entirely of Captain Binghamptons whil their junior officers are all Ensign Parkers while the enlisted personnel are all Grubers with not a McHale in sight and you get the picture). The Med fleet in those days was quite powerful so it wouldn't have been such a route to disaster as you think.

Here's the complete threat "US had Emergency plan for attacking Israel in 1976". http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... it=Israeli
I don't think I'm taking anything out of context.

Once again, I crave Stuart and Sidewinder's pardon for my liberty in bringing up their posts.

[MagnusTheReD]

snip...

Yes, I'm familiar with Stuart's opinion about the IDF, but as I'm not a professional as him, I'm in no position to either challenge or criticize it.
With that said, however, I am a citizen of this shithole, and do have some insight into this issue that most people don't.

All I did was to look at the history of the recent conflicts and operations around the world, and I saw that when the IDF handles the operations without the "help" of the political ranks, it's success rates are no lower than that of other western forces in similar situations...

[Simon_Jester]

If Israel senior officers plan wars badly the military has not properly prepared them to lead, I cited one example for the Air Force that occurred forty years ago and one that indicates standards of behavior have not improved, the one for the Navy occurred only four years ago, and the COs of SF teams tend to be SF themselves.

But how does this add up to the Israelis being bad at CQB on the tactical level?

If you were making a general conclusion "the Israeli military is not tactically up to Western standards," I'd have no argument. But saying they're bad at CQB because they have lots of friendly fire incidents and nepotism in the officer corps doesn't seem to follow, not to me. It's like saying their rifle marksmanship is poor. It might be true, but I don't see how you can assume it just by knowing that they have major problems with inferior senior officers.

[CJvR]

...since things have been cooling down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

Captain Stabbing and his crew, remix of "We are the world".
Someone in the Israeli goverment thought it was funny enough to dump into the official channels even.

[Ace Pace]

...since things have been cooling down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

Captain Stabbing and his crew, remix of "We are the world".
Someone in the Israeli goverment thought it was funny enough to dump into the official channels even.

Amusing, considering Latma, the makers of this flick, is a news satire website.

[Companion Cube]

There've apparently been some significant Israeli protests against the flotilla raid.

Leftist and rightist demonstrators clashed Saturday night in Tel Aviv as more than 6,000 Israelis gathered to protest the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship earlier this week, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed.

The protest was originally planned by to mark the anniversary of the Six Day War which broke out 43 years ago today. Among the organizers were left wing parties Meretz, Hadash and Peace Now organization. The demonstrators carried banners saying "The government is drowning us all," "We must stride for peace," and "A right wing government = clear and immediate danger to state security."

And from an Israeli blog:

(Wake up, blind America) 10,000 protest flotilla attack in Israel

by Philip Weiss on June 6, 2010 · 1 comment

Uri Avnery has circulated the following "web report" (by whom I don't know, maybe Gush Shalom) on his narrow escape yesterday. (Max Blumenthal has reporting on the rally here, Noam Sheizaf here)

A disaster was averted yesterday (June 5) at Tel-Aviv’s Museum Square, when rightists threw a smoke grenade into the middle of the protest rally, obviously hoping for a panic to break out and cause the protesters to trample on each other. But the demonstrators remained calm, nobody started to run and just a small space in the middle of the crowd remained empty. The speaker did not stop talking even when the cloud of smoke reached the stage. The audience included many children.

Half an hour later, a dozen rightist thugs attacked Gush Shalom’s 86 year old Uri Avnery, when he was on his way from the rally in the company of his wife, Rachel, Adam Keller and his wife Beate Siversmidt. Avnery had just entered a taxi, when a dozen rightist thugs attacked him and tried to drag him out of the car. At the critical moment, the police arrived and made it possible for the car to leave. Gush spokesman Adam Keller said: “These cowards did not dare to attack us when we were many, but they were heroes when they caught Avnery alone.”

The incident took place when the more than 10 thousand demonstrators were dispersing, after marching through the streets of Tel Aviv in protest against the attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

Not only was this one of the largest peace demonstrations for a long time, but also the first time that all parts of the Israeli peace camp - from Gush Shalom and Hadash to Peace Now and Meretz – did unite for common action

The main slogan was “The Government Is Drowning All of Us” and “We must Row towards Peace!” - alluding to the attack on the flotilla. The protesters called in unison “Jews and Arabs Refuse to be Enemies!”

The demonstrators assembled at Rabin Square and marched to Museum Square, where the protest rally was held. Originally, this was planned as a demonstration against the occupation on its 43th anniversary, and for peace based on “Two States for Two Peoples” and “Jerusalem – Capital of the Two States”, but recent events turned it mainly into a protest against the attack on the flotilla.

One of the new sights was the great number of national flags, which were flown alongside the red flags of Hadash, the green flags of Meretz and the two-flag emblems of Gush Shalom. Many peace activists have decided that the national flag should no longer be left to the rightists.

“The violence of the rightists is a direct result of the brainwashing, which has been going on throughout the last week,” Avnery commented. “A huge propaganda machine has incited the public in order to cover up the terrible mistakes made by our political and military leadership, mistakes which are becoming worse from day to day.”

[Einzige]

I find the use of 'right' and 'left' in this situation quite questionable as it related to those articles you've posted, Companion Cube.

[Companion Cube]

I find the use of 'right' and 'left' in this situation quite questionable as it related to those articles you've posted, Companion Cube.

Why is that? I don't see anything surprising in their description of pro-government nationalist Israeli protestors as "rightist" and pro-Gaza anti-authoritarian Israelis as "leftist". I'd assume that both the Haaretz story and the blog are written for domestic consumption, so I'd expect them to use short-hand that their audience understands.

[Einzige]

I find the use of 'right' and 'left' in this situation quite questionable as it related to those articles you've posted, Companion Cube.

Why is that? I don't see anything surprising in their description of pro-government nationalist Israeli protestors as "rightist" and pro-Gaza anti-authoritarian Israelis as "leftist". I'd assume that both the Haaretz story and the blog are written for domestic consumption, so I'd expect them to use short-hand that their audience understands.

Sure, I agree. Just personal preference, I suppose. What these nationalists are are authoritarians, point-blank.

[Companion Cube]

Personal preference, in that you consider yourself right-wing and don't want to be lumped in with violent nationalist authoritarians? Fair enough.

The Turkish NGO IHH has released photos taken by passengers on the Mavi Marmara:

An injured Israeli commando is shown lying prostrate beneath a flight of steps. His uniform is splattered with blood and he appears to have been dealt a blow to his nose. Bleeding from one hand, the soldier uses his other to fend off the attentions of an activist with the other.

It is one of the most striking images yet to emerge from the Mavi Marmara during last week's bungled Israeli raid on the aid ship, which killed nine of the pro-Palestinian activists on board.

Yet this photograph, and eight others like it, was released not by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) but by members of the controversial Turkish charity accused of orchestrating the violent resistance to Israel's raid.

Although it has now turned the images into a propaganda coup, Israel actually tried to delete the photographs after discovering them on the camera of one of the activists it detained on board the Mavi Marmara.

Attracting accusations of attempting to cover up what really happened during the raid, Israeli forces confiscated video footage, audio recordings and photographs from activists and journalists it detained after the raid.

But in this instance, they failed. The activist who took the photographs was a member of IHH, the Turkish group linked to Islamic extremists that was at the centre of the raid. IHH said it managed to restore the images thanks to "superior Turkish technology" and they were duly published by Hurriyet, Turkey's largest circulation newspaper.

The group apparently thought the photographs would embarrass Israel and show how their activists ministered to wounded Israeli soldiers even as their colleagues lay dying.

But the IDF has welcomed the publication of the pictures, saying they were "clear and unequivocal proof" that the activists "intended to kill Israeli soldiers".

Here's the IHH link with the full set of pictures: photos from the Mavi Marmara, of Israeli commandos dragged belowdecks and disarmed.

[Edward Yee]

Fast Roping 101, thanks to Abu Muqawama.

Also, Pelranius... unless "Stuart Slade" is a psuedonym for Don Brennan, I think you don't have to worry about the Targeteer.

Curiously, the supposed Israeli military reaction to the pic (after the fact) makes me wonder if they're still trying to figure out this PR thing, as IHH explicitly had... in contrast, behold [url=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... i-commando]a more hamhanded attempt[/url by one of the other Irish aboard the Mavi Marmara]... well, unless it sounds way less "macho" (in a silly way) in Turkish. The pics the quoted article talks about are at said Telegraph article.

[Simon_Jester]

But the IDF has welcomed the publication of the pictures, saying they were "clear and unequivocal proof" that the activists "intended to kill Israeli soldiers".

If they had intended to kill that soldier, he would be a dead man. He's got a head injury, he's disarmed, he's dazed... if they didn't kill him it's because they had no intention of doing so.