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Alyeska wrote: Your two movies do not pertain to the debate at hand. They are useless.

Worf was fucking aiming at the ferengi, and he's an experienced user of
feddie weapons (he's the FUCKING SECURITY CHIEF).....and yet he
misses with autotargeting?

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote: Your two movies do not pertain to the debate at hand. They are useless.

Worf was fucking aiming at the ferengi, and he's an experienced user of
feddie weapons (he's the FUCKING SECURITY CHIEF).....and yet he
misses with autotargeting?

This debate is about Rifles. The clips show Pistols (sorta). Thus the movies have no value. That and Mike already pointed out yesterday that the Type-2s most likely don't have auto targeting.

But I thought that anything seen on-screen is supposed to be canon? I can SEE the beam is moving independently from the movement of the phaser! So does that mean it's just a really bad and obsolete auto-aiming feature?

OR does it mean that phaser accuracy sucks?

Worf was SUPOSSED to be sweeping the phaser to try and hit the Ferengi, but Michel Dorn didn't do it properly.

...but...but...what about what we SEE??? How can you deny that it isn't moving off on its own? Or is it that his thumb controls it with a thumb hat switch? Are there any photos of the actual prop used? That would clear it up.

NTM: Why isn't he dead? Or is that stun?

Well, I just watched an earlier battle clip in Rocks and Shoals. One of the Starfleet people gives an estimated range of 75 meters to some Jem'Hadar, we see them continue to walk for about 10-20 meters, then it zooms out and as it zooms out you can see the distance they did walk and you notice that comparing the walked distance, they are over 100 meters away when you see the Jem'Hadar. Their size is relatively the same on the screen as when we spot Nog. The range in the pictures I give is clearly more then 40 meters. At 40 meters your a little over 130 feet from people and they do not appear near that small. I did a comparison today with estimated ranges and people were much taller at said range then appears on the screen.

Anyway, there is also something else important. The group of 4 Starfleet officers fired 12 times and not a single shot connected. The Jem'Hadar were on a ridge in covered positions. The Type-3s were scoring shots just feet away from the Jem'Hadar, but they were not accurate enough to actually hit and kill any. What I theorize is that the auto targeting system must have a full body lock in order to hit. That is why when the Jem'Hadar assaulted out in the open, they were gunned down with ease. However at range and when the enemy uses cover the targeting system does not work as well. That would seem to be where the flip up sight comes in handy. It probably sets the rifle into a "zero" mode in which its sighted in on the sight itself. The reason the Starfleet officers didn't do this was because their fire was keeping the Jem'Hadar down and they had sufficent cover. Had the firefight lasted more then 30 seconds they probably would have changed tactics.

Alyeska wrote:What I theorize is that the auto targeting system must have a full body lock in order to hit. That is why when the Jem'Hadar assaulted out in the open, they were gunned down with ease

A fucking M1917 .30 Caliber heavy machine gun with water cooling jacket
and condenser from WWI would have stopped the Jem-Hadar attack
cold from descriptions I have heard of the Siege of AR-558. Just hose
the entire area down into a beaten zone of fire and kill anyone who
steps into it...no fancy autotargetting needed...

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote:What I theorize is that the auto targeting system must have a full body lock in order to hit. That is why when the Jem'Hadar assaulted out in the open, they were gunned down with ease

A fucking M1917 .30 Caliber heavy machine gun with water cooling jacket
and condenser from WWI would have stopped the Jem-Hadar attack
cold from descriptions I have heard of the Siege of AR-558. Just hose
the entire area down into a beaten zone of fire and kill anyone who
steps into it...no fancy autotargetting needed...

I am not disputing that. A M4A1 with iron sights can reliably hit stationary targets up to a range of 300 meters. With a ACOG 4x scope you can hit stationary targets reliably at 600 meters.

Interesting dialog:

Sisko: There's no way out of this canyon and we have phasers locked on every one of you.

Alyeska wrote: I am not disputing that. A M4A1 with iron sights can reliably hit stationary targets up to a range of 300 meters. With a ACOG 4x scope you can hit stationary targets reliably at 600 meters.

You don't get it, do you?

With a M1917 and a proper machine gun nest, you don't even have to
SEE your enemy. All you need to know is he's in the wire somewhere,
and your gunners just rip off entire belts, raking the beaten zone
back and forth using suppression by fire, no fancy lockons needed.

I know exactly what you meant. Asside for a few capabilities, "modern" weapons outclass phaser rifles.

Alyeska wrote:I know exactly what you meant. Asside for a few capabilities, "modern" weapons outclass phaser rifles.

Then why the fuck are the feds still using phasers? Jesus christ,
are they THAT stupid?

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote:I know exactly what you meant. Asside for a few capabilities, "modern" weapons outclass phaser rifles.

Then why the fuck are the feds still using phasers? Jesus christ,
are they THAT stupid?

Shep, it's been proved over and over that they are indeed that stupid.

Stormbringer wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote:I know exactly what you meant. Asside for a few capabilities, "modern" weapons outclass phaser rifles.

Then why the fuck are the feds still using phasers? Jesus christ,
are they THAT stupid?

Shep, it's been proved over and over that they are indeed that stupid.

No. Its a common "mistake" in scifi to use energy weapons and assume they must be better then projectile. As I detailed, the phaser rifles do have other capabilities. For a general purpose weapon primarily used for shipboard purposes, its just fine. What they need is a dedicated infantry combat weapon.

What they NEED is something like this.

Here is another view of it. This was my photoshoped creation that became the base for the 3d picture.
M23A4


And here are two carbines. The only difference is in the stock itself. Both based on the full sized rifle. Kinda like the M16 compared to the M4.

M21A2


M21A3

Alyeska wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:

MKSheppard wrote: Then why the fuck are the feds still using phasers? Jesus christ,
are they THAT stupid?

Shep, it's been proved over and over that they are indeed that stupid.

No. Its a common "mistake" in scifi to use energy weapons and assume they must be better then projectile. As I detailed, the phaser rifles do have other capabilities. For a general purpose weapon primarily used for shipboard purposes, its just fine. What they need is a dedicated infantry combat weapon.

Just because they make a common mistake doesn't mean they're any smart for making it. And you yourself admit they need better weapons.

Alyeska wrote: No. Its a common "mistake" in scifi to use energy weapons and assume they must be better then projectile. As I detailed, the phaser rifles do have other capabilities. For a general purpose weapon primarily used for shipboard purposes, its just fine. What they need is a dedicated infantry combat weapon.

No, what they need are fully automatic energy weapons.......sort of like......
perhaps......the E-WEB!!!

MKSheppard wrote:No, what they need are fully automatic energy weapons.......sort of like......
perhaps......the E-WEB!!!

GOD BLESS THE EMPIRE! *sniffles*

Although I do recall Kirk having one such device IIRC in "The Cage."
For whatever reason, it may hav ebeen phased out of service for being
impratical, or "inhuman" or the like.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

GOD BLESS THE EMPIRE! *sniffles*
[/quote]

A single E-Web firing from a properly prepared emplacement would have
killed all the Jem-Hadar on AR-558.

"Sir, we're hearing something in the wire!"

"Awright, hose the place down!"

*ripping blasterfire fills the night*

A couple Russians with PPSh's or a single water-cooled machine could have held that smallest of choke points. Of course one man with a rifle grenade launcher could have taken it against the Federation defenders.

An update on the 3d model picture. Compliments of Arachnid from Spacebattles.

While I don't believe that a single weapon would solve the UFP's personal combat problems, I do think that this one would be a significant step in the right direction.

Just Issue M4A1 MWS's with provisions for clipping a modified stun only hand phaser under the barrel in place of an M203. Fitting a laser along with it shouldn't be too hard. Thermal goes ontop.