Were the marines in Aliens competent?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-04-02 06:54pm

Frankly, I don't think the Colonial Marines were very professional at all. Hicks seemed to be the only one who bothered reading Ripley's report, Hudson was flat-out insubordinate on a number of occasions, Drake and Vasquez violate orders resulting directly in the destruction of the entire area, and there was no reason for the two Marines in the dropship to leave it wide open. And no one in the Sulaco?

I expect that regular army units in this universe have little patience with the Colonial Marines, who, massive ego aside, seem to get assigned to routine search-and-rescue missions. Their "combat drops" seem to do little to prepare them for actual combat.

Finally, for such a small unit on a search-and-rescue mission/"bug hunt" they are packing excessive firepower. Seriously, why do they give these twelve yahoos nukes? It's not hard to imagine Hicks, Dietrich, Apone, and Gorman all taken out in a combat situation, leaving Hudson, Vasquez, or Drake in charge. They may all be good characters, but I wouldn't trust them with the knives or the sharp sticks, let alone the nukes.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-02 07:08pm

To the professional side, that's what started me thinking about this in the first place, since Cameron said he wanted to represent high tech losing to a low tech enemy like in Vietnam.

As for the nukes, there's no such thing as overkill, and I imagine if 24 guys (full complement) have nukes 120 guys or 2000 guys have lots and lots of nukes... they're obviously standard kit. We don't know the yield of their nukes either. And it was a damn big ship for 24 guys.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-02 07:21pm

EDIT : Actually now that I think of it, there's no evidence in the film that 24 guys isn't a lot of guys. Ripley certainly didn't go "we're only going in with 12 guys holy shit" and it was a major sticking point that Ripley needed to feel safe going in. She thought that 12 guys was enough to take on thousands of potential aliens.

I imagine the same thing happened to the USCM as to contemporary militaries... the higher tech they went the less people they thought they needed. And the Alien ship only cost 40 million dollars, so unless inflation went the opposite way, technology must be very cheap in the Aliens universe. People would be expensive, with their life insurance policies and salaries. Technology actually has to be cheap, or the whole idea of civilian and even private ownership of starships in space would be ludicrious. I expect the Aliens civilization to have extensively mined the asteroid belt being a low-end Type-II civilization, and I just read a book which stated the ungodly sums of money in the asteroid belt when the raw materials are converted into dollars.

Brian

TheBlackCat · Post by **TheBlackCat** » 2006-04-02 07:22pm

Anguirus wrote:Drake and Vasquez violate orders resulting directly in the destruction of the entire area,

It was the dropship crash that caused the meltdown, not the smart rifles.

Anguirus wrote:and there was no reason for the two Marines in the dropship to leave it wide open.

As people keep saying, they weren't expecting an attack.

Anguirus wrote:I expect that regular army units in this universe have little patience with the Colonial Marines, who, massive ego aside, seem to get assigned to routine search-and-rescue missions.

In that universe the marines are the only force that is ready to be sent out at a moment's notice. Other branches of the military are much more difficult to mobilize and generally sent on missions involving larger, stand-up fights against significant enemy forces. The USCMC is sent in when a small force is needed to defend a colony world or to do a rescue mission, or when they need to rapidly respond to a threat before the other branches of the military can be mobilized. That is simply how the forces are divided up.

Anguirus wrote:Their "combat drops" seem to do little to prepare them for actual combat.

Against an enemy that is completely unlike anything they have ever encountered or ever expected to encounter. How could it?

Anguirus wrote:Finally, for such a small unit on a search-and-rescue mission/"bug hunt" they are packing excessive firepower. Seriously, why do they give these twelve yahoos nukes? It's not hard to imagine Hicks, Dietrich, Apone, and Gorman all taken out in a combat situation, leaving Hudson, Vasquez, or Drake in charge. They may all be good characters, but I wouldn't trust them with the knives or the sharp sticks, let alone the nukes.

Using nukes on such an uninhabited world is apparently not a serious issue in this time frame.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2006-04-02 07:52pm

As to the Gorman being green/incompetant thing, I think it's pretty obvious that he was doing exactly what he was trained to do, and when that didn't work he fell apart.

First of all, it seems that someone (due to manipulation by Burke, or just negligence) was a total idiot for sending a half a platoon witha new lieutenant in charge. There should have been (IMO) at least a company with a cpatain in charge, and several experienced NCOs (First Sergeant, Platoon sergeants)

Second, it seems to me that with the EKG/camera setup linked to the APC, that Gorman was trained to lead by sitting in the command chair and telling the sergeant what to do on the radio, rather than leading his men directly.

I can't imagine what made the marine corps decide that this was a good way to run a platoon, but it clearly didn't work in this situation.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2006-04-02 07:58pm

Am I the only one who's thinking that the reason they sent so few people on such a large ship was because they thought it might be necessary to evacuate some or all of the colonists?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-04-02 08:07pm

consequences wrote:Am I the only one who's thinking that the reason they sent so few people on such a large ship was because they thought it might be necessary to evacuate some or all of the colonists?

Nostromo was pretty big too and she only had seven crew. Perhaps their FTL drive takes alot of room?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-04-02 08:13pm

consequences wrote:Am I the only one who's thinking that the reason they sent so few people on such a large ship was because they thought it might be necessary to evacuate some or all of the colonists?

I don't know. When you think about it, given Burke seemed to have a good grasp of the xeno physiology, I expect he'd keep the numbers down so a tactical withdrawal was needed, but one that didn't end with losing every specimen there (try using scientific curiosity and money as an incentive to get guys to stop shooting at killers coming after them). He likely anticipated every colonist and living being there was harvested or KIA, so the marines go in, find no one to rescue, maybe take back a sample and have a little fight, then everyone goes home a little wiser, otherwise unhurt and Burke gets a promotion and Weyland-Yutani get their bioweapon and massive profits.

It started falling to pieces when the aliens proved to be experts of stealth on their own territory when under the fusion reactor, which was significantly compromised enough to cause uncontrolled fusion resulting in a nuke explosion rather than shutdown. Then the APC died and the dropship went down.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-04-02 08:17pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Nostromo was pretty big too and she only had seven crew. Perhaps their FTL drive takes alot of room?

The Nostromo was a mining vessel that was obviously automated to a significant degree. The modern supertankers only have tiny crews too, the rest of that space goes to the ore or other supplies since more crew = less space for profits. The USS Sulaco could carry more, but I guess again, they relied on automation rather than having more humans onboard (an obvious overeliance on technology). When you lose your microwave uplink to your mothership, you'll start wishing some people were onboard.

Kadaeux · Post by **Kadaeux** » 2006-04-02 08:25pm

It might have helped if Ripley had told them all "Oh, by the way, these things come through ducts, grates, walls, so keep a good al-round look. I don't recall anywhere in the movie where she warns them of their non-standard methods of movement-- she lets them re-invent the wheel and find out for themselves. So I'd even puit part of it on Ripley-- but most of the blame for incompetence falls on Gorman.

Watch Alien Ripley never actually sees the Alien utilise unusual methods of movement, in Aliens it was 70 years later IIRC Ripley had no knowledge of the colony layout, chances are Ripley tried very hard to forget about the aliens, the only hint that she knew about the Aliens moving through ducts was on the Nostromo when they were hunting it with the flamer and IIRC in that HQ they did block vent exits etc.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-02 08:51pm

Ok now, incompetence in summary:

- Leaving no one behind on the Sulaco (higher command policy?);

- Trying to command a squad entering a fusion reactor based on the information provided by remote cameras that are adversely affected by same fusion reactor, in addition to shoddy communications with the same problem (higher command policy/ Ghorman?);

- Ordering the majority of the squad to disarm themselves (the fortunate few relying on non-standard backup weapons) rather than returning to the APC to rearm with non armor-piercing ammunition (Ghorman);

- Using incinerators at all;

- Cpl Dietrick firing her flamethrower in fear when grabbed by an Alien (and no, as someone said earlier, she wasn't in her death-throes whatsoever, she was screaming the entire time she was taken up, even after she fired, and was alive and in a cocoon when they saw her readings back in the APC)- killing the one Marine who was trying to save her (Frost, who was bringing his pistol to bear at the time).

- giving overly elaborate orders to the Sgt when a simple "fall back" would've sufficed for any reasonable soldier- specifically:

"I want you to lay down a suppressing fire with the incinerators and fall back by squads to the APC..."

- the pilots of the dropship leaving the ship open and unguarded, and the pilot ignoring the co-pilot's warning that there was something on board;

- Not calling a transport down by remote immediately, instead choosing to wait over two weeks for rescue to arrive; and

- Hudson going berserk in the command room when he should've fallen back with everyone else.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-04-02 11:02pm

You know, it seems as if the way they were told about the mission was something like "Okay, we've lost contact a civilian colony on LV-426, so we want you to go down there and see what's up. Oh, by the way, it's possible there might some killer bugs or something somewhere on the planet, so keep an eye out", not the other way around. Most likely that bug bit was heavily downplayed, anyway.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-04-03 12:52am

Shadowtraveler wrote:You know, it seems as if the way they were told about the mission was something like "Okay, we've lost contact a civilian colony on LV-426, so we want you to go down there and see what's up. Oh, by the way, it's possible there might some killer bugs or something somewhere on the planet, so keep an eye out", not the other way around. Most likely that bug bit was heavily downplayed, anyway.

Hudsons comment and demeanor durring the briefing implies they get sent on 'bug hunts' a lot and it turns out to be nothing. Complacency breeds arrogance.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2006-04-03 01:03am

The Sulaco is automated out the wazoo. According to the Colonial marines technical manual during the usual USCMC operations it only packs enough cryo-sleep tubes for about 90 people (though the manual does say it's got enough room to be fitted with enough for ~2000 troops).

Also in regards to the APC, Gorman was certainly 'by the booking thing' up to the point of remaining in there long past the point he should have exited and joined the others. According to the technical manual the APC is supposed to be up there in direct support of the marines (which is why is has those big nasty plasma cannons and 20mm cannon on it).

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-04-03 01:20am

It was the dropship crash that caused the meltdown, not the smart rifles.

What makes you say that? They were firing explosive rounds in close proximity to cooling equipment.

The dropship crash probably didn't do any good, but it crashed into the outside of the very large complex. In fact, most of the energy of the impact went into the ground. It crashed into the APC, which was a ittle distance away. The movie desn't make a statement as far as I recall, but my money's on the Marines causing it.

As people keep saying, they weren't expecting an attack.

Do soldiers routinely leave military equipment unsecured on base, where they don't expect an attack?

How about an area where the population of the colony seems to have mysteriously disappeared, and you are being sent to see if predatory aliens caused the problem?

In that universe the marines are the only force that is ready to be sent out at a moment's notice. Other branches of the military are much more difficult to mobilize and generally sent on missions involving larger, stand-up fights against significant enemy forces. The USCMC is sent in when a small force is needed to defend a colony world or to do a rescue mission, or when they need to rapidly respond to a threat before the other branches of the military can be mobilized. That is simply how the forces are divided up.

Pretty much what I figured.

Against an enemy that is completely unlike anything they have ever encountered or ever expected to encounter. How could it?

Completely unlike? I'm not saying Aliens are a cakewalk, but much of what they were able to do to the Marines was compounded by both bad luck and borderline incompetence.

They are still melee-only opponents, and the Marines had a good idea of their numbers and capabilities very early on. Ripley gave them plenty of info, whch Bishop verified. The only surprise was the fact that they didn't show up on infrared.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-03 01:37am

What makes you say that? They were firing explosive rounds in close proximity to cooling equipment.

I think Bishop says, "the crash caused too much damage" or something like that. But as always, Bishop could be wrong and how could Bishop tell unless he inspected the wreckage and was an expert.

Brian

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-03 02:32am

The dropship crew may not have been informed of developments inside: they dropped the APC and peeled off to somewhere. Since the marines as a whole were expecting wildlife problems, either Gorman ordered them to land nearby or they decided on their own that a few possiblly-nonexistent lions or whatever were hardly going to board their ship. They never had a chance to see the barricades or the damage inside the complex, so unless someone told them they may still have been expecting a standard 'bug hunt' where the drop crew has downtime until the marines turn up nothing. I think the WO was moving doing stuff outside, so perhaps they were so undermanned they had him loading the dropship with artefacts from the site, or checking the ship for damage? I think when they were boarded the dropship was on the landing grid, quite close to the base.

Ripleys report was ignored and her license was revoked. I seriously doubt much stock was put into what was probably the ravings of a disturbed, traumatised cryosleep refugee. The comments of Vasquez et al show the marines very dismissive towards her opinions, and given her history of diagnosed mental illness I don't really blame them. She was only there at Burkes behest, and not as some sort of official person. How do modern soldiers take the theorisings of non-military scientists?

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-04-03 02:36am

I'm fairly certain Gorman admitted his two combat drops were simulated-- meaning, the mission in 'Aliens' was his FIRST actual combat drop.

As for Burke pulling the strings-- seriously, what the f*** was he thinking? His objective is to secure a sample from a hostile alien life-form for study. Info on his objective is limited, so he should've demanded HUGE numbers of marines to support him and increase the probability of his success. (The US government has NOT devoted insufficient funds/resources/personnel to finding out if potential enemies are developing nuclear weapons since the USSR detonated the RDS-1 atomic bomb.) As for the possibility of the marines leaking info on Weyland-Yutani's new bioweapon-- just bribe the higher-ranking officers, and the lower-ranking officers and enlisted personnels' leaking will be dismissed as baseless rumors.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-03 02:40am

Ripleys report was ignored and her license was revoked. I seriously doubt much stock was put into what was probably the ravings of a disturbed, traumatised cryosleep refugee. The comments of Vasquez et al show the marines very dismissive towards her opinions, and given her history of diagnosed mental illness I don't really blame them. She was only there at Burkes behest, and not as some sort of official person. How do modern soldiers take the theorisings of non-military scientists?

Ghorman was quite specific about everyone reading Ripley's report- they were dismissive before this, not so much after. Hicks was paying enough attention that he knew immediately what he was looking at when he saw the damage in the compound- "look like someone bagged one of Ripley's bad guys ..."

Really, by the time they were going into the reactor, they should've been serious- any reasonable person seeing that shit would be. For the most part, they were.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-03 02:40am

No he has around thirty simulated combat drops and one real combat drop in addition to Aliens. So he had one before.

As for bribing military officers--you are out of your mind. You cannot just bribe military officers, especially volunteers who would be devoted and loyal to their job and their oath. Gorman was spit, polish and shine and once you get home you need to go through "ISS Quarantine" measures which was the whole point of getting a facehugger on Ripley or the girl. Burke wasn't stupid, his plan nearly worked but Ripley short-circuited it.

Brian

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-03 02:43am

Burke didn't plan to have Ripley/Newt impregnated at the very outset- he made his intentions known to Bishop quite obviously and Bishop told Ripley. The procedures were significantly lax that Burke said they wouldn't do anything about it as long as they didn't know- i.e. so long as no one told them. Ripley then said "oh but they will know about it Burke- from me."

Spetulhu · Post by **Spetulhu** » 2006-04-03 03:58am

brianeyci wrote:As for bribing military officers--you are out of your mind. You cannot just bribe military officers, especially volunteers who would be devoted and loyal to their job and their oath.

Huh? It's not that long ago some militaries gave you an officer's commission if you paid the high command a certain sum of money. Having military rank was a good way to get into high society. And you always need more money if you're trying to impress the rich and famous.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-03 04:12am

Alyeska wrote:Going outside with such few numbers by that point was just about as suicidal. The sentry guns can only cover so much of an angle, and to array for the best defense would only put 25% of their heaviest firepower in any one direction. Unlike normal foot soldiers, the Xenos can effectively attack from any direction or terrain.

Bullshit. All they had to do was find a reasonably flat area; the region around the transmitter would have been fine. Then they could just pick off the aliens as they approached. The aliens' numbers were only a hundred and fifty or so (anyone claiming much higher numbers from livestock or whatever would do well to explain why the fuck Ripley ran into so little resistance before breaching the Queen's space), and it's a helluva lot easier to pick off a melee opponent from 50 yards than from 3. Also, there are fewer avenues of attack on the ground than there inside a building, not more.

The marines would have had to find some really nice terrain to suit their defense. Even then, retreat is impossible. The facility offered them an enviroment they could retreat in. Go through a door and seal it, keep moving.

That's bullshit too; it is far easier to retreat outside than inside. Inside, you've got to hope they haven't breached the rooms behind you as well as the ones in front of you. And in fact, the xenomorphs had breached the room behind them, which is how Burke died.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-03 04:34am

TheBlackCat wrote:Using nukes on such an uninhabited world is apparently not a serious issue in this time frame.

However, giving arming authorization for nuclear weapons to a squad led by a fucking Lieutenant is insane. If any old Lt can arm nuclear weapons at will, the risk of some truly terrible incident is staggering.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-04-03 05:45am

As to the "not falling back to reload" is there any proof they even had any non-standard ammo to replace the standard explosives with.