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consequences wrote:

Super-Gagme wrote:I'm sorry but I don't understand the constant reference to WEG. The RPG license is now in WOTC hands and anything they write about something WEG covered should be officially WOTC > WEG. This is in terms of source not gameplay, just so nobody bitches.

Fuck that. WOTC makes Fucking X-Wing seem like the model of fairness when it comes to Starfighter vs. Capital Ship Combat. They have no idea what they are talking about, and their material flatly contradicts just about every naval fight ever written in one of the novels, or portrayed on-screen. Or do you honestly think that the laser cannons on a TF 'battleship' are more powerful than the Heavy TL batteries on an ISD?
WEG may have gotten a lot of things wrong, but they at least attempted to have some consistency. WOTC is just shitting all over the SW universe.

Yeah uhh that's bullshit. Sorry but just because you don't like something doesn't make it less official. SE > OT in terms of canon, and if you fucking hate the Prequels? Too bad, they are part of it too. Dumb ass. Disliking something doesn't refute it.

The Special Edition overrides the OT since when exactly? WOTC and WEG are on the same level, canonicitywise, plus WOTC is a lot more shitty (I don't actually know a lot of it, but I don't like it anyway). If WOTC really screwed up like consequences said, I would tend to give them less credit than WEG.

GySgt. Hartman wrote:The Special Edition overrides the OT since when exactly? WOTC and WEG are on the same level, canonicitywise, plus WOTC is a lot more shitty (I don't actually know a lot of it, but I don't like it anyway). If WOTC really screwed up like consequences said, I would tend to give them less credit than WEG.

There was a scale system in WEG which means that a starfighter has a really hard time hurting a capital ship while a capital ship has a hard time hitting fighters due to greater maneuverability

Lord Pounder wrote:A-Wings carry Concussion Missiles IIRC.

Usually yes, but you can switch out the launchers.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:More like WEG and the official world tends to assume there is one weapon.

Not really. WOTC is apart of the "official world" and they list the VSD as being capable of carrying planetary-assault warheads as well as capital ship killers. Hell, if we factor in something like the X-wing games we could speculate on point defense "missiles" as well.

Read above and you'd see I agree with you on the POSSIBILITY of these weapons. Plausibility is another matter. You've speculated on a very specialized purpose weapon. Which means it'd be even rarer and even harder to find.

Why does being "specialized" automatically make them "rare"?

Ultimately, it comes down to this:

You create a very special one-time combination of missile,
coordination and so on to Force-Rationalize the result, with the result that the net chance of making it reappear are so small you might as well have discarded it.

They've used the mass-time fire tactic before (Starfighters of Adumar - it was the only way the Blades could inflict any damage at all), as well as the Corruptor (The Bacta War). In fact, its the same sort tof tactic employed in Torpedo spheres to knock out sections of planetary shields. Furthermore, we know that shields do have "weak points" to target (ref: New Rebellion, ISB, The Black Fleet Crisis, etc.) that can be exploited.

Another couple of points I forgot to mention:

Booster bought over 250 capital grade launchers from Karrde - clearly they expected that to be neccessary to engage the Lusankya with. This is also consistent with the fact Drysso believed that the 300 torpedo/missile tubes on the station would be able to down his shields, as well as the "at least a dozen X-wing squadrons" statement.
(IE it takes hundreds of capital-grade warheads to take down the Lusankya's shields.)

Additionally, the X-wings had not started firing torpedoes until some time after the Freedom's arrival, meaning that the Freedom had ample time to engage its own attack (most of the ISD-2's guns aren't goign to do much to the shields, but the heavy guns should carry enough punch to degrade even the Lusankya's shields somewhat - this is also coupled with Drysso's incompetencec in not taking the Freedom out immediately.)

Plus, we also know that Wedge noted and utizlied the fact that ships as large as STar Destroyers and the Lusankya would be more difficult to repair, and considered both buying up available parts to drive up prices as well as funneling inferior components to Isard - meaning that he made deliberate efforts to degrade the efficiency of Isard's ships before engaging directly.)

What I am postulating is something that is indicated by the novel: Wedge knew there was no way he could conventionally engage the Lusankya, so he had to resort to unconventional tactics in order to be able to attack it. (and even then, it was still factual that he could not really destrroy or severely damage it - and he orderd over two thousand missiles and torpedoes!) There is a great deal of ambiguity in the Lusankya incident (as well as what appear some internal inconsistencies.), but it is hardly irreconcilable (especially since several significant details involve "point of view" of individuals like Drysso, who we've already agreed is a tremendous moron.)

I just look at the dispar and say "Hell, just discard it." It winds up being effectively the same.

No, they don't. I'm trying to rationalize something by dealing with the variables and evidence, you just want to toss it out.

While we are on this line of topic, I personally wonder how you solve that 8-torpedo for a Golan fiasco in Isard's Revenge. Those are starfighter torpedoes, and there is a limit to how big a fighter-torp can be.

The Battle of Bilbringi? Well:

1.) Wedge knew that even Rogue Squadron couldn't take on the Golan II platforms (Ref: The Last command.) That off the bat sort of suggests that the Rogues did not actually "take on" the Golan by themselves. In fact, The Last Command strongly indicates that they were supported in the assault.

2.) Wedge requested support from Ackbar in attacking it, but also knew that Aves and his group (who were also at Bilbringi looking to steal a CGT) would also be on hand to lend support. This means that the Golans would have been already engaged by the time Corran and the others (in Isard's Revenge) were attacking.

3.) From Isard's Revenge, page 6: "Eight torpedoes coming in at the same time, aiming for the same point, would overstress the shields, draining them of energy. This would create a critical time window in which the shields would be weakened, or would totally fail, and have to be regenerated." They fired two successive salvos. The first salvo opened up a small hole (or simply created a weakened area) long enough for the second volley of eight torpedoes to penetrate. AFter this, the shields are down (and two Assault Frigates engage the station)

We conclude thus:

1.) Wedge and Aves devise a plan to jointly attack a quartet of Golan II stations in order to diverrt Imperial attention from Ackbar's fleet.

2.) Wedge realizes that the Rogues could not take the Golans on alone (as indicated in the last command) , but have a chance with Aves if they can get backup, so request support from Ackbar.

3.) Wedge, Aves, and the Rebel support he's given (including those two Assault Frigates, obviously) engage the Golan IIs. During the battle, Corran's group strikes at one with a concerted torpedo attack, making a small hole in the shields (which at this point are no doubt weakened from capital ship attack - remember Aves and the NR support TLC mentions?) through which a second volley strikes, taking out the shield generators and dropping their shields, whereupon a pair of Assault Frigates attack the station.

Incidentally, info on the Golan II (the type at Bilbringi according to The Last Command) can be found here

The Golan-2 seems to be designed to combat lighter warships more than dedicated combat ones, so its quite possible its shielding is not made to stand up to heavy punishment from capital ships.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:A-Wings carry Concussion Missiles IIRC.

Usually yes, but you can switch out the launchers.

The A-wings ("Green Leader/Green squadron") carried proton torpedoes in the ROTJ novelization (that was what they attacked the bridge with.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:The A-wings ("Green Leader/Green squadron") carried proton torpedoes in the ROTJ novelization (that was what they attacked the bridge with.)

Is this canonical? They replace this with the crash in the movie, no?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:The A-wings ("Green Leader/Green squadron") carried proton torpedoes in the ROTJ novelization (that was what they attacked the bridge with.)

Is this canonical? They replace this with the crash in the movie, no?

I think he means the warhead hits on the sensor dome prior to the crash.

I thought those were laser blasts; and if not--they were definitely more elongated and dart-like--like the Falcon's missiles.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I thought those were laser blasts; and if not--they were definitely more elongated and dart-like--like the Falcon's missiles.

Hmm. Now that I think about it, you may be right. I don't know if those were warheads or not. I have no VCR here at school and haven't watched the movies since last summer at least.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Not really. WOTC is apart of the "official world" and they list the VSD as being capable of carrying planetary-assault warheads as well as capital ship killers. Hell, if we factor in something like the X-wing games we could speculate on point defense "missiles" as well.

Fine.

Why does being "specialized" automatically make them "rare"?

Specialist weapons generally have limited applications, thus tending to make them rarer than generalized weapons.

They've used the mass-time fire tactic before (Starfighters of Adumar - it was the only way the Blades could inflict any damage at all), as well as the Corruptor (The Bacta War). In fact, its the same sort tof tactic employed in Torpedo spheres to knock out sections of planetary shields. Furthermore, we know that shields do have "weak points" to target (ref: New Rebellion, ISB, The Black Fleet Crisis, etc.) that can be exploited.

The mass fire tactic is common. But you have to multiply that by your Specialty Weapon. Which is obviously a lot harder to obtain. SSDs would be quite useless if a few freighters can easily scrape up enough of those specialty weapons to kill them.

Booster bought over 250 capital grade launchers from Karrde - clearly they expected that to be neccessary to engage the Lusankya with. This is also consistent with the fact Drysso believed that the 300 torpedo/missile tubes on the station would be able to down his shields, as well as the "at least a dozen X-wing squadrons" statement.
(IE it takes hundreds of capital-grade warheads to take down the Lusankya's shields.)

It then shows a mere 80 busting a bow shield.

Additionally, the X-wings had not started firing torpedoes until some time after the Freedom's arrival, meaning that the Freedom had ample time to engage its own attack (most of the ISD-2's guns aren't goign to do much to the shields, but the heavy guns should carry enough punch to degrade even the Lusankya's shields somewhat - this is also coupled with Drysso's incompetencec in not taking the Freedom out immediately.)

There was no record of an Acutal Attack Attempt by the Freedom until after the bow shield was taken out. Some stuff, like internal shield reallocation and damage control efforts generally aren't detailed, but an actual attack attempt not recorded?

Plus, we also know that Wedge noted and utizlied the fact that ships as large as STar Destroyers and the Lusankya would be more difficult to repair, and considered both buying up available parts to drive up prices as well as funneling inferior components to Isard - meaning that he made deliberate efforts to degrade the efficiency of Isard's ships before engaging directly.)

That would have to be a lot of degradation.

No, they don't. I'm trying to rationalize something by dealing with the variables and evidence, you just want to toss it out.

I meant in terms of applicability to other situations. You added sabotage, special missiles ... etc. At some point, the net repeatability of your scenario falls so low it becomes useless.

I can also rationalize this, if I so wish. But I'd choose to do it a different way. Yours is the standard Lusankya Defense, and if you ask me, it has a few too many 'self-generations.'

I'd just blame poor shield allocation skill. Your stuff could be optional, but let's not add un-necessary multipliers - every multiplier reduces the repeatability.

In terms of Threat Index, the highest is the Freedom. The lowest is the freighters.

On P.301, Freedom is on the Lusankya's dorsal side and diving on it. The War Cruiser's on the ass. The fighters seem to be coming on Starboard bow. Drysso would probably prepare his dorsal side by beefing it up, with a power shift to starboard as he rolls to prepare to engage the Freedom.

If he drains enough power away from the bow shield, it is possible to reduce its strength to the point where 80 normal capital-grade missiles might just plow through. Then the Freedom takes advantage by attacking the bow.

After he disables the Freedom, the man tries to re-establish his bow shields (stated,) and since the starfighters are now on his belly (stated,) he'd now also have to reinforce ventral. He does this by thinning out his intact shields. That gives Tycho a chance to engage the now thinned out starboard shields.

The guy now tries to re-establish his starboard shield as well. That means the idiot thins out his ventral, thus giving Wedge another chance at hitting his hangar bay.

The game goes on until all his shields are downed piecemeal. It's still hard to believe, but it might happen. If this is the case, then the real lesson of Bacta War is that given an adequately stinking Captain and crew, it is possible to lose in any ship.

I'd discuss IR later. Your approach is the sensible one and the one anybody would conclude had happened reading TLC. I'm just not sure whether it'd go well with IR yet. I'd check and talk to you later today.

The mass fire tactic is common. But you have to multiply that by your Specialty Weapon. Which is obviously a lot harder to obtain. SSDs would be quite useless if a few freighters can easily scrape up enough of those specialty weapons to kill them.

Ah, but those few freighters would normally be long engaged and destroyed by the massive starfighter complement of the SSD, something that the Lusankya didn't have. Further, those freighters didn't have the targeting to do what they did independently; they had to slave their launchers to an X-wing's firing sensors. This requires prior planning and work done on both the freighters and the fighters, so this isn't your average everyday operation that any smuggler group could pull off.

That would have to be a lot of degradation.

Why yes, it would be. And that would be a lot of power going through those shield generators. Anybody know how maintenance intensive something conducting that much energy and using it to generate a constant field might be?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:The A-wings ("Green Leader/Green squadron") carried proton torpedoes in the ROTJ novelization (that was what they attacked the bridge with.)

Is this canonical? They replace this with the crash in the movie, no?

It might have happened offscreen, but but even if they didnt do the damage shown onscreen, how does this disprove those A-wings were equipped with torpedoes?

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Specialist weapons generally have limited applications, thus tending to make them rarer than generalized weapons.

"Specialized" is in anti capital ship, planetary assault, planet-busting/planet wrecking (mentioned in "Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka - the Imperials were listed as having planet-wrecking warheads... pretty damn powerful ones too.) anti-fighter (the death star had missile tubes and fired "explosive solids" at the Rebel fighters - ref ANH novelization).. and that doesnt even go into according to ship classes.

Again, what makes such weapons "rare"?

The mass fire tactic is common. But you have to multiply that by your Specialty Weapon. Which is obviously a lot harder to obtain. SSDs would be quite useless if a few freighters can easily scrape up enough of those specialty weapons to kill them.

Prove its a "specialty weapon." and that these are harder to obtain. All I am saying is that they have capital scale warheads of some kind (and that "capital scale" is open to quite a bit of debate.)

And no, they're not useless. Wedge never destroyed the Lusankya (even though it took attacks from two Star Destroyers, the Valiant, hundreds of missiles and torpedoes, etc.)

It then shows a mere 80 busting a bow shield.

No, they count up to eighty, but that doesnt mean more hit. They initially only tracked twenty, then forty. Why bother buying hundreds of capital warhead launchers if you're only going to use a fraction of them?

Plus, you have yet to explain Drysso's fear about the stations' "hundreds" of missiles and torpedoes taking down his shields.

There was no record of an Acutal Attack Attempt by the Freedom until after the bow shield was taken out. Some stuff, like internal shield reallocation and damage control efforts generally aren't detailed, but an actual attack attempt not recorded?

Drysso ordered his gunner to fire his ion cannons on the Freedom. Are you seriously suggesting Sair Yonka just sat there taking ion cannon fire until Wedge launched his torpedo attack?

That would have to be a lot of degradation.

Over a period of time, yes. So fuckign what? Its still a valid reason, and it explains the incident without having to dismiss it. Do you really need the "harmonization over dismissal" aspect of analysis explained to you?

I meant in terms of applicability to other situations. You added sabotage, special missiles ... etc. At some point, the net repeatability of your scenario falls so low it becomes useless.

But they aren't assumptions, are they? I have cited references from the novels where such factors have been mentioned. All that I am doing is explaining them in such a fashion that the disparate evidencec makes sense without dismissing it. You, on the other hand, seem insistent on applying your "opinion" to it as a deciding factor. So what's the deal here?

I can also rationalize this, if I so wish. But I'd choose to do it a different way. Yours is the standard Lusankya Defense, and if you ask me, it has a few too many 'self-generations.'

Wrong. I am basing it on stated facts from the novels themselves (which I have referenced, although if it comes down to it I will drag out the quotes.) The only apparent counterargument I am getting from you is "its stupid", so we shouldn't accept the rationalization.

So fine, rationalize it without dismissing evidence, if you can.

I'd just blame poor shield allocation skill. Your stuff could be optional, but let's not add un-necessary multipliers - every multiplier reduces the repeatability.

Drysso ordered shield allocation after the bow shields went down. I don't see how "assuming" an unknown is a better solution.

In terms of Threat Index, the highest is the Freedom. The lowest is the freighters.

Don't be ludicrous. Even on its own,. a single Star Destrroyer si going to require many minutes, (half an hour more liekly) to even begin inflicting any sort of significant shield damage. The only reason its important in myy theory is because of th heavy turbolasers (which more than likely can weaken or penetrate the shields on their own or in a concentrated salvo, like the ISD-1 TLs - ref OT ICS HTL entry). Not only can the HTLS penetrate and locally weaken shields, they can possibly inflict damage on projectors as well.)

Anyhow, even assuming this is possible (which it might be), this is not mutually exclusive with anything I have already mentioned - this simply represents yet another example of Drysso's stupidity. Or are you thinking Drysso deliberately left the shielding on his other sides manyy orders of magnitude weaker?

On P.301, Freedom is on the Lusankya's dorsal side and diving on it. The War Cruiser's on the ass. The fighters seem to be coming on Starboard bow. Drysso would probably prepare his dorsal side by beefing it up, with a power shift to starboard as he rolls to prepare to engage the Freedom.

Again, assuming this is true, how does this automatically invalidate anything I have mentioned?

If he drains enough power away from the bow shield, it is possible to reduce its strength to the point where 80 normal capital-grade missiles might just plow through. Then the Freedom takes advantage by attacking the bow.

So you ARE proposing that he is literally dropping shields to a small fraction of what they would normally be? He doesnt even think an ISD can hurt him (remember the statement about a ship a tenth of their size?)

Besides, given his demonstrated arrogance, it seems liklier he would simpyl not bother diverting full power to shields - he clearyl doesnt consider any of them to be a threat - which works just as well.

After he disables the Freedom, the man tries to re-establish his bow shields (stated,) and since the starfighters are now on his belly (stated,) he'd now also have to reinforce ventral. He does this by thinning out his intact shields. That gives Tycho a chance to engage the now thinned out starboard shields.

Yes, this was stated. Waroen warns him that they'll have to do that.

The guy now tries to re-establish his starboard shield as well. That means the idiot thins out his ventral, thus giving Wedge another chance at hitting his hangar bay.

Yes.

The game goes on until all his shields are downed piecemeal. It's still hard to believe, but it might happen. If this is the case, then the real lesson of Bacta War is that given an adequately stinking Captain and crew, it is possible to lose in any ship.

Which is part of my original theory as well. You still havent explained how the various factors I referenced (drawn from the sources I have indicated) are contradicted by this.

I'd discuss IR later. Your approach is the sensible one and the one anybody would conclude had happened reading TLC. I'm just not sure whether it'd go well with IR yet. I'd check and talk to you later today.

You can't ignore TLC when dealing with IR. The problem with IR is that its from Corran's viewpoint, and we can't assume he knows or is seeing everything (just like Wedge does not see everything.) You also can't ignore the fact Wedge clearly idnicates in TLC that Rogue Squadron on its own could not take on the Golans and would need help from bigger ships.

I finally appended the Bilbringi part, and did some minor formatting stuff.

1) Don't blame me for the Specialized part. First:

Connor wrote:Wedge acquired eighty-some freighters that he equipped with capital scale warhead launchers acquired through Talon Karrde (Wayne Poe has pointed this out numerous times before.)

You proposed capital launchers. Since that was clearly in the book, I of course have no objection. So I pointed out that the standard anti capital ship weapons won't be good enough.

You then started pointing out the possibility of different missiles, and started to propose:

Connor wrote:For all we know the missiles were optimized for low acceleration/endurance and tracking, but extremely high-yields (They were used at a distancec of only a few kilometers, after all.)

If that kind of thing is not suggesting 'specialty' torps, I don't know what it is.

2) Now for 'rare.' I did propose rare.

Connor wrote:"Specialized" is in anti capital ship, planetary assault, planet-busting/planet wrecking (mentioned in "Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka - the Imperials were listed as having planet-wrecking warheads... pretty damn powerful ones too.) anti-fighter (the death star had missile tubes and fired "explosive solids" at the Rebel fighters - ref ANH novelization).. and that doesnt even go into according to ship classes.

Anti capital-ship weapons are not rare. They are standard fare on VSDs and SSDs. I just pointed out the Standard anti-ship missiles would probably lack the power to do it.

Anti-fighter weapons are not rare - what do you think they stuff onto the fighters? But that specialty is even further away from doing that job.

Planet-wrecking? Given Imperial weapons yields, almost any heavy weapon can be 'planet-wrecking.'

Planetary Assault? You mean shield busting? Yeah, they are on the torpedo spheres. But they aren't that good against ships.

Allow me to re-select a term. Instead of Specialty, maybe I should have tried Exotic. Your original request called for a low-accel, poor-track, high yield weapon meant for just short-range antiship use. If that's not exotic, I'm not sure what is.

3) A little nitpick

Connor wrote:And no, they're not useless. Wedge never destroyed the Lusankya (even though it took attacks from two Star Destroyers, the Valiant, hundreds of missiles and torpedoes, etc.)

They just rendered it totally helpless and captured it. Yeah, big improvement there...

4) Missile counts

Connor wrote:No, they count up to eighty, but that doesnt mean more hit. They initially only tracked twenty, then forty. Why bother buying hundreds of capital warhead launchers if you're only going to use a fraction of them?

Plus, you have yet to explain Drysso's fear about the stations' "hundreds" of missiles and torpedoes taking down his shields.

They counted to 80. There was no evidence of any more for the first salvo. As for the others, they have 5 more shield surfaces to go, fella.

If 80 can do it, so can 'hundreds.'

5) Firing Delays

Connor wrote:Drysso ordered his gunner to fire his ion cannons on the Freedom. Are you seriously suggesting Sair Yonka just sat there taking ion cannon fire until Wedge launched his torpedo attack?

Drysso ordered the fire, but there seemed to be some sort of delay before it was executed. Probably an elevation limit problem or firing lock problem by the poor crew. Drysso in fact was screaming about why his orders weren't executed yet when the torps hit.

6) Harmonization and Dismissal

Over a period of time, yes. So fuckign what? Its still a valid reason, and it explains the incident without having to dismiss it. Do you really need the "harmonization over dismissal" aspect of analysis explained to you?

Of all the warships, Lusankya would suffer the least attrition to such reasons. She rarely moves on convoy duty, which saves her a lot of wear and tear.

Harmonization is generally superior over dismissal. At some point, however, harmonization degrades into Forced rationalization. The rationalization becomes so weak and conditional you've effectively dismissed it without admitting you've done so.

In Summary
Your so-called harmonization based on the story involves taking limited quotes from the story and blowing them near beyond comprehension.

1) You seize on the Capital-Scale Missiles. I tell you that it will have difficulty working, because the normal missiles probably aren't good enough. Your retort is basically "Ah, but they could be EXOTIC missiles, with an order of magnitude improvement in yield over even the standard weapons, could they?"

Nobody can prove a negative, so by definition they could not disprove your exotic missiles. I couldn't help but wonder where these Wonder-weapons would be in places like Solo Command.

2) You seize on the sabotaged parts. Never mind Lusankya's demand would be low due to lack of action (they imply in the story Lusankya does not generally do convoy duty.) Never mind that if the Imperials got even a bit of competence, they'd have checked out the systems and eliminated poor parts. So while the bad parts will cost them credits, many of them would not make it onto the ship. Never mind between your sabotage, you have to arrange for something like an order of magnitude's worth of decreased shield performance. You are not talking getting a ship below optimal, which should be possible. You are talking nearly crippling it, and there's no evidence such a pervasive effect took place.

Of course, again, no one can prove a negative.

It is not the quotes. It is what you've done with them.
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As for my theory, it can work IN conjunction or independently. It is not in contradiction to you. It shows my preferance character solutions to continuity problems, rather than inventing exotic missiles or other one-time tech. Characters are more malleable and variable than equipment. Whenever possible, I also try not to assume the enemy's equipment is near dead.

Connor wrote:Drysso ordered shield allocation after the bow shields went down. I don't see how "assuming" an unknown is a better solution.

Actually, he ordered a Shield Repair. Shield allocation is a standard procedure.

Connor wrote:Don't be ludicrous. Even on its own,. a single Star Destrroyer si going to require many minutes, (half an hour more liekly) to even begin inflicting any sort of significant shield damage. The only reason its important in myy theory is because of th heavy turbolasers (which more than likely can weaken or penetrate the shields on their own or in a concentrated salvo, like the ISD-1 TLs - ref OT ICS HTL entry). Not only can the HTLS penetrate and locally weaken shields, they can possibly inflict damage on projectors as well.)

You say this and you don't suspect he might just have reinforced the dorsal shield surfaces to reduce that effect?

I generated tactics, which are just ways of using established equipment and which anyone can cook up on the spot (though some are more skiflful than others, with Drysso near the bottom.) You generated entirely new weapons, and a scenario where the SSD is near dead even before the battle started, rather than just slightly suboptimum.
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Finally, for TLC, the problem is that in that critical junction, IR is basically unopposed, because TLC does not cover that part at all. They cover the plan in extremely general terms, and then there's a scene switch, and when you come back a Golan's dead.

Most of your statement works fine on TLC. But Isard Revenge certainly tries hard to kill your conclusion.

Connor MacLeod wrote:3.) Wedge, Aves, and the Rebel support he's given (including those two Assault Frigates, obviously) engage the Golan IIs. During the battle, Corran's group strikes at one with a concerted torpedo attack, making a small hole in the shields (which at this point are no doubt weakened from capital ship attack - remember Aves and the NR support TLC mentions?) through which a second volley strikes, taking out the shield generators and dropping their shields, whereupon a pair of Assault Frigates attack the station.

1) You are going to have to make the Initial Penetration Equation work without the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star. It is durn clear that the two ships didn't make engagement position until after the torp attack. They did a good finishing job, after the shields were cracked.

2) There was in fact, no direct evidence that Aves people made any significant contribution on the mentioned Golan Station. In fact, they might as well have disappeared. Wedge Antilles told them the Golan is theirs, without mention of the smugglers. One would think if they were both after the same station, some plan would be made at coordinating their efforts. The entire attack was made without a single reference to them, not even a sighting. Ackbar then credits the thing to them, without a single word of the 'independent resistance group' (Wedge's chosen euphemism for the smugglers) that had been assisting. I suppose they must have been attacking one of the other Golans - with unknown success.

3) So at the end of the day, a mere 16 starfighter torpedoes downed the Golan's shields for good, and really their first salvo was already penetrating. I still can't believe that thing was compared to an ImpStar.

4) If the thing was designed to go against starfighters and small ships, doesn't that mean it should do well against anything Aves smugglers threw at it? They are after all, in that range it was optimized for.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: You proposed capital launchers. Since that was clearly in the book, I of course have no objection. So I pointed out that the standard anti capital ship weapons won't be good enough.

Except I don't recall it saying "standard" launchers (whatever the hell those are.) "Capital ship" proton torpedoes and concussion missiles can cover quite a wide spectrum.

You then started pointing out the possibility of different missiles, and started to propose:

Connor wrote:For all we know the missiles were optimized for low acceleration/endurance and tracking, but extremely high-yields (They were used at a distancec of only a few kilometers, after all.)

If that kind of thing is not suggesting 'specialty' torps, I don't know what it is.

Mere speculation on my part (maybe you noticed the "For all we know" bit.) - but its not really a relevant nor neccessary part of my argument (We don't NEED to know exactly what sort of capital grade launchers or what purpose.)

]
Anti capital-ship weapons are not rare. They are standard fare on VSDs and SSDs. I just pointed out the Standard anti-ship missiles would probably lack the power to do it.

Anti-fighter weapons are not rare - what do you think they stuff onto the fighters? But that specialty is even further away from doing that job.

Planet-wrecking? Given Imperial weapons yields, almost any heavy weapon can be 'planet-wrecking.'

Planetary Assault? You mean shield busting? Yeah, they are on the torpedo spheres. But they aren't that good against ships.

No, I'm just pointing out that your assumptions that Specialized = rare is unfounded. (Even though as already mentioned, the exact kind of "Capital" warhead launcher or its role/purpose is irrelevant to the discussion.

Allow me to re-select a term. Instead of Specialty, maybe I should have tried Exotic. Your original request called for a low-accel, poor-track, high yield weapon meant for just short-range antiship use. If that's not exotic, I'm not sure what is.

Except I admit freely that it may not be as I speculated (You do remember I was speculating, ,right?) Fortunately for me, its not crucial to my argument in any way. (I could just as easily assume they were modified warheads like Jedi "Shadow Bombs" or something else. It still makes no difference, exceept maybe to emphasize further just how unconventional Antilles tactics were.)

They just rendered it totally helpless and captured it. Yeah, big improvement there...

Wow, they targeted and destroyed all its weapons and shields. The ship itself was still intact, including most internal systems (they had prisoners to rescue, remember?)

They counted to 80. There was no evidence of any more for the first salvo. As for the others, they have 5 more shield surfaces to go, fella.

They had a demonstrated difficulty tracking all the torpedoes (Waroen revised his figures at least four times.) Plus there is a small fact the shields held for several seconds - do you seriously want me to believe that the detonations of those torpedoes were sustained? (It may in fact suggest that local penetrations were achieved, and that warheads slipped through to destroy generators, which would be consistent with the "Mass fire" tactic.)

If the fact that the shields were stronger than the combined yield of those eighty torpedoes could possibly have been (another one of your assumptions, I might add), that means there are more (especially since we know Wedge DID buy more launchers.)

If 80 can do it, so can 'hundreds.'

Yes, and it would also inflict tremendous damage on the huull in the process (In fact, hundreds should rather heavily damage the ship by that logic. Gee, you're doing a great job of fixing the contradiction at this rate. And what about the fact repeated volleys of hundreds of warheads were considered neccessary to destroy the Lusankya?)

Drysso ordered the fire, but there seemed to be some sort of delay before it was executed. Probably an elevation limit problem or firing lock problem by the poor crew. Drysso in fact was screaming about why his orders weren't executed yet when the torps hit.

The Lusankya was already rolling before the Rogues launched their first volleys. And the gunners were firing on the Rogues without problem. How would you explain this if, as you say, the Freedom is the greater threat?

Of all the warships, Lusankya would suffer the least attrition to such reasons. She rarely moves on convoy duty, which saves her a lot of wear and tear.

The suffered some severe wear and tear escaping from Coruscant, and the occupation of Thyferra is another unknown. (In fact, its rather hard to say what the Lusankya did or did not do to require maintenance or repairs, since it spent alot of the time in the book off screen until the end.)

Harmonization is generally superior over dismissal. At some point, however, harmonization degrades into Forced rationalization. The rationalization becomes so weak and conditional you've effectively dismissed it without admitting you've done so.

And you're establishing this arbitrary boundary point between the two... how? Your opinions on what constitutes "harmonization" and "Forced rationalization?" Dismissal is the absolute *last* answer, and to be taken when no other choice is available - not because someone has a subjective dislike of the rationalization itself. In this instance, dismissal has not *proven* to be a neccessity.

Your so-called harmonization based on the story involves taking limited quotes from the story and blowing them near beyond comprehension.

A conclusion which is apparently based on your subjective opinion about what constitutes "Harmonization" and "Forced rationalization". Gee, I'm still stinging from the crushing blow you dealt there.

1) You seize on the Capital-Scale Missiles. I tell you that it will have difficulty working, because the normal missiles probably aren't good enough. Your retort is basically "Ah, but they could be EXOTIC missiles, with an order of magnitude improvement in yield over even the standard weapons, could they?"

Again, based on your assumption that we're dealing with some sorrt of arbitrarily defined "standard" capital ship missile, even though the nature of the warheads are not relevant to the discussion. Maybe you'd care to justify your assumption that Booster and Wedge bought "Standard" Capital scale missiles and the criteria which defines a "standard" capital scale missile.

Nobody can prove a negative, so by definition they could not disprove your exotic missiles. I couldn't help but wonder where these Wonder-weapons would be in places like Solo Command.

Except I've already admitted that I merely speculated on one possible kind of missile. Defining the kind of warheads used is not neccessary in order for my argument to work. The fact that the "type" of "capital missile" that was purchased is vague is sufficent.

2) You seize on the sabotaged parts. Never mind Lusankya's demand would be low due to lack of action (they imply in the story Lusankya does not generally do convoy duty.)

Funnyn how you toss out any implications I make from the novels, yet you aren't shy about stating the implications you draw from the novels as if they're fact. (like your "standard" capital warheads.)

Never mind that if the Imperials got even a bit of competence, they'd have checked out the systems and eliminated poor parts. So while the bad parts will cost them credits, many of them would not make it onto the ship.

I thought it was already agreed that incompetence was one of the relevant factors to the Lusankya incident.

Never mind between your sabotage, you have to arrange for something like an order of magnitude's worth of decreased shield performance.

Sort of like your assumption that Drysso would deliberately weaken shields many orders of magnitude on one side to allow "standard" missiles to drop the shields?

You are not talking getting a ship below optimal, which should be possible. You are talking nearly crippling it, and there's no evidence such a pervasive effect took place.

No, I'm saying that a good many unconventional tactics had to be put into play in order to have a chance at defeating the Lusankya (thus indicating how extraordinarily unusual the event was.) Tactics that are supported by the book(s) themselves, in fact.

Of course, again, no one can prove a negative.

Assuming you've been actually been asked to prove a negative. To my knowledge I have not asked you to do so.

It is not the quotes. It is what you've done with them.

No worse than anything done to reconcile discrpancies with blaster weaponry, the Endor Holocaust (Remember Kyp Durron landing on Endor?), or the Executor/Super-class issue. Maybe you forgot that dialogue and text are (unlike visuals) always open to interpretation.

As for 'what I've done', I've done the best with what I have, like any analyst would do, rather than ignore it because I find the evidence itself distasteful. Gee, what a heretic I am.

As for my theory, it can work IN conjunction or independently. It is not in contradiction to you. It shows my preferance character solutions to continuity problems, rather than inventing exotic missiles or other one-time tech. Characters are more malleable and variable than equipment. Whenever possible, I also try not to assume the enemy's equipment is near dead.

I didnt need to invent any "one time tech" or "exotic missiles." You've exaggerated one bit of unneccessary and side speculation into being a core requirement to my arggument. And I'm not "assuming" the equipment is near dead. I'm assuming that they had sabotaged/weakened equipment. How is that exactly problematic when the book itself discussed the same idea as a potential tactic, exactly?

Besides, so what? I can just as easily dismiss sabotage (its not a crucial element, its simply another side factor, just like incompetence or the "mass fire" tactic, or the Freedom.)

Actually, he ordered a Shield Repair. Shield allocation is a standard procedure.

Not quite. Waroen told Drysso first that he could reestablish the bow shields by deliberately weakening the other shields. Drysso told him to do it.

You say this and you don't suspect he might just have reinforced the dorsal shield surfaces to reduce that effect?

No, I've admitted that that is possible (and it doesn't nullify anything I've said in the least, incidentally.) already. All I've pointed out is that you appear to be assuming that he substantially drained the shields on one (if not most) facings to reinforce one other. (For all the good it would have done, since the Freedom was above and in frfont of the Lusankya - after the first torpedo/missile salvo, the Freedom raked the unprotected bows with its weapons.)

I generated tactics, which are just ways of using established equipment and which anyone can cook up on the spot (though some are more skiflful than others, with Drysso near the bottom.) You generated entirely new weapons, and a scenario where the SSD is near dead even before the battle started, rather than just slightly suboptimum.

There you go exaggerating my argument again. Just how closely have you been paying attention to what I've been saying, exactly?

Finally, for TLC, the problem is that in that critical junction, IR is basically unopposed, because TLC does not cover that part at all. They cover the plan in extremely general terms, and then there's a scene switch, and when you come back a Golan's dead.

Whereas in Isard's Revenge you have... a single attack on one Golan platform (when there were four.) Gee. that's not exactly a comprehensive representation of that part of the battle either now, is it?
Or is it that you consider *only* what happens in IR to be representative of what happened?

Most of your statement works fine on TLC. But Isard Revenge certainly tries hard to kill your conclusion.

Bullshit. IR is at best one quarter of that overall part of the battle. Or are you seriously suggesting that a dozen X-wings and a pairo f Assault Frigates took out all four platforms singlehandedly?

1) You are going to have to make the Initial Penetration Equation work without the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star. It is durn clear that the two ships didn't make engagement position until after the torp attack. They did a good finishing job, after the shields were cracked.

So you assume the Rebels only dispatched a pair of assault frigates to supporrt... why? We don't know the extent of the support. For that matter, we don't know whether this platform was the first attacked, ,or whether it was attacked after the others. (And I like how you ignore the possibility that long range fire could have been directed at the Golans - I suppose we're supposed to think that stationary targets were out of range of Ackbar's ships.

2) There was in fact, no direct evidence that Aves people made any significant contribution on the mentioned Golan Station.

Actually, in Isard's Revenge Wedge mentions that they have "friends coming out"

In fact, they might as well have disappeared.

Going back on their word to Antilles. Gee, I'm sure Karrde wouldn't care about one of his associates going back on a promise. (These are teh same smugglers who raided Bilbringi before, remember, and assisted in the battle against the Peremptory and Judicator.)

Wedge Antilles told them the Golan is theirs, without mention of the smugglers. One would think if they were both after the same station, some plan would be made at coordinating their efforts. The entire attack was made without a single reference to them, not even a sighting.

Which means of course, they must have done absolutely nothing even though they said they would.

Ackbar then credits the thing to them, without a single word of the 'independent resistance group' (Wedge's chosen euphemism for the smugglers) that had been assisting. I suppose they must have been attacking one of the other Golans - with unknown success.

Possibly, yes. Or maybe Aves wanted it that way, since the whole point of keeping their presence secret was lack of trust of Ackbar. Or do you think Ackbar would fail to press the issue about this group to Antilles?

3) So at the end of the day, a mere 16 starfighter torpedoes downed the Golan's shields for good, and really their first salvo was already penetrating. I still can't believe that thing was compared to an ImpStar.

It said "Imperial Star Destroyer", not "Imperial-class".

4) If the thing was designed to go against starfighters and small ships, doesn't that mean it should do well against anything Aves smugglers threw at it? They are after all, in that range it was optimized for.

Yes, but that means that Aves' fleet is ineffective... how? Wedge didn't think their contribution would be insignificant.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Except I don't recall it saying "standard" launchers (whatever the hell those are.) "Capital ship" proton torpedoes and concussion missiles can cover quite a wide spectrum.

In lack of other modifiers, standard is generally assumed. If I tell you to walk over to me, you would probably choose to walk at your 'standard' speed - the speed you most usually do.

If there is no standard, but a wide variety of weapons of every possible make and function, it would be hard to buy things.
"I want 300 antiship missiles."
"What kind do you want? I've got Shipwrecks, Harpoons, Exocets, Kelts, Kitchens ... all with different characteristics in every respect. Or should I just pick up 10 each for you?"

There does seem to be a kind of standardization. The concussion missiles for antiship use employed in the VSD-I, Executor, and the various NR vessels which choose to employ concussion missiles all have the same rating of '9D.' Capital Ship Use Proton torpedoes are 6D+1. Starfighter protorps are 9D on the 'Starfighter' scale.

That implies there is something of a standard when it comes to yield for particular purposes. They even seem to have the same range (60 space units for the Capital level concussions.) Yeah, there isn't a standard, all right.

Connor wrote:Except I admit freely that it may not be as I speculated (You do remember I was speculating, ,right?) Fortunately for me, its not crucial to my argument in any way. (I could just as easily assume they were modified warheads like Jedi "Shadow Bombs" or something else. It still makes no difference, exceept maybe to emphasize further just how unconventional Antilles tactics were.)

Look, so do you want to claim Exotic Weapons or not?

Since I told you standard level weapons won't cut the mustard, to make your plan work, by definition you have to go out of Standard. In other words, to the Exotic.

Connor wrote:Wow, they targeted and destroyed all its weapons and shields. The ship itself was still intact, including most internal systems (they had prisoners to rescue, remember?)

How does that change the fact the ship was already neutralized, and if the Rebels so wished, could take it apart piece by piece at leisure?

They had a demonstrated difficulty tracking all the torpedoes (Waroen revised his figures at least four times.)

1) That sounds like to me like there was a slight difference in launch timing. I mean, not all the fighters and freighters were at the exact same range. To execute any kind of TOT attack, that means some will launch a little earlier than others.
2) Even a possible tracking difficulty does not grant you license to randomly add torpedoes. At this rate, we can rationalize this using this absurdity, "They only managed to see 80 out of 1000 missiles, so really a thousand missiles hit."

Connor wrote:Plus there is a small fact the shields held for several seconds - do you seriously want me to believe that the detonations of those torpedoes were sustained? (It may in fact suggest that local penetrations were achieved, and that warheads slipped through to destroy generators, which would be consistent with the "Mass fire" tactic.)

It was "a second or two." That means the attack may not even be as well-coordinated as we'd like. And enough local penetrations to allow enough others to kill off the generators sounds like good news to you?

Connor wrote:Yes, and it would also inflict tremendous damage on the huull in the process (In fact, hundreds should rather heavily damage the ship by that logic. Gee, you're doing a great job of fixing the contradiction at this rate. And what about the fact repeated volleys of hundreds of warheads were considered neccessary to destroy the Lusankya?)

Don't shoot the messenger, Connor. When a rationalization doesn't work, it doesn't work. Me getting out of your way does not really make it work.

The other hundreds of missiles would apprerently not only neutralize her, but utterly ANNIHILATE her. Or did you not notice the part where it said

P.291 wrote:'subsequent volleys would consume the Lusankya utterly and throughoutly.

Besides, we know Stackpole can't maintain continuity across a page of his own. I mean, if your starboard weapons were 'shot,' but you have 'most' of your port weapons, and you choose to engage a ship more powerful than you are, you would engage with your shot off starboard weapons? Really.

Sadly, the above is no joke. Read P.314-315.

Connor wrote:The Lusankya was already rolling before the Rogues launched their first volleys. And the gunners were firing on the Rogues without problem. How would you explain this if, as you say, the Freedom is the greater threat?

And obviously the roll wasn't quite completed yet, so they are still out of elevation. If I were the Freedom, I'd work very hard into staying into any blind spot available myself.

Connor wrote:The suffered some severe wear and tear escaping from Coruscant, and the occupation of Thyferra is another unknown. (In fact, its rather hard to say what the Lusankya did or did not do to require maintenance or repairs, since it spent alot of the time in the book off screen until the end.)

The repairs after Coruscant would probably be arranged for before Wedge even got set up. And there was no evidence it even moved for a training exercise.

Connor wrote:And you're establishing this arbitrary boundary point between the two... how?

Three guidelines for starters then:

1) Harmonization DOES NOT involve the creation of multiple phantoms.
2) Harmonization DOES NOT 'effectively void' a statement. For instance, the TIE 'solar panels' being reduced in function until they can only power something that is such a ridiculously useless fraction of the total power draw that it might as well be powered by the reactor as well.
3) Harmonization maximizes the use of relatively REASONABLE actions that might conceivably be done 'hidden.' It minimizes or eliminates making other people total idiots.

Everyone can sprout the phrase "Dismissal is the last answer."

It is an easy phrase in theory. In practice, over-rationalization causes someone, like you, to accept a totally groundless, sometimes even contradicted theory as proper.

And the fact I am making a Theory on my own suggests that I am willing to reserve a bit of hope for something other than dismissal. That has nothing to do with the probability of your rationalization working. If no good rationalization occurs, I will wait for one. If nothing good is forthcoming, I'd dismiss it. If a rationalization proposed by someone actually sounds good, I have no problem taking any source I've already rejected back out of its bin. But your rationalization DOES NOT apply, not in its present form.

Funnyn how you toss out any implications I make from the novels, yet you aren't shy about stating the implications you draw from the novels as if they're fact. (like your "standard" capital warheads.)

Some unspoken words are implied. Others don't exist. You've imagined entire events, entire sorties, entire missiles.

I thought it was already agreed that incompetence was one of the relevant factors to the Lusankya incident.

Let's not make them more incompetent than they have to be. See #3 of the Harmonization stuff above.

Sort of like your assumption that Drysso would deliberately weaken shields many orders of magnitude on one side to allow "standard" missiles to drop the shields?

Yes. Because we both have the same problem, we have the same orders of magnitude to cross in any plausible rationalization we can make.

Except mine involves a reasonable misjudgment due to lack of information (until the freighters fired, Drysso's data tells him only a few starfighters were threatening his flank and a wimpy War Cruiser on his butt) and a reasonable desire to minimize damage from his most dangerous known threat.

Yours involves countless violations of the most basic procedures to check the equipment you got over successive piles until enough degradation could hope to set in.

No, I'm saying that a good many unconventional tactics had to be put into play in order to have a chance at defeating the Lusankya (thus indicating how extraordinarily unusual the event was.) Tactics that are supported by the book(s) themselves, in fact.

Read Rule #2. You've just agreed to what I've said a few posts ago - The net probability of your scenario being replicated that you've effectively voided the scenario without admitting so.

Perhaps a Trekkie analogy might be effective:
You: "I have a plan to take out a Star Destroyer with a GCS."
Me (ever the skeptic to things like this): "You are the Nth person who said that. All N people failed. But go ahead."
You: "If we improve the power of photon torpedoes, we may be able to overwhelm the ISD shields."
Me: "Stop. I'm afraid your plan is absurd. You would have to increase the power by oh ... at the VERY least 5 orders of magnitude over where they currently are. More like 7 or 8. Since that's highly unlikely at best within the foreseeable future, your idea basically won't work."
You: "Wait. You've distorted my position. I never said anything as absurd as a sudden increase of 5 orders of magnitude. I just said 'improve.' Improvement is the natural trend of technology. The Federation does improve the power of its weapons, so my ideas are based on canon fact!"
Me: "But you said you want to improve your weapons to the point where they can defeat the ISD. To do that, based on current estimates, you would have to improve the weapons by 5 orders of magnitude, at least."
You: "Strawman. I never said I had to improve it by 5 orders of magnitude. I just said Improve. Are you even reading what I wrote? You just reject my idea because you think it is stupid."

Connor wrote:No worse than anything done to reconcile discrpancies with blaster weaponry, the Endor Holocaust (Remember Kyp Durron landing on Endor?), or the Executor/Super-class issue. Maybe you forgot that dialogue and text are (unlike visuals) always open to interpretation.

If you are comparing your so-called harmonization with that farce required for Kyp Durron, what does that say about the quality of your harmonization?

Connor wrote:As for 'what I've done', I've done the best with what I have, like any analyst would do, rather than ignore it because I find the evidence itself distasteful. Gee, what a heretic I am.

Connor, you've made up phantom missiles within the attack that you admit never showed up on any tracking screen that we know of! That's not exactly an analysis based on evidence.

Not quite. Waroen told Drysso first that he could reestablish the bow shields by deliberately weakening the other shields. Drysso told him to do it.

I think Shield Re-establishment attempts are not supposed to be part of normal Shield Allocation.

Whereas in Isard's Revenge you have... a single attack on one Golan platform (when there were four.) Gee. that's not exactly a comprehensive representation of that part of the battle either now, is it?
Or is it that you consider *only* what happens in IR to be representative of what happened?

It is not a comprehensive representation of the battle. It IS, however, a quite detailed account of a particular attack on a particular station.

Bullshit. IR is at best one quarter of that overall part of the battle. Or are you seriously suggesting that a dozen X-wings and a pairo f Assault Frigates took out all four platforms singlehandedly?

Yes, it is one-quarter, but the quarter we were shown had no smugglers. Therefore, you cannot insist they were attacking that station, when they had three others to go.

So you assume the Rebels only dispatched a pair of assault frigates to supporrt... why? We don't know the extent of the support. For that matter, we don't know whether this platform was the first attacked, ,or whether it was attacked after the others. (And I like how you ignore the possibility that long range fire could have been directed at the Golans - I suppose we're supposed to think that stationary targets were out of range of Ackbar's ships.

Phantom capital ships and phantom attacks which just happened to hit the one part of the battle that was described in detail without any mention of it?

See Rule #1.

Connor wrote:Actually, in Isard's Revenge Wedge mentions that they have "friends coming out"

That must be Stackpole's nod to the smugglers who are attacking another station, so as to stay out of our sight.

Connor wrote:Going back on their word to Antilles. Gee, I'm sure Karrde wouldn't care about one of his associates going back on a promise. (These are teh same smugglers who raided Bilbringi before, remember, and assisted in the battle against the Peremptory and Judicator.)

Again. Don't shoot the messenger. It ain't my fault Stackpole barely mentioned the smugglers!

Connor wrote:Which means of course, they must have done absolutely nothing even though they said they would.

More like they would be working out of our sight, where they won't create another contradiction.

Possibly, yes. Or maybe Aves wanted it that way, since the whole point of keeping their presence secret was lack of trust of Ackbar. Or do you think Ackbar would fail to press the issue about this group to Antilles?

You are speculating to dismiss evidence. There didn't even seem to be much time for Ackbar to ever 'press' Antilles about the true identity of the smuggler group. Or are you saying Wedge FALSIFIED his report, to eliminate all traces of participation by the smuggler group on the attack on 'his' Golan Station?

Connor wrote:It said "Imperial Star Destroyer", not "Imperial-class".

Having used this desperate dodge once myself, I know how cheap it is. Everyone knows that 99.99% of the time, the two terms are synonymous.

Yes, but that means that Aves' fleet is ineffective... how? Wedge didn't think their contribution would be insignificant.

In TLC, Wedge seems to think they might be able to kill one of the stations. That has nothing to do with them participating in Rogue Squadron's particular attack. I'm just pointing out if anything, mentioning the bias towards small vessels only hurts instead of helps your case.

Super-Gagme wrote:

consequences wrote:
Fuck that. WOTC makes Fucking X-Wing seem like the model of fairness when it comes to Starfighter vs. Capital Ship Combat. They have no idea what they are talking about, and their material flatly contradicts just about every naval fight ever written in one of the novels, or portrayed on-screen. Or do you honestly think that the laser cannons on a TF 'battleship' are more powerful than the Heavy TL batteries on an ISD?
WEG may have gotten a lot of things wrong, but they at least attempted to have some consistency. WOTC is just shitting all over the SW universe.

Yeah uhh that's bullshit. Sorry but just because you don't like something doesn't make it less official. SE > OT in terms of canon, and if you fucking hate the Prequels? Too bad, they are part of it too. Dumb ass. Disliking something doesn't refute it.

True, but on-screen fucking evidence does. Or did you get the special opium-dream edition of TPM where the TF battleship was taken out by one missile volley by the Naboo starfighters? (30+ novels + actual movie footage)= (WOTC is a bunch of Fucktards) In conclusion, Bite me.

consequences wrote:

Super-Gagme wrote:

consequences wrote:
Fuck that. WOTC makes Fucking X-Wing seem like the model of fairness when it comes to Starfighter vs. Capital Ship Combat. They have no idea what they are talking about, and their material flatly contradicts just about every naval fight ever written in one of the novels, or portrayed on-screen. Or do you honestly think that the laser cannons on a TF 'battleship' are more powerful than the Heavy TL batteries on an ISD?
WEG may have gotten a lot of things wrong, but they at least attempted to have some consistency. WOTC is just shitting all over the SW universe.

Yeah uhh that's bullshit. Sorry but just because you don't like something doesn't make it less official. SE > OT in terms of canon, and if you fucking hate the Prequels? Too bad, they are part of it too. Dumb ass. Disliking something doesn't refute it.

True, but on-screen fucking evidence does. Or did you get the special opium-dream edition of TPM where the TF battleship was taken out by one missile volley by the Naboo starfighters? (30+ novels + actual movie footage)= (WOTC is a bunch of Fucktards) In conclusion, Bite me.

Games still have a place in cannon. Because you can pull shit in X-Wing Alliance that is overridden by On Screen evidence does that mean we completely dis-regard XWA? No, we accept the parts that are not overidden (ie story and content not GAME MECHANICS) I think it has been previously established that GAME MECHANICS are not reliable sources of information because they are there for GAMEPLAY and BALANCE. You pretentious ass. In addition, this is not Movies vs WOTC this is WEG vs WOTC. WOTC > WEG because it holds the licenses and has/will over write WEG information.

In other words, regardless of WOTC's accuracy in portraying the SW universe, we are supposed to take their tripe as holy writ over WEG?
The only things I have seen WOTC do is neuter Capital ships and the Force, and cause a greater proliferation of Dark jedi than ever seen before. Oh, and making every alien race minor variations on the human theme, to a degree that Berman and Braga would be proud of. The story and content parts have been completely ripped off from WEG to begin with, so the only way to judge their efforts is to see how well they captured the feel of the SW universe, and in that they have failed miserably.

So what your defense basicly is "I don't like it so I'm going to ignore it"? I'll take that as your concession that WOTC holds greater official standing over WEG. Thanks.

Edit: Fixed a typo

I think it`s more like "From an objective POV, it sucks. So I'll ignore it".

Super-Gagme wrote:So what your defense basicly is "I don't like it so I'm going to ignore it"? I'll take that as your concession that WOTC holds greater official standing over WEG. Thanks.

Edit: Fixed a typo

You mean aside from the fact that they have put zero creative input into fleshing out the SW universe? Their idea of a sourcebook is stats, and a rehash of the novels(NJO sourcebook to be specific as the most blatant example, I'd really recommend not purchasing, as a great deal of the info that isn't a plot recap is printed in the Light side sourcebook). When the only thing that a company brings to the table is stats and gameplay, and those are clearly wrong, how am I supposed to take it seriously?

BTW, what part of "completely ripped off from WEG" sounded like a concession? If they don't change the material, how can it have greater standing over the identical material previously published?

The amount of weapons on a Victory-class Star Destroyer differs (no not damage) thus we have to rank them and WOTC > WEG standing on it.

Gagme, you're being an idiot; WOTC's possession of the license does not automatically grant all their information as greater than WEG--it doesn't become that until they intentionally retcon WEG materials directly.

By your logic, all Del Rey novels are more valid than Bantam novels. It is stupid.

All information must be weighed equally unless there is direct contradiction; and the stats of the RPGs are game mechanics, tweaked and designed for playability, in case you haven't realized.