Jedi vs. Zion

[Shinova]

Let me get something straight:


Anakin is inside the matrix so he's under the influence of the matrix's effects, right? He's not like outside the matrix's rules or anything?

[Ghost Rider]

Yet the difference is he has all his abilites. It isn't as if he's just jacked in and he a normal human thinking he's Anakin Skywalker.

Literally he is Anakin Skywalker...vs Neo...within their scope of abilities.

Stravo made it so we don't have Neo going...well alter directory Lightersaber.dll so it does the same damage as a piece of Kleenex.

[Darth Wong]

Let me get something straight:


Anakin is inside the matrix so he's under the influence of the matrix's effects, right? He's not like outside the matrix's rules or anything?

Only to the extent that he's in there. He retains all of his powers regardless of the normally applicable rules of the Matrix, which means that (among other things) he can call upon Force speed, rock-solid Force walls, and mind control. And controlling a mind as feeble as Keanu Reeves should be child's play. Moreover, he won't underestimate the opposition, since he comes in with prior intel, as per the OP. So any arguments based on the "he'll hold back" line of thinking are null and void.

[Connor MacLeod]

Let me get something straight:


Anakin is inside the matrix so he's under the influence of the matrix's effects, right? He's not like outside the matrix's rules or anything?

Only to the extent that he's in there. He retains all of his powers regardless of the normally applicable rules of the Matrix, which means that (among other things) he can call upon Force speed, rock-solid Force walls, and mind control. And controlling a mind as feeble as Keanu Reeves should be child's play. Moreover, he won't underestimate the opposition, since he comes in with prior intel, as per the OP. So any arguments based on the "he'll hold back" line of thinking are null and void.

And its quite possible that if pushed far enough, he could pull on either the light side or Dark Side... so its a moot point anyhow.

[D.Turtle]

Jedi can accelerate on the order of thousands of g's. Neo's outclassed.

Thousands of g's?! Where did that come from? I know that they can accelerate very quickly (going up to highway speeds in a split second), but thousands of g's?

Let's also not forget that Neo only has his powers inside The Matrix. Jedi have them both inside and outside. If a Jedi is getting his ass seriously kicked, he could simply exit The Matrix and kill Neo's physical body, and Neo couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Copout. The fight is supposed to compare Jedi and Zionists with their usual capabilities.

[Darth Wong]

Jedi can accelerate on the order of thousands of g's. Neo's outclassed.

Thousands of g's?! Where did that come from? I know that they can accelerate very quickly (going up to highway speeds in a split second), but thousands of g's?

I suspect he's referring to their ability to withstand thousands of Gs, as Anakin must have done when he fell from considerable distance onto Zam Wessel's airspeeder on Coruscant. The shock of impact onto her airspeeder (not to mention being dragged to her airspeed) would probably measure an extremely high acceleration, although I haven't calculated it.

[Lord of the Farce]

Copout. The fight is supposed to compare Jedi and Zionists with their usual capabilities.

Neo whacks Anakin, Anakin flies back and smashes wall behind him, Anakin comes back up and lops Neo's arm then head off.

[Connor MacLeod]

I suspect he's referring to their ability to withstand thousands of Gs, as Anakin must have done when he fell from considerable distance onto Zam Wessel's airspeeder on Coruscant. The shock of impact onto her airspeeder (not to mention being dragged to her airspeed) would probably measure an extremely high acceleration, although I haven't calculated it.

I suppose I can look at that later. Thanks for reminding me. Any indicators I should look for regarding distance?

We do know that the speeder Anakin stole was capable of a top acceleration of 70 gravities. Zam Wessel's speeder was unable to outrun it (nor was the other speeder able to catch up) so it must accelerate at approximately the same rate. Assuming top acceleration (Again, possible given the fact that Zam neither pulled away nor did Anakin catch up to Zam) - Anakin must have been capable of generating approximately 70 gees worth of acceleration.

[Crown]

I suppose I can look at that later. Thanks for reminding me. Any indicators I should look for regarding distance?

We do know that the speeder Anakin stole was capable of a top acceleration of 70 gravities. Zam Wessel's speeder was unable to outrun it (nor was the other speeder able to catch up) so it must accelerate at approximately the same rate. Assuming top acceleration (Again, possible given the fact that Zam neither pulled away nor did Anakin catch up to Zam) - Anakin must have been capable of generating approximately 70 gees worth of acceleration.

If you are talking about when Anakin 'landed' on Zam's speeder than perhaps the following could help;

It's reasonable to assume that Anakin was falling at terminal velocity (since he was falling for at least 5 seconds, and given that he had no trouble breathing the density of the air was close enough to sea level to be ignored). For a human body, terminal velocity is 150km/hr to 200km/hr. We will use the 150km/hr figure since he was falling 'spread eagle' and not in a 'pin drop' position.

So 150km/hr = 41.6 m/s.

Assume Anakin's mass is about 70kg (this is very generous considering his height), which will give us a momentum prior to impact with the speeder of;

P = m*v
P = 70 * 41.6
P = 2912 N/s

Now we solve for the Impulse that Anakin undergoes when he hits Zam's speeder, from memory it could not have been more than 1 sec deceleration time, and IIRC Zam's speeder hardly helped to break the fall. Remembering that Impulse is just Force diveded by time, we re-arrange to solve for the Force Anakin undergoes when hitting Zam's speeder. So;

F = m*a = ΔP/Δt = m*Δv/Δt

where Δv = u - v
u = initial velocity (41.6 m/s)
v = final veloctiy (0 m/s in the vertical plane)

Thus; Δv = 41.6 - 0 = 41.6 m/s

Δt = 1 sec (I will vary this up to 3 secs in order to be conservative)

F = m*Δv/Δt
F = 70*41.6/1
F = 2912 N or 296 gravities.

For 1 sec impulse, so which gives us a rough variance of;

970 N < F < 2912 N

Someone wanna double check my working, I kinda did them on the fly!

EDIT :: Changed the min and max force over, otherwise it woldn't make sense!!!!

[Crown]

Also, I just want to add, before people start nit-picking; keep in mind that I am being *very* generous to get these results, I suspect they would actually be, if anything, higher and not lower!

[Connor MacLeod]

I suppose I can look at that later. Thanks for reminding me. Any indicators I should look for regarding distance?

We do know that the speeder Anakin stole was capable of a top acceleration of 70 gravities. Zam Wessel's speeder was unable to outrun it (nor was the other speeder able to catch up) so it must accelerate at approximately the same rate. Assuming top acceleration (Again, possible given the fact that Zam neither pulled away nor did Anakin catch up to Zam) - Anakin must have been capable of generating approximately 70 gees worth of acceleration.

If you are talking about when Anakin 'landed' on Zam's speeder than perhaps the following could help;

It's reasonable to assume that Anakin was falling at terminal velocity (since he was falling for at least 5 seconds, and given that he had no trouble breathing the density of the air was close enough to sea level to be ignored). For a human body, terminal velocity is 150km/hr to 200km/hr. We will use the 150km/hr figure since he was falling 'spread eagle' and not in a 'pin drop' position.

So 150km/hr = 41.6 m/s.

Assume Anakin's mass is about 70kg (this is very generous considering his height), which will give us a momentum prior to impact with the speeder of;

P = m*v
P = 70 * 41.6
P = 2912 N/s

Now we solve for the Impulse that Anakin undergoes when he hits Zam's speeder, from memory it could not have been more than 1 sec deceleration time, and IIRC Zam's speeder hardly helped to break the fall. Remembering that Impulse is just Force diveded by time, we re-arrange to solve for the Force Anakin undergoes when hitting Zam's speeder. So;

F = m*a = ΔP/Δt = m*Δv/Δt

where Δv = u - v
u = initial velocity (41.6 m/s)
v = final veloctiy (0 m/s in the vertical plane)

Thus; Δv = 41.6 - 0 = 41.6 m/s

Δt = 1 sec (I will vary this up to 3 secs in order to be conservative)

F = m*Δv/Δt
F = 70*41.6/1
F = 2912 N or 296 gravities.

For 1 sec impulse, so which gives us a rough variance of;

2912 N < F < 970 N

Someone wanna double check my working, I kinda did them on the fly!

Interesting. I was going to measure the distance from the ITW:AOTC since we are given a nice visual representation of the event. We also know Coruscant's gravity (1.42x Earth's, I believe). He also fell for about 15-16 seconds, but no less than 10 seconds (as I measured it) I dont suppose that affects the calcs any? (I just watched the scene - I didn't have an easy time measuring the distance covered there.

Incidentally, I tried doing some rough estimates for Jedi "leaping" incidents involving Mace Windu in the Geonosian Arena and Anakin during the Dooku battle (when he saves Obi-Wan from being stabbed.) So far I estimate roughly 20-40 gees (in most respecst they covered betwen .3-.4 meters in one frame, assuming a frame rate of 24 FPS)

[Connor MacLeod]

oh yes, and momentum is measured in kg*m/s, whereas force is measured in newtons

[Crown]

Interesting. I was going to measure the distance from the ITW:AOTC since we are given a nice visual representation of the event. We also know Coruscant's gravity (1.42x Earth's, I believe). He also fell for about 15-16 seconds, but no less than 10 seconds (as I measured it) I dont suppose that affects the calcs any? (I just watched the scene - I didn't have an easy time measuring the distance covered there.

That would acutally change things, since terminal velocity is defined by definition when the 'downwards Force' (gravity*mass) = Drag. (I know you know this Connor, I am just letting others follow the conversation). And since Drag is given by;

D = Cd*0.5*ρ*V^2*S

If I can get a rough approx. of S (surface Area) for Anakin, and assume that ρ (density) is Earth standard sea level, and Cd (Coefficient of Drag) would be high, I can figure out the velocity... give me a few minutes to research this.

Incidentally, I tried doing some rough estimates for Jedi "leaping" incidents involving Mace Windu in the Geonosian Arena and Anakin during the Dooku battle (when he saves Obi-Wan from being stabbed.) So far I estimate roughly 20-40 gees (in most respecst they covered betwen .3-.4 meters in one frame, assuming a frame rate of 24 FPS)

Wouldn't suprise me in the slightest, to tell you the truth...

oh yes, and momentum is measured in kg*m/s, whereas force is measured in newtons

Hehe, I should have said Ns not N/s!!!!

EDIT :: Fixed the Drag equation.

[Connor MacLeod]

That would acutally change things, since terminal velocity is defined by definition when the 'downwards Force' (gravity*mass) = Drag. (I know you know this Connor, I am just letting others follow the conversation). And since Drag is given by;

D = Cd/0.5*ρ*V^2*S

If I can get a rough approx. of S (surface Area) for Anakin, and assume that ρ (density) is Earth standard sea level, and Cd (Coefficient of Drag) would be high, I can figure out the velocity... give me a few minutes to research this.

Sure thing: incidentally, to help you out

check out Anakin's height here:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... index.html

And yes, I do consider SW.com fairly accurate, since I did use Skywalkers height in some of my own scaling (and it as true to the information about Hamill's height I could find.)

If you wnat to be sure though, get Hayden Christiansen's height here:

http://www.goldenbeaus.com/hayden_christensen.shtm

I can tell ya its accurate though

I'd estiamte maybe 1.85 meters "tall" and maybe a meter or so across (with arms outstretched) which is kinda generous, considering that alot of that would be empty space.

Wouldn't suprise me in the slightest, to tell you the truth...

Nor me. It was rather consistent with Luke's "leap" out of the Carbon Freeze chamber in TESB as well (which may actually have been more closer to 50-60 gees even... comparable to the linear acceleration Mike conservatively estimated in TPM.)

Hehe, I should have said Ns not N/s!!!!

Only if you meant to talk force. You listed momentum I believe, which means you should either have changed it to read "force", or used "kg*m/s" to measure momentum

[Crown]

Hehe, I should have said Ns not N/s!!!!

Only if you meant to talk force. You listed momentum I believe, which means you should either have changed it to read "force", or used "kg*m/s" to measure momentum

Force is Newtons (N) which is kgm/s^2. Momentum is m*v = kgm/s.

Ergo momentum is N*s (kgm/s^2 * s = kgm/s)

[Crown]

Okay I've got it;

D = Cd*0.5*ρ*S*V^2

Let K (constant) = Cd*0.5*ρ*S as these won't change. So;

D = K*V^2.

Now for Earth conditions, when terminal velocity is reached D = F (where F = ma);

F = D = K*V^2

70*9.81 = K*41.6

therefore K = 0.397.

Now since K is a constant for Anakin (it won't change), we can solve for the terminal velocity in Coruscant's higher gravity which is 1.42*standard Earth's (9.81);

D = K*V^2

70*9.81*1.42 = 0.397*V^2

Rearranging and solving for V;

V^2 = 70*9.81*1.42/0.397

V = 49m/s

Now we can go back and find the force exerted on Anakin when he hit Zam's speeder;

1143 N < F < 3430 N

(Exactly the same method as in the first post, just using the new velocity)

I would at this stage like to point out how extremely generous I am being here, since nearly all skydiving websites list terminal velocity for a human as 120mph (54m/s) with arms extended in the spread eagle position and not my initial assumption of 41.6m/s!!!!

If I was to use that figure (and feel free to do so, I am just too lazy at the moment) the Force Anakin absorbs on his landing is even higher!!!!!

EDIT :: swapped the min and max Force (from left to right) so that the variance can make sense! (Sorry)

[D.Turtle]

How many g's would that be (I don't know how to calculate it myself)?

[D.Turtle]

Note to self: Think, then write ...

If I figured it right (just divide the force through 9.81), then that would be between 350 and 116 g's.

Granted, this is a very generous estimate, but far from thousands of g's (still amazing though).

So, this is the amount of force that he can survive - but not the speed that he is capable of moving (wasn't that around 50 or so g's?).

This would be (IMHO) still a lot less than the speed that Neo shows at the end of Reloaded (I did not calculate this, so please do not ask for any calculations - it is simply the impression that Reloaded gave me).

[Ghost Rider]

Just as a matter of note...you do know he never started said ability immediately either...not against Smith(would've been real helpful), not to rescue Morph(he took his damn dear time in that particular excersise), and he left the Arcitect's chambers but that is the only time we see from him walking out the door and next we see is him flying out. We don't see the usual start up but then again we do not see the entire scene either.

But to presume he started that way...might as well ignore the other three time he's used this power because it's incovient and provides us a much more accurate look at his flight ability.

Everytime he utilized his flight power he took at least 5-6 seconds of start up. Literally when he charges up...Anakin snaps his neck because Neo is essentially standing there like a deer in headlights.

[Darth Wong]

Note to self: Think, then write ...

If I figured it right (just divide the force through 9.81), then that would be between 350 and 116 g's.

Granted, this is a very generous estimate, but far from thousands of g's (still amazing though).

It assumes 1 sec deceleration time, which is extremely conservative. The accurate number is probably much higher.

So, this is the amount of force that he can survive - but not the speed that he is capable of moving (wasn't that around 50 or so g's?).

This would be (IMHO) still a lot less than the speed that Neo shows at the end of Reloaded (I did not calculate this, so please do not ask for any calculations - it is simply the impression that Reloaded gave me).

Do not waste our time by comparing objective data to subjective impressions, dumb-ass. If that's how you typically debate, go to one of those webboards where people think "science" has too many big words.

[Stravo]

Everytime he utilized his flight power he took at least 5-6 seconds of start up. Literally when he charges up...Anakin snaps his neck because Neo is essentially standing there like a deer in headlights.

I just saw the movie last night, more like 2-3 seconds before he was airborne. (Burly Brawl and the first battle with the agents were the only times I bothered to count) Also in the movie when flying he is outrunning the blast of the explosives lining that level of the building so that gives us a starting level to his acceleration as he went from 0 to whatever speed it takes to outrun an explosive shockwave in the span of a few seconds.

[Ghost Rider]

Everytime he utilized his flight power he took at least 5-6 seconds of start up. Literally when he charges up...Anakin snaps his neck because Neo is essentially standing there like a deer in headlights.

I just saw the movie last night, more like 2-3 seconds before he was airborne. (Burly Brawl and the first battle with the agents were the only times I bothered to count) Also in the movie when flying he is outrunning the blast of the explosives lining that level of the building so that gives us a starting level to his acceleration as he went from 0 to whatever speed it takes to outrun an explosive shockwave in the span of a few seconds.

That gives a better idea of acceleration...but it's still the start up time is why I don't consider it a combat power. I mean he has immense velocity but the fact he does stand there is not a good usage especially against one who can reach out and break something in him with less time.

[Stravo]

Everytime he utilized his flight power he took at least 5-6 seconds of start up. Literally when he charges up...Anakin snaps his neck because Neo is essentially standing there like a deer in headlights.

I just saw the movie last night, more like 2-3 seconds before he was airborne. (Burly Brawl and the first battle with the agents were the only times I bothered to count) Also in the movie when flying he is outrunning the blast of the explosives lining that level of the building so that gives us a starting level to his acceleration as he went from 0 to whatever speed it takes to outrun an explosive shockwave in the span of a few seconds.

That gives a better idea of acceleration...but it's still the start up time is why I don't consider it a combat power. I mean he has immense velocity but the fact he does stand there is not a good usage especially against one who can reach out and break something in him with less time.

The fact is that we have never seen him use flight as a combat ability. He uses it to travel or escape but not to fight. He did not fly against the Smiths, in the Chateau, against the agents in the beginning, against Seraph, against the Twins on the Highway. In fact we can estimate his acceleration from that scene as I think Neo is something like 800 miles from the highway when he starts flying, calculate the length of time of the highway chase and you have a good idea of his speed.

I wholeheartdely agree that flight cannot be a combat power as we did not see it used as such in ANY fight in Reloaded or the Revolutions Trailer (Neo is running down the street towards Smith not flying)

[Sektor31]

Neo vs. Anakin...close battle but I'd think Neo would win. Let's assume for this battle Anakin is limited into the Matrix, which also means he can't get outside and kill Neo's body.

Jedi Precog can only go so far. At the end of Reloaded Neo went so fast that the buildings around him were shattering. Because of this, Anakin can move and predict all he wants but the wind would be flying at what seems to be WAY above hurricane-force. That's one thing that would count against him since I don't think we've ever seen Jedi fight in the middle of a storm that magnitude. Neo would also be going extremely fast, so Anakin would have a tough time targeting his force abilities.

Also, if Anakin DOES manage to force-choke or some other thing like that, Neo survived pistol rounds being shot into him. Chokes wouldn't be that hard to ignore.

[Ghost Rider]

So if we use flight which Stravo provided a time frame(it's been a while but I'll take the 2-3 seconds) to which Neo POWERS up(ie...stands there and does nothing but make a stance of some sort) Anakin isn't going to TK anything and just let him suddenly go up, up, and away?

Please...Neo will have him neck snapped easily within that time frame. We've seen Jedi react faster and use TK in less time frame with much heavier objects then a human body.

Neo flying is the LAST thing he should do in a combat situation, given it does leave him vulnerable.