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But how is this any different? I mean, if you watch a movie about Operation Market Garden you won't care because it does not change the outcome of the war?

What about a movie about German soldiers on the Western Front in WW1? Not only do they change nothing but they even lose in the end.

Purple wrote:No, the Neimodians and every other living member of the CIS are effectively the lowest level sentient members of the CIS. The droids are just tools. A good comparison would be to say that the Neimodians and the others are the Storm Troopers and the droids are the rifles used to shoot at our hero.

One question, have you watched the movies or the CG series lately? I'm only asking because your assumptions here are so completely off it's not funny. No, the Neimodians are not low level stormtroopers, neither are the Muun, the Skakoans or any other species that makes up the CIS. Both the movies and the series treat them as highly important and valuable, they're not found fighting on the frontlines and when they get into trouble, as when Gunray or Tambor are captured, there're always efforts undertaken to ransom or break them out. It's not until the very end of the Clone Wars that they're found expandable so yes, whatever brings and keeps them in the war is something worth exploring.

Keep in mind, it's Confederation of Independent Systems. Gunray, Tambor, Hill and co. are heads of individually powerful factions and in that function by far outrank the named imperial officers we get to see in the OT like Piett and Jerjerrod story-wise.

So I hereby request a stop to your rather unfitting analogies.

They did seem to be such in TPM. But yes, point conceded, I was wrong on that one.

Purple wrote: What about a movie about German soldiers on the Western Front in WW1? Not only do they change nothing but they even lose in the end.

The difference is the focus of the story and its theme. The battles or even the war itself is not the focus of "All Quiet on the Western Front" and a number of other WWI stories, it's about the soldiers themselves. They know they are in a tragic situation and we feel for them. They are the protagonists while the war itself is the antagonist.

The Battle of Naboo could have been a bit more consequential like the battles of the OT. For story purposes, did Palpatine really need to become Chancellor at that time? 10 years pass with not much indication of him doing anything terribly important in that position that he couldn't have done as a Senator and as Darth Sidious. He could have lost the election due to the Naboo victory causing him to hate the meddling Jedi even more and during the 10 years he works behind the scenes to succeed in getting into power in the second film.

Ronindave, bear in mind that the prequels were, from the start, intended to be a different perspective on the SW setting overall. I remember even before TPM came out that George Lucas said there would not be as much focus on characters beyond Anakin and his fall to becoming Vader. It was going to be more of a broad canvas, looking at the society and setting of the Old Republic, how the political crisis came to be, and the collapse of the Old Republic. He said it would be more soap-opera-ish and political, and I think at one point he even indicated that, on a character level, it might come off as kind of "dry" in comparison.

The prequels were as advertised, a look at the Old Republic and how it came to fall. It seems most of your complaints come from the fact that it wasn't as "personally" involving as the OT --but it wasn't supposed to be; and also bad writing and directing. Of the two, I find the accusation of "bad writing and directing" to carry a lot of weight. It was badly written and directed, and actors that we know can act well, and we've seen act well in other shows, could not save the dialogue and directing choices made. On that I can understand some criticism.

But the criticism of "the movies aren't what *I* wanted them to be" is just personal taste or even nit-pickery.

I recognize a lot of flaws in the prequels, and would have liked seeing things done differently, but the idea that the heroes in TPM got distracted by Sidious's plan isn't one of the complaints-- rather than "wasting our time with a plotline that means nothing" it sets up Sidious as a manipulator who can masterfully misdirect and flummox a society due to its own inherent, built-in flaws and sense of "nothing can truly go wrong" inertia. The Old Rep was a society that has been on automatic pilot for years, it seems, with no real challenge to face it except those easily stage-managed to boost the random politician to stardom as he sets out to ride his career into the sunset. Even people who liked the Old Republic recognized that it was flawed and needed "something". Sidious fooled the Republic, he fooled the CIS, he fooled the Jedi because they'd all become set in their ways and never saw the potentially disastrous results of the hall of manipulations they were going down.

That, and another reasons I liked the prequels was for purely technical reasons: it put ot rest beyond any further argument that, yes, the Star Wars setting is a huge fucking Galaxy rather than a big star system or small band of local systems; hyperspace is wicked fast, and the scales of power and energy being talked about are of immense proportions. So that helps offset the disappointment over the lack of character depth, poor writing, etc.

Coyote wrote:I recognize a lot of flaws in the prequels, and would have liked seeing things done differently, but the idea that the heroes in TPM got distracted by Sidious's plan isn't one of the complaints-- rather than "wasting our time with a plotline that means nothing" it sets up Sidious as a manipulator who can masterfully misdirect and flummox a society due to its own inherent, built-in flaws and sense of "nothing can truly go wrong" inertia.

I think the problem is just that this happens before we get to the climatic battle. I think storytelling and writing-wise having Palpatine ascend to chancellorship should have come as a result of the final confrontation because that would drive the point home much better. Regardless of how hard the heroes fight, the Republic is doomed and though victorious they only helped speeding its downfall up. Imagine the final scene of TPM, instead of a retread of ANH's ending, being Palpatine's inauguration, him standing in the middle of the senate, left hand on the SW equivalent of the Bible, right hand in the air swearing that he "...will serve the Republic and restore peace and order to the galaxy" -ending credits.

Metahive wrote: I think the problem is just that this happens before we get to the climatic battle. I think storytelling and writing-wise having Palpatine ascend to chancellorship should have come as a result of the final confrontation because that would drive the point home much better. Regardless of how hard the heroes fight, the Republic is doomed and though victorious they only helped speeding its downfall up. Imagine the final scene of TPM, instead of a retread of ANH's ending, being Palpatine's inauguration, him standing in the middle of the senate, left hand on the SW equivalent of the Bible, right hand in the air swearing that he "...will serve the Republic and restore peace and order to the galaxy" -ending credits.

Now that would have made for a more poignant ending for the film which would also fit for the whole series. It could have been shot in a Godfather-esque style flashing back and forth from the battle to the inauguration. Then we would see the pointlessness of their struggle but we would feel sympathy for these tragic heroes.

Ronindave, bear in mind that the prequels were, from the start, intended to be a different perspective on the SW setting overall. I remember even before TPM came out that George Lucas said there would not be as much focus on characters beyond Anakin and his fall to becoming Vader. It was going to be more of a broad canvas, looking at the society and setting of the Old Republic, how the political crisis came to be, and the collapse of the Old Republic. He said it would be more soap-opera-ish and political, and I think at one point he even indicated that, on a character level, it might come off as kind of "dry" in comparison.

I don't like the Prequels because on one hand they don't do justice to the Original Trilogy in continuity, characterization (Darth Vader was a whiny child-killing selfish prat?), and tone. I also don't them because as films in themselves they fail in delivering an effective and engaging story for a number of reasons.

The Prequels as they were shot are all over place with theme and tone. They are very inconsistent. The overall tone of the Prequels should have been tragic and any victory by the heroes bittersweet - kind of like that at the end of Seven Samurai where the peasants win but the Samurai realize they lost. As for the focus on Anakin, that is hard to swallow because the first film has him doing very little. He certainly isn't the main focus of TPM and he's too young to be of interest for this kind of story. We need an older ANakin who can be torn by decisions and questioning his actions and those around him something kids don't do - this is why kids are rarely if ever the focus of a drama.

Palpatine unintentionally became the main focus of the Prequels more so than Anakin. He is what moves everything forward to the OT. There is very little any character could have done to stop him mainly because everyone is too stupid to delve deeper into the matter. IMHO he is the only interesting character in the Prequels because he is the only one who doesn't react to the plot but creates most of the situations for the other characters to react to. This is why the way the story was presented to us that we needed more Palpatine onscreen to learn more about him and his plottings. As it is we don't directly see what results the heroes have on his plans - do they set him back? Do they unwittingly advance his plans? Do they cause him to have to adapt to a changing situation? Or as it seems in the Prequels, do their actions have no effect whatsoever on his plans?

But back to Anakin, if he was suppose to be the main focus, there should have been more opportunities given to show his heroic side. As he was presented he just comes off as selfish, creepy, arrogant, weak-willed, murderous. There are very few redeemable qualities in him to be a truly tragic hero plus he murders women and children. His ambitions aren't very well portrayed either. "I want more but I know I shouldn't." Could you be a bit more vague, there? And that little hissy fit in ATOC of bringing people back from the dead just sounds like something a 5 year old would say.

At the end of ROTS Anakin becomes practically like an afterthought in Palpatine's great plan. All he does is sucker punch Mace Windu while the Emperor was playing possum for ANakin's benefit, kill the younglings, and then tie up the loose end of the Clone wars by killing the Separatist leaders. Makes you think - what was the big deal? Why did he need Anakin? I originally thought that Anakin's fall would have been more crucial to Palpatine's plans and the end of the Jedi such as when Obi-wan in ANH says - "Vader helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi." - unless some of the younglings hid behind the sofa, this didn't happen.

At the end of ROTS Anakin becomes practically like an afterthought in Palpatine's great plan. All he does is sucker punch Mace Windu while the Emperor was playing possum for ANakin's benefit,

Looks who's making shit up. There's no evidence Palpatine was faking it.

kill the younglings, and then tie up the loose end of the Clone wars by killing the Separatist leaders.

And other Jedi, as shown in ROTS -something you would have noticed if you didn't have your head up your ass while watching it.

Makes you think - what was the big deal? Why did he need Anakin?

I guess thinking is too much for you. Palpatine doesn't really "need" Anakin, though recruiting him was a major coup. Out of the six Star Wars movies, five make a point of the exploitative relationship between Sith Lords: The senior partner is willing and eager to throw his apprentice to the lions if he thinks he can find a new one, and the junior partner is willing and eager to bump off his boss to take his place. Something else you would have noticed if you didn't have your head up your ass while watching the movies.

I originally thought that Anakin's fall would have been more crucial to Palpatine's plans and the end of the Jedi such as when Obi-wan in ANH says - "Vader helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi." - unless some of the younglings hid behind the sofa, this didn't happen.

So storming the Jedi Temple, killing numerous Jedi inside, sending a rally signal across the galaxy ordering the scattered Jedi to return to the Temple (and certain death), saving Palpatine from being killed by Mace Windu (and in the process killing one of the most powerful Jedi), and passing along to Padme (a senator) word that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow not only Palpatine but the Senate as well doesn't count as helping the Emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi? Were you expecting Anakin to kill them all in single combat or something? Or are you really just a trolling fucktard?

You are one dumb twat.

Elfdart wrote:

At the end of ROTS Anakin becomes practically like an afterthought in Palpatine's great plan. All he does is sucker punch Mace Windu while the Emperor was playing possum for ANakin's benefit,

Looks who's making shit up. There's no evidence Palpatine was faking it.

You're right nothing except that when Anakin attacks Mace suddenly a "weak" Palpatine launches his bolts into Windu then gets up easy-peasy despite saying he was so weak.

kill the younglings, and then tie up the loose end of the Clone wars by killing the Separatist leaders.

And other Jedi, as shown in ROTS -something you would have noticed if you didn't have your head up your ass while watching it.

He killed other Jedi other than helping to kill Mace and the younglings? Would it have hurt to have shown that? All we see is him igniting his lightsaber about to kill the kids.

Makes you think - what was the big deal? Why did he need Anakin?

I guess thinking is too much for you. Palpatine doesn't really "need" Anakin, though recruiting him was a major coup. Out of the six Star Wars movies, five make a point of the exploitative relationship between Sith Lords: The senior partner is willing and eager to throw his apprentice to the lions if he thinks he can find a new one, and the junior partner is willing and eager to bump off his boss to take his place. Something else you would have noticed if you didn't have your head up your ass while watching the movies.

Your obsession with my ass is getting a bit worrisome but again Anakin is not a Maul or even a Dooku. He is our main character (supposedly) and storywise needs to be more important.

I originally thought that Anakin's fall would have been more crucial to Palpatine's plans and the end of the Jedi such as when Obi-wan in ANH says - "Vader helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi." - unless some of the younglings hid behind the sofa, this didn't happen.

So storming the Jedi Temple, killing numerous Jedi inside,

something we don't see. Only him about to kill kids.

saving Palpatine from being killed by Mace Windu (and in the process killing one of the most powerful Jedi),

Nope he cut off his hand then Palpatine finished him off. Anakin just sucker-punched him when he wasn't expecting it.

You are one dumb twat.

You are so funny

We see Obi-Wan and Yoda searching the temple, finding the bodies of adult Jedi, and Yoda says they were killed by a lightsabre. Is that not obvious enough for you? Do you think the 501st were equipped with lightsabres?

Terralthra wrote:We see Obi-Wan and Yoda searching the temple, finding the bodies of adult Jedi, and Yoda says they were killed by a lightsabre. Is that not obvious enough for you? Do you think the 501st were equipped with lightsabres?

Those must have been pretty bad Jedi to be taken down by one guy with a light saber. Probably had the same quality of training as the 3 Palpatine easily disposed of in his office.

Did Palpypus really need Anakin for that? With the whoever-first, there were more than enough clones to take them out. The clones had no problem taking out most of the Jedi elsewhere. And of course using a few missiles on the temple never occurred to them because we needed to have the Anakin killing kids scene to establish his baddity

While I think that the Windu/Palpatine fight scene sucks ASS, the actual credentials of the Jedi who went to apprehend him weren't slouches.

As for the temple, the later propaganda is that the Jedi incited a rebellion, and that the 501st Legion moved in to "restore order".

It would be nice though to have a definitive Imperial propaganda on when Anakin died. We had him dying in the Jedi Temple from Rise of the Dark Lord but no mention whether he was fighting on behalf of the 501st or the Jedi. Just "defending" the temple.

Still, it would help explain Red Leader worship of Anakin Skywalker if Anakin had died fighting the Stormtroopers.

I think the scene with him just powering up his light saber actually served much better than had he been shown doing the deed. The scene just has so much more strength that way.

Also, I do think that Palpatine sent him there to do just that. He needed to sever all ties with the Jedi Order and confirm to him self and Palpatine that he had truly crossed over to the dark side. He had to do that one thing that allows no going back.

Purple wrote:I think the scene with him just powering up his light saber actually served much better than had he been shown doing the deed. The scene just has so much more strength that way.

I don't mean we need to see him killing the kids - I mean fighting any other Jedi that were in the temple.

He had to do that one thing that allows no going back.

Well he certainly did that but it kind of makes Padme and Luke's belief there was still some good in him ring rather hollow. He killed kids. Make no mistake about the ramifications of that. He slaughtered children. Killing grown Jedi who can at least fight back is one thing but having Anakin cut down a bunch of defenseless kids over the vague hope Palypatine would help him in keeping his wife from dying is pretty reprehensible.

That scene tells you how far he has fallen. If anything it makes that scene with Padme even more tragic. I think we can both agree that taken together those two were one of the highlights of the movie.

Here is my interpretation of Palpatine's plan in the movie, and this is up for speculation but pretty much anyone can go along with what you like. It's pick and choose. Also, please bear in mind that I'm going off only what happened in the movies, as I have not read any of the books, so if there is critical information to be found there, you are free to point it out. Thank you.



The Phantom Menace: Senator Palpatine gets the idea that he might can take control of the entire galaxy, as he has been taught to strive for since the days of his Sith training. He knows that corporations and greed have been chipping away at the actual power of the Senate, and that if enough money backs any political agenda, or a good sympathy vote, he can worm his way into power. But he needs someone to cause a crisis, and something that he personally can use. So he hatches the plan to get Viceroy Nute Gunray to send his droid army to Naboo, which has no standing army and would be a walk in the park. He bargains and says that if they can legalize the invasion, the Trade Federation would actually have a voting member, rather than just a representative, in the senate (assuming they don't have one already).

The Viceroy agrees and deploys his army. Palpatine's real plan is to declare the Trade Federation's actions illegal, since they're doing it in an attempt to get a vote and thus stall future plans to tax the outer rim trade routes. He is planning to wait until the Trade Federation announces the invasion and subsequent treaty to declare that it is an unlawful invasion and demand the Chancellor act immediately. If the Chancellor does nothing or, worse, his plans fail, Palpatine will call a vote of No Confidence and have him ousted, riding a wave of sympathy into office while probably leaving the Trade Federation where it is. However, the Chancellor sends two Jedi to deal with the situation, which puts Palpatine's plans on hold briefly. If the Trade Federation had killed the Jedi, they'd be killing the Chancellor's appointed ambassadors, and thus Palpatine would have reason to push hard for immediate military action, which would probably not happen due to the demilitarized state of the Republic.

Despite the attempts to kill them, the Jedi escape and deliver the Queen to the Senate, where Palpatine uses her to galvanize the Senate into throwing the Chancellor out. He is planning to use the Queen to drum up support, but then she returns to Naboo to begin a resistance movement. This, he immediately uses to inform the Trade Federation, hoping to get them to change the terms of the invasion to crushing a terrorist movement on the planet that the local government is completely unable to stop, and that the Queen was tragically killed in the ensuing battles. Yet, despite all the odds, the Trade Federation loses and Palpatine still wins in the Senate. Everyone parties on Naboo, while the Viceroy plans to turn the tables on his shadowy agent of doom.



Attack of the Clones: After TPM, the shadowy Palpatine gets the Viceroy to keep their agreement a secret in exchange for lightening the possible sentence imposed on him, and letting him stay in power. He agrees, but is angry that his chances in the first movie were dashed. Palpatine made good use of the intervening years, commissioning an army in secret in order to begin focusing his efforts on controlling the galaxy. But he knows he'll need more than the Trade Federation this time, and plans to call on the other Outer Rim corporations who are under threat of taxation. Knowing that the shadowy figure he projected earlier would no longer be enough for the Viceroy, who would no doubt warn the others of the plan, he finds the one Jedi who has broken rank and left: Dooku.

Pulling the strings on both sides, Palpatine convinces Dooku that the Jedi Order, and the Republic as a whole, is too corrupt and decadent to survive. But with the corporations and their large armies, he knows that if the Senate were to lose too much power, they'd be at too great a risk to enact the necessary changes. So both agree to use the two sides against one another, crushing the corporations so that the Senate will be weakened, and with a large army that Palpatine will be able to control and manipulate into enforcing his will. With his order placed years ago, the first batch of clones are almost ready to start fighting the Clone Wars. But there's the matter of the former Queen to deal with, as well as Skywalker.

Palpatine knows that Skywalker is destined for something. The Jedi already helped confirm that for him. The boy is strong in the Force, and the Jedi are going to have their hands full soon enough. He needed Skywalker and Amidala out of the way, and so he tells Dooku to get the Seperatist ball rolling by trying to assassinate the senator. Even if they fail, it'll be enough to push the Jedi into protecting Amidala, and possibly even sending Skywalker. With Amidala out of the way, there's no real opposition to his Military Creation Act, and the Jedi know that the new clone army will be necessary for the coming crisis. They'll deal with Palpatine later, after they've used the clones to win the war. Palpatine uses his Sith influences on Jar-Jar, who is trying his best to fill the shoes left by Amidala. As the junior senator, he knows that he must do something, and with Palpatine's help, pushes for granting Palpatine emergency powers.

The Clone Wars begin, and now both sides are committed. Palpatine just has to sit back and keep the Republic aimed at the Seperatists, and let Dooku keep the Seperatists aimed at the Republic.



Revenge of the Sith The Clone Wars are winding down. The Republic is getting the upper hand, and so it's come time for Palpatine to dispatch Dooku. Telling his apprentice to deliver the Seperatist Fleet to Coruscant, he lets himself get captured and thus attract the attention of Kenobi and Skywalker. Palpatine probably made sure that both were on the planet or nearby when the battle began, so that they could be there to try and rescue him. Skywalker had already begun turning to the dark side, and as a personal confidant, Palpatine was able to begin steering him towards his own ends. So he knew he had to send Skywalker down the dark path, and a firm kick in the pants would be if he killed Dooku. The death of Dooku meant Palpatine's secret was safe, and Skywalker was well and truely on his way to being a dark Jedi.

With Skywalker now committed, Palpatine used his status as a confidant to hold Skywalker's loyalty hostage. He knew the Jedi would discover his identity sooner or later, and the time to act was fast approaching. With the four masters sent to arrest him dead, and Skywalker responsible for the death of one of them, he now had Skywalker's fate in his hands. Christened Darth Vader, Sideous sent Vader to kill the few Jedi in the temple, the Seperatist threat keeping most of the Jedi away on other planets. While that happened, Sideous enacted Order 66, which he'd made sure was part of the Clone's obedient commands. Many Jedi didn't suspect the clones to turn on them, and many perished. The few that survived were no longer able to act together, and it was time to take the puppet government by the strings. Making his infamous announcement to the Senate, he became the Emperor of the Imperial Republic. His final victory was now secured, and all his plans had come to fruition.

ronindave wrote: Those must have been pretty bad Jedi to be taken down by one guy with a light saber. Probably had the same quality of training as the 3 Palpatine easily disposed of in his office.

He's the freaking Chosen One. He killed Dooku, ie one of the best swordsmen in the Order.

And of course using a few missiles on the temple never occurred to them because we needed to have the Anakin killing kids scene to establish his baddity

Weren't there things in the Jedi archives Palpatine wanted (holocrons and the like)? Plus he wanted to send out the fake signal to lure Jedi back.

And besides, having a police action to stop a revolt conducted by the army is bad enough. Imagine the PR hit he would take if he had just used heavy weapons in the middle of the city.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

ronindave wrote: Those must have been pretty bad Jedi to be taken down by one guy with a light saber. Probably had the same quality of training as the 3 Palpatine easily disposed of in his office.

He's the freaking Chosen One. He killed Dooku, ie one of the best swordsmen in the Order.

Clearly Dooku was a pretty bad Jedi to be taken down by one guy with a lightsabre, even if that one guy was the Chosen One. Of course, Anakin himself was a pretty bad Jedi, since he also was taken down by one guy with a lightsabre, on no fewer than 3 separate occasions (Dooku in AotC, Obi-Wan in RotS, Luke in RotJ). That's ok, though, since Obi-Wan was also a pretty bad Jedi, as he was taken down by one guy with a lightsabre 3 times as well (Dooku in AotC, Dooku in RotS, Vader in ANH), and Luke was also a bad Jedi, since he was taken down by one guy with a lightsabre (Vader in ESB).

Or the logic "X must be a bad jedi if he lost a lighsabre duel," is poor.

Baffalo pretty much nailed it. Taking a more abstract point of view, my two cents:

ronindave wrote:Going back to my original post I wanted to know what Palpatine's original master plan was - the one that went beyond his plottings with the TRade Fed whom he was using and this relates to the Battle of Naboo. Why did he have an interest in Naboo once he got what he wanted? They had no idea who he was. He could have told them anything to get rid of them or had Darth Maul kill them. The Battle of Naboo served no purpose for him and the movie jumps 10 years to the next one so it made little difference. As for the hero side they basically helped the bad guy into power and their victory only aided his cause. Had they lost to the Trade Fed it would presented a tricky issue for the new chancellor after the old one got removed for not being decisive enough and being under the thumb of special interest group types.

I say more about the thematic importance of the Battle of Naboo, as part of the series of movies, later: short form, it is a pivotal event in the lives of the characters who go on to be very important in later movies. What matters is how the war on Naboo affects them, not the war in and of itself.

As to Palpatine's original plan, I think it was fairly simple: provoke a confrontation between the Republic and the Trade Federation on the subject of Naboo. He had to know that sooner or later, Jedi would become involved, and that the Senate would become involved, and so on. While he may not have been able to predict the exact details of what the Jedi would do, what the Trade Federation would do, what the people of Naboo would do, or what the Senate would do... he can still profit from the situation.

Palpatine faces a number of power blocs that could resist his takeover of the galaxy. On the one hand, the centralized Republic-Jedi combination. On the other, at the start of the prequels there are a host of other, minor blocs (like the Trade Federation) that have resources large enough to rival the power of the Republic.

To deal with this array of potential rivals, Palpatine has a very consistent modus operandi. He uses this same method throughout the prequels, including at Naboo: he plays off two powerful interests against each other, to strengthen his control over both.

In Episode I, he is not ready to make a bid for absolute galactic power, so he provokes only a small conflict: the Trade Federation against the (weak) Republic government, over a single planet that isn't really vital to either side. He encourages the Trade Federation to take a belligerent stance, opposing the Republic's laws. But this is a trap for both sides. The Republic's fundamental weakness is revealed and they are made to look foolish, allowing Palpatine to gain power in the Senate- even if not the Chancellorship. At the same time, he can depend on the Trade Federation getting slapped down... which embitters them against the Republic and sets them up for the next stage of his plan, which is to pull them into the CIS (in Episode II).

And he can pursue this strategy no matter what exact events happen on Naboo. He doesn't care if Jedi rescue the queen, or if Jedi are killed, or if the queen signs a treaty legitimizing the occupation. He can still exploit his unique situation of knowing what's happening on both sides, and being able to manipulate both sides, to strengthen his position. Because he can depend on the Republic winding up humiliated somehow in the course of the crisis, even if that humiliation isn't delivered by Queen Amidala making a speech in the Senate. And he can depend on the Trade Federation eventually losing their confrontation with the Republic (they can't stand against the full power of the Jedi, as shown by their fear of even a few Jedi).

For example, he could simultaneously lead a motion in the Senate to censor the Trade Federation himself... while ordering the Trade Federation to stand down. He creates the illusion that the Trade Federation backed down because of his courageous stand in the Senate, and becomes a more influential leader in the Senate: a win for Palpatine. The Trade Federation is still humiliated, and they still blame the accursed Republic (and the accursed Palpatine!) while depending on Sidious for advice and support.

Purple wrote:No, the Neimodians and every other living member of the CIS are effectively the lowest level sentient members of the CIS. The droids are just tools. A good comparison would be to say that the Neimodians and the others are the Storm Troopers and the droids are the rifles used to shoot at our hero.

Nonsense. The Neimoidians are characters with real motivation: people with power and wealth at their disposal. They are powerful enough that the heroes are sent to confront them directly, powerful enough that even the arch-villain of the entire series has to take their wishes and motives into account.

They are not mere minions, any more than, say, Count Dooku was. Sure, they're being manipulated by another 'bigger' villain, but they are nonetheless the main antagonists. Of that particular movie, at least... and they retain their importance as antagonists even up through the third prequel, with their ships and troops playing a key role in supporting the Separatists and ultimately requiring one of the main protagonists to be dispatched to take care of them.

Metahive wrote:I think TPM shows that there're several fundamental structural problems with the setup of the Republic's political system. Imagine the following: governor Rick Perry comes before the US Senate, says there's something foul in Texas (say Microsoft occupied Austin with its vast mercenary army) and then demands the federal government do something about it. For whatever reason the news of the occupation didn't make the rounds. When the government offers to task a comission with an assessment of the situation he rejects the offer and immediately demands that there be a vote of non-confidence against Obama with the justification that "the federal government is unable to act". Eventually the vote ousts Obama and a few days later senator Texas senator John Cornyn becomes US president.

Does that make sense to you? Well, that's what more or less happens in TPM which makes me wonder how a Republic managed to last that long with a setup that broken and prone to instability.

The stupidity of the system is somewhat reduced if you don't take an America-centric view of how politics in a democracy work. In a European parliamentary democracy, something along those lines would at least be possible, if unlikely.

Beyond that, yeah, it's a messy and unstable political structure. But really, all you know from the film is that a mechanism exists where (like the prime minister in a parliamentary system) the Chancellor can be voted out of office and replaced by the legislature. The system might well have worked fine on that basis for decades or centuries, only to start crapping out (for a number of possible reasons) shortly before the time of the movies.

Metahive wrote:

TC Pilot wrote:It's no less reasonable than a victorious general being elected president. Plus, having been the impetus behind ousting the unpopular Valorum certainly was a bonus. Regardless, it's what the movie tells us, though the EU adds more to it than just that.

Ummm, I'd say there's a huge gaping abyss between "victorious general" and "guy whose homeplanet got invaded". The former actually accomplished something, the latter didn't. The ousting was also done by Amidala not him. Really, if the movie (and that's what we're talking about here) had portrayed Palpatine as having built an extensive political network behind the scenes which would push him into power once Valorum was gone it would have made more sense. I also repeat, the Senate acts as if they don't even believe there's something wrong on Naboo so why is he getting any "sympathy" anyway?

What makes you think Palpatine hasn't done other stuff off-screen that makes people think he's worth electing? You can't assume he's a random no-name senator from the evidence of the movie.

Hell, if he's a Sith Lord, maybe he can mind-trick people into thinking he's Chancellorship material.

ronindave wrote:If the main emphasis of the overall storyarch was Palpatine's rise to power and Anakin's seduction to the Dark Side why waste almost a whole movie on an almost inconsequential storyline? The real story was Palpatine's rise to power not the side adventure of minor characters who didn't accomplish much that was substantial in the end.

In a New Hope, the film ended with the Death Star blown up along with the head villain and a significant number of Imperials while Darth Vader was even temporarily defeated. The Empire suffered a significant defeat and setback. On the other side the Rebellion was saved to fight another day and Luke became an important leader in the Rebellion. These were consequential outcomes. You could feel something got accomplished in the story.

With Phantom Menace, the Naboo winning the battle didn't do diddly-squat as Palpatine was elected Chancellor anyway. The whole entire battle was pointless from beginning to end because it couldn't have any impact on the end result. The only thing of consequence that occurred was Qui-Gon dying to set up Obi-wan as Anakin's trainer. The most significant thing that happened was Palpatine's election which we never saw! What kind of film-maker doesn't show the most significant part of his entire storyline?

There were a lot of other things he needed to set up during that movie:

-Padme as a significant figure in Republic politics.

-Obi-Wan's own formative experiences; it's very obvious that Qui-Gon is an influence on his later personality, though Obi-Wan is a more 'conventional' Jedi than Qui-Gon ever was.

-The discovery by the Jedi that there is a significant threat stirring in the galaxy; even if they don't nail down the nature of the problem until much later, this is the point at which the Jedi start getting suspicious, and the growth of their suspicions plays a major role in the next two films.

On top of that, the Naboo invasion and events surrounding it motivate everything else that happens. Had Naboo not been invaded, Anakin would have remained a slave on Tatooine, Qui-Gon would have lived, Palpatine would have become chancellor later or not at all, and Padme would in all likelihood have led a quiet life on Naboo without entering galactic politics.

So to set up and justify all these things that happen to the major characters of the prequels, you have to have a conflict on Naboo. Given that you have such a conflict, you must then resolve it. If it's bad plotting to have Palpatine elected Chancellor off-screen, it would be even worse plotting to have the villains attack Naboo, motivating huge events in the lives of the main characters, and then have that invasion be resolved off-screen.

All that's great but then it comes down to Palpatine being the major character if not the protagonist of the Prequel series and therefore needed more screen time to see some of his plottings and manipulations. Too much is left offscreen that needed to be on screen. Personally his character (and the acting behind it) is far more interesting than any other character in the series. Anakin just isn't interesting as his Darth Vader persona of the OT is and his fall from grace wasn't a terribly big fall since he was such a whiny shit most of the time. More Plotty Palpy less Whiny Annie.

Or the logic "X must be a bad jedi if he lost a lighsabre duel," is poor.

Some of you guys make a hobby of missing points here, don't you? My main point was the importance of Anakin to Palpatine's schemes. The things Anakin did when he turned to the Dark Side weren't so significant that Palpatine needed the quote Chosen One unquote. Any old Jedi or semi-Jedi could have killed kids and whatever other Jedi were in the Temple when they have a thousand expendable clone troopers behind them. The Separatists leaders were even easier to take down. Using the future Darth Vader for these tasks was the equivalent of using a sledge hammer wrapped in barbed wire with a knife taped on it for good measure in order to swat a fly with arthritis.

ronindave wrote:All that's great but then it comes down to Palpatine being the major character if not the protagonist of the Prequel series and therefore needed more screen time to see some of his plottings and manipulations. Too much is left offscreen that needed to be on screen. Personally his character (and the acting behind it) is far more interesting than any other character in the series. Anakin just isn't interesting as his Darth Vader persona of the OT is and his fall from grace wasn't a terribly big fall since he was such a whiny shit most of the time. More Plotty Palpy less Whiny Annie.

Or the logic "X must be a bad jedi if he lost a lighsabre duel," is poor.

Some of you guys make a hobby of missing points here, don't you? My main point was the importance of Anakin to Palpatine's schemes. The things Anakin did when he turned to the Dark Side weren't so significant that Palpatine needed the quote Chosen One unquote. Any old Jedi or semi-Jedi could have killed kids and whatever other Jedi were in the Temple when they have a thousand expendable clone troopers behind them. The Separatists leaders were even easier to take down. Using the future Darth Vader for these tasks was the equivalent of using a sledge hammer wrapped in barbed wire with a knife taped on it for good measure in order to swat a fly with arthritis.

Anakin is important because he is the tragic hero. He is the one who begins life as a slave, is rescued by Jedi, watches the entire galaxy descend into chaos and war around him, and fall in love with a pretty girl while everyone in the Jedi Order tell him that it's bad and he shouldn't do it. The story was never about Palpatine, it's about Anakin. The entire saga is the story of the decline and subsequent return to honor that comes with the name Skywalker. Anakin's failures lead to his betrayal of the Emperor so that he can save his son and try to help undo the monstrosity that he helped build. Palpatine is the dark taint on Anakin's soul, the devil incarnate, who tempts him with wicked power, only to redeem himself later to the only one who mattered to him.

In regards to using Anakin at the temple, remember that you're assaulting the one place where the Jedi are guaranteed to be concentrated. Even if most of those Jedi are students, they're still training, and that requires Knights and Masters. The clone troopers might have eventually won, but how bad would it have been? Sending Anakin also had the benefit of cementing the power Palpatine had over his new apprentice. By driving him to killing innocents, he made sure Anakin's soul was suitably damned and thus no longer able to resist the dark power granted to him. It also helped sever the ties to Anakin's former life by his own hand, because by killing the Jedi and then going and killing the Seperatist leaders, he removes all the pieces of his former life that might have helped him turn back. By the time Luke and Leia are born, there's nothing left for Vader anymore. His only home is at the side of his new Master.

Anakin was the Chosen One. If Sidious failed to recruit him, the Force would likely have arranged things so that Anakin foiled Sidious and slew him over two decades before he eventually did so.

Basically, it's not a good idea to ignore the prophecy of the one who will destroy you.

ronindave wrote:Well he certainly did that but it kind of makes Padme and Luke's belief there was still some good in him ring rather hollow. He killed kids. Make no mistake about the ramifications of that. He slaughtered children. Killing grown Jedi who can at least fight back is one thing but having Anakin cut down a bunch of defenseless kids over the vague hope Palypatine would help him in keeping his wife from dying is pretty reprehensible.

Anakin was driven by selfishness (trying to save his wife at everyone else's expense), his inability to deal with personal loss, his Messiah complex, and paranoia about the Jedi's intentions that was instilled into him by Palpatine. This combination of factors made his susceptible to the Dark Side, which previous movies established could seize control of you if you're not careful.

Darth Vader gladly stood by while Tarkin blasted Alderaan with a superlaser, slaughtering billions. He was a reprehensible monster in the OT too. The movies don't make the argument that his final acts let him off the hook, but rather that Luke had accomplished something by saving that last bit of good left in him.

Eframepilot wrote:Anakin was the Chosen One. If Sidious failed to recruit him, the Force would likely have arranged things so that Anakin foiled Sidious and slew him over two decades before he eventually did so.

Basically, it's not a good idea to ignore the prophecy of the one who will destroy you.

You mean that prophecy that no one commented on where and who it came from and changed thru the course of the films? And how would the Force arrange anything? This isn't some EU mumbo-jumbo that the Force actually has some kind of consciousness is it?

Anakin is important because he is the tragic hero.

Or rather he "should have been" the tragic hero had the story focused more on him and not made Palpatine this semi-omnipotent master planner in a galaxy full of morons.

Plus what's so tragic about him? He hardly shows much in the way of heroics. He supported the idea of a dictatorship long before, he slaughtered women and children, he constantly bitched about Obi-wan and tried several times to make him look bad in public, he berated Padme in front of her Queen, he beheaded a literally "unarmed" opponent, he helped to kill Mace Windu over the vague hope to save his wife due to his bad dreams, then he went off to kill more kids, and force choke his pregnant wife. Yeah that's a tragic hero! All I saw was a whiny selfish psychotic jerk who finally stopped pretending and gave into his true nature.