Incoming new Travissty!

[Desdinova]

I should point out that bioweapons would inadvertently make their way aboard starships from carelessness at their port of call--especially if it was a plague engineered with a long initial dormancy period, in which people might not know they're infected. This is, after all, how these plagues spread across the stars.

Personally, I think it's hilarious that every single crewman on every single ship is a Fett clone--or, at least, so says this new series. Even ignoring the Republic's heavy casualties across the entire front of the war, and assuming each one of those ubermensch 3 million is still alive, the show seems to think that they're all tied up in shipboard duties. So much for their leet skillz on the ground.

[The Romulan Republic]

I should point out that bioweapons would inadvertently make their way aboard starships from carelessness at their port of call--especially if it was a plague engineered with a long initial dormancy period, in which people might not know they're infected. This is, after all, how these plagues spread across the stars.

Personally, I think it's hilarious that every single crewman on every single ship is a Fett clone--or, at least, so says this new series. Even ignoring the Republic's heavy casualties across the entire front of the war, and assuming each one of those ubermensch 3 million is still alive, the show seems to think that they're all tied up in shipboard duties. So much for their leet skillz on the ground.

Incidentally, are there any solid numbers on the Republic fleet size? How many clones would it take just to fully man there war ships? It would be hilarious if the number was undeniably over three million, but while I've heard Imperial fleet numbers, I've got none for the Republic.

The only ones I've heard are 5000 ships total at Coruscant (just cap ships, or all ships?) and (I forget where I heard it but I think it was on SDN), 1000 Aclamators ordered after Geonosis. What would it take to man 1000 Acclamators, if indeed this number is valid?

[Desdinova]

If we're to go off canon stats, it would take 700,000 men to fully crew those things, but the thing is that they're troop transports, designed to hold 16,000 men each--or, if you like, 16,000,000 troops for that fleet alone.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ah, so counting Acclamators alone, the Republic could only fully load one in five of there ships?

[Desdinova]

Ghetto edit: But, also, and directly to Ba'al, I feel I should point out the "millions of Separatist warships" commented on in the RotS:Incredible Cross Sections, and referenced here.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ghetto edit: But, also, and directly to Ba'al, I feel I should point out the "millions of Separatist warships" commented on in the RotS:Incredible Cross Sections, and referenced here.

Does "warships" refer to cap ships, or does it also include frigites, corvettes, etc? Not that a millions strong fleet wouldn't kick ass, but I thought I should ask.

[Teleros]

While vast campaigns detain millions of Separatist warships...

That's the only mention I could find after a quick look through the book, so I'd assume it includes all sizes of warship, but not dedicated transports and the like.

[Jim Raynor]

2. The Confederacy consisted of "thousands" of systems prior to Geonosis, with a further 10,000 joining in the immediate wake of the outbreak of war. That leaves the other 900,000+ systems still in the Republic, including the Core Worlds (where the bulk of the galaxy's productive capacity was concentrated).

1,000,000 member worlds is the Galactic Empire's size by ANH. We know the Republic is smaller than the Empire, given all the examples of Imperial conquests in the EU, and the fact that Tatooine was considered outside the Republic's borders (outside of even where Republic credits were worth anything) in TPM. Who knows, maybe the Republic was only something like 800,000 member worlds.

Those "thousands" of CIS systems were what were in the initial Separatist movement, and the 10,000 were the ones ready to join as of Count Dooku's meeting with the business leaders in AOTC. And I don't think it includes the vast territories directly owned by those big businesses. The Trade Federation is so huge that it warranted representation in the Republic Senate, as if it was its own sector. It's not inconceivable to think that the other members (Techno Union, Banking Clan, etc.) are probably in the same weight class as the Trade Federation. The size of sectors vary, but we know from the EU that they can easily have thousands and thousands of worlds in them. Whatever the number of worlds they own, we KNOW that these businesses controlled a disproportionate amount of the galaxy's manufacturing, logistical, and military capability. Wong calculated that the Geonosian plant in AOTC (which is described as outdated in the EU) could produce 82,000 battledroids a day, or about 30 million in a year. That's one facility on one planet.

3. Palpatine was dealing from his own stacked deck. AND he effectively controlled the media. AND one of his core personality traits was "fucking liar." So why would we presume that the Republic must have been genuinely threatened by the CIS forces for his "political theater" to work?

We went through this when debating Traviss and her apologists. Even propaganda needs to have a core of truth, or at least not be lying so much that it's beyond belief.

Killing a shit ton of civilians does not mean that the CIS were a legitimate threat to conquer and hold the Republic. Convincing civilians that a given danger represents a serious threat is not difficult.

Whether the CIS was a serious threat to the Republic is not up for debate. Official Site

"Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve."

How long did it take Americans to collectively realize that al Qaeda wasn't a meaningful threat? Longer than than 3 years, for sure.

Americans know that Al Qaeda can kill thousands of us. That again is not up for debate, because it happened. People didn't "realize" that they weren't a threat. The controversy is Bush's lies that Saddam had links to Al Qaeda, which is far smaller in scale than Palpatine hyping up an all-out galactic war against a few piddly planets that never stood a chance, as you argue.

[Ba'al's Thunderbolt]

Baal, did you read Samuel's post? Past the first sentence, I mean.

I see no compelling evidence that the CIS was capable of doing that. Did they sometimes take advantage of local superiority to launch BZD attacks on populated planets? Sure - orbital bombardment of the type available in SW makes that pathetically easy. But on the scale of a pan-galactic civilization, it's no more strategically meaningful than blowing up a couple of office buildings in New York. Does that mean al-Qaeda is a credible threat to the whole edifice of Western Civilization? Of course it doesn't. Al Qaeda is a threat to kill people, it is not a serious threat to militarily defeat the United States.

In many ways, the use of what are essentially terror tactics (especially given the publicly stated motives of the Separatists) could be argued to be a reflection of the essential weakness of their overall military position. It's not unlike the German rocket attacks against British cities in the closing months of WWII - lots of civilian deaths and very visible as a result, but the impact on Allied warmaking potential was negligible. The inability of the CIS to launch sustained campaigns against the Core Worlds is highlighted by the nature of many of the operations they did launch against the Core. Strikes like Humbarine and Coruscant were essentially hit-and-run attacks with primarily political/psyops objectives. The operation to capture Palpatine was explicitly an attempt to force a negotiated settlement (at least as far as the Separatist leadership - Dooku excluded - knew). These are the tactics of desperation and weakness, not strength.

Ok, and since you've responded to someone else's statement, I'll answer that one in a few words: What. The. Fuck. How is Palpatine's plan relevant to his point? In fact, it disproves the 300 nonsence right off for two blindingly simple reasons:
1) You'd need a shitton of clones to take down all the Jedi, even with the element of surprise.

Why? In Revenge of the Sith, we see most of the Jedi dying at the hands of platoon or even squad size forces. My understanding is that the Jedi Order's total ranks were something on the order of 10,000 knights at the start of the war, numbers considerably reduced after three years of casualties.

2) To get said element of surprise, you'd need to convince said Jedi that there was a massive war going on, which is much easier and can be done more efficiently if you actually make said war happen!

That doesn't mean that the war has to be, underneath it all, a truly credible threat to the Republic. Just that it has to SEEM to be, which isn't the same thing at all.

[Jim Raynor]

Uh, we know the Separatists were a credible threat to the Republic. Conquering core planets, BDZing a Coruscant-equivalent, wiping out an entire SECTOR with bioweapons, and assaulting Coruscant itself proves that.

[NecronLord]

Personally, I think it's hilarious that every single crewman on every single ship is a Fett clone--or, at least, so says this new series. Even ignoring the Republic's heavy casualties across the entire front of the war, and assuming each one of those ubermensch 3 million is still alive, the show seems to think that they're all tied up in shipboard duties. So much for their leet skillz on the ground.

What makes you think the series buys into the three million sillyness?

If it were actually using Traviss figures, Dooku would have said his forces outnumber the clones 'millions to one.'

[NecronLord]

I see no compelling evidence that the CIS was capable of doing that. Did they sometimes take advantage of local superiority to launch BZD attacks on populated planets? Sure - orbital bombardment of the type available in SW makes that pathetically easy. But on the scale of a pan-galactic civilization, it's no more strategically meaningful than blowing up a couple of office buildings in New York.

And an entire sector? He made an entire sector uninhabitable in one attack. That's on the order of a thousandth of the republic. Like killing off 6 million people on Earth. And he did that in one go. With one ship.

As for the rest of this limited war nonsense:

War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku.

Yeah. Sounds just like Al-Quaeda... Err, no.

[Ba'al's Thunderbolt]

1,000,000 member worlds is the Galactic Empire's size by ANH. We know the Republic is smaller than the Empire, given all the examples of Imperial conquests in the EU, and the fact that Tatooine was considered outside the Republic's borders (outside of even where Republic credits were worth anything) in TPM. Who knows, maybe the Republic was only something like 800,000 member worlds.

Even if it was, it's still MASSIVELY and almost certainly DECISIVELY larger than the CIS.

Those "thousands" of CIS systems were what were in the initial Separatist movement, and the 10,000 were the ones ready to join as of Count Dooku's meeting with the business leaders in AOTC.

After which resistance to the Separatists hardened, not abated. The only numbers we get on the size of the CIS indicate that it is far, far smaller than the Republic as a whole.

And I don't think it includes the vast territories directly owned by those big businesses.

I thought the holdings of the Commerce Guild, Trade Federation and Banking Clan were supposed to be comparable to what we see in the Corporate Sector. Wealthy, yes, resource rich, yes - but not on the scale of the Core Worlds.

The Trade Federation is so huge that it warranted representation in the Republic Senate, as if it was its own sector. It's not inconceivable to think that the other members (Techno Union, Banking Clan, etc.) are probably in the same weight class as the Trade Federation.

So they're the equivalent of sectors, so what? There were thousands upon thousands of sectors.

The size of sectors vary, but we know from the EU that they can easily have thousands and thousands of worlds in them.

Sectors in the Republic were defined as having a maximum of fifty inhabited systems, the larger sectors of later EU sources reflects the move toward centralization and the concentration of power under the New Order.

Whatever the number of worlds they own, we KNOW that these businesses controlled a disproportionate amount of the galaxy's manufacturing, logistical, and military capability.

They could control disproportionate resources and still be hopelessly outclassed on the level of potential production if the size gap between the CIS and the Republic was great enough.

Wong calculated that the Geonosian plant in AOTC (which is described as outdated in the EU) could produce 82,000 battledroids a day, or about 30 million in a year. That's one facility on one planet.

And I guess Corellia and Kuat were whittling starships by hand out of pieces of wheat, right?

We went through this when debating Traviss and her apologists. Even propaganda needs to have a core of truth, or at least not be lying so much that it's beyond belief.

So you're suggesting that there must be some core of truth to the idea that, say, Jews stabbed Germany in the back in November of 1918? I mean, that was a highly effective bit of propaganda, so it couldn't possibly be that far from the truth.

Except, of course, that it was a complete and total fabrication.

Remember the Maine, baby! Hell, how many millions of copies did Unlimited Access sell? There were millions of Americans that implicitly believed that Hillary Clinton decorated the White House Christmas tree with used condoms and hypodermic needles. Propaganda doesn't have to even remotely resemble truth to be effective.

Killing a shit ton of civilians does not mean that the CIS were a legitimate threat to conquer and hold the Republic. Convincing civilians that a given danger represents a serious threat is not difficult.

"Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve."

Lot's of Americans fear Osama - but that doesn't mean he's a credible threat to the continued existence of America.

Americans know that Al Qaeda can kill thousands of us.

Which isn't to say that al Qaeda is capable of militarily defeating the United States and forcing us to pray to Mecca...which doesn't stop lots of retards from acting as if they can.

And an entire sector? He made an entire sector uninhabitable in one attack. That's on the order of a thousandth of the republic. Like killing off 6 million people on Earth. And he did that in one go. With one ship.

Republic sectors had a maximum of 50 inhabited systems, so it's likely to be nothing like a full tenth of a percent of the Republic's population. And trivial to do, given the power of in universe weaponry.

What argues most strongly against the idea that the CIS represented a force powerful enough to actually conquer the Galactic Republic once it went to a full war footing is the fact that the whole thing was being orchestrated by Sidious. What part of the character of Palpatine/Sidious as we know him leads you to believe that he would place the means to defeat his government in the hands of his ambitious apprentice, knowing that 'treachery is the way of the Sith', much less that he would place that power in the hands of tool as fundamentally unreliable as Grievous?

[Jim Raynor]

1,000,000 member worlds is the Galactic Empire's size by ANH. We know the Republic is smaller than the Empire, given all the examples of Imperial conquests in the EU, and the fact that Tatooine was considered outside the Republic's borders (outside of even where Republic credits were worth anything) in TPM. Who knows, maybe the Republic was only something like 800,000 member worlds.

Even if it was, it's still MASSIVELY and almost certainly DECISIVELY larger than the CIS.

Let me just throw out some feasible numbers here:

Assume those "thousands" of planets that started the Separatist movement is 5,000. Add the 10,000 Dooku mentioned. Throw in several more thousand planets (let's make it 5,000 again) joining during the war. Assume the massive Trade Federation, which has Senate representation and is said to "effectively control" galactic shipping, has 20,000 of its own. Give the comparably powerful Techno Union 15,000, and 5,000 a piece to the Banking Clan, Commerce Guild, and Corporate Alliance. That's 85,000 planets, or more than 10% of the galaxy. Of course the actual numbers could be smaller, or bigger. But we know for a FACT that the planets the Separatists possess have a disproportionately high war fighting capability, and that most of their military is made up of ridiculously mass-produced droids rather than living citizens. Going by calculations, in ten years ONE outdated factory on Geonosis can produce as many troops as could be reasonably drafted from a planet with billions of inhabitants.

After which resistance to the Separatists hardened, not abated.

And support for the Separatists would flare up as well, when they finally stood up to the Republic in an all-out war.

I thought the holdings of the Commerce Guild, Trade Federation and Banking Clan were supposed to be comparable to what we see in the Corporate Sector. Wealthy, yes, resource rich, yes - but not on the scale of the Core Worlds.

The Trade Federation controls galactic shipping. That's the claim using a canon quote on the official site. Likewise, the Techno Union controls "many" of the galaxy's most industrialized worlds. These are not relatively wealthy sectors, but major players on the galactic stage.

So they're the equivalent of sectors, so what? There were thousands upon thousands of sectors.

And not all sectors are equal. We know this from canon quotes about sectors with thousands of worlds, as well as Padme's sector being practically worthless (36 inhabited member worlds, one of them being Naboo which has no apparent warfighting capability).

The size of sectors vary, but we know from the EU that they can easily have thousands and thousands of worlds in them.

Sectors in the Republic were defined as having a maximum of fifty inhabited systems, the larger sectors of later EU sources reflects the move toward centralization and the concentration of power under the New Order.

50 systems max per sector is bullshit and fits with the rest of canon as well as 3 million clones. With 1,024 senators each representing a sector (TPM Visual Dictionary), using that number you would only have 51,200 member worlds in the Republic. Which hurts you even more, because suddenly 10,000 Separatist planets is a much bigger proportion of the Republic. The Visual Dictionary also said that Chancellor Valorum's sector had over a thousand systems.

If the Trade Federation can control shipping on a galaxy-wide scale, I would assume that it must either have a rather large sector if not more territory.

Whatever the number of worlds they own, we KNOW that these businesses controlled a disproportionate amount of the galaxy's manufacturing, logistical, and military capability.

They could control disproportionate resources and still be hopelessly outclassed on the level of potential production if the size gap between the CIS and the Republic was great enough.[/quote]

Not if they own many of the best planets. That's like saying one side has less production if it "only" has America, while the other side gets Africa.

And I guess Corellia and Kuat were whittling starships by hand out of pieces of wheat, right?

And those two planets are balanced by the shitload of big manufacturers on the Separatist side. Nice rhetorical attempt.

So you're suggesting that there must be some core of truth to the idea that, say, Jews stabbed Germany in the back in November of 1918? I mean, that was a highly effective bit of propaganda, so it couldn't possibly be that far from the truth.

I also mentioned the scale of the lie. Hitler can make up conspiracy theories about the Jews screwing Germany behind the scenes. Palpatine can't make a pathetic ass alliance of planets out to be an OPENLY huge military threat to the galaxy. And we know in fact that the CIS wasn't pathetic and could slug it out with the Republic from CANON quotes, so stop trying to debate this.

Remember the Maine, baby! Hell, how many millions of copies did Unlimited Access sell?

A lie about ONE ship destroyed from sabotage, when nobody had any way of knowing otherwise.

There were millions of Americans that implicitly believed that Hillary Clinton decorated the White House Christmas tree with used condoms and hypodermic needles. Propaganda doesn't have to even remotely resemble truth to be effective.

Again, a lie about one person in one place. You don't understand that scale matters, do you? Bush sure as fuck didn't pass Iraq off as having millions of battle-ready troops, a fleet of aircraft carriers, and stealth fighters.

Lot's of Americans fear Osama - but that doesn't mean he's a credible threat to the continued existence of America.

Oh Jesus fucking Christ your analogies blow. Osama isn't conquering "state after state" in the northeastern US, is he? If he did then he WOULD be a credible threat to America.

Which isn't to say that al Qaeda is capable of militarily defeating the United States and forcing us to pray to Mecca...which doesn't stop lots of retards from acting as if they can.

Yeah, bring up the retards on the absolute fringe. Mainstream America doesn't believe Al Qaeda can beat America militarily, not even the Republican fearmongers (rather the opposite, they're all positive that America is God's nation and unbeatable).

What argues most strongly against the idea that the CIS represented a force powerful enough to actually conquer the Galactic Republic once it went to a full war footing is the fact that the whole thing was being orchestrated by Sidious. What part of the character of Palpatine/Sidious as we know him leads you to believe that he would place the means to defeat his government in the hands of his ambitious apprentice, knowing that 'treachery is the way of the Sith', much less that he would place that power in the hands of tool as fundamentally unreliable as Grievous?

Except he didn't place it all in the hands of Dooku. We see Grievous and the other Separatist leaders taking orders from Darth Sidious himself in ROTS.

[NecronLord]

Republic sectors had a maximum of 50 inhabited systems,

Wrong. See AotC ICS

so it's likely to be nothing like a full tenth of a percent of the Republic's population. And trivial to do, given the power of in universe weaponry.

There are thousands of sectors. Each Senator represents a sector, and there are thousands, not millions, of senate pods.

[Ba'al's Thunderbolt]

Let me just make up some numbers here:

This is where I stopped reading.

[Ender]

Let me just make up some numbers here:

This is where I stopped reading.

So just dismiss everything out of hand rather then argue it?

Per LoE, the CIS started with 6,000 systems. ROTS ICS says that as of the Battle of Coruscant, the CIS still had hundreds of sectors. Which rather succinctly ends your argument here. And that is without going into the fact that your "50 systems in a sector" statement is admitted to be false in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game, second edition, the source for it. The episode 1 VD tells how the Lytton sector had over a thousand systems represented by Valorum. Or the fact that Rogue Planet talks about 10,000 systems in the Coruscant sector. Or Tales of the Bounty Hunters providing a breakdown of the systems of the galaxy, pointing out that there are 400 billion in total. Yeah, let's not consider the scale at all.

[Darth Hoth]

Or Tales of the Bounty Hunters providing a breakdown of the systems of the galaxy, pointing out that there are 400 billion in total. Yeah, let's not consider the scale at all.

Are those 400 billions all settled and members of the galactic community? The highest membership tally I ever heard for the Empire was "billions" of worlds.

[Ender]

Or Tales of the Bounty Hunters providing a breakdown of the systems of the galaxy, pointing out that there are 400 billion in total. Yeah, let's not consider the scale at all.

Are those 400 billions all settled and members of the galactic community? The highest membership tally I ever heard for the Empire was "billions" of worlds.

I'd imagine that most of them are like the billions controlled by the mining guild - only a small outpost. The billions of worlds from the Star Wars Roleplaying Game second edition and Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook is likely a much smaller fraction of the overall total of 400 billion systems.

[Darth Hoth]

Or Tales of the Bounty Hunters providing a breakdown of the systems of the galaxy, pointing out that there are 400 billion in total. Yeah, let's not consider the scale at all.

Are those 400 billions all settled and members of the galactic community? The highest membership tally I ever heard for the Empire was "billions" of worlds.

I'd imagine that most of them are like the billions controlled by the mining guild - only a small outpost. The billions of worlds from the Star Wars Roleplaying Game second edition and Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook is likely a much smaller fraction of the overall total of 400 billion systems.

About my thoughts. I thought 400 billion referred to the total systems of the galaxy, though, including completely uninhabited ones? Is there any way to get a number for the percentage that are actually mined/colonised/whatever?

[VX-145]

Sorry about the delay, I've been busy.

In Revenge of the Sith, we see most of the Jedi dying at the hands of platoon or even squad size forces.

Yoda, Kenobi? Names that ring a bell?

That doesn't mean that the war has to be, underneath it all, a truly credible threat to the Republic. Just that it has to SEEM to be, which isn't the same thing at all.

Uh, and the easiest and most efficient way to do that is to, oh, I don't know, make a cheap droid army that could actually threaten said Republic? Droids can be shut down en masse, as the aftermath of RoTS shows. Also, remember that Palpatine has literally unlimited funds, he can afford said droid army, and if he can't then the Trade Federation can!

I just noticed this gem:

It's not unlike the German rocket attacks against British cities in the closing months of WWII

Actually, it's more like the blitz. And where in the name of fuck did the Al Qaeda analogy come from? These are NOT terror attacks. Say it with me, so it sticks in your stupidly dense head: Grevious. Is. Attacking. Industrial. Targets. Basic military strategy, so basic even you should be able to grasp it! Attack the enemy's supply base, and you don't need to attack the enemy army, you just let them starve to death.

One final note:

Republic sectors had a maximum of 50 inhabited systems

And that's why Senator Palpatine represented 40,000 inhabited planets? (Wookieepedia, the Chommel sector, not a very good source but good enough for now)

I'll respond more sometime later.

[mr friendly guy]

Just for interest, how much does Lucas get from the EU novels. I would have thought he earns more from his movies and toy merchandise, but apparently its a big enough cash cow that its apparently worth it for him to keep Traviss on board.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sectors in the Republic and Empire seem to have comprised on average hundreds of Sectors. Valorum's representation was considered exceptional, while Palpy was rather small. (The TPM VD I believe mentions Senators representing hundreds of worlds on average. The ISB mentions Moffs administering hundreds of worlds as well.) The 50 world sector is a minimum only (frmo the ISB again IIRC), and a definition that is described in that same source as having evolved over time to be bigger.

This of course doesn't include protectorates/colonies/etc. and uninhabited planets/resourcecs controlled by a sector, of course, but we have no idea how those may stack up (I imagine resource wealth varies from sector to sector as will colonization/protectorate numbers.)

Now, if youo really want shits and giggles.. we know ROTS and the Prequel novels suggest the REpublic encompassed far less than a million worlds (the empire had at least a million as per the ANH novel and references in some of the WEG materials to "thousand thousand" worlds of the GE.) The TPM I believe mentioned the Republic having some 100,000 member worlds. AOTC novel IIRC mentioned "tens of thousands" of worlds. And of course the ROTS movie of course says "thousands."

[Jim Raynor]

Just for interest, how much does Lucas get from the EU novels. I would have thought he earns more from his movies and toy merchandise, but apparently its a big enough cash cow that its apparently worth it for him to keep Traviss on board.

I don't think Lucas has made any specific decision to keep Traviss on board. He has made it clear in multiple interviews that he doesn't really give a shit about the EU.

[Elfdart]

Just for interest, how much does Lucas get from the EU novels. I would have thought he earns more from his movies and toy merchandise, but apparently its a big enough cash cow that its apparently worth it for him to keep Traviss on board.

Mass-market paperbacks are very much like toilet paper. They are meant to be cheap to make and easily discarded when used. The vast majority of them get the covers ripped off (to verify inventory) while the pages end up in dumpsters. The profit comes from the fact that they cost almost nothing to make and that moving them in bulk (and in NOT having to move that bulk when they don't sell). So most EU books are throwaways, just like Zane Grey and Harlequin Romance paperbacks. Individual titles don't bring in much, it's just that they don't cost anything to begin with and are moved in large quantities.