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Might as well chime in with my opinions on this.

IMO bringing Windu back in the post-ROTJ timeline would be flat out a bad idea. No, there's no definitive proof that he was killed that I'm aware of (I don't know if we can consider that line from the databank to be proof of his death), but given everything that he had been through before being hurled out the window, the chances that he could have saved himself are slim at best. Personally, I find the whole "miraculously escaped death, despite all appearances to the contrary" to be one of the most over-used tropes in fiction. Yes, it can work, but it takes a lot of effort to make it feel anything other than contrived. And then there's the whole question of what he's been doing during the 20+ years between his "death" and his reappearance. The only way that could really work properly IMO is if he was a broken, embittered shell of his former self who didn't want to have anything to do with the galaxy. Which might actually make for an interesting story, but I still don't like the idea of him surviving. Additionally, there's the problem that upcoming content from Lucas himself will be dealing with the years during which the Jedi were hunted down and destroyed, and something in there could easily invalidate any reason we came up with for Windu surviving.

Solo as a senior officer in the New Republic navy with his own command, on the other hand, is a great idea. He was previously a decorated Imperial naval officer, so he's got to have a good working knowledge of the Imperial star fleet. He was one of the heroes of Yavin and Endor, so he'll have a reputation which will probably make a lot of the crew serving under him look up to him, and respect him - a good quality for a commanding officer. I highly doubt he would replace any existing Admirals (like Ackbar), but now that they're able to act in the open, the New Republic would be increasing the size of their conventional military as quickly as possible, and Solo would be an ideal commander for a new fleet or task force. He would be especially good in command of a roving task force sent to various trouble spots in the Outer Rim due to his extensive knowledge of the criminal underbelly of that region - it could give him tactical options that wouldn't be open to other commanders. Also, his knowledge of the Hutts and the Corporate Sector would make him valuable in dealing with any conflicts with those powers (although it would probably be a little antagonistic to put him in charge of a fleet trying to negotiate a peace treaty with the Hutts).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I don't always defend DE. I just point out that if Lucas likes it (and he does) and distributed and approved it when there were practically no EU projects to boot, than the smarmy purist, "well I know that it contradicts the theme [better than GL]" is stupid.

What if I smarmily suggest that Lucas is simply out of his mind for liking it?

It has no context in this discussion, because we're talking about how to redo the EU, which necessarily kowtows to Lucas' opinion and vision. What you're talking about, is your personal vision of SW.

Do we know what exactly Lucas liked about DE? Did he actually read the story and like it or was he, like myself, just very intrigued and taken with the art?

havokeff wrote:Do we know what exactly Lucas liked about DE? Did he actually read the story and like it or was he, like myself, just very intrigued and taken with the art?

He said he liked it and he distributed it to his employees as a gift one Xmas. Why must some points-of-view be subject to extraordinary benefits of a doubt while other claims go by squeaky clean? Is there any reason you have to doubt it?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

havokeff wrote:Do we know what exactly Lucas liked about DE? Did he actually read the story and like it or was he, like myself, just very intrigued and taken with the art?

He said he liked it and he distributed it to his employees as a gift one Xmas. Why must some points-of-view be subject to extraordinary benefits of a doubt while other claims go by squeaky clean? Is there any reason you have to doubt it?

Nope. I was just curious, because when people ask me about DE, I say I like it and leave it at that. If they delve deeper however, I reveal that I REALLY liked the art work, but the story was meh.

can we get back on topic about the turd?

Someone contact Vymp or GR and ask them to split-off everything from "fan-continuity" on.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Someone contact Vymp or GR and ask them to split-off everything from "fan-continuity" on.

Ok, I'm waiting for this to be split.

Also, can someone look up something in the ROTS novelization? There's a passage in the scene where the troopers are doing search and destroy in the temple, where they're talking among themselves of seeing a "ghost", or some shadow just barely seen lurking around.

Continue on.

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Someone contact Vymp or GR and ask them to split-off everything from "fan-continuity" on.

Ok, I'm waiting for this to be split.

Also, can someone look up something in the ROTS novelization? There's a passage in the scene where the troopers are doing search and destroy in the temple, where they're talking among themselves of seeing a "ghost", or some shadow just barely seen lurking around.

For fuck's sake, as I said before, the physical possibility of Windu's survival, while pertinent, is not the only issue. Why dampen the impact of the major theme of the prequels, and why internally speaking would he available and willing and useful if he wasn't when the Rebellion and Yoda and Obi-Wan needed him most?

Ghost Rider wrote:Continue on.

Thanks big G.

So what are we discussing here, a post ROTJ with a clean slate or everything up to TUF being included?

Lord Poe wrote:Also, can someone look up something in the ROTS novelization? There's a passage in the scene where the troopers are doing search and destroy in the temple, where they're talking among themselves of seeing a "ghost", or some shadow just barely seen lurking around.

Wasn't that Yoda and Obi-wan just messing with the troopers so they could sneak in without a huge fight?

Granted they apparently went with a pretty big fight in the movie, but that was the impression I got from that scene in the novel.

It started off being TUF on being discussed, then I suggested just tossing everything post-Bantam (all NJO included in other words) and that discussion is on-going in fanfics (which should maybe be merged?), then Poe applied with an apparently total revamp post-ROTJ EU, and Galvatron is there with his tiny redo all Star Wars flag.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:and Galvatron is there with his tiny redo all Star Wars flag.

Not really, but I'm glad I inspire such paranoia in you.

I actually think DE was awful, even for the EU, and it amazes me that Lucas actually liked it. Then again, it was released back in the days when the EU was fresh and SW fans still had rose-colored visions of DE (and HTTE) as some sort of surrogate continuation of the "holy trilogy" in lieu of actual movie versions of episodes 7-9.

Since we know now that Lucas never intended to make those episodes because he tied everything up in ROTJ, I guess I can understand his admiration for Tom Veitch's ingenious writing.

You're lying if you weren't tempted to go on about your Vader isn't Anakin et al.

I think you WANT me to talk about it and you're just baiting me.

Lord Poe wrote:
Also, can someone look up something in the ROTS novelization? There's a passage in the scene where the troopers are doing search and destroy in the temple, where they're talking among themselves of seeing a "ghost", or some shadow just barely seen lurking around.

Page 374. The troopers are swarming through the Jedi Temple in the aftermath of Anakin leading them in the massacre, at this point Anakin is on Mustafar, about to begin carving the Separatist Council into itty bitty bits. The fighting "had ended hours ago" as well.

The troopers are investigating strange sights and sounds all around the deserted temple and a line states that "some of them began to suspect that the Temple was haunted."

This is going on while Yoda and Obi Wan are infiltrating the temple in order to stop the Jedi Beacon from calling Jedi back to Coruscant. Obi Wan and Yoda have apparently been taking out entire patrols (five clones each) as they make their way through.

Here is th specific passage I think you are referring to:

And there were disturbing reports as well; officers coordinating the sweeps recorded a string of sightings of movement--usually a flash of robe disappearing around a corner, caught in a trooper's peripheral vision--that on investigation seemed to have been only imagination or hallucination. There were also multiple reports of inexplicable sounds coming from out-of-the-way-areas that turned out to be deserted.

One squad of clones sees a shadowy figure in the Room of a Thousand Fountains, runs to intercept him, and they all end up dead, the mist clears and it's revealed to be Obi Wan and Yoda (top of page 375).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That changes nothing of the themes I discussed - not to mention the whole gravity of Anakin's betrayal is meaningless if Mace just decided to take a breather for a few decades. He beat Palpatine in a duel. What the fuck was he doing?! You must be joking.

We can ask the same thing of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Why didn't they gang up on Sidious, instead of letting the galaxy go to hell? Why sit on their ass for 20 years, allowing all kinds of travesties to continue on? Darth Fanboy and Rogueice have the right idea. I never said Windu would go bouncing up to Luke and say "Hai!!"

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, he represents thematically everything stupid and screwed up about the Old Jedi Order, his death is the beginning of Order 66 and the Great Purge for a reason.

And what's that, exactly? Currently, Luke has been scraping the bottom of the galactic barrel to piece together every bit of Old Republic Jedi info he could find, and builds his NJO off of that. How am I so fucking off the mark? If everything OR is to be swept away for some nebulous reason, then why have Yoda and Obi-Wan train "The New Hope"?

Because THAT IS IN THE FUCKING MOVIES.

WHAT, exactly? I saw no scroll saying, "And the lesson here, folks...". That's YOUR interpretation. As I said, Obi-Wan and Yoda were just as "Jedi" as Windu, so that does not make an argument against Windu's existence Not even thematically. If we're revamping the EU, why not have the remnants of the OJO try to teach Luke how to bring forth an improved NJO? The current EU has Luke trying to piece together the OJO. So why am I soooooo far off the mark? What's your proposal, that Luke abandon training a new breed of Jedi, and just remain an X-Wing pilot in Rogue Squadron?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yoda was not as enthusiastic about Jedi coups as Windu, he was alarmed by Jedi complacency and arrogance in AOTC, and he warned the prophecy could have been misread. So what does Windu do? Go ahead with the coup, is arrogant, sidelines and disrespects the subject of the same prophecy and then he sees he disobeyed him and came to intervene and expects him to do nothing. He's supposed to die, and usher in Anakin's betrayal and the Purge.

He effectively DOES die. He disappears for 20+ years, just as Obi-Wan and Yoda did.. Do you fucking get it, yet? Windu was no maverick; we see Obi-Wan shake his head at Anakin's outburst in ROTS as Windu dresses him down. Windu didn't go against any order Yoda gave; as Yoda's second, he executed his duty as he saw fit.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How are Yoda and Obi-Wan not Jedi?

"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father". Ring a bell?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The point is that Yoda says that Luke will be the last after he dies, bringing back movie Jedi (since we're starting over according to you) needlessly violates his statements.

Incorrect, once again. By his own admission, Obi-Wan says he's no longer a Jedi. Yoda is no longer a Jedi either. They can't be, if they're going to rethink the entire Jedi concept to defeat Sidious. That's clear in the novelization. I don't see why it's such a stretch for you to find it so impossible for Windu to come to the same conclusion, and do the same thing Obi-Wan and Yoda did.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And even defending the existing EU, bringing back no-namers is much different then, uh, THE ONE FUCKING JEDI WHO SUCCESSFULLY COULD DEFEAT PALPATINE.

Are you fucking serious? Windu didn't stand a chance at actually defeating Palpatine. You see to be trying to inject all these nebulous themes into ROTS, then completely miss what's actually there. It's quite clear the "near defeat" of Palpatine was a complete stage act on his part to turn Anakin. You can even see it in his face when thee camera cuts to him!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And for some reason, just chose not to make contact like all the other Jedi? Why? It stretches credulity past breaking.

WHAT other Jedi? Now YOU are proposing more Jedi that escaped the Purge? Are you losing the string of your own argument? Presumably, when you hide within the Force, as Yoda and Obi-Wan did, you don't send pings out so other Jedi, or FORMER Jedi like oh....say.....DARTH FUCKING VADER, can easily find you.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its terrible retread. Its uncreative. It diminishes Anakin's betrayal and undermines basically the most thematically important moment of the entire prequel trilogy. I really don't know what you're thinking.

And I don't know what you are harping on. Windu was essentially dead. Anakin's actions wouldn't be any less if Windu lived! Are you kidding me? Oh, killing Padawans isn't so bad now, because he really didn't kill Winu! Fuckin' HUH?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:First of all, not all officers in the Navy are Sea/Space Warfare specialists. The fact he was involved with slaving has me doubting his credentials on space combat.

WHAT? What the fuck are you talking about? When was Solo involved in slaving??

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Second, where is Ackbar going that Han is front and center as fucking Nelson?

Do you have a reading problem? I never said Solo would be Supreme Executive Commander Of The Entire New Republic Fleet did I? No, I said he'd be commanding a Star Destroyer. How does that boot Ackbar out of the picture?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Third, it still stands to reason his only deployment as a GENERAL is a groundside spec ops command.

Did I not explain to you that that was a specific fucking instance? Where does it state that because Solo volunteered for a SPECIFIC ground mission that that's all he's good for, for the rest of his career? Do you remember who Han Solo is?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Who cares if never commanded anyone before ROTJ? He was a FUCKING OFFICER in the Navy, Chewie never commanded anyone ever and he was never an officer, and only served as a First Mate on a smuggler's ship. Why would he be an officer?

Oh gee...I don't know, you have me there. t's not like they'd just give command to say....just any farmboy off any backwater planet.

Oh, wait...

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Is your goal to be less original than the existing EU?

And how am I doing that, exactly? It seems to me you're forgetting the entire saga!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, and why should our EU rely on the MOVIE REHASHING ENDLESSLY for plot devices. Lucas gets to play with the big stuff, and the EU does not.

Oh, I see. So the IR shouldn't make anymore Star Destroyers either, according to you? Why wouldn't they keep trying to perfect a Death Star?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Moreover, he got a rid of the two Death Stars, didn't he? I suppose what filmmakers deliberately choose not to do in favor of things they decide are better is of no material in considering their value?

He got rid of them in the context of the movie saga. We're talking about a continuation of that saga. I'm keeping with the Imperial mindset we've already seen. Are you? Again, why wouldn't they continue to perfect the Death Star? Superlasers aren't unique in the galaxy. The fucking Geonosians were using one in the bowels of their droid factory!!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why would the Death Star be more effective in combat than its weight in warships? Does it occur to you they chose to build it because it was more effective at, I don't know, cracking real tough nuts and blowing up planets like Alderaan than its equivalent in warships? Why do you have this simplistic thinking?

What is simplistic in thinking the Death Star would be the new seat of power for the IR? Sure, when they were the EMMMPIRE, the Death Star had a different role. Again, Lucas certainly didn't think it wank to have more than one type of Death Star in existence, as I showed in early drafts of ROTJ.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It doesn't magically defeat thermodynamics. Its not magically better than conventional warships; Dr. Saxton's own figures scale up directly from Acclamator to Death Star. There's nothing that says the Death Star is uniquely powerful relative to its equivalency in normal warships. Quite the opposite.

Are you nuts? You're saying that having that much power at your disposal in one vessel vs 1,000 isn't a plus? Are you serious?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:YOU MEAN LIKE THE FUCKING MOVIES? ARE YOU SHITTING ME???

Do you even think this shit through? Ok, pre-ANH, we have the EMPIRE, master of all they survey, uncontested, constructing a Death Star. Movie 2, we have the EMPIRE, master of all they survey, uncontested, constructing a Death Star, and letting the Rebels know where it is to lead them into a trap.

Kevin J Poe's EU: We have the Imperial Remnant, no longer master of all they survey, build an improved Death Star in ACTUAL secret. Do you get it now?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Jesus Christ on a fucking pogostick. You don't suppose that 20 years on the Rebellion's strength has gone up, you know, like the movie portrays, from fucking talk to battle fleets??? Like GL portrays in the goddamn parades? The Empire may have had support but why should the New Republic be impotent and unable to liberate them conventionally? How is a Death Star more capable of defending a spread-out area on the order of millions or billions of worlds than its equivalent in small individual ships? You have not thought this out.

And you are completely missing the mark. I didn't say the IR would try to retake the galaxy, at least not right away. But they'd defend their territory which included VOLUNTARY star systems that would rather live under Imperial rule. Did you miss that? Did all the parades we see represent the entire galaxy? Of course not. Otherwise, the Rebellion would have been bigger.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You mean like the Rebels found out about the Death Star I when they were a bunch of terrorists with them still waiting "until this station is fully operational"?

See above.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: For fuck's sake, as I said before, the physical possibility of Windu's survival, while pertinent, is not the only issue.

Ok, so now you're no longer dismissing the possibility that Windu could have survived. Good for you.

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That changes nothing of the themes I discussed - not to mention the whole gravity of Anakin's betrayal is meaningless if Mace just decided to take a breather for a few decades. He beat Palpatine in a duel. What the fuck was he doing?! You must be joking.

We can ask the same thing of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Why didn't they gang up on Sidious, instead of letting the galaxy go to hell? Why sit on their ass for 20 years, allowing all kinds of travesties to continue on? Darth Fanboy and Rogueice have the right idea. I never said Windu would go bouncing up to Luke and say "Hai!!"

Uh, Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't because Obi-Wan would be killed and Yoda just didn't have it. Those of us that watched the movie know this. Windu did and could beat Sidious. No comparison.

Lord Poe wrote:WHAT, exactly? I saw no scroll saying, "And the lesson here, folks...". That's YOUR interpretation. As I said, Obi-Wan and Yoda were just as "Jedi" as Windu, so that does not make an argument against Windu's existence Not even thematically.

Okay, let me spell it out for someone who apparently never saw the movies. Yoda says "When GONE AM I, THE LAST OF THE JEDI (YOU, YES YOU LUKE SKYWALKER), WILL BE." Obi-Wan is already dead, and Yoda qualifies his statement as applying once he too is dead.

Lord Poe wrote:If we're revamping the EU, why not have the remnants of the OJO try to teach Luke how to bring forth an improved NJO? The current EU has Luke trying to piece together the OJO. So why am I soooooo far off the mark? What's your proposal, that Luke abandon training a new breed of Jedi, and just remain an X-Wing pilot in Rogue Squadron?

No, he can scrape together what he can and build a new Jedi Order the hard way, without pulling some dead character out the ass who even if he survived (counterintuitively to the films), for some reason was useless or unavailable during the film period.

Lord Poe wrote:He effectively DOES die. He disappears for 20+ years, just as Obi-Wan and Yoda did.. Do you fucking get it, yet? Windu was no maverick; we see Obi-Wan shake his head at Anakin's outburst in ROTS as Windu dresses him down. Windu didn't go against any order Yoda gave; as Yoda's second, he executed his duty as he saw fit.

It is just that it is clear Windu represented the reckless and missing-the-forest-for-the-trees corruption of the OJO. The purge doesn't mean that all the Jedi had to hide like pussies even though in your case they would be capable of taking the Sith, they were "hunted down and destroyed." The betrayal has a much lesser impact if no important Jedi die. This is obvious.

Lord Poe wrote:"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father". Ring a bell?

You're obviously incapable of understanding. You can have Obi-Wan and Yoda live, but then someone should die and thematically show the cost of Anakin's betrayal. No major Jedi character dies it Windu lives, and his betrayal is the personal and first of the purge. If anyone's death is real, his ought to be. And Yoda says, "When GONE AM I, THE LAST OF THE JEDI WILL YOU BE." So clearly, on some level they still considered themselves Jedi.

Lord Poe wrote:Incorrect, once again. By his own admission, Obi-Wan says he's no longer a Jedi. Yoda is no longer a Jedi either.

Not according to Yoda, idiot. Why else would Luke be the last ONLY AFTER HE DIED? Must I teach you basic English grammar?

Lord Poe wrote:They can't be, if they're going to rethink the entire Jedi concept to defeat Sidious. That's clear in the novelization. I don't see why it's such a stretch for you to find it so impossible for Windu to come to the same conclusion, and do the same thing Obi-Wan and Yoda did.

EXCEPT MACE WINDU DID BEAT DARTH SIDIOUS; YODA COULD NOT. Everyone else got this, its in Mike's review, Publius' posts, everything. Windu just keep an eye over his shoulder for Anakin, that's not the same thing as being UNABLE to defeat them. The novelisation says "Yoda didn't have it, and never had it"; this OBVIOUSLY does not apply to Mace Windu, who defeated Darth Sidious in single combat and was a second from killing him when Anakin betrayed him.

Lord Poe wrote:Are you fucking serious? Windu didn't stand a chance at actually defeating Palpatine. You see to be trying to inject all these nebulous themes into ROTS, then completely miss what's actually there. It's quite clear the "near defeat" of Palpatine was a complete stage act on his part to turn Anakin. You can even see it in his face when thee camera cuts to him!

Wrong; the film and the principle of parsimony clearly leave the most logical SoD conclusion that Windu was capable of beating Sidious, but he missed the forest for the trees: beating Sidious was never the point. The Jedi lost by fighting, he proved to Anakin Sidious was right, and so died. But he was capable of beating Sidious. This debate has been rehashed over and over. The answer was and is definitive. He may have been playing up his vulnerability and Mace's "ruthlessness", but Windu got beaten before Anakin even got there. Windu was the better combatant.

Lord Poe wrote:WHAT other Jedi? Now YOU are proposing more Jedi that escaped the Purge? Are you losing the string of your own argument? Presumably, when you hide within the Force, as Yoda and Obi-Wan did, you don't send pings out so other Jedi, or FORMER Jedi like oh....say.....DARTH FUCKING VADER, can easily find you.

The Sith were capable of communicating under the nose of the Jedi. Sidious did not know that Yoda or Obi-Wan survived until Yoda showed up. The existing canon (EU included) establishes Jedi communication in secret and such without directly alerting the Sith. Your "pings" theory is a counterfactual fabrication to shore up your theory. It does not just lack support, it is repeatedly and directly contradicted over and over again in the canon.

Lord Poe wrote:And I don't know what you are harping on. Windu was essentially dead. Anakin's actions wouldn't be any less if Windu lived! Are you kidding me? Oh, killing Padawans isn't so bad now, because he really didn't kill Winu! Fuckin' HUH?

Thematically, his betrayal of Windu is the opposite of his saving of Luke; he crosses sides. Windu should die to bookend the beginning of the purge.

Lord Poe wrote:WHAT? What the fuck are you talking about? When was Solo involved in slaving??

That's when he met Chewie and freed him. He was not commanding warships or even serving on a bridge crew before he dropped out.

Lord Poe wrote:Do you have a reading problem? I never said Solo would be Supreme Executive Commander Of The Entire New Republic Fleet did I? No, I said he'd be commanding a Star Destroyer. How does that boot Ackbar out of the picture?

Its navally inaccurate and stupid; Han should rate an O-4 (LCDR) at best. He does not have the naval experience and such to be a commander of warships and that is not his specialty: small unit/naval aviator tactics and groundside asymmetrical warfare is.

Lord Poe wrote:Did I not explain to you that that was a specific fucking instance? Where does it state that because Solo volunteered for a SPECIFIC ground mission that that's all he's good for, for the rest of his career? Do you remember who Han Solo is?

No, it does not mean that is -all- he is good for, but its a pretty good indication he is not on track to command Star Destroyers. Do you think everyone in the navy is on their way to command an Arliegh Burke-class DDG? Is that how naive and clueless you are?

It IS a valid data point in his career, and it does not establish as reasonable your scenario.

Lord Poe wrote:Oh gee...I don't know, you have me there. t's not like they'd just give command to say....just any farmboy off any backwater planet.

Oh, wait...

Except he was "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim Territories" before he was drafted, he then performed as an amazing naval aviator, and then worked his way up to command a squadron for years. That is not what Han Solo was doing. And being a fighter pilot was in Luke's skillset, being a ship commander is not in Han's skillset. I have discussed this very issue with naval noncommissioned officers, and they seem to think my scenario is more accurate than yours. That must be because you have more expertise on the subject, right?

Lord Poe wrote:And how am I doing that, exactly? It seems to me you're forgetting the entire saga!

Lord Poe wrote:Oh, I see. So the IR shouldn't make anymore Star Destroyers either, according to you? Why wouldn't they keep trying to perfect a Death Star?

The Empire built tens of thousands of Star Destroyers of a single brand, they built two Death Stars. Maybe they wouldn't because conventional warships are a better investment of the same money, manpower, production infrastructure, logistical support, and raw materials. Do you understand what "opportunity cost" means. Do you know what a production possibilities frontier is?

Lord Poe wrote:He got rid of them in the context of the movie saga. We're talking about a continuation of that saga. I'm keeping with the Imperial mindset we've already seen. Are you? Again, why wouldn't they continue to perfect the Death Star? Superlasers aren't unique in the galaxy. The fucking Geonosians were using one in the bowels of their droid factory!

Wow. I never thought I'd get the Trekkie/TFN retard logic from you that if something is called something, than that must mean it is exactly the same. The point is not that its a composite-beam weapon or a superlaser, the point is it is the size of a fucking moon and consumes hundreds of supergiant stars' worth of energy in fuel every time it fires. And that is fuel that cannot be spent keeping another fleet afloat and fighting. THAT IS THE LIMITATION ON IT. NOT THAT THEY HAVE TROUBLE CRANKING OUT SUPERLASERS. Jesus Christ.

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why would the Death Star be more effective in combat than its weight in warships? Does it occur to you they chose to build it because it was more effective at, I don't know, cracking real tough nuts and blowing up planets like Alderaan than its equivalent in warships? Why do you have this simplistic thinking?

What is simplistic in thinking the Death Star would be the new seat of power for the IR? Sure, when they were the EMMMPIRE, the Death Star had a different role. Again, Lucas certainly didn't think it wank to have more than one type of Death Star in existence, as I showed in early drafts of ROTJ.

First, you didn't even attempt to address my issue about its particular strategic role and its opportunity cost versus conventional mobilization.

Second, I don't know, maybe uh offices and bureaucrats' buildings and stuff like we see all over Coruscant is how states in general and the Empire canonically is managed, not from the bridge of a giant siege gun. And what does this "more than one type" of Death Star about. The early drafts (WHICH HE DELIBERATELY DECLINED IN FAVOR OF WHAT WE GOT) displayed two Death Stars. So what?

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It doesn't magically defeat thermodynamics. Its not magically better than conventional warships; Dr. Saxton's own figures scale up directly from Acclamator to Death Star. There's nothing that says the Death Star is uniquely powerful relative to its equivalency in normal warships. Quite the opposite.

Are you nuts? You're saying that having that much power at your disposal in one vessel vs 1,000 isn't a plus? Are you serious?

If you're shooting at single point targets like extremely fortified planets, sure. But otherwise, its a lot less versatile. Maybe that's why for tens of thousands of years people spent their money and shit on fleets and only after they were around and such, they built Death Stars as extra. Do you grasp that the Death Star's logistical train would be highly vulnerable? Its not going to be able to fire and travel throughout the galaxy hundreds of times, its only going to be able to fire and jump a dozen or so times without refueling, by Dr. Saxton's own figures on fuel density and fuel consumption.

Lord Poe wrote:Do you even think this shit through? Ok, pre-ANH, we have the EMPIRE, master of all they survey, uncontested, constructing a Death Star. Movie 2, we have the EMPIRE, master of all they survey, uncontested, constructing a Death Star, and letting the Rebels know where it is to lead them into a trap.

Kevin J Poe's EU: We have the Imperial Remnant, no longer master of all they survey, build an improved Death Star in ACTUAL secret. Do you get it now?

Why? Becuase its KEWL? The Empire wanted a Death Star to counter the powers in their own right represented by Alderaan and other worlds with their own militaries, powerful political connections, and extreme fortifications ("could generation sympathy for the Rebellion in the Senate"), accordingly Palps disbands the Senate and the Death Star provides the strategic niche to keep those "Great Powers" of the Core from resisting.

Lord Poe wrote:And you are completely missing the mark. I didn't say the IR would try to retake the galaxy, at least not right away. But they'd defend their territory which included VOLUNTARY star systems that would rather live under Imperial rule. Did you miss that? Did all the parades we see represent the entire galaxy? Of course not. Otherwise, the Rebellion would have been bigger.

Yes, and how are the voluntarily pro-Rebellion worlds going to join the New Republic while they are still under the first of the Imperial Navy? Say pretty-please? NO. The Rebellion WILL CONTINUE THE CIVIL WAR, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO STOP WITH WORLDS THEY SUSPECT WOULD LIKE TO JOIN. How would the Empire credibly claim any worlds voluntarily belong to it? They've abolished the representative organs of government. As I said, ridiculously naive.

Lord Poe wrote:See above.

DS1 was supposed to be secret. No dodging that one.

IP, you're being completely fucking ridiculous, and I'll leave you to it. You're completely, totally, 100% wrong about Han Solo being involved in slavery. Proof, please?

You still try to say that Windu beat Palpatine, even though those of us that actually watched the movie could see that he was hardly cowed by Windu. It was a fucking ruse, plain as day.

You got me with Yoda's line in ROTJ, yet you completely side stepped Obi-Wan's admission that he was no longer a Jedi.

Plain and simple; unless you see a body, a character isn't dead. Lucas even acknowledges this for fucking Boba Fett. That's the basic premise these movies were based on.

So in your EU revamp, the Empire stops being the Empire. I get it.

I was speaking of Luke=Chewbacca, not Luke=Han Solo. And the "years" Luke "moved up the ranks" was less than three!

Gee, I'm SO far off the mark!

Lord Poe wrote:IP, you're being completely fucking ridiculous, and I'll leave you to it. You're completely, totally, 100% wrong about Han Solo being involved in slavery. Proof, please?

Wookieepedia, I know, but whatever wrote:Solo graduated at the top of his class with the rank of lieutenant. However, his hard-earned military career was short lived. In 5 BBY, he was dispatched to aid Commander Nyklas in duties including slaving and construction work. In this capacity, Han boarded a derelict slaving craft to find that its cargo (Wookiee children) had escaped and that a badly wounded Wookiee was in the pilot's seat. Nyklas ordered Han to skin the helpless Chewbacca, but Han refused and Nyklas swore to punish the Corellian. Shortly afterwards, Han and Chewbacca were put to work on the construction of a new wing of the Imperial Hall of Heroes on Coruscant by Wookiee slaves. An enraged Chewbacca turned on Nyklas, who drew his blaster on the Wookiee. Solo refused to let Chewbacca die; he stunned his commanding officer and helped Chewbacca escape, with the assistance of the Rebel Alliance. Court-martialled and dishonorably discharged, Solo returned to smuggling with Chewbacca (who had sworn a life debt to the Corellian) at his side.[6]

Han's backstory for meeting Chewie because the latter was an Imperial slave is well established.

Lord Poe wrote:You still try to say that Windu beat Palpatine, even though those of us that actually watched the movie could see that he was hardly cowed by Windu. It was a fucking ruse, plain as day.

Uh, really, Poe? Last time I checked, you're expected to provide more than say-so that your opinion is correct.

Mike says it better than I ever could:

Darth Wong wrote:I would challenge any of the Palpatine wankers to find any actual evidence that he deliberately allowed Windu to knock his saber away and leave him helpless. Because that interpretation is frankly absurd on its face, and the novelization says nothing about any such deliberate self-endangerment. So all you have is "well, I think he's more powerful so he can't lose", which is bullshit. Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan and still lost.

This search contains at least 4 or 5 threads where this was rehashed over and over. The consensus and the logical conclusion under the available evidence and parsimony is clear.

Lord Poe wrote:You got me with Yoda's line in ROTJ, yet you completely side stepped Obi-Wan's admission that he was no longer a Jedi.

Who gives a shit about semantics? Obi-Wan have considered himself no longer formally a Jedi, Yoda obviously did. The SUBSTANCE is both were still in cahoots, still looking to train Jedi apprentices (especially guarding and developing the talent of the Skywalker twins), and still looking to undermine and overthrow the Sith. What I want to know is the one Jedi who was able to handle Palpatine mano e mano, whether or not he continues to call himself a Jedi or some bullshit, choose to sit everything out and hide even from his comrades. You offered some "pinging" bullshit you made up but you won't even try to defend that because you know its crap.

Lord Poe wrote:Plain and simple; unless you see a body, a character isn't dead. Lucas even acknowledges this for fucking Boba Fett. That's the basic premise these movies were based on.

You still haven't offered a shred of evidence why this is necessary or desirable for Luke's reconstruction of the Jedi Order. If he's so burned out he was useless for the OT period, why would he be available later? It just makes no fucking sense.

Lord Poe wrote:So in your EU revamp, the Empire stops being the Empire. I get it.

I guess you're such a "ooh its kewl it was in the films" fan that you think the Empire is not the Empire unless it builds a Death Star? Because the Empire declared in ROTS would have TOTALLY NOT WORKED if there'd been no framework at the end for 20 seconds, and TESB was a total failure in portraying the Empire. This is the most simplistic and bullshit take on the series I've heard. Maybe I am just too crazy, but somehow I think the gravitas and feel of the Empire in a story is not established by having them order an ACME Death Star every time they want to twist their mustache and cause evil. Give me a break. You're not even trying to justify it.

Lord Poe wrote:I was speaking of Luke=Chewbacca, not Luke=Han Solo. And the "years" Luke "moved up the ranks" was less than three!

Uh, all fighter pilots are officers, Poe. Luke necessarily was commissioned to serve in Yavin. So Luke was working his way up over three years consistently at a single job. No evidence Chewie was an officer (a civilian first mate is not equivalent to a fighter pilot). And those three years Han spent have commitment issues with the Rebellion and doing odd jobs and avoiding Jabba.

Lord Poe wrote:Gee, I'm SO far off the mark!

Well, according to my knowledge of the military, and consulting with a servicemen, yeah, I think you are wrong and don't have a clue. Even GL has a better grasp of what is militarily plausible and realistic. But I guess realism only matters when you're personally well-versed in whatever field realism is being judged by, hm? This is the same bullshit excuse TFNers with no education use to justify "no physics ever because its like hard and has numbers."

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It has no context in this discussion, because we're talking about how to redo the EU, which necessarily kowtows to Lucas' opinion and vision. What you're talking about, is your personal vision of SW.

Why does an improved Expanded Universe necessarily have to conform to George "Evil" Lucas's "vision" everywhere, anywhere and forever? Does this not mean, for example, that there must be irritating "crazy alien" characters in every story? In addition, how to judge when the supposed "vision" is internally inconsistent? Are we then always supposed to go by the latest canon? What about contradictions? "Evil" changing his mind?

I would much rather see an internally consistent construct that salvaged the good ideas in the current EU (yes, even Jedi Prince had those, if few and far between), written out to make sense, while removing only the lamest and most mindbogglingly stupid ones. Perhaps one could call it a co-ordination/realignment effort, rather than a total reboot.

(This all assuming it is a total reboot that we are discussing. I would also be perfectly fine with merely re-imagining the Vong War and beyond.)

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It has no context in this discussion, because we're talking about how to redo the EU, which necessarily kowtows to Lucas' opinion and vision. What you're talking about, is your personal vision of SW.

Why does an improved Expanded Universe necessarily have to conform to George "Evil" Lucas's "vision" everywhere, anywhere and forever? Does this not mean, for example, that there must be irritating "crazy alien" characters in every story?

No, the EU should just follow spiritually and factually intinuitively from the filmic canon.

Darth Hoth wrote:In addition, how to judge when the supposed "vision" is internally inconsistent?

I don't know, maybe logic and analysis, like we figure with everything else?

Darth Hoth wrote:Are we then always supposed to go by the latest canon? What about contradictions? "Evil" changing his mind?

It should flow from the most intuitive in-universe explanation incorporating all the available information.

Darth Hoth wrote:I would much rather see an internally consistent construct that salvaged the good ideas in the current EU (yes, even Jedi Prince had those, if few and far between), written out to make sense, while removing only the lamest and most mindbogglingly stupid ones. Perhaps one could call it a co-ordination/realignment effort, rather than a total reboot.

I too, could appreciate a relative "reinterpretation" of much of the early EU, especially with regard to grevious scale errors and uninspired or unrealistic plot devices. Except I don't know who I'd trust to do it right.

Darth Hoth wrote:(This all assuming it is a total reboot that we are discussing. I would also be perfectly fine with merely re-imagining the Vong War and beyond.)

That's what we were talking about until Poe's post. And still are in the other thread.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, the EU should just follow spiritually and factually intinuitively from the filmic canon.

In that case, I have no problem with it; my reaction was perhaps uncalled for. It was merely a conditioned reflex to go on the defensive when the "vision" was mentioned; most of those I have debated elsewhere speaking in those terms have been movie purists and mindless pro-Lucas drones, and thus when it was brought up I feared a complete and utter purge of Expanded Universe elements.

I don't know, maybe logic and analysis, like we figure with everything else?

It should flow from the most intuitive in-universe explanation incorporating all the available information.

Again, I would support that.

I too, could appreciate a relative "reinterpretation" of much of the early EU, especially with regard to grevious scale errors and uninspired or unrealistic plot devices. Except I don't know who I'd trust to do it right.

If the proposed EU "reintegration" initiative is to be a collaborative project, perhaps we could agree on a basis of common elements to build the stories on as a group, developing fleet size, presence/absence of certain superweapons, et cetera, together? Maybe even form a small database keeping track on the galaxy, if multiple stories are written at once? One could perhaps also apply a "peer review" principle on a case-by-case basis.

That's what we were talking about until Poe's post. And still are in the other thread.

Yes, but which one will it be in the end? I do not think we should do both, that would be asking for confusion, and probably too large a piece to digest all at once. I could settle for either, I am just waiting for a consensus to be established.

Meh, I feel like the editing to make the Bantam run less ridiculous can be committed merely to one's head; the grand sweep of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and the following eras is much more grevious.

The advantage of a common information base would be one of clarity (everyone will absolutely certain what the deal is, it will be the exact same for everyone, and there will be no arguments half-way through a project) as well as ease of memory. Perhaps I am over-organising, but as I understood it, the project, if it does take off, would be quite large, and then it would certainly be an aid.

It is all just suggestions, of course; I have not really contributed to any major collaboration before, and would not presume to know exactly how such are to be done.