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Galvatron wrote:The problem with placing Jabba anywhere else is that Luke specifically tells Lando that he'll rendezvous with them on Tatooine at the end of TESB. Why go there if not to follow Boba Fett?

To go to Ben's place and get the kit to build a nw lightsaber. Admittedly that is from SOTE but I think it would be a fine beginning to the movie as a whole. Have a brief scene of Luke finally getting his new lightsabre working and then cut into everyone else getting into deeper and deeper shit at Jabba's before Luke comes to bail them out.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Galvatron wrote:The problem with placing Jabba anywhere else is that Luke specifically tells Lando that he'll rendezvous with them on Tatooine at the end of TESB. Why go there if not to follow Boba Fett?

THAT rendezvous wasn't ROTJ anyway; it was in SOTE.

Yeah, but it is talked about in TESB. There needs to be a reason for it, if at the very least, just to start the mission to find Han. I guess you don't have to have Jabba on Tattooine since Lando says; "Princess. We'll find Han.", which can be taken as they don't know where Han is.

The thing here is that Jabba's presence in the form of Greedo has been established on Tattooine in ANH. The OP says that this is the franchise in 1980, so SE Jabba hasn't been added back to ANH and at this point we really don't know who or what Jabba is other than a gangster. There has also been no mention of where he is. He doesn't have to be the galaxy spanning crime lord that he ended up or even a big giant slug for that matter.

havokeff wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:The problme is that anytime you seperate Anakin and Vader you run smack again the world's most famous movie line. You either have to create a HUGELY convoluted explanation (which detracts from the power of the statement) or you have to basically say that vader lied and it isn't true (which, again, detracts from the statement. The whole last 10 minutes of TESB is essentially MEANINGLESS if you seperate Anakin and Vader, there is no point to the constant back and forth, there is no drama in Luke's agony and helplessness and there really is no impact so we should just end with Luke running scared after his hand is cut because everything after that is predicated upon the truth of the statement.

Why? Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. The meaning of the line doesn't change at all. Vader IS Luke's father. What needs to change is that Obi-Wan ALSO doesn't know that Vader is Luke's father, and since per the OP only ANH and ESB are set in stone this is a non-problem.

"Obi Wan never told you what happened to your father."
"He told me enough! He told me, you killed him."
"No. I, am your father."

Which is exactly what Ben told him. Vader still could have killed Anakin and fathered Luke with out making things too convoluted. And all the drama of Luke finding out he is the son of the most feared villain in the galaxy, and not the Clone Wars hero he thought, still holds true.

I'm not worried about that moment in and of itself. If it was JUST that moment then you could explain it any of a dozen ways. The problem is the entire sequence in the Falcon. There is no way that Luke and Vader can converse that way without there being a true link and frankly I think that for all the rest of the late teen early adult thematic elements having Luke be the product of his mom being raped goes against just about everything I can imagine the series being about. There is no heroics about the rape victim's son coming back to kill the rapist that's a revenge film and they are a dime a dozen, and if he tries to redeem the rapist then its even more retarded. Simply put Luke becomes a much darker character in a series that is about the black and white. There is no heroism in pure revenge but there is in redeeming a fallen father.

CmdrWilkens wrote:

havokeff wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:The problme is that anytime you seperate Anakin and Vader you run smack again the world's most famous movie line. You either have to create a HUGELY convoluted explanation (which detracts from the power of the statement) or you have to basically say that vader lied and it isn't true (which, again, detracts from the statement. The whole last 10 minutes of TESB is essentially MEANINGLESS if you seperate Anakin and Vader, there is no point to the constant back and forth, there is no drama in Luke's agony and helplessness and there really is no impact so we should just end with Luke running scared after his hand is cut because everything after that is predicated upon the truth of the statement.

Why? Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. The meaning of the line doesn't change at all. Vader IS Luke's father. What needs to change is that Obi-Wan ALSO doesn't know that Vader is Luke's father, and since per the OP only ANH and ESB are set in stone this is a non-problem.

"Obi Wan never told you what happened to your father."
"He told me enough! He told me, you killed him."
"No. I, am your father."

Which is exactly what Ben told him. Vader still could have killed Anakin and fathered Luke with out making things too convoluted. And all the drama of Luke finding out he is the son of the most feared villain in the galaxy, and not the Clone Wars hero he thought, still holds true.

I'm not worried about that moment in and of itself. If it was JUST that moment then you could explain it any of a dozen ways. The problem is the entire sequence in the Falcon. There is no way that Luke and Vader can converse that way without there being a true link and frankly I think that for all the rest of the late teen early adult thematic elements having Luke be the product of his mom being raped goes against just about everything I can imagine the series being about. There is no heroics about the rape victim's son coming back to kill the rapist that's a revenge film and they are a dime a dozen, and if he tries to redeem the rapist then its even more retarded. Simply put Luke becomes a much darker character in a series that is about the black and white. There is no heroism in pure revenge but there is in redeeming a fallen father.

As far as rape goes you could just as easily make it a seduction that Luke's mom willingly took part in, a love triangle from the past. That obviously isn't unprecedented, as ANH and TESB both have hints of it. That is why I put "raped/seduced" in the post I think you are referring to.

The connection is explained by the simple line; "Search your feelings you KNOW it to be true!" Which Luke then does and realizing the truth gives the best "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" in movie history.

And what you are saying doesn't make sense... Why is there no way Luke and Vader could converse that way, nothing changes if Vader is Luke's father and is not Anakin, then if he is Anakin. They are still father and son. He just isn't Anakin, whom Luke never even knew. Or are you just saying that if Luke is the product of rape, there wouldn't be a true connection between them?

What's the SOTE you guys are mentioning?

Sidewinder

Shadows Of The Empire

Sidewinder wrote:What's the SOTE you guys are mentioning?

Unless I'm mistaken, that would be Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry (who shares the name with the legendary vocalist of Journey!), a book set in between ESB and RotJ.

As far as rape goes you could just as easily make it a seduction that Luke's mom willingly took part in, a love triangle from the past. That obviously isn't unprecedented, as ANH and TESB both have hints of it. That is why I put "raped/seduced" in the post I think you are referring to.

"I'm a product of rape or sketchy sex" still doesn't have the same impact as "My childhood hero is actually a mass-murdering psychopath."

Even in 1980, did anyone think after watching the end of ESB that Vader had simply had sex with Anakin's wife? If you try to introduce that concept in the sequel, it has the unfortunate side-effect of defusing the previous realization. It will also give Luke a very compelling reason to murder Vader ("This one's for my mom and my REAL father!") which probably isn't what you want. Why would Luke feel driven to redeem someone who was always an asshole?

Guys, I think it's important to remember that Return of the Jedi was a big huge success all on its own. So one has to tread carefully as to what one changes. In my opinion, the thematic elements need to be left alone. They are the easily the strongest part of the movie, don't fuck with them. I wanted to change Jabba the Hutt to not being from Tatoonie because that actually harms one of the core themes of Star Wars, that of there being a huge galaxy out there. The place doesn't seem so big if important shit happens back where you started.

Anguirus wrote:

As far as rape goes you could just as easily make it a seduction that Luke's mom willingly took part in, a love triangle from the past. That obviously isn't unprecedented, as ANH and TESB both have hints of it. That is why I put "raped/seduced" in the post I think you are referring to.

"I'm a product of rape or sketchy sex" still doesn't have the same impact as "My childhood hero is actually a mass-murdering psychopath."

Even in 1980, did anyone think after watching the end of ESB that Vader had simply had sex with Anakin's wife? If you try to introduce that concept in the sequel, it has the unfortunate side-effect of defusing the previous realization. It will also give Luke a very compelling reason to murder Vader ("This one's for my mom and my REAL father!") which probably isn't what you want. Why would Luke feel driven to redeem someone who was always an asshole?

Vader STILL was once a Jedi. He fell to the Dark Side and betrayed and hunted down the Jedi in this duel person scenario. He murdered Anakin, which now makes Obi Wan tell the truth and not this "own point of view" BS.

I mean what makes more sense...

"I am your father. Obi Wan lied to you. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, we are both the same person."
Or...
"I am your father, BUT Obi Wan thought it was Anakin. We both loved the same woman and she loved us both, we fought over her and I killed Anakin."

Personally, after 30 years of observing how people act, the second one seems way more plausible.

Edit: IIRC in 1980, that was one of the theories being batted around. Is Vader lying? If he isn't, then did he hump Luke's mom??
Based on what Obi-Wan said, in 1980 why would anyone think they were the same person. Vader said he was Luke's dad, but never said he was Anakin Skywalker and like I said, Ben said specifically said that Vader killed his dad. Although I think the novel clarified things, but I'll have to check...

Ok just got done checking. In TESB novel there is no mention of Anakin. Luke doesn't make the leap to "Ben lied, Vader and my dad are the same person." He realizes that Ben lied, but about who his father was, not that they were the same person.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why not just be Anakin's daughter? Before Vader got his wife pregnant with Luke?

Because that would make her Luke's half-sister, which would put the kibosh on the love-interest angle.

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why not just be Anakin's daughter? Before Vader got his wife pregnant with Luke?

Because that would make her Luke's half-sister, which would put the kibosh on the love-interest angle.

But having her be the genetic duplicate of his father wouldn't? Hope they don't want kids!

havokeff wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why not just be Anakin's daughter? Before Vader got his wife pregnant with Luke?

Because that would make her Luke's half-sister, which would put the kibosh on the love-interest angle.

But having her be the genetic duplicate of his father wouldn't? Hope they don't want kids!

She's the genetic duplicate of Anakin, not Vader. Thus, she's not related to Luke.

Another change I'd make is this: Vader doesn't fall in Episode III. It happens in Episode II when he duels Anakin. This doesn't happen because of Vader's seduction of his wife (which Anakin is unaware of), but because Anakin goes rogue after Admiral Tarkin (yes, Tarkin is prominent in my prequels) orders his fleet to BDZ the Mandalorian homeworld. Countless trillions are killed. Anakin is horrified.

Vader sides with Tarkin. The climactic duel ends with Anakin victorious, but a fugitive. Vader is horribly wounded, thus he gets the suit at the end of Episode II. Meaning he spends all of Episode III as the Vader we all know and love.

Galvatron wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Galvatron wrote: Because that would make her Luke's half-sister, which would put the kibosh on the love-interest angle.

But having her be the genetic duplicate of his father wouldn't? Hope they don't want kids!

She's the genetic duplicate of Anakin, not Vader. Thus, she's not related to Luke.

Oh. Duh, right.

Vader STILL was once a Jedi. He fell to the Dark Side and betrayed and hunted down the Jedi in this duel person scenario.

Who cares if he started out on the "right side?" In this scenario, Vader is always something of a jerk. No one cares about jerks who happened to work (and torture) for the good guys at first. People care about the redemption of a hero.

This Vader sounds like an asshole who is willing to go against his master on behalf of his son. This is arguably a biological imperative, rather than evidence that there is any redeeming quality in him or ever was to begin with. I realize that this would be naturally developed in the story, but from the basic plot outline the most basic reason for people to care about Vader isn't there.

He murdered Anakin, which now makes Obi Wan tell the truth and not this "own point of view" BS.

See below. Obi-Wan is either a liar or a moron, and I prefer liar.

Personally, after 30 years of observing how people act, the second one seems way more plausible.

Also depressingly mundane. It also, as I said, makes Obi-Wan a bit of a twit.

Based on what Obi-Wan said, in 1980 why would anyone think they were the same person.

I always thought Luke did. "Why didn't you tell me?"

(I'm of the younger generation, but I did watch the films in order and was old enough to have this impression.)

He realizes that Ben lied, but about who his father was, not that they were the same person.

Not that WHO was not the same person? Ben lied (oh noes, look, we still have that plot element) and Luke is confused, but does he actually think "Gee, I wonder who my mother's real husband was?" He doesn't know shit about shit other than that Ben told him Vader murdered his father, and that Ben's a fucking liar and Vader IS his father. He gets the details cleared up for him in RotJ but I still feel like the writing's on the wall by the end of ESB.

Anguirus wrote:Who cares if he started out on the "right side?" In this scenario, Vader is always something of a jerk. No one cares about jerks who happened to work (and torture) for the good guys at first. People care about the redemption of a hero.

And yet somehow Star Wars was a phenomenal success and Vader was immensely popular as a villain long before he was a fallen hero.

You don't think that saving his son, turning against the Empire, helping the rebels and eventually killing the emperor wouldn't be a suitable enough redemption to make people care for Vader?

And yet somehow Star Wars was a phenomenal success and Vader was immensely popular as a villain long before he was a fallen hero.

There's a big difference between popular villain (i.e. "love to hate") and a character who you actually, seriously care about. I'm a huge Starscream fan but I laugh my ass off when he gets vaped by your namesake. Darth Vader gets shot into space at the end of Star Wars. People were excited about him returning to kick ass, not because they thought he was going to turn into a good person.

Perhaps I should clarify...you could elaborate on this story and make people care about Vader by developing his character. But the theme of "hero redeemed," which is very powerful, is totally gone. The question becomes "Can I bring a torture-loving, mommy-raping jerkface to the Light Side?" And the answer is, "Why would you want to?"

You don't think that saving his son, turning against the Empire, helping the rebels and eventually killing the emperor wouldn't be a suitable enough redemption to make people care for Vader?

Not as much as I care for the guy who was a hero to billions, loved Obi-Wan like a father, and just fell into the Dark Side by trying to do the right thing for his lover and unborn child.

Of course you can start having Vader rack up the good deeds as early as Episode VI, but good luck selling it as a realistic change in his character. Don't misrepresent me; it could be done. But not only is it inherently less believable, but it is inherently less interesting.

Anguirus wrote:

Vader STILL was once a Jedi. He fell to the Dark Side and betrayed and hunted down the Jedi in this duel person scenario.

Who cares if he started out on the "right side?" In this scenario, Vader is always something of a jerk. No one cares about jerks who happened to work (and torture) for the good guys at first. People care about the redemption of a hero.

Really? Who cares? How about everyone who has seen SW the way it is right now.. you know, how Vader started out as Anakin, on the right side, turned into a jerk and was redeemed.

This Vader sounds like an asshole who is willing to go against his master on behalf of his son. This is arguably a biological imperative, rather than evidence that there is any redeeming quality in him or ever was to begin with. I realize that this would be naturally developed in the story, but from the basic plot outline the most basic reason for people to care about Vader isn't there.

Vader in SW was an ass hole, who was willing to go against his master Obi-Wan, and WIPE OUT the entire Jedi order, for his love of Padme AND then did exactly what you say is "arguably a biological imperative, rather than evidence that there is any redeeming quality in him or ever was to begin with." when he , SURPRISE! Was "willing to go against his master on behalf of his son."

Do you like what I did there? How I used your exact words to describe Vader as he is RIGHT NOW!

He murdered Anakin, which now makes Obi Wan tell the truth and not this "own point of view" BS.

See below. Obi-Wan is either a liar or a moron, and I prefer liar.

How would Luke's mother not telling Obi-Wan who Luke's real father is make him a "moron"?

Personally, after 30 years of observing how people act, the second one seems way more plausible.

Also depressingly mundane. It also, as I said, makes Obi-Wan a bit of a twit.

Again... How does Obi-Wan not knowing the truth make him a "twit"?

Based on what Obi-Wan said, in 1980 why would anyone think they were the same person.

I always thought Luke did. "Why didn't you tell me?"

(I'm of the younger generation, but I did watch the films in order and was old enough to have this impression.)

Why didn't you tell me that VADER was my father. Not why didn't you tell me that Vader is my father and he didn't actually kill Anakin, but really is the same person. You immediately assume that Anakin, who isn't even mentioned by name in ANH or TESB, is the same person as Vader, even though Obi-Wan says specifically that Vader murdered Luke's father. I call bullshit, because Anakin and Vader being the same person isn't explained until ROTJ.

He realizes that Ben lied, but about who his father was, not that they were the same person.

Not that WHO was not the same person? Ben lied (oh noes, look, we still have that plot element) and Luke is confused, but does he actually think "Gee, I wonder who my mother's real husband was?" He doesn't know shit about shit other than that Ben told him Vader murdered his father, and that Ben's a fucking liar and Vader IS his father. He gets the details cleared up for him in RotJ but I still feel like the writing's on the wall by the end of ESB.

The writing's on the wall? How do you make that jump? You don't.
If you were 20 and thought your dad died in Vietnam, because your uncle told you so and he WAS THERE and some other guy comes and tells you he is actually your father and has proof, do you immediately think "This guy and my dad must be the same person and my uncle is a fucking liar!" OR "This guy must be my REAL dad and the guy who I thought is my dad is still dead in Vietnam."

I can see it now...


INT: Evil lair

The Emperor: Welcome, young Skywalker. I'm looking forward to completing your training.
Darth Vader: His light sabre.
The Emperor: Ah yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know your father is a mass-murderer and your mother was a whore! Gwah hah hah hah...
Luke: You are gravely mistaken!
The Emperor: Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. For instance, that girl that you are screwing... is sort of your stepfather! In an interesting night-time television type of way...
Luke: No!
The Emperor: It was unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... fucked. Might as well join the Dark Side now, son.
Luke: ... "Son"?
The Emperor: Young fool, only now do you understand. Don't you know I was played by a woman in ESB?
Luke: So you're...
The Emperor: Yes! Your mother!
*dun dun dun dunnnnn*
Luke: Yep... Didn't see that one coming either... ¬_¬


Yeah... I would watch that...

Dooey Jo wrote:I can see it now...


INT: Evil lair

The Emperor: Welcome, young Skywalker. I'm looking forward to completing your training.
Darth Vader: His light sabre.
The Emperor: Ah yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know your father is a mass-murderer and your mother was a whore! Gwah hah hah hah...
Luke: You are gravely mistaken!
The Emperor: Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. For instance, that girl that you are screwing... is sort of your stepfather! In an interesting night-time television type of way...
Luke: No!
The Emperor: It was unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... fucked. Might as well join the Dark Side now, son.
Luke: ... "Son"?
The Emperor: Young fool, only now do you understand. Don't you know I was played by a woman in ESB?
Luke: So you're...
The Emperor: Yes! Your mother!
*dun dun dun dunnnnn*
Luke: Yep... Didn't see that one coming either... ¬_¬


Yeah... I would watch that...

Good thing that as per the OP ROTJ hasn't been made yet.

Dooey Jo wrote:The Emperor: It was unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... fucked. Might as well join the Dark Side now, son.
Luke: ... "Son"?
The Emperor: Young fool, only now do you understand. Don't you know I was played by a woman in ESB?
Luke: So you're...
The Emperor: Yes! Your mother!
*dun dun dun dunnnnn*
Luke: Yep... Didn't see that one coming either... ¬_¬

Galvatron, just give up on making Anakin and Vader different people-- please don't turn 'Return of the Jedi' into 'The Jerry Springer Show'.

Sidewinder wrote:

Dooey Jo wrote:The Emperor: It was unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now... fucked. Might as well join the Dark Side now, son.
Luke: ... "Son"?
The Emperor: Young fool, only now do you understand. Don't you know I was played by a woman in ESB?
Luke: So you're...
The Emperor: Yes! Your mother!
*dun dun dun dunnnnn*
Luke: Yep... Didn't see that one coming either... ¬_¬

Galvatron, just give up on making Anakin and Vader different people-- please don't turn 'Return of the Jedi' into 'The Jerry Springer Show'.

Don't you guys read the OP? ROTJ isn't made and has no rules as to what has to happen. There doesn't even need to be a confrontation in the next movie as I believe Galvatron is going the 9 movie route.

I'm glad that at least havokeff gets it. Some of the other replies in this thread really make me think that Yoda was on to something when he told Luke, "You must unlearn what you have learned."

Really? Who cares? How about everyone who has seen SW the way it is right now.. you know, how Vader started out as Anakin, on the right side, turned into a jerk and was redeemed.

We know that Anakin had redeeming qualities once-upon-a-time. He was the great pilot/hero, loved Luke's mother, etc. But this version of Vader hasn't done anything good except spawn Skywalker. He was an adulterer before he even fell to the Dark Side.

Do you like what I did there? How I used your exact words to describe Vader as he is RIGHT NOW!

You amuse me. Of course Anakin/Vader is an asshole. The way the movies stand now, we see him BECOME an asshole and then, at the end of his life, TURN AWAY and become the hero of prophecy.

Galvatron's Vader appears to start in ass-land, and then Luke would be driven to save him simply because of their biological link, and not because he is the hero he has looked up to for his entire life.

How would Luke's mother not telling Obi-Wan who Luke's real father is make him a "moron"?

Because Obi-Wan is Vader's master, Anakin's best friend, and has the fucking Force.

Again... How does Obi-Wan not knowing the truth make him a "twit"?

How exactly do you and Galvatron intend to explain Obi-Wan's ignorance? It's not remotely plausible.

You immediately assume that Anakin, who isn't even mentioned by name in ANH or TESB, is the same person as Vader

"Luke's father" is already established as the best star pilot in the galaxy and a hero of the Clone Wars. He is unnamed, but he IS a character. When Vader says that he is Luke's father, that is what I understood. At the very least the possibility was rather strongly on the table, and Luke was immediately angry at Obi-Wan for not telling him. Notice the lack of Obi-Wan showing up at the end of ESB saying "Holy shit, I did not see that coming!"

I call bullshit, because Anakin and Vader being the same person isn't explained until ROTJ.

Do you honestly think that Luke's emotional anguish over the true identity of his father was going to be followed up by "Hey, not to worry! Anakin didn't fall to the Dark Side, he was just a cuckold!"

Luke: "You know what? You may be my BIOLOGICAL father, but you're not my REAL father, and if there's any good in you I don't care. Eat lightsabre, bitch."

If you were 20 and thought your dad died in Vietnam, because your uncle told you so and he WAS THERE and some other guy comes and tells you he is actually your father and has proof, do you immediately think "This guy and my dad must be the same person and my uncle is a fucking liar!" OR "This guy must be my REAL dad and the guy who I thought is my dad is still dead in Vietnam."

Probably not, but then again me and my uncle don't have the fucking Force. It also depends on if the guy is saying "Dude, I fucked your mom" or "Dude, I'm the father your uncle told you about, returned at long last!"

At any rate, you analogy also fails because Star Wars is not real life. We are discussing Galvatron's artistic choice vs. Lucas' artistic choice. The former artist has now resorted to telling his critics that they "just don't get it" instead of considering why some people don't want Star Wars to be about who Padme's baby daddy.

Remember just because Lucas didn't have Vader be Anakin in his first plot outlines, doesn't mean it wasn't a good direction to take the story. I'm not saying your take on Star Wars is without merit, but I believe it would be quite difficult to make it more compelling than the "real" one.