How do Trekkies envision the defeat of the Empire?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-02 01:33am

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I'm not assuming anything. I'm challenging the assumption that you can scale build time linearly with size. There's no reason to think that, so you can't really use the DS2 to estimate how quickly they could build ISD's. It's still useful as a thought exercise to show how much more industrial might the Empire has than the Feds, but not to generate estimates.

Yeah. In real-life, any such estimates would probably be much too low. Huge structures take a very long time to build and require all manner of specialized technology to do so, and you could much more easily build a shitload of small structures that add up to the same floor space.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-10-02 01:34am

Also while you could possibly build a tremendous number of Star Destroyers you also have to account for the personal, supplies, and armaments for these ships as well.

Personnel? They have a million system Empire with countless heavily populate dplanets from which they can draw recruits, and that's before factoring in cloning and droids. Just because Thrawn had a petty remnant of the real thing doesn't mean the Empire at its peak didn't have access to all the people they'd need to crew an enourmous SD fleet.

I do understand that highspeed cloning is a possibility but there must be SOME kinds of blockages in the system or SW is going to get more wank than ST.

It already is vastly overwanked compared with anything Trek could hope to accomplish.

JGregory32 · Post by **JGregory32** » 2007-10-02 02:43am

Which excepting the personell are already provided for by building the thing in the first place.

How does building the damn thing result in filling the food stores, the water supply, fuel supply, ammuniation (for the ship, the TIE's, and the troops), and spare parts?
How does

Okay, if we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

turn into

No they don't.They simply assume the DS has the same average density as a Star Destroyer.

It seems to me that the calcs are for a solid sphere that is then compared to a solid object in the shape of a Star Destroyer. What's more it seems that Aratech is saying that a 60% of a sphere measuring 900 kilometers in diameter is equal to 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Now why don't you show us they exist.

I realise that is has been a while since I saw the movies but it did seem that the Falcon entered a rather large void in the center of the DSII, this void was large enough for the Falcon to manuver and attack the "primary stabalizer" if I remember correctly.

I do understand that highspeed cloning is a possibility but there must be SOME kinds of blockages in the system or SW is going to get more wank than ST.
You are aware this makes absolutely no sense, yes?

I mean that without some kind of limitation on Star Wars production or staffing and kind of discussion quickly boils down to

235.4813 ISDs per second.

At that point many people are just going to throw their hands in the air and leave, even though there are calcs supporting the numbers it makes SW look like an exercise in wankery.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-10-02 02:54am

JGregory32 wrote: I mean that without some kind of limitation on Star Wars production or staffing and kind of discussion quickly boils down to
235.4813 ISDs per second.
At that point many people are just going to throw their hands in the air and leave, even though there are calcs supporting the numbers it makes SW look like an exercise in wankery.

You are arguing from gut instinct, and it's not a good way to argue here.

Why does SW absolutely need some kind of limitation? So that you can feel the numbers are "right"? Why don't you provide your own estimate, showing how it's wrong? And take note that it's just an order-of-magnitude estimate. Even if extraneous factors reduce the number of ISDs per second to 23 or 2 or 0.00235, it's still an outrageous industrial capacity. Remember that we are talking about a galactic power here. The scale is simply enormous, and the fact it doesn't "feel" right to you has no bearing on the discussion.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2007-10-02 03:35am

Darth Wong wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I'm not assuming anything. I'm challenging the assumption that you can scale build time linearly with size. There's no reason to think that, so you can't really use the DS2 to estimate how quickly they could build ISD's. It's still useful as a thought exercise to show how much more industrial might the Empire has than the Feds, but not to generate estimates.
Yeah. In real-life, any such estimates would probably be much too low. Huge structures take a very long time to build and require all manner of specialized technology to do so, and you could much more easily build a shitload of small structures that add up to the same floor space.

Well, I suppose there's no particular reason to think that there would be special economies of scale with Imperial quick-fab tech, and tens of thousands of major cap ships per day for a society with millions of industrialized worlds doesn't really stretch credibility, so I'll conceed the point.

ArcturusMengsk · Post by **ArcturusMengsk** » 2007-10-02 05:50am

The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-10-02 05:56am

ArcturusMengsk wrote:The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.

The US has produced some two hundred thousand various tanks and tank destroyers during World War II ; so why didn't they make them in these numbers later?

Because they didn't need them, that's why.

What some people fail to see is that this argument is not supposed to prove how many ISDs the Empire will throw into the war!
It just illustrates the massive industrial disparity between the Federation and the Empire, nothing more.

bz249 · Post by **bz249** » 2007-10-02 05:58am

Sorry what is the problem with the 25K ISD count? Sure it seems pretty low for a galaxy wide entity, however...

- One ISD is vastly enough to lay waste to any planet without shielding and they represents only a fraction of the firepower of the Imperial Navy since they are medium sized ships (IRL two Iowas can deliver more steel to given target then each and every modern day military vessel, excluding nukes of course)
- Hyperspace speeds allows deployments within a day, so there is no need for garrisons, just visit every system regularly (maybe once a year is more than enough for most of the planets)
- The lack of threats: who can challenge the mighty Galactic Empire? Really no one, so there is no need for large military
- It is just the Imperial navy, so there are plenty of ships in planetary roles , though they should be pointless otherwise the ISD concept (larger and stronger than anything a rebellious system might throw in) make no sense

So personally I feel the number may be correct, just the Empire is very-...-very undermilitarized (which is rather rational for an uncontested nation)

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-10-02 08:50am

One ISD is vastly enough to lay waste to any planet without shielding and they represents only a fraction of the firepower of the Imperial Navy since they are medium sized ships

A fair few planets do have shielding, that's the problem. I mean, look at Alderaan. There's also the fact that they appear to be the workhorses of the fleet - you see Star Destroyers all over the place in the original trilogy.

So personally I feel the number may be correct, just the Empire is very-...-very undermilitarized (which is rather rational for an uncontested nation)

The problem is that whilst it may be free from external threats, it isn't free from internal ones. Also, I believe from reading bits and pieces that the Emperor knew of the coming Yuuzhan Vong (meh, or something like that), so it'd make sense for him to be building up a big enough fleet to defeat them soundly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-02 08:55am

ArcturusMengsk wrote:The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.

In order to build a fleet of that size, they would need to recruit crews to man all the ships. Even at the Empire's peak, they appeared to have an all-volunteer army and navy. The Republic seemed to pride itself on not having any standing army at all, and that's the cultural tradition the Empire was working with. Yes, they were quite under-militarized compared to what we would think of as a militarized nation today.

lord Martiya · Post by **lord Martiya** » 2007-10-02 09:03am

The number of 25000 could be simply the OFFICIAL one, or referred only to sector fleets, with sovrasectors, some important worlds and other fleets with additional ISDs and other support ships. One known example of similar fleets is the Azure Hammer Command, a fleet charged for quick response to attack against Sector Zero.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2007-10-02 09:36am

ArcturusMengsk wrote:The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.

the WEG 25k Imperial class number is contradicted by the WEG order of battle which has far more. Thus you can interperate it as:

(A) 25,000 Imperial class in the Navy (those space forces directly controlled by the Imperial State) with far more in the Starfleet (those space forces controlled by the sectors that could be called up by the Imperial State)

(B) They built 25,000 Imperial class, but had an ungodly number of Tectors, Venators, Victorys, and other destroyers, with the Imperial class just being seen so often because it's well rounded nature made it ideal for stamping out flashpoints.

DarthShady · Post by **DarthShady** » 2007-10-02 09:44am

The fact is The Empire had no opposition,so they had no reason to build so many ships.The Rebels were weak and were being hunted down by Vader and everyone else was scared shit less of the Emperor.
But the fact remains that the Empires industrial capability is amazing,but considering that the Empire spans across an entire galaxy, thats not much of a surprise.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-10-02 10:32am

The volumetric analysis of the Death Star is a measure of the Empire's ability to ship raw material to a given site and turn it into a finished product in a set period of time. If it can do that for a Death Star, you can be damned sure it can do it for an ISD. As far as supplying goes, the logistics chain will be more complicated than for the Death Star, but at the same time they should scale down equivalently -- that is, the Death Star required 3,7 billion ISDs' worth of fuel, etc, since the reactor densities are pretty much the same. Supplying food can be accomplished with droid crews if necessary, and if worse comes to worst, the Empire can requisition the merchant fleet, which it has done in the past: there was enough spare shipping capacity to completely empty the oceans of Gholendrein-B, a monumental task.

In the end, the Death Star does provide an accurate benchmark of Imperial industrial capability.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-10-02 11:50am

General Schatten wrote:of course they'll bring up the 25k ISD-II's from the Imperial Sourcebook forgetting that that's in peacetime and that there's no threat that would require the Empire to field that many ships.

ArcturusMengsk wrote:The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.

I'm just gonna say I told you so.

Jericho Kross · Post by **Jericho Kross** » 2007-10-02 12:05pm

Will the EU ever be fixed?

Aratech · Post by **Aratech** » 2007-10-02 12:10pm

Jericho Kross wrote: Will the EU ever be fixed?

The major problem with the EU is that most fantasy/sci-fi writers are limited to their experiences here on Earth. The conceptual numbers that a Galaxy spanning civilization woudl be capable of is just a tad over the top as far as they're concerned.

Which is a shame, as you get otherwise good writers messing up the continuity by thinking "that's way to high, I'd better tone it down a bit or they'll never believe me!"

For this example, see claims such as Coruscant's population being a mere trillion (as we can clearly see that its at least an order of magnitude beyond that in the movies) and that the Clones are only 3,000,000 strong (though I present this to miss Traviss: which sounds more wanky, a government that is capable of cranking out trillions-quintillions of cloned soldiers, or that each soldier is so bloody Rambo-ish that he can wade into battle outnumbered 100,000 to one, and emerge victorious!)

Jericho Kross · Post by **Jericho Kross** » 2007-10-02 12:37pm

We can still hope the EU may be rectified. I hate having to point out that there is alot more than a few million clone toopers involved in the Clone Wars.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » 2007-10-02 03:33pm

They see Darth Vader and every other sith ever known being taken out with hand weapons, Star Wars ships being hijacked, and Stormtroopers who can't shoot worth a shit. They want you to think that the blaster rifles are also a weak weapon and that the door on the ship in the beginning of a ANH was done with explosives. They want the EU stuff like the Sun Crusher made not legitimate for use by the Empire and the Death Star superlaser reduced to a mere faith weapon of miracles. That's what they think the Alderaan destruction was, a mere miracle and a one in a billion chance. They will see it as being loaded with TNT and the superlaser as a peashooter. In other words, if they can twist it one way then they can twist it until it's dead and still more. They will tell you the asteroids in the asteroid field were vaporized because they are made of weak rocks and small pebbles in space. They will think that they are the rocks they smoke everytime they go into this debate.

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2007-10-02 05:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:
ArcturusMengsk wrote:The Empire can construct millions of Imperator-class Star Destroyers in a very short timeframe, no doubt of it. However, it begs the question - why have they constructed so very few of them canonically? Assuming that three billion vessels of a Star Destroyer's mass represents their max constructional capacity, they've constructed less than one hundred thousandths of that number.

I'm not questioning their ability to do so, but rather why they haven't. Even a million Star Destroyers would be a triviality to the Galactic Empire.
In order to build a fleet of that size, they would need to recruit crews to man all the ships. Even at the Empire's peak, they appeared to have an all-volunteer army and navy. The Republic seemed to pride itself on not having any standing army at all, and that's the cultural tradition the Empire was working with. Yes, they were quite under-militarized compared to what we would think of as a militarized nation today.

A bigger problem that just crewing the ships would be training those crews. Prehaps the reason that Imperial training was so harsh was because they had re-invented it from first principles, discover new ways to break down the individual and fit him into the unit. And then you need to teach thousands of people per Star Destroyer the detailed technical skills they need to preform their jobs. And you need officers, and NCOs, and the military is expanding wildy beyond even the Clone wars heights, and both are in short supply. It seems like a safe bet that despite the Clone Troopers continued presence, the Empire still had manpower shortages, just in getting them into service.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2007-10-02 09:15pm

I actually don't think they had man power shortages, we know that if need be they can turn the entirety of the Stormtrooper Corps into a completely clone unit, yet clones only make up a 2/5ths of the Corps, once again probably because the Empire is the premier power in the Galaxy and has larger ships and more of them.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-10-02 10:19pm

General Schatten wrote:I actually don't think they had man power shortages, we know that if need be they can turn the entirety of the Stormtrooper Corps into a completely clone unit, yet clones only make up a 2/5ths of the Corps, once again probably because the Empire is the premier power in the Galaxy and has larger ships and more of them.

That depends on how many planets they have churning out clones, particularly those of the highly skilled starship crew variety (especially since the naval officer corps appears to be entirely composed of volunteers recruited from the human portion of a civilization that has not had a standing army for thousands of years). The fact that they have vast starship construction capabilities does not necessarily mean they have correspondingly vast manpower resources. Not unless they mobilize for total war: something they never really did even during the Clone Wars, judging by their failure to even consider the option of conscription.

Qwerty 42 · Post by **Qwerty 42** » 2007-10-02 11:45pm

It also becomes immensely impractical for any government to maintain a military outside of its need, since you are then pouring huge expenditures into ship construction, crew salary and benefits, with no return.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2007-10-03 12:08am

DarthShady wrote:The fact is The Empire had no opposition,so they had no reason to build so many ships.The Rebels were weak and were being hunted down by Vader and everyone else was scared shit less of the Emperor.
But the fact remains that the Empires industrial capability is amazing,but considering that the Empire spans across an entire galaxy, thats not much of a surprise.

Actually, no. There were hints that the Emperor might have known of the Yuuzhan Vong threat. I forgot where that was mentioned though.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-10-03 12:14am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
DarthShady wrote:The fact is The Empire had no opposition,so they had no reason to build so many ships.The Rebels were weak and were being hunted down by Vader and everyone else was scared shit less of the Emperor.
But the fact remains that the Empires industrial capability is amazing,but considering that the Empire spans across an entire galaxy, thats not much of a surprise.
Actually, no. There were hints that the Emperor might have known of the Yuuzhan Vong threat. I forgot where that was mentioned though.

Nom Anor makes mention of it many many times. Basically the reason he was glad for the NR coming into being was that they were weaker and did not have as great a military.