Best SF movie ever: Serenity!

[Plekhanov]

For me whilst Firefly is one of the best Sci-Fi series ever Serenity isn’t even close to being the best film, it’s not as good as the series and I don’t think I’d have liked it half as much if I hadn’t already seen the series.

Star Wars: ep IV-VI, Laputa, Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, Blade Runner, Forbidden Planet, Alien & Aliens, Children of Men, Terminator to name just a few are all a cut or three above Serenity.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Did you see Serenity before or after you saw the series? If it was after it's hardly fair to compare your attachment to characters you'd go to know over numerous episodes of Firefly to those introduced in Star Wars: A New Hope.

I dont see why not. I was only introduced to Han Solo in A New Hope and i was upset, when i saw Empire, when he seemed to be "killed" (i know, he was alive when he was frozen, i simply figured that Fett's employers would kill him). Having never seen the SW movies at that time, i didnt know he would be brought back and was genuinely saddened to see him "go". A sign of good writing, IMO, is that a person makes an almost instant connection to the character. If i need to see three movies or a whole TV series to care about someone, then something has gone wrong in the characterization phase.

Also you may have noticed that Padme & Quai-Gon weren't in A New Hope.

Of course but they were in the prequel trilogy. I felt more for Anakin to be honest, not because i knew him as Darth Vader (to be honest, Vader was mostly a kind of faceless "Big Bad" in the OT) but because i connected with the character. I was picking up major sociopath tones from the guy and i found that to be quite interesting. I also, in the short part of the film he was in, connected with Jango Fett and i wanted to see him survive at least another movie and i regretted him being killed; he seemed to genuinely care about his kid, which coming from my background, struck me as an important character point.

Point is, you shouldnt need to see hours of a TV show or movie to like a character, it should be innate, part of their characterization. At least thats how i feel. It shouldnt take a whole lot of effort to make a character's personality and value, if any, shine through. Unless it's a poorly written one, then you have to go all ham fisted on it.

And i say it again...i dont think Serenity is the "best" scifi film ever. To answer that purely subjective question, my purely subjective choice would have been Terminator 2, my first introduction to Ah-Nuld's legendary character and R-movies.

[Plekhanov]

I dont see why not. I was only introduced to Han Solo in A New Hope and i was upset, when i saw Empire, when he seemed to be "killed" (i know, he was alive when he was frozen, i simply figured that Fett's employers would kill him). Having never seen the SW movies at that time, i didnt know he would be brought back and was genuinely saddened to see him "go". A sign of good writing, IMO, is that a person makes an almost instant connection to the character. If i need to see three movies or a whole TV series to care about someone, then something has gone wrong in the characterization phase.

Are you aware that you have just completely contradicted your earlier post in which you claimed you didn't care about the characters in Star Wars?

Why are you talking about the SW series as opposed to Ep 4 anyway? The poll was for best 'movie' not franchise.

Of course but they were in the prequel trilogy.

Yes but they weren't in A New Hope which is the film Serenity is being compared to.

Point is, you shouldnt need to see hours of a TV show or movie to like a character, it should be innate, part of their characterization. At least thats how i feel. It shouldnt take a whole lot of effort to make a character's personality and value, if any, shine through.

And in A New Hope it doesn't, from the moment I first saw the film I was capitvated by it, in contrast I'm pretty sure that if I'd hadn't seen the series first I wouldn't have thought much of Serenity or been particularly attached to any of the characters.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Are you aware that you have just completely contradicted your earlier post in which you claimed you didn't care about the characters in Star Wars?

No i didnt. I didnt say that ALL of the characters were like that, or at least i didnt intend to. If i made you think that, it was a poor choice of words on my part. But i did specify...

most of his characters either fall flat or are too cool to realistically hang out with the other people.

Most, not all. I did find a genuine immediate connection with some, those i mentioned as well as other 'one off' characters.

Why are you talking about the SW series as opposed to Ep 4 anyway? The poll was for best 'movie' not franchise.

The connection i felt with Han, obviously, started in Episode 4 so i thought it would make sense to mention it. Also i always considered Star Wars, for me, to be one big kind of epic. It's not like most movie in a fanchise, like Trek for example, which have 'sequels' in fact it's more like, literally, episodes. But if that doesnt count then i guess my statement about Han, which WAS formed purely on his Ep. 4 appearance, still stands.

Yes but they weren't in A New Hope which is the film Serenity is being compared to.

Is it? It seemed by the way people were using the terminology that they were referring to Star Wars as a whole. And at any rate, if we're talking about the films as being self contained it still doesnt help Star Wars at all...you MUST have seen A New Hope to understand what is happening in Empire, and you MUST have seen (at least been aware of) the first PT movie to understand ROTS for example. Which is not to say SW isnt great, it is, it's fucking epic and always has been. But treating the movies as purely self contained saps much of the massive, sprawling presence the films have.

And in A New Hope it doesn't, from the moment I first saw the film I was capitvated by it, in contrast I'm pretty sure that if I'd hadn't seen the series first I wouldn't have thought much of Serenity or been particularly attached to any of the characters.

I was never "in" to SW because of the characters alone, but the universe itself, personally i found it interesting. It was like...lasers and wizards and laser swords and shit and i was twelve so it sucked me in like a black hole.

But you hit upon a point here i was trying to make earlier...much of what makes a character, or movie, good or not is purely subjective. I'm sure many, many people fell exactly the opposite is true. There is no way to genuinely have a purely objective answer for a question that is as purely subjective as "what is the 'best' scifi movie ever!" it's a retarded question because if you ask twenty people you'll likely get maybe six or seven identical answers based, most likely, on popularity or box office draw or both. And films that have a great deal of influence but arent well known may be completly overlooked. The whole question begs to draw forth innumerable style of over substance arguments, this whole discussion is one to be frank. What makes good characterization for you is probably completely different than for me.

More so, to bring up another point i tried to mention earlier, again i dont think anyone has put forth any evidence that the so-called Browncoats have actually "cheated" here or that they even that a "poll" such as this has any rules or mechanism which one can actually cheat at. For all you know the people asked may have GENUINELY thought Serenity was better...it IS purely subjective question with no right or wrong answer, yet we're treating it like it's some definite question with a right and wrong answer like "what is 2 times 2?" or something. I'm not even sure ther IS a way to "cheat" at what is in effect a popularity contest.

[18-Till-I-Die]

And i want to make my original point clear just so that everone doesnt leap down my throat...

I'm not a Browncoat, i dont even know where these people hang out. I'm not soem rabid Joss Whedon fan or anything. I thought that the movie was pretty kick ass but not the best ever.

That, however, is just my opinion. There is the possibility, quite probable in fact, that many other people may genuinely believe it IS the best movie ever.

I dont believe "T3h 3v!ll Browncoats! RAR!" got together and planned some huge sprawling conspiracy or anything. I think that's asinine. Yeah they probably have a tight fan community but, i mean, so does practically EVERY scifi or TV or movie franchise that isnt completely lame. Some that ARE have a tight fan community, there are Ed Wood fans for example and everything he ever made was stupendously lame.

[VF5SS]

there are Ed Wood fans for example and everything he ever made was stupendously lame.

Most Ed Wood fans generally aren't infatuated with his works in to the point of such blatant internet and media posturing.

[18-Till-I-Die]

there are Ed Wood fans for example and everything he ever made was stupendously lame.

Most Ed Wood fans generally aren't infatuated with his works in to the point of such blatant internet and media posturing.

My point is not that Ed Wood fans are very vocal. It was that virtually every movie, TV show or franchise that has ever been produced created some kind of following if it is known to exist at all. I can only think of a few that dont, which arent so obscure no one knows they exist.

So the idea that Browncoats are some bizarre cabal of Firefly worshiping losers is, to me, unfounded. They are no worse, nor are they any nobler, than Trekkies or Warsies or Fivers or any other fanbase. The fact is, it seems to me, that some other fandoms are so consumed by inernecine conflicts and loss of prestige because of their franchise weaking that they just are sour they cant organize well.

To say nothing of the fact that i still contest you cant "cheat" at what is in effect a subjective popularity contest nor is there any evidence, in the article, to suggest the INSTANT accusation that these people were someone "rigging" the "competition". Or whatever.

I mean it's a fucking magazine poll not some scientific expedition, is it so hard to believe that Serenity may have genuinely won? That some people may have been actually impressed by it, fans of teh show or not? It's not like we're talking about Manos Hands of Fate, it's not some horrifying, spectacularly crappy movie...it COULD have "won" legitimately.

[VF5SS]

It's not like we're talking about Manos Hands of Fate, it's not some horrifying, spectacularly crappy movie...it COULD have "won" legitimately.

Hey now, it's "Manos" The Hands of Fate. Don't forget the quotation marks.

As for Serenity... It went up against Star Wars. Freaking Star Wars. Maybe I could see Serenity over the Fifth Element or a Star Trek movie but not Star Wars. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Stormbringer]

It's not like we're talking about Manos Hands of Fate, it's not some horrifying, spectacularly crappy movie...it COULD have "won" legitimately.

Hey now, it's "Manos" The Hands of Fate. Don't forget the quotation marks.

As for Serenity... It went up against Star Wars. Freaking Star Wars. Maybe I could see Serenity over the Fifth Element or a Star Trek movie but not Star Wars. It just doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, because current fans couldn't possibly be influenced by a string of sequels that failed to live up to expectations, a shitty over-worked franchise machine, and the fading luster of the movies going on three decades old. For a generation of science fiction fans that is Star Wars, there is a definitely a lost luster to people that became fans before the prequels, EU, and utterly ubiquitous marketing. Star Wars is a good movie but I can easily see why people would no longer rate it as highly as it once may have.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I remember once, in the midst of the Serenity fervor of the summer of 2005, some Browncoat couple posted a link on the official movie site to ask for help, because they were trying to win some contest where people would vote for who gets a new house. Every person in the contest was trying to get online votes, and the Browncoats created a total landslide for the person who asked.

Heck, once Nathan Fillion himself posted on the board about the bad treatment a comic-book store owner gave him, and after a day he had to call them off because they'd crashed his website with emails and filled his phone with messages.

We're a vocal, organized bunch. Rather odd for 'independents' I think. Of course, Serenity wouldn't exist if we WEREN'T a vocal, organized bunch.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Serenity only exists because of the DVD sales for Firefly, plain and simple.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ghetto Edit: Basically, it's no good to puff up your egos when it isn't really justified to do so.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ghetto Edit: Basically, it's no good to puff up your egos when it isn't really justified to do so.

Why isnt it "justified"?

Firstly it's not like the show imploded and was canceled because it couldnt even get a moderate number of viewers like some recent scifi shows (Star Trek) it was cancelled because, truthfully, it never caught on and because Fox didnt do much to promote it.

Secondly why on Earth should the fans of Firefly be the only group not alowed to organize. They arent the mob. You know, if Star Wars fans and Trekkies and Fivers got together in any meaningful way they could try to swing votes too. God forbid that another fan community not be so fucking lame and disorganized that it manages to actually communicate like...oh i dont know, a community?

Thirdly...and i bring this up AGAIN...it was a magazine poll. A MAGAZINE POLL. Ok, this isnt science here this is a fucking popularity contest. How on Earth is it SO shocking that Serenity won that we instantly assume (and you know what happens when you assume) that the damn, dirty Browncoats cheated or something. It's like people find it utterly breathtaking that somehow, someway THEIR favorite scifi film lost. You know what I think rubs everyone the wrong way, is that Star Wars (the article as quoted doesnt specify which BTW) came in second. Boo hoo.

[Dalton]

Ghetto Edit: Basically, it's no good to puff up your egos when it isn't really justified to do so.

Why isnt it "justified"?

Because I doubt that fan outcry did very much in getting the movie produced. Studios sometimes take huge risks making films, so sometimes they need convincing. The high number of sales on Firefly DVDs absolutely helped push the movie through, more so than any organized fan effort.

That's not to say that fan pressure reviving a project is unprecedented, however. Farscape proved that one.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yeah i definitely agree that it was the DVD sales that made the movie, that and Whedon got lucky and found someone to produce it who liked his work i would suspect. But i think Spanky means (or this is how i read it, these 'one-like' responses are fairly unclear) is thet they shouldnt try to organize and promote their series so much and so openly because they dont deserve to for some reason.

Again i may be misunderstanding it, as one-like responses tend to be somewhat hard to interpret. But a lot of the "outcry" in this thread just strikes me as a kind of scifi snobbery, first we haggle over what is "real" scifi and what is "fake" scifi, then the assumption (sans evidence) that Serenity could NEVER beat out a Star Wars movie (which one is unspecified) and the utter shock and disbelief that it was even possible without presenting evidence that the poll (a magazine poll, effectively a popularity contest) was somehow "rigged" or something. I mean i'm a fan of both Firefly and SW in equal measure, and yet i didnt INSTANTLY assume that somehow T3h 3V!LL Browncoats!! RAR!!! had somehow "rigged" the "competition", such as it is.

[GuppyShark]

then the assumption (sans evidence) that Serenity could NEVER beat out a Star Wars movie (which one is unspecified) and the utter shock and disbelief that it was even possible without presenting evidence that the poll (a magazine poll, effectively a popularity contest) was somehow "rigged" or something. I mean i'm a fan of both Firefly and SW in equal measure, and yet i didnt INSTANTLY assume that somehow T3h 3V!LL Browncoats!! RAR!!! had somehow "rigged" the "competition", such as it is.

They've got a track record of doing exactly this, and they're not exactly shy about it. See CaptainChewbacca's comments above.

[18-Till-I-Die]

then the assumption (sans evidence) that Serenity could NEVER beat out a Star Wars movie (which one is unspecified) and the utter shock and disbelief that it was even possible without presenting evidence that the poll (a magazine poll, effectively a popularity contest) was somehow "rigged" or something. I mean i'm a fan of both Firefly and SW in equal measure, and yet i didnt INSTANTLY assume that somehow T3h 3V!LL Browncoats!! RAR!!! had somehow "rigged" the "competition", such as it is.

They've got a track record of doing exactly this, and they're not exactly shy about it. See CaptainChewbacca's comments above.

So? Again where is the proof? Does anyone know if it is even POSSIBLE to "cheat" such a poll?

It says it was a survey so it may have even been random for God's sake. No one has any idea of what the circumstances were here. No one has even presented evidence to show that any 'cheating" happened it's merely assumed, taken on faith as it were, that this is what went down.

More so i still contest that it is imposisble to "cheat" a fucking magazine poll. Some scifi fans need to stop whining that their fandom sucks and cant organize, if they really invest so much interest in this shit. Otherwise prove that something actually happened. Find out how the poll was conducted, show evidence, but donet give me "Well OBVIOUSLY they did it!!" like i'm supposed to give a fuck that they "did this in the past".

WHat does that even fucking mean anyway? That they dont roll over and suck the dick of Trekkies or Warsies or Fivers or any other "big time" fandom so they're eeevil or something? That they actually have the temerity to speak openly and organize themselves like a real community nstead of being consumed by internecine warfare and imploding like some fandoms? Fuck that shit. Just from the sour grapes crap i've seen in this thread i can easily see why Browncoats--despite that lame ass name--would feel the need to organize with one another. Because God forbid that they should actually seek out and communicate with fellows fans.

[GuppyShark]

I thought, "Hey, 18 is pretty worked about this, I'll have a snoop around and see what I can find."

Well, I wasn't surprised in the least.

A Firefly voting thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=27548

"Catching up again but still need some work."

Whedonesque: http://whedonesque.com/comments/12882

"I'm not too thrilled seeing "The Browncoats hijacked the poll, it's not valid" comments all over the place.

Especially since it's true and we, therefore, have no defence."

Comments at SFX:
http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=lor ... _fireflies

"I checked on the results over several weeks and Star Wars was consistently ahead, whilst Serenity was alongside the likes of Blade Runner, then suddenly from nowhere there is an explosion of Serenity votes making it a massive winner."

"Just checked the BBC news site and I'm pleased to see they've stuck in their own poll, which is showing far more sensible results before any Serenity mobbing - Star Wars first by a long way and Blade Runner second. Serenity is third at present. Once the community is roused like a many-headed Hydra no doubt this will change, but at the moment people without agendas are getting a fair say.

Mass, organised efforts to disrupt polls prevent them from obtaining accurate data. SFX's poll was for people who normally go to SFX, but when you add a whole horde of people who are only going there for the purpose of voting in the poll, you get an unrepresentative sample.

Do you really think "an Earth-shattering 61%" of their normal traffic was Browncoats? Two thirds Whedon fans and a third split between every other fandom?

[Darth Fanboy]

I get it browncoats, its a film that keeps your OK series alive but guess what? How many people will be talking about this movie 10 years from now? How many people are trading Serenity lines or sayings in the general public?

The fanaticism of these fans make me dislike the series more than it deserves and that's a shame.

Stravo, you put up a new Starcrossed AND share my sentiments regarding Firefly. Freakin' awesome.

What bugs me the most is how Firefly fans constantly accuse FOX network of screwing the series over, when in fact the series itself just didn't have the appeal to the public at large that it did to the small number of rabid fans.

[General Zod]

I get it browncoats, its a film that keeps your OK series alive but guess what? How many people will be talking about this movie 10 years from now? How many people are trading Serenity lines or sayings in the general public?

The fanaticism of these fans make me dislike the series more than it deserves and that's a shame.

Stravo, you put up a new Starcrossed AND share my sentiments regarding Firefly. Freakin' awesome.

What bugs me the most is how Firefly fans constantly accuse FOX network of screwing the series over, when in fact the series itself just didn't have the appeal to the public at large that it did to the small number of rabid fans.

That's pretty much my sentiment on Firefly. I saw the first episode and Serenity, (Serenity first), and after watching the first ep, I was like "Wait, that's it? It's just cowboys in space. . ." I don't really see what all the fuss is over that series myself.

[Xess]

I love Firefly and Serenity, but I like Star Wars and other movies just as much if not more. I just can't understand why anyone would want to super-inflate a poll to make their pet series look better. It's just a poll, who gives a fuck? It's not like it'll mean anything.