Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

No, what is a problem is that a jack-hole who's admitted drug habits would get him a Big Chicken Dinner is whining about what is and isn't institutionally moral.

Apparently I've just discovered how you think. Someone whose behavior is considered 'immoral' (the stupid definition that boils down to 'I don't like it because I was raised to hate it', not the 'it causes measurable harm to other people' one) shouldn't have the right to free speech if it makes you uncomfortable. And I thought I smelled the stench of wingnut on you..

[FSTargetDrone]

If nothing else, it's news in the sense that a general who is Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is basically equating homosexuals with adulterers. This from someone who while weeping, went on at length describing the struggles endured and importance of immigrants (like gays, another marginalized group) to the military and the country as a whole.

Pace just doesn't seem to like gays. He doesn't seem to like the idea of gays and apparently wishes it would all just go away.

[Lonestar]

Apparently I've just discovered how you think. Someone whose behavior is considered 'immoral' (the stupid definition that boils down to 'I don't like it because I was raised to hate it', not the 'it causes measurable harm to other people' one) shouldn't have the right to free speech if it makes you uncomfortable. And I thought I smelled the stench of wingnut on you..

Holy shit Lonestar is a homophobe. Or it could be that he has no respect for people who have, in the past, bitched and moaned when their employer had the audacity to mandate drug tests.

Don't you have a big pointless thread about sexual molestation with seizure-inducing colors to create or something?

[Big Phil]

No, what is a problem is that a jack-hole who's admitted drug habits would get him a Big Chicken Dinner is whining about what is and isn't institutionally moral.

Apparently I've just discovered how you think. Someone whose behavior is considered 'immoral' (the stupid definition that boils down to 'I don't like it because I was raised to hate it', not the 'it causes measurable harm to other people' one) shouldn't have the right to free speech if it makes you uncomfortable. And I thought I smelled the stench of wingnut on you..

Calling Lonestar a homophobe (what you're intimating) doesn't strengthen your position, and he hasn't been saying you need to keep your mouth shut, in any case.

Lonestar's been saying (as I read it) that what some asshole general says about homosexuality doesn't really matter and doesn't affect day-to-day treatment of gays in the armed forces, and you're saying it does. Junior officers and NCO's don't hear him saying homosexuality is immoral and immediately start persecuting gays and discharging them. They are able to think for themselves too, you know...

[Lord Zentei]

What the fuck do I care about him? I was in the Navy, you think I give two shits about a Marine General?

You know, that's not really what the thread is about.

His comments are worthy of scorn, it really doesn't matter whether he is in the same service as you were, since you seemed to be apologising for him. But if you are disclaiming association, well and good.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Holy shit Lonestar is a homophobe. Or it could be that he has no respect for people who have, in the past, bitched and moaned when their employer had the audacity to mandate drug tests.

You sure have this thing for attacking the messenger with this specious 'zomg he uses drugs!1!11' red herring attempt at poisoning the well.

I have no respect for someone who tries to minimize or defend hate speech as if it's nothing doing, especially if they're using bad logic to do so.

Don't you have a big pointless thread about sexual molestation with seizure-inducing colors to create or something?

Nope. Sucks to be you, then.

[Coyote]

Content Oppressed - SirNitram

Truth is, think of the law of averages. You probably already know and work with someone who is gay in the military and don't even realize it. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't come up in the Mess yet, really. What are you gonna do then? Tak back some of that smack talk?

Fuck, it's getting annoying.

[SirNitram]

Wow, this thread is a flat out embarassment to the site. A major figure comes out to gay bash a bit, there's a thread like usual, and... Everyone's trying to defend it. 'He doesn't make policy!', 'The lower ranks would be the ones who did anything!' are at least grounded in fact, despite the fact the guy is still pond fucking scum. But we actually have someone going 'Well, you shouldn't talk, you stupid drugged hippie'.

Do I need to cleanse this with fucking napalm? Or are you all going to behave yourselves?

[consequences]

Lonestar's been saying (as I read it) that what some asshole general says about homosexuality doesn't really matter and doesn't affect day-to-day treatment of gays in the armed forces, and you're saying it does. Junior officers and NCO's don't hear him saying homosexuality is immoral and immediately start persecuting gays and discharging them. They are able to think for themselves too, you know...

It is debatable whether or not whether their words and actions can be said to represent thought, as opposed to ingrained unthinking prejudice that will latch onto the thinnest possible rationalisation to encourage further similar behavior.

You can quote all of the statistics, studies, and documented evidence you like at the fucking throwbacks you find all too often in the military, and it won't make a dent in their 'duh that gay shit is just wrong, cuz jesus said so' wall of ignorance. Sadly, the same applies to low-paying blue-collar jobs as well, I've been trying to wear away at the offensive homophobia of a coworker who's an otherwise decent human being for months without any real effect.

[Turin]

Add to this the poll mentioned above about morale apparently not being affected by the presence of gays, and the whole argument against having openly gay soldiers serving vanishes.

The poll mentioned by... me! So quit quoting me before that like you're just demolished my argument when in fact I pulled back on the strongest point of my own volition.

Oops, sorry... for some reason I mentally assigned that post to FSTargetDrone because he expanded on your point. However, as long as your defending your original statement for some reason...

That being said, well DUH the word substitution works as-is. It's just that for most of this new century gays have still been a hate-able group and thus the cohesion argument might well still have stood. If that's changing then good, it'll still be a fight but not as uphill, it's nearly an even playing ground now.

I think I didn't make it clear what my point was there -- that "cohesion" is a bullshit argument in the first place for the same reason it was bullshit when the armed forces first when through the process of racially integrating (an interesting chronology of which can be found here by the way). As for "nearly even," I really don't think you can call it "nearly even" as long as you have people still being discharged for it. As much as I don't want to step into the bullshit argument Lonestar is making, this guy may "just" be one general... but if he made a similar statement about blacks, there'd be a hell of a lot bigger shitstorm coming down around his ears for it.

The only problem I can imagine with that poll is that acceptance of homosexuals is probably highly visibly along age boundaries, so there may be remnant institutionalized biases against gay service members for years. (yes, that is an opinion)

Without access to the Zogby poll numbers I'm not sure we can say for certain, although I imagine a majority of military folks are young-ish anyway. But I can just throw up the same argument I'm making about racial minorities here as well... there's plenty of institutionalized racism in American society as a whole, and I'm certain that it can be found in the military as well. That doesn't mean we should just say "oh well," right?

I realize you're not specifically making this argument, but it seems to me like your apologizing for the current state of affairs.

[FSTargetDrone]

Oops, sorry... for some reason I mentally assigned that post to FSTargetDrone because he expanded on your point.

What did you say about my mother??

Without access to the Zogby poll numbers I'm not sure we can say for certain, although I imagine a majority of military folks are young-ish anyway.

Here is the poll in question, from December 2006. There is also a detailed PDFs there expanding on the poll information (left side, about halfway down).

And the methodology statement of that poll (from the PDF itself):

I. Methodology and Sample Characteristics

Methodology

Zogby International conducted online interviews of 545 U.S. Military Personnel who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan (or in combat support roles directly supporting those operations), from a purchased list of U.S. Military Personnel. The online poll ran from 10/24/06 through 10/26/06. The margin of error is +/- 4.3 percentage points. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups. Slight weights were added to age and race to
more accurately reflect the population. Data used in weighting was obtained from official Department of Defense (DOD) resources.

The panel used for this survey is composed of over 1 million members and correlates closely with the U.S. population on all key profiles. The panel uses a double opt-in format through an invitation only method. Panelists are sourced through a variety of commercial enterprises and all recruitment methodologies fully comply with CASRO guidelines. Each panelist is defined by over 400 variables, therefore making the panel
highly segmented and fully representative of the US and military population.


Sample Characteristics Frequency Valid Percent*

Sample size 545 100
East 69 13
South 223 43
Central/Great Lakes 101 20
West 123 24
Did not answer state 29 --
Veteran 88 16
Active 353 65
Reserve/Guard, mobilized 35 6
Reserve/Guard, non-mobilized 69 13
Air Force 160 29
Army 251 46
Marines 35 7
Navy 92 17
Coast Guard 5 1
18-29 296 55
30-49 221 41
50-64 22 4
Did not answer age 6 --
White 375 73
Black/African American 62 12
Spanish/Hispanic/Latino 47 9
American Indian/Alaska Native 5 1
Asian 13 3
Hawaiian/Pacific Islander 5 1
Other/Mixed 10 2
Did not answer race 28 --
Baptist 85 17
Church of Christ 22 4
Episcopal 6 1

Ages are bolded yellow, followed by the numbers for "Frequency" and "Valid Percent." I apologize for the sloppiness of the poll table. I don't know how to clean it up so it is properly aligned in columns, but you can see it in the PDF.

[Aaron]

Content Oppressed - SirNitram

[Big Orange]

Just like it wasn't news all across the South that black people used to get lynched if they found themselves out in town after sunset after the Civil War.

You're a fucking piece of shit, you know that? You want this swept under the rug to fester; I want it cleaned up in the one way that's fair and just. May you unsuccessfully catch a freight train with your face, cheesedick. You certainly deserve it.

Whoah, where did that come from?!! I never said that I support or agree with the homophobia or homophobic opinions of high ranking US generals, it seems just as unsurprising as alcoholic Mel Gibson slurring about how bad Jews supposedly are.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

No, what is a problem is that a jack-hole who's admitted drug habits would get him a Big Chicken Dinner is whining about what is and isn't institutionally moral.

Holy shit Lonestar is a homophobe. Or it could be that he has no respect for people who have, in the past, bitched and moaned when their employer had the audacity to mandate drug tests.

Don't you have a big pointless thread about sexual molestation with seizure-inducing colors to create or something?

Um, would you care to actually address his points rather than making make repeat ad-hominum attacks? It doesn't fucking matter if Einy's a serial killer, his points stand on their own merits and by attacking him, rather than them, you're just making yourself appear a world class ass.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Just like it wasn't news all across the South that black people used to get lynched if they found themselves out in town after sunset after the Civil War.

You're a fucking piece of shit, you know that? You want this swept under the rug to fester; I want it cleaned up in the one way that's fair and just. May you unsuccessfully catch a freight train with your face, cheesedick. You certainly deserve it.

Whoah, where did that come from?!! I never said that I support or agree with the homophobia or homophobic opinions of high ranking US generals, it seems just as unsurprising as alcoholic Mel Gibson slurring about how bad Jews supposedly are.

You said this was 'Not News', then you say it's on the same level as Mad Mel's antisemitic rants that made the news the world over? Which is it, hatfucker? You certainly seem like you don't want this to get people's attention for some reason. I wonder why?

The point is a high-ranking official, to put it bluntly, said that being gay is wrong. There's no defense for that.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

No, what is a problem is that a jack-hole who's admitted drug habits would get him a Big Chicken Dinner is whining about what is and isn't institutionally moral.

Holy shit Lonestar is a homophobe. Or it could be that he has no respect for people who have, in the past, bitched and moaned when their employer had the audacity to mandate drug tests.

Don't you have a big pointless thread about sexual molestation with seizure-inducing colors to create or something?

Um, would you care to actually address his points rather than making make repeat ad-hominum attacks? It doesn't fucking matter if Einy's a serial killer, his points stand on their own merits and by attacking him, rather than them, you're just making yourself appear a world class ass.

Thanks Damien. At this point, I don't give a flying fucking rat's petard what Lonestar thinks or says about anything anymore. He's chosen his side in this, now he deals with the consequences. I'm done with Lonestar, and I'm sick of his repeatedly shooting himself in the foot for this General Pace guy.

So, who's sticking a fork in this turkey?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Hell, ghetto edit so that I can actually add something of substance to the thread...

Who is the fucking arbiter of what's 'newsworthy' and 'unnewsworthy'? Why is a very high ranking officer claiming that a good portion of the people serving under him are immoral scum, knowingly in a highly publicized setting, then cowardly trying to cover his ass by claiming they were just 'personal moral views' not newsworthy, while a vacuous claim that Al Gore's mansion uses more energy than a typical three bedroom house *is* newsworthy?

It appeared in the fucking news, and it wasn't immediately clamped down upon by mods, thus I think it's safe to assume that for the purposes of this board, this story is newsworthy. And why shouldn't a homophobic arse be outed publicly when a significant percentage of the people who serve under him are in fact gay and are influenced by his decisions? Especially when he's so shit-faced cowardly that he'll make a fucking press-release denigrating said gays, then try to claim that he's completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just expressing 'personal moral views'.

Yeah, just expressing personal moral views, by complete random chance, in front of cameras and journalists who will disseminate those views throughout the nation. That's fucking believable.

[Wicked Pilot]

I'll officially upgrade my opinion on the newsworthiness of this whole thing seeing how much of a shitstorm it's garnered. Goddamn, why can't some people just learn to drink their shut the hell up juice before going into work in the morning?


Only a year and a half left.

[SirNitram]

I'll officially upgrade my opinion on the newsworthiness of this whole thing seeing how much of a shitstorm it's garnered. Goddamn, why can't some people just learn to drink their shut the hell up juice before going into work in the morning?


Only a year and a half left.

It'll be more than a year and a half before we see the end of anyone who can get the media to propagate his bigotry. We're reaching a point where things will come to a head: The damn queers aren't keeping in the damn closests anymore!

[Wicked Pilot]

It'll be more than a year and a half before we see the end of anyone who can get the media to propagate his bigotry. We're reaching a point where things will come to a head: The damn queers aren't keeping in the damn closets anymore!

At least if our next President's name ends with 'bama' or 'inton', Pace will be out. And maybe, just maybe if the Dems maintain control we'll see a new 'Don't ask, you can tell' policy. With the number of troops we're hemorrhaging we just can't afford this bullshit.

[Aaron]

Normally I would never speak out against a Mess member but at this point I feel I have to say something. I served with two openly gay members of the CF while I was in. One gay and one lesbian and I found that the best way to treat the symptoms of gay bashing/parinoia was to actually introduce the homophobic members to the gay members and to let them get to know the gays on a persoanl level over the course of several exercises while they worked in close quarters and the stigma went away. Eventually of course the CF mandated that gays would be allowed in the force without descrimination and all that went away, it was either accept them or your out. I think the US has to go that route or you'll never drive out the hate.

As for Lonestars personal views, come on buddy you know you've served with gays. You just never knew it. You might even have shared rack space with one.

[Medic]

Once (and at this rate it seems inevitable) there's a change in DADT policy it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that the leadership will effectively enforce policy. We (servicemembers) don't make policy but we do execute it to the best of our ability.

I just can't help but worry about a disconnect between what I've seen in the armed forces (anecdotal, granted) and what the Zogby bears out. It may just be that bigots are always more vocal and that there's a "silent majority."

[Coyote]

You're right, Cpl. Kendall... about all the things you mentioned...

The "gays in the military" thing is going to become the sneaky campaign issue of '08, I suspect. Military readiness is affected by it, and we have lost good people with good skills over this.

That said, it does put the front-line leaders in a bind. If I had a gay soldier I wouldn't report him, but to be honest I'd tell him in private to just keep it to himself. There's no guarantee that the supervisors above my level feel the same way about it, after all. The whole "don't ask don't tell" policy, while usefull in queslling argument, also quells useful conversation on the matter. But it's true, there are a lot of homophobes in the military, although most of them seem to be mostly ignorant rather than truly hateful.

And so, this is where the "cohesion" argument comes in, obviously. If squad or platoon morale is strained because of others' discomfort or unease... telling someone to grow up and having it happen can be two totally different things.

[Knife]

Thanks Damien. At this point, I don't give a flying fucking rat's petard what Lonestar thinks or says about anything anymore. He's chosen his side in this, now he deals with the consequences. I'm done with Lonestar, and I'm sick of his repeatedly shooting himself in the foot for this General Pace guy.

Wow, knee jerk much? You don't even know if Lonestar agree's with or disagree's with the central question and 'your done with him'? All he's argued about right now is 'it doesn't matter' what the jarhead numbnut said because he couldn't change the damn policy if he wanted to.

It could very well be the Lonestar has no problem with gays serving, but your still ready and willing to not only toast him to a crisp but then disavow him completely.

So, who's sticking a fork in this turkey?

Personally, while I don't have much of a problem with gays in the service, they would pose some logistical problems implementing such a policy- so you better save your fork for someone who actually disagree's with ya.

[FSTargetDrone]

Personally, while I don't have much of a problem with gays in the service, they would pose some logistical problems implementing such a policy- so you better save your fork for someone who actually disagree's with ya.

Logistical problems, how so? Do you mean providing separate quarters on base or other facilities?

I don't see how it's any different from integrating women into the service. I think some of the people opposed to having known gays in the service (I'm not singling you or anyone else out here) comes from a hysterical belief that gays will start to make sexual advances against straight service members.