We all thought the Eclipse was huge...

[Ford Prefect]

Yes, it is impossible. Why do you think that they were gaping in shock and horror at the Chaos Planet Killer?

Because of it's ability to easily destroy a planet on its own. Because of its extremely atypical power generation abilities. This isn't C.S. Goto's ridiculous 'Exterminatus arrays'. This is just a very large space ship.

It is nonsense: there is a difference between warp capable ships and idiotically dense materials for titans.

No, not Titans the warmachines, Titan the moon of Saturn.

Moreso, since uberships that have been described such as the CPK and the Craftworlds are meant to be beyond the capabilities of the Imperium, and the 16-20 km Mass Conveyors are in fact from ancient times.

Then perhaps the ship in the OP was built by Chaos Sorcery. I always took the Planet killer's impossibility as being from the nature of the Armageddon Gun, not size. Eldar Craftworlds, perhaps, but then a Craftworld is much more massive than the Bloodquest ship.

[Lord Zentei]

Yes, it is impossible. Why do you think that they were gaping in shock and horror at the Chaos Planet Killer?

Because of it's ability to easily destroy a planet on its own. Because of its extremely atypical power generation abilities. This isn't C.S. Goto's ridiculous 'Exterminatus arrays'. This is just a very large space ship.

"Apart from its firepower" I said. The AdMech refused to beleive that such a ship could be constructed in realpace.

It is nonsense: there is a difference between warp capable ships and idiotically dense materials for titans.

No, not Titans the warmachines, Titan the moon of Saturn.

Whatever.

Moreso, since uberships that have been described such as the CPK and the Craftworlds are meant to be beyond the capabilities of the Imperium, and the 16-20 km Mass Conveyors are in fact from ancient times.

Then perhaps the ship in the OP was built by Chaos Sorcery. I always took the Planet killer's impossibility as being from the nature of the Armageddon Gun, not size. Eldar Craftworlds, perhaps, but then a Craftworld is much more massive than the Bloodquest ship.

Size was also a factor in the CPK's incredibility.

Eldar craftworlds are described as being tens to hundreds of miles across and "much larger" than anything the other races could build. That ship is like a low-end craftworld.

Anyway, the Mass Conveyors have been described as larger than the warships of the Navy. If an extraordinary mass conveyor is 20 km, there is certainly no warship that is 70 km.

[Ford Prefect]

"Apart from its firepower" I said. The AdMech refused to beleive that such a ship could be constructed in realpace.

They are quite clearly wrong. Craftworlds are considerably more massive, and certainly did not have an Eye of Terror to rely on.

Whatever.

So you're just going to dismiss such a massive industrial feat?

Size was also a factor in the CPK's incredibility.

How big is the Planet killer, anyway?

Eldar craftworlds are described as being tens to hundreds of miles across and "much larger" than anything the other races could build. That ship is like a low-end craftworld.

Seventy kilometres long and probably fifteen to twenty wide does not a Craftworld make. Even Altansar is going to be as wide as this thing is long, definitely longer and certainly taller. Even the smallest Craftworld is going to dwarf this monster.

Anyway, the Mass Conveyors have been described as larger than the warships of the Navy. If an extraordinary mass conveyor is 20 km, there is certainly no warship that is 70 km.

Then this relies on this being a ship of Chaos make, which solves all our problems, because it would neither part of His Divine Imperial Navy or built in realspace.

[Lord Zentei]

"Apart from its firepower" I said. The AdMech refused to beleive that such a ship could be constructed in realpace.

They are quite clearly wrong. Craftworlds are considerably more massive, and certainly did not have an Eye of Terror to rely on.

Yeah? And they are built by the Eldar supertech, not the tech base of the Imperium that the Traitor Legions rely on also.

Whatever.

So you're just going to dismiss such a massive industrial feat?

Did you miss my point? It is irrelevant. Idiotically dense materials are not the same as overwanked ships that are out-of-continuity.

Size was also a factor in the CPK's incredibility.

How big is the Planet killer, anyway?

I seem to recall ten times larger than normal, though this may be me misremembering things. In any case, its not as large as the largest craftworlds.

Eldar craftworlds are described as being tens to hundreds of miles across and "much larger" than anything the other races could build. That ship is like a low-end craftworld.

Seventy kilometres long and probably fifteen to twenty wide does not a Craftworld make. Even Altansar is going to be as wide as this thing is long, definitely longer and certainly taller. Even the smallest Craftworld is going to dwarf this monster.

Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles. That thing is tens of miles in length, easily. Nope, its too large.

Anyway, the Mass Conveyors have been described as larger than the warships of the Navy. If an extraordinary mass conveyor is 20 km, there is certainly no warship that is 70 km.

Then this relies on this being a ship of Chaos make, which solves all our problems, because it would neither part of His Divine Imperial Navy or built in realspace.

And it is not a campaign-theme showstopper on par with the CPK. Its a fucking warship. What, do you think that these superduperships of Chaos are a dime a dozen or something?

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah? And they are built by the Eldar supertech, not the tech base of the Imperium that the Traitor Legions rely on also.

That was specifically in response to Tech Priests claiming that building such vessels in realspace is impossible, when far larger constructs have been built. Yes, they were built by the Eldar, but they were built in realspace as well.

Did you miss my point? It is irrelevant. Idiotically dense materials are not the same as overwanked ships that are out-of-continuity.

It's also a massive industrial feat. Incredible in fact, and certainly much more vast than building a ship of that size. It takes a lot of work to make an object such as Titan mass as much as the Earth. It takes an incredible industrial background.

I seem to recall ten times larger than normal, though this may be me misremembering things. In any case, its not as large as the largest craftworlds.

Ten times larger than what? A battleship (in which case it is similiar if not larger than the Bloodquest ship) I only have one picture of it, and its the BFG model.

Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles. That thing is tens of miles in length, easily. Nope, its too large.

You're being far too simplistic. Yes, it is tens of miles long. Altansar Craftworld would easily outmass it, and Altansar is small. Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles across, but they are also tens of miles tall and tens to hundreds of miles long as well.

And it is not a campaign-theme showstopper on par with the CPK. Its a fucking warship. What, do you think that these superduperships of Chaos are a dime a dozen or something?

Where did I suggest that? At all? Do you have any proof that it's larger than the Planet Killer? If anything they are similiar in size, and the Planet Killer has the Armageddon Gun, which is the main reason why it is so feared. No, not because of its size, which is impressive, but because it can destroy a planet with casual ease compared to the Imperium.

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah? And they are built by the Eldar supertech, not the tech base of the Imperium that the Traitor Legions rely on also.

That was specifically in response to Tech Priests claiming that building such vessels in realspace is impossible, when far larger constructs have been built. Yes, they were built by the Eldar, but they were built in realspace as well.

So? We are talking about what they beleived the Traitor Legions were capable of. This is a red herring, damn it.

Did you miss my point? It is irrelevant. Idiotically dense materials are not the same as overwanked ships that are out-of-continuity.

It's also a massive industrial feat. Incredible in fact, and certainly much more vast than building a ship of that size. It takes a lot of work to make an object such as Titan mass as much as the Earth. It takes an incredible industrial background.

Another red herring. Who gives a shit? We are discussing a warship whose size is out of continuity, not some arbitrary industrial feat.

I seem to recall ten times larger than normal, though this may be me misremembering things. In any case, its not as large as the largest craftworlds.

Ten times larger than what? A battleship (in which case it is similiar if not larger than the Bloodquest ship) I only have one picture of it, and its the BFG model.

Than a battleship.

Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles. That thing is tens of miles in length, easily. Nope, its too large.

You're being far too simplistic. Yes, it is tens of miles long. Altansar Craftworld would easily outmass it, and Altansar is small. Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles across, but they are also tens of miles tall and tens to hundreds of miles long as well.

No. That ship is ten miles wide, ten miles deep and fifty miles long. Moreover, the craftworlds are not all spherical. I am not being too simplistic at all.

And it is not a campaign-theme showstopper on par with the CPK. Its a fucking warship. What, do you think that these superduperships of Chaos are a dime a dozen or something?

Where did I suggest that? At all?

You suggested that since they constructed the CPK, they could construct more uberships, even if the CPK was thought to be unique. If some random story or other can feature such huge ships as a matter of course, and that the size of the ship is not somehow a major issue in the story, then the implication is that such huge ships are fairly readily available.

Do you have any proof that it's larger than the Planet Killer? If anything they are similiar in size, and the Planet Killer has the Armageddon Gun, which is the main reason why it is so feared. No, not because of its size, which is impressive, but because it can destroy a planet with casual ease compared to the Imperium.

I did not say it was larger than the Planet Killer.

I pointed out that it was obscenely larger than not only any warship existant in the Imperium, but also obscenely larger than even the most extraordinary mass conveyor in AdMech. And by extension, it is obscenely larger than any ship among the Traitor Fleets, except possibly for the Planet Killer.

And you continue to ignore the continuity with regards to ship sizes. The Planet Killer was extraordinary in terms of size, not just firepower.

[Ford Prefect]

So? We are talking about what they beleived the Traitor Legions were capable of. This is a red herring, damn it.

It's an example of the Adeptus Mechanicus being wrong.

Another red herring. Who gives a shit? We are discussing a warship whose size is out of continuity, not some arbitrary industrial feat.

It was merely an example of what is possible industrially, and it is much greater than Leonatos' flagship. My only point is that such monstrosities are not impressive engineering wise compared to other feats from history.

No. That ship is ten miles wide, ten miles deep and fifty miles long. Moreover, the craftworlds are not all spherical. I am not being too simplistic at all.

No Craftworlds are spherical. And even ten miles wide, ten miles deep and fifty miles wide is smaller than any Craftworld by far.

You suggested that since they constructed the CPK, they could construct more uberships, even if the CPK was thought to be unique.

Only a moron would believe that after building the Planet Killer that Chaos would be incapable of building more such ships. The only limiting factor is time, as a ship of that size would take centuries to build.

If some random story or other can feature such huge ships as a matter of course, and that the size of the ship is not somehow a major issue in the story, then the implication is that such huge ships are fairly readily available.

Bloodquest is not some random story. It was one of the most popular 40k comics ever published, and written by Gordon Rennie, the same man who wrote the excellent Execution Hour.

I pointed out that it was obscenely larger than not only any warship existant in the Imperium, but also obscenely larger than even the most extraordinary mass conveyor in AdMech. And by extension, it is obscenely larger than any ship among the Traitor Fleets, except possibly for the Planet Killer.

Exactly why couldn't Chaos build more of ships on the same scale as the Planet Killer?

And you continue to ignore the continuity with regards to ship sizes. The Planet Killer was extraordinary in terms of size, not just firepower.

Yes, I realise that the Planet Killer was impressive because of size. The Planet Killer is in turn impressive even compared to the Bloodquest ship purely on account of the Armageddon Gun.

[Lord Zentei]

So? We are talking about what they beleived the Traitor Legions were capable of. This is a red herring, damn it.

It's an example of the Adeptus Mechanicus being wrong.

No. They claimed that the CPK could not be built in realspace; they obviously stated that with the Imperium's tech base in mind. Obviously the Eldar can do crazy shit, that is not relevant to what Abbadon can accomplish in realspace.

Another red herring. Who gives a shit? We are discussing a warship whose size is out of continuity, not some arbitrary industrial feat.

It was merely an example of what is possible industrially, and it is much greater than Leonatos' flagship. My only point is that such monstrosities are not impressive engineering wise compared to other feats from history.

O'RLY? Except that the ship is OUT OF CONTINUITY. That is the core of the issue. Who is to say that an industrial feat of an unrelated kind has any bearing at all on the issue?

No. That ship is ten miles wide, ten miles deep and fifty miles long. Moreover, the craftworlds are not all spherical. I am not being too simplistic at all.

No Craftworlds are spherical. And even ten miles wide, ten miles deep and fifty miles wide is smaller than any Craftworld by far.

Bullshit. They are NOT all spherical. They are usually spherical or circular. Also, see the boardgame The Fall of Iyanden that shows a full size plan view of Iyanden that is anything but spherical.

You suggested that since they constructed the CPK, they could construct more uberships, even if the CPK was thought to be unique.

Only a moron would believe that after building the Planet Killer that Chaos would be incapable of building more such ships. The only limiting factor is time, as a ship of that size would take centuries to build.

Only a moron would beleive that a unique ship being built would imply that enough ships of that size could be built that they could be featured as the Chaos Warship of the Episode/Story Arc. Get lost.

If some random story or other can feature such huge ships as a matter of course, and that the size of the ship is not somehow a major issue in the story, then the implication is that such huge ships are fairly readily available.

Bloodquest is not some random story. It was one of the most popular 40k comics ever published, and written by Gordon Rennie, the same man who wrote the excellent Execution Hour.

Yeah? So what? Its size is still out of continuity. Deal with it.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm arguing against the fucking ARTIST, not the writer.

I pointed out that it was obscenely larger than not only any warship existant in the Imperium, but also obscenely larger than even the most extraordinary mass conveyor in AdMech. And by extension, it is obscenely larger than any ship among the Traitor Fleets, except possibly for the Planet Killer.

Exactly why couldn't Chaos build more of ships on the same scale as the Planet Killer?

It was a UNIQUE SHIP, fool. That suggests it to be a major fucking project.

And you continue to ignore the continuity with regards to ship sizes. The Planet Killer was extraordinary in terms of size, not just firepower.

Yes, I realise that the Planet Killer was impressive because of size. The Planet Killer is in turn impressive even compared to the Bloodquest ship purely on account of the Armageddon Gun.

Whatever. Now we have established that the Bloodquest ship's size is nowhere near what is reasonable for even a major warship, being on par with a uniquely massive warship, firepower aside.

[Ford Prefect]

No. They claimed that the CPK could not be built in realspace; they obviously stated that with the Imperium's tech base in mind. Obviously the Eldar can do crazy shit, that is not relevant to what Abbadon can accomplish in realspace.

Hmm, true. Point.

O'RLY? Except that the ship is OUT OF CONTINUITY. That is the core of the issue. Who is to say that an industrial feat of an unrelated kind has any bearing at all on the issue?

Bullshit. They are NOT all spherical.

Yes, I know. That's what I just said.

They are usually spherical or circular. Also, see the boardgame The Fall of Iyanden that shows a full size plan view of Iyanden that is anything but spherical.

It's anything but round either. Linka

Only a moron would beleive that a unique ship being built would imply that enough ships of that size could be built that they could be featured as the Chaos Warship of the Episode/Story Arc. Get lost.

So the flagship of a mighty fleet at the climax of an entire story is some random ship. Of course.

Yeah? So what? Its size is still out of continuity. Deal with it.

You have yet to give any real reason for this statement. No, the Imperium does not have ships of this size. Chaos, on theo ther hand, has the capability, and have done it before.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm arguing against the fucking ARTIST, not the writer.

Surely the writer has a hand in what a scene looks like?

It was a UNIQUE SHIP, fool. That suggests it to be a major fucking project.

Yes, the Planet Killer was a major project, I do have the very article which describes it sitting right in front of me. It took millions of slaves and many sorcerors; but it makes no suggestions that the entirety of the Eye of Terror's supernatural industrial might was bent towards building one ship; Abaddon doesn't rule the Eye totally all the time.

There is no reason to believe that building another of these over the course of centuries is impossible, especially considering the Eye is a region of space some ten thousand light years across.

Whatever. Now we have established that the Bloodquest ship's size is nowhere near what is reasonable for even a major warship, being on par with a uniquely massive warship, firepower aside.

It did belong to the most powerful Prince on Eidolon, which is a major Daemon World. A Tzeentchian Prince too, so it's not so much of a stretch to believe that it could set-up a huge industrial project like building a Planet Killer sized vessel. They have no shortness of energy available, as the Eldar are quite convinced that the Warp has infinite energy to draw from. Within the Eye, Daemon Princes have been known to form clusters of suns shaped like roses. Billions of tons of mass, millions of workers, the requisite polluted magicks and a few centuries is definitely possible for such a being.

[Lord Zentei]

O'RLY? Except that the ship is OUT OF CONTINUITY. That is the core of the issue. Who is to say that an industrial feat of an unrelated kind has any bearing at all on the issue?

You did not respond here. Concession?

Bullshit. They are NOT all spherical.

Yes, I know. That's what I just said.

That did not seem to be the point of your post, though:

You're being far too simplistic. Yes, it is tens of miles long. Altansar Craftworld would easily outmass it, and Altansar is small. Craftworlds are tens to hundreds of miles across, but they are also tens of miles tall and tens to hundreds of miles long as well.

Understand my counterpoint?

Only a moron would beleive that a unique ship being built would imply that enough ships of that size could be built that they could be featured as the Chaos Warship of the Episode/Story Arc. Get lost.

So the flagship of a mighty fleet at the climax of an entire story is some random ship. Of course.

Of course. Does the idea of the CPK being a UNIQUELY MASSIVE WARSHIP still not seep in?

Yeah? So what? Its size is still out of continuity. Deal with it.

You have yet to give any real reason for this statement. No, the Imperium does not have ships of this size. Chaos, on theo ther hand, has the capability, and have done it before.

I have, multiple times.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm arguing against the fucking ARTIST, not the writer.

Surely the writer has a hand in what a scene looks like?

If so, Gordon Rennie is a tool. And in any case, size issues in 40K artwork is a continious source of annoyance, what with titans who seem to change size between shots. Its as if they simply go for that wank feel and don't give a shit about continuity of scale.

It was a UNIQUE SHIP, fool. That suggests it to be a major fucking project.

Yes, the Planet Killer was a major project, I do have the very article which describes it sitting right in front of me. It took millions of slaves and many sorcerors; but it makes no suggestions that the entirety of the Eye of Terror's supernatural industrial might was bent towards building one ship; Abaddon doesn't rule the Eye totally all the time.

There is no reason to believe that building another of these over the course of centuries is impossible, especially considering the Eye is a region of space some ten thousand light years across.

It was a uniquely major project. And evidence that these guys had resources on par with Abaddon, and that the reactions of the Imperials were in keeping with the scale of the project?

Whatever. Now we have established that the Bloodquest ship's size is nowhere near what is reasonable for even a major warship, being on par with a uniquely massive warship, firepower aside.

It did belong to the most powerful Prince on Eidolon, which is a major Daemon World. A Tzeentchian Prince too, so it's not so much of a stretch to believe that it could set-up a huge industrial project like building a Planet Killer sized vessel. They have no shortness of energy available, as the Eldar are quite convinced that the Warp has infinite energy to draw from. Within the Eye, Daemon Princes have been known to form clusters of suns shaped like roses. Billions of tons of mass, millions of workers, the requisite polluted magicks and a few centuries is definitely possible for such a being.

Infinite energy.

Whatever. It still has to fly out of there. And how come the CPK was unique in scale if that were as straightforward as you claim?


EDIT: extraneous quote tag removed.

[Ford Prefect]

Ugh, I just noticed some atrocious spelling on my part. Sorry.

You did not respond here. Concession?

It was meant to demonstrate that the industrial scale is vast enough that this is trivial in comparison.

Understand my counterpoint?

No, I don't understand your 'counterpoint' at all, because it doesn't appear to exist. Not once did I suggest a Craftworld being spherical - if you think I did, then that's a misreading by you. I have no idea what you're trying to say here. My point is clear - even the smallest of Craftworlds are much, much larger than Planet Killer scale ships.

Of course. Does the idea of the CPK being a UNIQUELY MASSIVE WARSHIP still not seep in?

It was uniquely massive, according to the Imperium. The Imperium does not have comprehensive intelligence from the interior of the Eye. And even though it was uniquely massive at the time, does not mean it is uniquely massive any longer.

I have, multiple times.

Poorly; you seem to dwell on the Planet Killer being the 'only' warship of that size. It was the only warship of the size that the Imperium recorded, and likely the only warship of that size at the time during the Gothic War. However, since then, almost eight hundred years have passed, and Leonatos' flagship was destroyed at the end of Bloodquest.

If so, Gordon Rennie is a tool. And in any case, size issues in 40K artwork is a continious source of annoyance, what with titans who seem to change size between shots. Its as if they simply go for that wank feel and don't give a shit about continuity of scale.

The scale is frankly massive. The Imperium deals in mega-scale construction project that we can't even dream of. A seventy kilometre starship is out of the ordinary, but it's not so large as to be totally impossible.

It was a uniquely major project.

At the time of construction yes, almost eight hundred years before the modern day.

And evidence that these guys had resources on par with Abaddon, and that the reactions of the Imperials were in keeping with the scale of the project?

The ship was completed before the beginning of Bloodquest, as I understand it, and I only caught the last issue at that point, so I'm not sure if we actually see any Imperials reacting before it is destroyed.

As for resources:

Infinite energy.

Whine about it all we like, that's the face of it according to the Eldar. Daemon Princes frequently violate the laws of physics within the Eye of Terror, violently. As the lord and master of a major Daemon World, the Tzeentchian Daemon Prince would definitely have access to millions of slaves, enough magic to pull of a variety of obscene feats and lives on a ball of matter that masses somewhere in the range of a trillion trillion tons.

Yes, he definitely has access to the resources.

And how come the CPK was unique in scale if that were as straightforward as you claim?

The Planet Killer was unique in scale in the early days of the second century of the forty first millenium. It needn't be unique for all of time.

[Lord Zentei]

You did not respond here. Concession?

It was meant to demonstrate that the industrial scale is vast enough that this is trivial in comparison.

No it does not. If it were so, we would see similarly gargantuan ships in the Imperium. We do not. Therefore, there must be other limiting factors to ship-building. This remains a red herring. Let it drop.

Understand my counterpoint?

No, I don't understand your 'counterpoint' at all, because it doesn't appear to exist. Not once did I suggest a Craftworld being spherical - if you think I did, then that's a misreading by you. I have no idea what you're trying to say here. My point is clear - even the smallest of Craftworlds are much, much larger than Planet Killer scale ships.

You argued that Craftworlds were tens of miles high and deep as well as tens of miles long. This need not be the case.

Of course. Does the idea of the CPK being a UNIQUELY MASSIVE WARSHIP still not seep in?

It was uniquely massive, according to the Imperium. The Imperium does not have comprehensive intelligence from the interior of the Eye. And even though it was uniquely massive at the time, does not mean it is uniquely massive any longer.

I'm fairly sure that if Chaos had multiple such ships, they would not leave them in the Eye.

I have, multiple times.

Poorly; you seem to dwell on the Planet Killer being the 'only' warship of that size. It was the only warship of the size that the Imperium recorded, and likely the only warship of that size at the time during the Gothic War. However, since then, almost eight hundred years have passed, and Leonatos' flagship was destroyed at the end of Bloodquest.

No, not poorly. The comments were based on existant material, and the relevance and import of exceptions to the rule there.

If so, Gordon Rennie is a tool. And in any case, size issues in 40K artwork is a continious source of annoyance, what with titans who seem to change size between shots. Its as if they simply go for that wank feel and don't give a shit about continuity of scale.

The scale is frankly massive. The Imperium deals in mega-scale construction project that we can't even dream of. A seventy kilometre starship is out of the ordinary, but it's not so large as to be totally impossible.

Once again: CONTINUITY. Starships != hive cities or orbitals. Prove that the Imperium possesses the ability to build such ships, and then explain why they do not. Anyway, you skirt around the point: artwork in 40K is outrageously inconsistent in terms of scale. Hence my point regarding the titans that change size.

It was a uniquely major project.

At the time of construction yes, almost eight hundred years before the modern day.

And during the 13th Black Crusade.

And evidence that these guys had resources on par with Abaddon, and that the reactions of the Imperials were in keeping with the scale of the project?

The ship was completed before the beginning of Bloodquest, as I understand it, and I only caught the last issue at that point, so I'm not sure if we actually see any Imperials reacting before it is destroyed.

Well, that remains to be seen then.

Infinite energy.

Whine about it all we like, that's the face of it according to the Eldar. Daemon Princes frequently violate the laws of physics within the Eye of Terror, violently. As the lord and master of a major Daemon World, the Tzeentchian Daemon Prince would definitely have access to millions of slaves, enough magic to pull of a variety of obscene feats and lives on a ball of matter that masses somewhere in the range of a trillion trillion tons.

It is not "whining" to point out a hyperbole. If the energy reserves were infinite, they would already have squashed all opposition like a bug.

Yes, he definitely has access to the resources.

Oh, so. You have just described something every major Daemon Prince has. They do not all have CPKs.

And how come the CPK was unique in scale if that were as straightforward as you claim?

The Planet Killer was unique in scale in the early days of the second century of the forty first millenium. It needn't be unique for all of time.

It was also uniquely massive in Abbadon's Thirteenth Black Crusade, with the exception of the Blackstone Fortresses. If not, were were all these other gargantuan ships?

[Ford Prefect]

No it does not. If it were so, we would see similarly gargantuan ships in the Imperium. We do not. Therefore, there must be other limiting factors to ship-building. This remains a red herring. Let it drop.

Very well.

You argued that Craftworlds were tens of miles high and deep as well as tens of miles long. This need not be the case.

No, I suggested that they would be 'tens to hundreds' of miles long compared to tens of miles wide/deep. I got this idea from the very picture of Iyanden that you told me to go look at, and which I already had.

I'm fairly sure that if Chaos had multiple such ships, they would not leave them in the Eye.

You'd be correct. Leonatos was just on his way to invade the imperium. Funny that.

No, not poorly. The comments were based on existant material, and the relevance and import of exceptions to the rule there.

You ignore the very important fact that eight hundred years have passed since the Gothic War. Obviously, such a ship was built in that time; which is most definitely possible. There may be other ships under way of such scale, however, only the Planet Killer is currently operational.

Once again: CONTINUITY. Starships != hive cities or orbitals. Prove that the Imperium possesses the ability to build such ships, and then explain why they do not.

The imperium may not have the capability, but this does not mean Chaos does not. The scale in general is enormous, so frankly your cries of this being against continuity are ridiculous. This is a part of the continuity, and it meshes perfectly well with Chaos' observed capabilities.

And during the 13th Black Crusade.

Of course; Leonatos' flagship was destroyed before that campaign rolled around. Building such a ship is a major deal, so I find it doubtful there are many such projects underway.

Well, that remains to be seen then.

Indeed.

It is not "whining" to point out a hyperbole. If the energy reserves were infinite, they would already have squashed all opposition like a bug.

Infinite energy is the implication of Eldar research. Simply because one has infinite energy stored away does not mean that they can draw on it all. Regardless, even the merest flicker of the Warp contains stellar levels of evergy (as indicated in Navigator Cassander's musing during Execution Hour).

Oh, so.

There are certain things a populated, major planet has. One of them is mass, the other is people (Eidolon is certainly not empty, and while it isn't exactly normal, it still has mass, though it is probably variable). Eidolon is also considered an important world; it was the major target of the Eldar's during the 13th Black Crusade.

Besides, it's not like mass was a problem for Abaddon, who doesn't actually hold an territory within the Eye; the Black Legion is permanently stationed on starships according to their Index Astartes article.

It was also uniquely massive in Abbadon's Thirteenth Black Crusade, with the exception of the Blackstone Fortresses. If not, were were all these other gargantuan ships?

The only other one we know of was destroyed at the end of Bloodquest. They take centuries to build and are rather major undertakings. Depending on the 'political state' of the Eye it may be difficult to have one of these things on the go purely because other Lords will be likely sabotaging one's efforts.

EDIT: This one didn't appear when I quoted you:

You have just described something every major Daemon Prince has. They do not all have CPKs.

Not every Daemon Prince has the inclination to build it. Many are more than happy to just fop around in the Eye doing shit all.

[Lord Zentei]

You argued that Craftworlds were tens of miles high and deep as well as tens of miles long. This need not be the case.

No, I suggested that they would be 'tens to hundreds' of miles long compared to tens of miles wide/deep. I got this idea from the very picture of Iyanden that you told me to go look at, and which I already had.

And Iyanden is one of the largest of the Craftworlds.

I'm fairly sure that if Chaos had multiple such ships, they would not leave them in the Eye.

You'd be correct. Leonatos was just on his way to invade the imperium. Funny that.

You insinuated that it would be possible to have such ships at the climax of "an entire story". Moreover, you ignore the fact that the ship has a thousand times the volume of a BB. Where are all these shipbuilding resources of Chaos up until this point?

No, not poorly. The comments were based on existant material, and the relevance and import of exceptions to the rule there.

You ignore the very important fact that eight hundred years have passed since the Gothic War. Obviously, such a ship was built in that time; which is most definitely possible. There may be other ships under way of such scale, however, only the Planet Killer is currently operational.

This all depends on the reaction of the Imperials to the ship when they see it. Tell you what: if they react with "OMFG, HAX! ITS BIG LIEK TEH CPK!!" at its size, I'll grant it. Otherwise, its wank.

Once again: CONTINUITY. Starships != hive cities or orbitals. Prove that the Imperium possesses the ability to build such ships, and then explain why they do not.

The imperium may not have the capability, but this does not mean Chaos does not. The scale in general is enormous, so frankly your cries of this being against continuity are ridiculous. This is a part of the continuity, and it meshes perfectly well with Chaos' observed capabilities.

Its not ridiculous, you tool, because scale in shipbuilding is one thing, scale in other endeavours are something else. We've already covered this. Also, Chaos' observed capabilities are taken into account in my posts.

And during the 13th Black Crusade.

Of course; Leonatos' flagship was destroyed before that campaign rolled around. Building such a ship is a major deal, so I find it doubtful there are many such projects underway.

In other words, you are insinuating that Leonatos' ship is on par with the CPK in terms of uniqueness of scale.

It is not "whining" to point out a hyperbole. If the energy reserves were infinite, they would already have squashed all opposition like a bug.

Infinite energy is the implication of Eldar research. Simply because one has infinite energy stored away does not mean that they can draw on it all. Regardless, even the merest flicker of the Warp contains stellar levels of evergy (as indicated in Navigator Cassander's musing during Execution Hour).

Indeed. Then your invocation of "infinite energy" was a red herring.

Oh, so.

There are certain things a populated, major planet has. One of them is mass, the other is people (Eidolon is certainly not empty, and while it isn't exactly normal, it still has mass, though it is probably variable). Eidolon is also considered an important world; it was the major target of the Eldar's during the 13th Black Crusade.

Besides, it's not like mass was a problem for Abaddon, who doesn't actually hold an territory within the Eye; the Black Legion is permanently stationed on starships according to their Index Astartes article.

Abbadon holds not territory, but he commands the fealty of innumerable beings that do.

It was also uniquely massive in Abbadon's Thirteenth Black Crusade, with the exception of the Blackstone Fortresses. If not, were were all these other gargantuan ships?

The only other one we know of was destroyed at the end of Bloodquest. They take centuries to build and are rather major undertakings. Depending on the 'political state' of the Eye it may be difficult to have one of these things on the go purely because other Lords will be likely sabotaging one's efforts.

So: at least you are asserting that it is a similarly uniqe vessel as the CPK size-wise, and that apart from the CPK nothing like it has emerged from the eye. Correct?

[Ford Prefect]

And Iyanden is one of the largest of the Craftworlds.

The shape, not the size. It appears longer than it is wide, though Craftworlds will definitely appear different in shape much as they do in size.

You insinuated that it would be possible to have such ships at the climax of "an entire story".

No, I was replying your insinuation that it was a throwaway story with that comment.

Moreover, you ignore the fact that the ship has a thousand times the volume of a BB. Where are all these shipbuilding resources of Chaos up until this point?

Busy building that one, I suspect.

This all depends on the reaction of the Imperials to the ship when they see it. Tell you what: if they react with "OMFG, HAX! ITS BIG LIEK TEH CPK!!" at its size, I'll grant it. Otherwise, its wank.

Gordon Rennie is good with that sort of thing.

Its not ridiculous, you tool, because scale in shipbuilding is one thing, scale in other endeavours are something else. We've already covered this. Also, Chaos' observed capabilities are taken into account in my posts.

Likely, the Imperium limits the size of their ships so as to maintain high accelerations. The Planet Killer is so massive that it happens to be incredibly slow in comparison to other ships. The imperium has a lot of territory to cover. Speed is of the essence.

In other words, you are insinuating that Leonatos' ship is on par with the CPK in terms of uniqueness of scale.

Of course. Look at the size of that thing!

Indeed. Then your invocation of "infinite energy" was a red herring.

Why? The Eldar, undoubtedly some of the foremost experts on the Warp, seem to believe it has infinite energy. It may not be, but you'd have to give some evidence that it does not. Even if it doesn't, it has more than enough energy to draw upon that the boys in the Eye may have to start running short some time in the next bazillion years.

Abbadon holds not territory, but he commands the fealty of innumerable beings that do.

That fealty seems extremely variable, if you ask me. The first issue of White Dwarf I ever bought had a story in it where one of Abaddon's vassals decided to murder some of the Warmaster's messengers, purely on a whim. Ultimately, Evenus did respond to Abaddon's summons, but it's not like his influence is absolute.

However, you are correct otherwise.

So: at least you are asserting that it is a similarly uniqe vessel as the CPK size-wise, and that apart from the CPK nothing like it has emerged from the eye. Correct?

Yeah, that's about right. It's not like I'd want to call these things common. That just take a lot out of the spectacle of its appearance.

[Lord Zentei]

And Iyanden is one of the largest of the Craftworlds.

The shape, not the size. It appears longer than it is wide, though Craftworlds will definitely appear different in shape much as they do in size.

A 50 mile x 10 mile x 10 mile ship would have about the same volume as a 25 mile x 20 mile x 10 mile craftworld.

You insinuated that it would be possible to have such ships at the climax of "an entire story".

No, I was replying your insinuation that it was a throwaway story with that comment.

Calling it a throwaway story may be a bit much. However, any single story that involves something like that has to be pretty fucking major. Shades of Darksaber and the "Ultra" Star Destroyer otherwise. And in the case of the Ultra: at least it had the twin excuses that it was 1: intended for extragalactic conquest and so was truly extraordinary and 2: fanwank.

Moreover, you ignore the fact that the ship has a thousand times the volume of a BB. Where are all these shipbuilding resources of Chaos up until this point?

Busy building that one, I suspect.

Ho ho. Eidolon is a single Daemon World.

This all depends on the reaction of the Imperials to the ship when they see it. Tell you what: if they react with "OMFG, HAX! ITS BIG LIEK TEH CPK!!" at its size, I'll grant it. Otherwise, its wank.

Gordon Rennie is good with that sort of thing.

Remains to be seen. Anyway, continuity of scale among artists in 40K remains atrocious. CF: that Ignatius Whatsisname tool.

Its not ridiculous, you tool, because scale in shipbuilding is one thing, scale in other endeavours are something else. We've already covered this. Also, Chaos' observed capabilities are taken into account in my posts.

Likely, the Imperium limits the size of their ships so as to maintain high accelerations. The Planet Killer is so massive that it happens to be incredibly slow in comparison to other ships. The imperium has a lot of territory to cover. Speed is of the essence.

Not neccesarily for mass conveyance. The mass conveyors are limited in scale. Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that they can: its almost like accepting that the Feddies "can" build a proper ground army even if we never see one.

In other words, you are insinuating that Leonatos' ship is on par with the CPK in terms of uniqueness of scale.

Of course. Look at the size of that thing!

Good.

Indeed. Then your invocation of "infinite energy" was a red herring.

Why? The Eldar, undoubtedly some of the foremost experts on the Warp, seem to believe it has infinite energy. It may not be, but you'd have to give some evidence that it does not. Even if it doesn't, it has more than enough energy to draw upon that the boys in the Eye may have to start running short some time in the next bazillion years.

You stated that just because one has infinite energy does not mean that one can use it all. That they cannot use an infinite amount of energy is self evident. Therefore it is a red herring to state that they have infinite energy.

Abbadon holds not territory, but he commands the fealty of innumerable beings that do.

That fealty seems extremely variable, if you ask me. The first issue of White Dwarf I ever bought had a story in it where one of Abaddon's vassals decided to murder some of the Warmaster's messengers, purely on a whim. Ultimately, Evenus did respond to Abaddon's summons, but it's not like his influence is absolute.

However, you are correct otherwise.

It's not absolute, obviously, since the 13th crusade was an unprescedented event. Its nonetheless the case that his power almost certainly outstrips that of any single daemon world.

So: at least you are asserting that it is a similarly uniqe vessel as the CPK size-wise, and that apart from the CPK nothing like it has emerged from the eye. Correct?

Yeah, that's about right. It's not like I'd want to call these things common. That just take a lot out of the spectacle of its appearance.

That we seem to agree on.

[SylasGaunt]

But it has one helluva hood ornament.

[Ford Prefect]

A 50 mile x 10 mile x 10 mile ship would have about the same volume as a 25 mile x 20 mile x 10 mile craftworld.

Frankly, I find the idea of any Craftworld being anything less than fifty to seventy miles long laughable. If Iyanenden isn't at least a hundred I'll eat my sombrero.

Calling it a throwaway story may be a bit much. However, any single story that involves something like that has to be pretty fucking major.

Bloodquest was pretty goddamn major.

Shades of Darksaber and the "Ultra" Star Destroyer otherwise. And in the case of the Ultra: at least it had the twin excuses that it was 1: intended for extragalactic conquest and so was truly extraordinary and 2: fanwank.

Comparing the Lord of a Daemon World to a bunch of Hutts is laughable, and while the leap in scale is comparable in a broad sense, wasn't the Ultra class three hundred kilometres long, or was it five? I do recall it was big enough that you could hide of the original Death Stars behind it quite comfortably.

Ho ho. Eidolon is a single Daemon World.

Indeed, and an important one at that.

Remains to be seen. Anyway, continuity of scale among artists in 40K remains atrocious. CF: that Ignatius Whatsisname tool.

Please, nothing is as stupid as the Exterminatus Array's hat Goto saw fit to equip the Space Marines with.

Not neccesarily for mass conveyance. The mass conveyors are limited in scale. Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that they can: its almost like accepting that the Feddies "can" build a proper ground army even if we never see one.

A fair point, though admittedly the Fedartion could build an effective ground based army, should they not be a bunch of retards.

You stated that just because one has infinite energy does not mean that one can use it all. That they cannot use an infinite amount of energy is self evident. Therefore it is a red herring to state that they have infinite energy.

Erm, no, not really. They may not be able to just whip infinite watts out of nowhere and just blast the universe into ... I'm not sure what you get when you destroy the universe; however, if they ever run out, then yes, the energy in the Warp is infinite.

It's not absolute, obviously, since the 13th crusade was an unprescedented event. Its nonetheless the case that his power almost certainly outstrips that of any single daemon world.

Most probably, yes. Likely Eidolon was just the seat of power; any Daemon Prince who doesn't just sit around chilling in the light of his black sun or smelling burning flesh constantly and is actually willing to invade the material univese is probably also progressive enough to actually do this.

Your average Daemon Prince seems about as lazy as your average teenager, but with more cataclysmic power.

That we seem to agree on.

Yes, indeed.

So, will we ever hit page four or something?

[Lord Zentei]

A 50 mile x 10 mile x 10 mile ship would have about the same volume as a 25 mile x 20 mile x 10 mile craftworld.

Frankly, I find the idea of any Craftworld being anything less than fifty to seventy miles long laughable.

You forget that much of the linear dimension of the craftworld picture is fins, vanes and extraneous knick knacks that don't contribute much to volume. This is as opposed to a Chaos or Imperium warship that is a compact lump.

If Iyanenden isn't at least a hundred I'll eat my sombrero.

I did say "tens to hundreds of miles", and that Iyanden was one of the largest.

Calling it a throwaway story may be a bit much. However, any single story that involves something like that has to be pretty fucking major.

Bloodquest was pretty goddamn major.

Major, as in "Black Crusade" major?

Shades of Darksaber and the "Ultra" Star Destroyer otherwise. And in the case of the Ultra: at least it had the twin excuses that it was 1: intended for extragalactic conquest and so was truly extraordinary and 2: fanwank.

Comparing the Lord of a Daemon World to a bunch of Hutts is laughable, and while the leap in scale is comparable in a broad sense, wasn't the Ultra class three hundred kilometres long, or was it five? I do recall it was big enough that you could hide of the original Death Stars behind it quite comfortably.

Don't be stupid: I'm not comparing the Lord of a Daemon World to a bunch of Hutts. I'm pointing out that the Lord of a Daemon World is one of hundreds, even if he is major, as opposed to Abbadon, who, failings aside, is the top dog most of the time.

The Ultra was 256 km long, if I recall.

Ho ho. Eidolon is a single Daemon World.

Indeed, and an important one at that.

Not to the extent that it eclipses the capabilities of all the others. If Eidolon can pull of a wankship, a goodly number of others should be able to also. Not the same as Abbadon, who commands the fealty of a large number of Daemon Princes.

Remains to be seen. Anyway, continuity of scale among artists in 40K remains atrocious. CF: that Ignatius Whatsisname tool.

Please, nothing is as stupid as the Exterminatus Array's hat Goto saw fit to equip the Space Marines with.

Lets not mention that, please. Other than to hope that it will be struck from the Imperial Record (i.e. decanonized).

Not neccesarily for mass conveyance. The mass conveyors are limited in scale. Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that they can: its almost like accepting that the Feddies "can" build a proper ground army even if we never see one.

A fair point, though admittedly the Fedartion could build an effective ground based army, should they not be a bunch of retards.

Perhaps. But the Imperium are not a bunch of retards, and they still don't have such ships.

You stated that just because one has infinite energy does not mean that one can use it all. That they cannot use an infinite amount of energy is self evident. Therefore it is a red herring to state that they have infinite energy.

Erm, no, not really. They may not be able to just whip infinite watts out of nowhere and just blast the universe into ... I'm not sure what you get when you destroy the universe; however, if they ever run out, then yes, the energy in the Warp is infinite.

You mentioned that with regards to the resources that Chaos commands. In relation to our discussion on their shipbuilding capabilities.

It's not absolute, obviously, since the 13th crusade was an unprescedented event. Its nonetheless the case that his power almost certainly outstrips that of any single daemon world.

Most probably, yes. Likely Eidolon was just the seat of power; any Daemon Prince who doesn't just sit around chilling in the light of his black sun or smelling burning flesh constantly and is actually willing to invade the material univese is probably also progressive enough to actually do this.

Your average Daemon Prince seems about as lazy as your average teenager, but with more cataclysmic power.

So: you are suggesting that the Daemon Princes could actually churn out fleets of ships like that if they wanted to? Seriously? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

That we seem to agree on.

Yes, indeed.

So, will we ever hit page four or something?

We'll soon see.

[Lord Zentei]

Missed this:

EDIT: This one didn't appear when I quoted you:

You have just described something every major Daemon Prince has. They do not all have CPKs.

Not every Daemon Prince has the inclination to build it. Many are more than happy to just fop around in the Eye doing shit all.

From here it seems that you are in fact saying that they could build fleets of Leonatos scale ships and squash all opposition if they wanted to. Well, well.

[Ford Prefect]

You forget that much of the linear dimension of the craftworld picture is fins, vanes and extraneous knick knacks that don't contribute much to volume. This is as opposed to a Chaos or Imperium warship that is a compact lump.

A fair point, yes.

Major, as in "Black Crusade" major?

Ah, I misunderstood you. Ultimately, Leonatos' warfleet may have rivalled a Black Crusade in terms of size, though it would be unlikely to be on the same scale as the Gothic War, and certainly not the 13th.

Don't be stupid: I'm not comparing the Lord of a Daemon World to a bunch of Hutts. I'm pointing out that the Lord of a Daemon World is one of hundreds, even if he is major, as opposed to Abbadon, who, failings aside, is the top dog most of the time.

Ah, point taken.

Not to the extent that it eclipses the capabilities of all the others. If Eidolon can pull of a wankship, a goodly number of others should be able to also. Not the same as Abbadon, who commands the fealty of a large number of Daemon Princes.

As I tried to point out, the big bossman of Eidolon probably had other territories as well, and is not typical of Daemon Princes in terms of motivations. Most really are lazy bastards.

Lets not mention that, please. Other than to hope that it will be struck from the Imperial Record (i.e. decanonized).

We can only hope.

Perhaps. But the Imperium are not a bunch of retards, and they still don't have such ships.

Point.

You mentioned that with regards to the resources that Chaos commands. In relation to our discussion on their shipbuilding capabilities.

Technically, assuming the Eldar are correct, then Chaos really does command infinite resources, and their only limitations are the rate at which they can access them.

So: you are suggesting that the Daemon Princes could actually churn out fleets of ships like that if they wanted to? Seriously? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

You're misunderstanding me. 'Churn out'? Definitely not as they seem to take forever and a day to build. If every Daemon Prince got off his or her lazy ass, started being proactive and worked together in concert, the galaxy would probably fall a heck of a lot faster.

Of course, that's going to happen about the time we hit the forty second millenium and all the Orks get together for a big New Millenium Waaaagh!!. Hah.

We'll soon see.

Any minute now.

[Lord Zentei]

Major, as in "Black Crusade" major?

Ah, I misunderstood you. Ultimately, Leonatos' warfleet may have rivalled a Black Crusade in terms of size, though it would be unlikely to be on the same scale as the Gothic War, and certainly not the 13th.

Well, that's the rub. A CPK sized ship for a Gothic War scale enterprise I can accept. Less than that, and I start getting skeptical.

Not to the extent that it eclipses the capabilities of all the others. If Eidolon can pull of a wankship, a goodly number of others should be able to also. Not the same as Abbadon, who commands the fealty of a large number of Daemon Princes.

As I tried to point out, the big bossman of Eidolon probably had other territories as well, and is not typical of Daemon Princes in terms of motivations. Most really are lazy bastards.

To the extent of Abby could? But even with a up to a tenth of the EoT under the Lord of Eidolon's thumb Leonatos' ship would imply a potential dozen of the suckers every thousand years or so.

You mentioned that with regards to the resources that Chaos commands. In relation to our discussion on their shipbuilding capabilities.

Technically, assuming the Eldar are correct, then Chaos really does command infinite resources, and their only limitations are the rate at which they can access them.

GRRR: And the extent to which they can access them is the extent of the resources they possess! That's what is important. Otherwise, you could claim that the Imperium commands a million suns worth of power generation, since it controls a million star systems. Or that modern humans possess 6e24 kg of iron because we are sitting on a planet consisting largely of such.

So: you are suggesting that the Daemon Princes could actually churn out fleets of ships like that if they wanted to? Seriously? Or am I misunderstanding you here?

You're misunderstanding me. 'Churn out'? Definitely not as they seem to take forever and a day to build. If every Daemon Prince got off his or her lazy ass, started being proactive and worked together in concert, the galaxy would probably fall a heck of a lot faster.

I'll take that with a grain of salt given the extent to which the Chaos Gods hate and fear the Emperor.

Of course, that's going to happen about the time we hit the forty second millenium and all the Orks get together for a big New Millenium Waaaagh!!. Hah.

A damn Ork in disguise. You'll all fall to the Swordwind in the end! (Mwa ha ha ha!)

We'll soon see.

Any minute now.

Or we can have a mod punt it to OSF for prosterity.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, that's the rub. A CPK sized ship for a Gothic War scale enterprise I can accept. Less than that, and I start getting skeptical.

I honestly can't remember the size of the rest of Lenatos' fleet. A lot of it might have been pumped into his flagship, however.

To the extent of Abby could? But even with a up to a tenth of the EoT under his thumb Leonatos' ship would imply a potential dozen of the suckers every thousand years or so.

Doubtful.

GRRR: And the extent to which they can access them is the extent of the resources they possess! That's what is important. Otherwise, you could claim that the Imperium commands a million suns worth of power generation, since it controls a million star systems. Or that modern humans possess 6e24 kg of iron because we are sitting on a planet consisting largely of such.

But they're not going to run out, which is where the difference is at. They can also potentially alter energy directly into mass, thanks to the poorly defined but ridiculously control of reality they have inside the Warp.

I'll take that with a grain of salt given the extent to which the Chaos Gods hate and fear the Emperor.

The Chaos Gods always struck me as rather strange. Seriously, what has Perturabo done in the last ten thousand years? Or Magnus the Red? Get those lazy bastards off their backsides and make them do something. Anything, I don't care.

Angron did things right. He started a bigass war. Then he got punk'd and is brooding over it like the other Primarchs. Wankers.

A damn Ork in disguise. You'll all fall to the Swordwind in the end! (Mwa ha ha ha!)

Nah man, I'm with the side that's going to win. Eventually. In time. It might take a while, but we are going to win. Swear it on my bones.

Or we can have a mod punt it to OSF for prosterity.

Not yet dammit!

[Lord Zentei]

Well, that's the rub. A CPK sized ship for a Gothic War scale enterprise I can accept. Less than that, and I start getting skeptical.

I honestly can't remember the size of the rest of Lenatos' fleet. A lot of it might have been pumped into his flagship, however.

A thousand BBs worth, apparently. <sigh>

To the extent of Abby could? But even with a up to a tenth of the EoT under his thumb Leonatos' ship would imply a potential dozen of the suckers every thousand years or so.

Doubtful.

Indeed: but if it takes Eidolon a thousand years to build one, and they control 1/10th of the EoT's resources, that is the implication.

GRRR: And the extent to which they can access them is the extent of the resources they possess! That's what is important. Otherwise, you could claim that the Imperium commands a million suns worth of power generation, since it controls a million star systems. Or that modern humans possess 6e24 kg of iron because we are sitting on a planet consisting largely of such.

But they're not going to run out, which is where the difference is at. They can also potentially alter energy directly into mass, thanks to the poorly defined but ridiculously control of reality they have inside the Warp.

That's irrelevant with regards to shipbuilding rates. Besides, when the Material Universe dies, Chaos dies with it.

I'll take that with a grain of salt given the extent to which the Chaos Gods hate and fear the Emperor.

The Chaos Gods always struck me as rather strange. Seriously, what has Perturabo done in the last ten thousand years? Or Magnus the Red? Get those lazy bastards off their backsides and make them do something. Anything, I don't care.

Angron did things right. He started a bigass war. Then he got punk'd and is brooding over it like the other Primarchs. Wankers.

Quite so: though they might at least send minions to the realspace, even if they cannot go there there in person.

A damn Ork in disguise. You'll all fall to the Swordwind in the end! (Mwa ha ha ha!)

Nah man, I'm with the side that's going to win. Eventually. In time. It might take a while, but we are going to win. Swear it on my bones.

Orks FTW? Ho ho.

Or we can have a mod punt it to OSF for prosterity.

Not yet dammit!

What? Why not?

[Ford Prefect]

A thousand BBs worth, apparently. <le sigh>

Fixed for you. Though I must admit it does intially seem somewhat ridiculous, it's still only a big, lumbering target just waiting to be prayed upon if its supporting fleet isn't large enough.

Indeed: but if it takes Eidolon a thousand years to build one, and they control 1/10th of the EoT's resources, that is the implication.

A fair point, and it's probably even more dramatic than that. Scary, really.

That's irrelevant with regards to shipbuilding rates. Besides, when the Material Universe dies, Chaos dies with it.

Point.

Quite so: though they might at least send minions to the realspace, even if they cannot go there there in person.

There isn't enough Chaos Primarch ownage going on. Or in fact enough personal feats of utter badassitude, ala Abaddon's sundering of the Citadel of Kromarch, or Typhus' wiping out of a company of Imperial Guard. That sort of stuff is pretty damn cool.

Orks FTW? Ho ho.

Are you kidding? I hate the Orks. Fucking Old Ones. I'm with the side that will win. Definitely. Later.

What? Why not?

Soon, my friend, soon. I just have a need to have cause a thread in testing to reach four pages. This is probably my best example of debating ever (which isn't really saying much, on reflection, some of my points were very ordinary), but still.