Most common attacks

[Lord_Vader]

Oh my bad...yes I knew the 2 of them were different.

[DarkStar]

Look, DarkStar, you MUST admit that your volume for the Jem'Hadar ship is wrong. It is impossible for that ship to have that much volume.

No, mine is just fine. Wong's was wrong. The value I gave in the first post is a volume calculation based on his description, so quit trying to give me shit about it, fool. I quote:

"After foolishly assuming that a Stardock Alpha clip of the special effects of that episode was representing the total time of the battle (hence that silly "30 seconds" comment), he gives the Jem'Hadar fighter an estimated size and estimated mass. What he doesn't mention is that the density he uses for the Jem'Hadar fighter is 50 kg/m^3, or 5% of water's density! "

You have never even tried to defend that, indicating that you are conceeding the point, so go back and revise that.

I was pointing out the flaw on his page. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

[DarkStar]

Thanks for the help, Lord Vader, but I'm not sure how effective it will be. One of DarkStar's most consistent tactics is to make an argument and then attack rebuttals by reiterating his original argument without modification. Still, we try to keep him honest as much as we can.

The reason that happens is because so few of the attacks on my position are valid. You, for instance, have grossly misrepresented my arguments and behavior on numerous occasions, including this one.

Welcome to Stardestroyer.net. DarkStar is a Village Idiot for that reason.

SD.Net ... where poisoning the well of discourse is considered a valid tactic.

[Master of Ossus]

So, what about your VOLUME? You used the volume of a sphere that was very nearly as long as the Jem'Hadar fighter. Since, for your set of calculations, your volume is as important as your density (since, eventually, you calculated your mass from your volume), and it is CLEARLY wrong! Are you subscribing to some theory that "His estimates are wrong, so if mine are wrong, too, but they're wrong on the other side, then everyone'll be able to take an average and come to the right number?" DarkStar, you're being hypocritical. Even if Wong's numbers are WAY off, then your numbers still have to be accurate for me (and, I hope, others) to accept them. Fix your volume to be a lot more accurate, revise your estimates, and then form another conclusion based on your new estimates.

[Mr Bean]

Darkling pure and simple knows when he's beat
That makes him the best ST Debator on this board so far

Watch him Fight Wong now in the 8472 Debate, He retreates from postions when they become unteable, Sure he's guilty of a logic error or two but he knows his strengths and when to back down

More than can be said for the other 5/6 of ST Debators
And a certian Evil Ass Warsie

[Mr Bean]

I can't deside which to laugh at more, your endless logic flaws or your terrible anaolgyies

where poisoning the well of discourse is considered a valid tactic

Poisioning the well of Discoure

Intresting so you are in a clumsy way trying to say he is pre-dispoing people towards not liking you
Well friend no need to worry about that your posts do it well enough

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, he's actually good at avoiding being pinned down. You can beat Darkling 9 times without forcing him to quit the debate. On the other hand, Wong's offensive skills are unmatched. The great attacker meets the great defender/dodger. This should be a good one.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Look, DarkStar, you MUST admit that your volume for the Jem'Hadar ship is wrong. It is impossible for that ship to have that much volume.

No, mine is just fine. Wong's was wrong. The value I gave in the first post is a volume calculation based on his description, so quit trying to give me shit about it, fool. I quote:

"After foolishly assuming that a Stardock Alpha clip of the special effects of that episode was representing the total time of the battle (hence that silly "30 seconds" comment), he gives the Jem'Hadar fighter an estimated size and estimated mass. What he doesn't mention is that the density he uses for the Jem'Hadar fighter is 50 kg/m^3, or 5% of water's density! "

Can you say red herring fuckhead? He said your volume figure was wrong! Now you going talking about Mike's mass figures being "incorrect"

I was pointing out the flaw on his page. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

70 meter sphere. Nuff said.

[Master of Ossus]

I would have thought there would have been enough said about this, too, but he's still here, arguing with us! This guy has more lives than a cat with an afterlife, he just refuses to acknowledge evidence that he's been wrong.

[DarkStar]

So, what about your VOLUME? You used the volume of a sphere that was very nearly as long as the Jem'Hadar fighter. Since, for your set of calculations, your volume is as important as your density (since, eventually, you calculated your mass from your volume), and it is CLEARLY wrong! Are you subscribing to some theory that "His estimates are wrong, so if mine are wrong, too, but they're wrong on the other side, then everyone'll be able to take an average and come to the right number?"

Trying to argue rationally with you is like administering medicine to the dead.

Here, let's run through it one more time:

Wong says:

"...a Jem'Hadar fighter (which can be generously approximated as a 100 metre diameter, 25 metre high saucer) with a mass of perhaps 10,000 tons deliberately rammed the Odyssey at a velocity of roughly 600 m/s ..."

So, when I said:

"... he gives the Jem'Hadar fighter an estimated size and estimated mass. What he doesn't mention is that the density he uses for the Jem'Hadar fighter is 50 kg/m^3, or 5% of water's density!"

... I was obviously using his size and mass figures to prove my point. And I did not use the volume of a sphere, but of a cylinder... but even if he meant a tapering saucer (like this: <> ), his estimate would still only be lessened by about half.

Do you understand? Can you read this?

"English, motherfucker! Do you speak it?"
- Pulp Fiction

[DarkStar]

Can you say red herring fuckhead? He said your volume figure was wrong! Now you going talking about Mike's mass figures being "incorrect"

You haven't been paying attention, shit-lick. He is insisting that I created the figures out of my own imagination for what Wong used, when in fact they were Wong's to begin with.

I was pointing out the flaw on his page. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

70 meter sphere. Nuff said.

The asteroid was not a 70 meter sphere, and you're a fool to continue spouting that.

[Master of Ossus]

I was pointing out the flaw on his page. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

I was pointing out a flaw in the volume that you used. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

Look, DarkStar, no one is saying that you used the volume of a sphere. What we are saying is that the volume you used to calculate the KE of the Jem'Hadar fighter was equivalent to the volume of a very large sphere. Volumes are a form of measurement that can be taken for any three dimensional object. It is possible to make a cube, a sphere, and a cylinder with the same volumes. GAT was pointing out that the volume you used for the Jem'Hadar ship appeared to be that of a 70 meter sphere, shit-lick.

Why don't you ask Wong where he got his mass measurement for the Jem'Hadar fighter? That way we can figure out if it is reasonable or not.

BTW, his 100 meter long, 25 meter high cylinder was supposed to be nothing more than a rough estimate. He did not use that to calculate the mass of the fighter (as you did). Instead, he was showing us how big the ship that hit the Odyssey was. Since a Jem'Hadar fighter has nowhere NEAR the volume that he gave it (he even says that on the webpage), you cannot go back and say that he is not being generous enough for not giving the thing more mass. He STARTED with the mass, and then was explaining approximately how large the Jem'Hadar ship was, compared to the Odyssey. It had nothing to do with a volume calculation.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You haven't been paying attention, shit-lick. He is insisting that I created the figures out of my own imagination for what Wong used, when in fact they were Wong's to begin with.

Liar. He did a 100 by 25 meters. You did a ship having the volume equal to a 70 meter sphere.

The asteroid was not a 70 meter sphere, and you're a fool to continue spouting that.

What kind of moron are you? I'm not talking about the asteroid.

[Master of Ossus]

GAT: It appears we have underestimated DarkStar's stupidity. I think he still believes his calculations to be accurate! We are doomed! No one can break through his skull! He appears to be as dense as a star that has turned itself dark.

[DarkStar]

I was pointing out the flaw on his page. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

I was pointing out a flaw in the volume that you used. My point stands, and is in no need of revision.

I agree with you that Wong's value is incorrect. THAT IS WHY I USED IT WHILE DEMONSTRATING THE SILLINESS ON HIS PAGE.

Look, DarkStar, no one is saying that you used the volume of a sphere.

"You used the volume of a sphere that was very nearly as long as the Jem'Hadar fighter."
- Master of Ossus in the page immediately prior to this one

Oh, look, that's you!

What we are saying is that the volume you used to calculate the KE of the Jem'Hadar fighter was equivalent to the volume of a very large sphere.

Or a cylinder which fits the size parameters given by Wong.

Volumes are a form of measurement that can be taken for any three dimensional object. It is possible to make a cube, a sphere, and a cylinder with the same volumes. GAT was pointing out that the volume you used for the Jem'Hadar ship appeared to be that of a 70 meter sphere, shit-lick.

And, cunt, that isn't my problem, since I was pointing out the deficiencies in Wong's page. You are so blinded by stupidity that you insist on attacking me for the figures he gave.

Why don't you ask Wong where he got his mass measurement for the Jem'Hadar fighter? That way we can figure out if it is reasonable or not.

He already told us, you moron:

"Very generously, since 10,000 tons is already 4 times the DS9 TM's stated mass..."

BTW, his 100 meter long, 25 meter high cylinder was supposed to be nothing more than a rough estimate. He did not use that to calculate the mass of the fighter (as you did).

I didn't calculate the mass of the fighter with it, you fucking idiot. How many different ways can you mangle what I actually said?

Instead, he was showing us how big the ship that hit the Odyssey was. Since a Jem'Hadar fighter has nowhere NEAR the volume that he gave it (he even says that on the webpage)

Oh really, and where does that happen, hmm?

you cannot go back and say that he is not being generous enough for not giving the thing more mass.

I'm not asking for generosity, I'm asking for rationality.

He STARTED with the mass

...which he pulled out of his ASS!

[DarkStar]

Liar. He did a 100 by 25 meters. You did a ship having the volume equal to a 70 meter sphere.

Wong's description of the JH ship involved an approximation as a "100 metre diameter, 25 metre high saucer".

Volume of a cylinder 25 meters tall with 100 meter diameter:

pi x r^2 x h -> pi x 50^2 x 25 = 196349.5 m^3

Volume of a sphere of 70 meters diameter:

4/3 x pi x r^3 -> 4/3pi x 35^3 = 179594.38 m^3

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Here's the quote:


"

Really! Please let us know how you figured out this volume figure for a Jem'Hadar cockroach fighter. Since my mass figure was 10,000 tons and you claim this is just 50 kg/m^3, you are claiming that the volume of a Jem'Hadar cockroach is 200,000 cubic metres, which is equivalent to a 72m wide sphere! Anyone who looks at a spindly Jem'hadar cockroach knows that this is absolutely ridiculous. But by all means, enlighten us on your method of determining that a 100 metre long skinny, flat Jem'Hadar cockroach has the same volume as a 72m wide sphere"




So you're density is wrong for the Jem'Hadar bug

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Liar. He did a 100 by 25 meters. You did a ship having the volume equal to a 70 meter sphere.

Wong's description of the JH ship involved an approximation as a "100 metre diameter, 25 metre high saucer".

Volume of a cylinder 25 meters tall with 100 meter diameter:

pi x r^2 x h -> pi x 50^2 x 25 = 196349.5 m^3

Volume of a sphere of 70 meters diameter:

4/3 x pi x r^3 -> 4/3pi x 35^3 = 179594.38 m^3

Except it wasn't a cylinder!

[DarkStar]

So you're density is wrong for the Jem'Hadar bug

He disagreed with himself. That doesn't affect my density for the JH bug, just his.

[Master of Ossus]

Look, I'm not objecting to your DENSITY (except in a figurative sense). I am objecting to your VOLUME. Your volume for the Jem'Hadar ship is clearly wrong. Since you use that volume, combined with your density (which I am not objecting to, at the moment), to calculate your mass (which you then use to calculate KE), your MASS is also wrong, because your VOLUME clearly is.

I can't believe how long it's taken me to try to explain this to you and you STILL don't appear to get it.

[DarkStar]

Except it wasn't a cylinder!

It was his approximation. If he meant a tapered saucer, such as this: <>, like the Odyssey's saucer, then it won't help him too much, since it will roughly halve the volume. That will roughly double his density of the ship, and will make his estimate equal to a 57 meter diameter sphere.

[DarkStar]

Look, I'm not objecting to your DENSITY (except in a figurative sense). I am objecting to your VOLUME.

No, you're objecting to his volume. My volume for the JH fighter is, as I have already explained, based on a rectangle of 70 x 55 x 20, giving the ship a volume of about 77,000 m^3. I suggested that 15% of the ship might be heavy equipment and hull, and used iron's density to arrive at a ship's mass of 87,780 metric tons.

Your volume for the Jem'Hadar ship is clearly wrong.

No, because you're still arguing against Wong's density.

I can't believe how long it's taken me to try to explain this to you and you STILL don't appear to get it.

I can't believe how you still fail to understand that the volume and density I posted as being Wong's are, in fact, Wong's!

[Master of Ossus]

God DAMN IT, DumbShit, you corrected all of his other figures, you expect us to believe that the only reason you chose that number was because he generously gave that lousy estimate to show us how big the Odyssey and the Jem'Hadar fighter was. The number is still really bad. Fix it, and revise your estimates.

Essentially what you are saying is this:

Wong is hypocritical. His calculations are wrong because they are biased towards SW.

My calculations use my own figures whenever my figures are better for ST, but Mike Wong's crappy figures whenever they help ST. By hybridizing whatever is best for ST, I can show you all that the difference in this area between ships from both universes is considerably smaller than was initially claimed by Mike Wong's terrible figures (of which I used some).


Your argument makes no sense, DumbShit. Fix ALL of the numbers if you want to claim that your figures are accurate, do not selectively pick and choose which parts of Wong's figures you want to use.

BTW, during your calculations, you were not the LEAST bit clear about why you picked that volume.

[DarkStar]

God DAMN IT, DumbShit, you corrected all of his other figures, you expect us to believe that the only reason you chose that number was because he generously gave that lousy estimate to show us how big the Odyssey and the Jem'Hadar fighter was. The number is still really bad. Fix it, and revise your estimates.

What the hell are you talking about? Does the Clue Train not stop where you live?

I chose to use Wong's numbers for the purpose of demonstrating that they were ridiculous, and now you yell at me because they are ridiculous, and you say I need to change them. Do you not realize how stupid that is?

Essentially what you are saying is this:

Wong is hypocritical. His calculations are wrong because they are biased towards SW.

My calculations use my own figures whenever my figures are better for ST, but Mike Wong's crappy figures whenever they help ST. By hybridizing whatever is best for ST, I can show you all that the difference in this area between ships from both universes is considerably smaller than was initially claimed by Mike Wong's terrible figures (of which I used some).

I never used Wong's figures for my own estimates. I only used his figures when I was demonstrating how silly they were.

Your argument makes no sense, DumbShit. Fix ALL of the numbers if you want to claim that your figures are accurate, do not selectively pick and choose which parts of Wong's figures you want to use.

Hey, do you understand the concept of quoting? See how above I quoted you? I did that because your sentence above is stupid.

By the nature of your argument, you should now say that what I said (quoting you) is stupid, and attack me for it, even though I'm quoting you.

Make sense?

BTW, during your calculations, you were not the LEAST bit clear about why you picked that volume.

Bullshit. I explained when pointing out what density he used that I was using the mass and ship size he had given.