Why are we so enamored of the Japanese?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Do japanese pacifists, the kind who do not like the JDF spending money on more high tech weapons systems also deny the atrocities of world war 2?

I'm not entirely certain that japan is the only country guilty of world war 2 revisionism - China certainly has its own reasons to play it up, but Taiwan has always seemed much less antagonistic - and even Malaysian history textbooks have a slant that in the long run, the rise of japan in ww2 was good insofar as it gave the mat sallehs (malay slang for white man) a bloody nose and helped speed up our independence post war - they even talk about how japanese ingenuity and technological superiority helped crush the allies early on!

Mind, this was in a national malay-medium school - it's possible a Chinese medium school would be a lot less sympathetic.[/i]

Did you not read the "Some segments"? There are Japanese historians who oppose the use of the books, though they were met with death threats etc. and even a firebombing.

Taiwan's view of the Japanese occupation is a lot less biased because the Japanese developed the Taiwanese economy early on, whereas the Nationalist KMT came to Taiwan and indulged in some rampaging which led to the ethnic Taiwanese not liking the mainlanders too much.

Interesting that the Malaysian textbooks portrayed the Japanese in positive light, considering the Chinese led to the beaches to be shot at. But then again, Malay supremacist leanings are probably at work as well. In Singapore, the older generation do not hold fond memories of the Japanese occupation.

Well, the way it is used now. I am not sure how it was used hundreds of years ago, though the way words are used change with the passage of time.

Japanese has changed relatively little in structure, many of the Japanese kanji are identical to Chinese characters they originated from, even if the pronounciations might change slightly according to region. So I'm failing to see how the word would somehow magically be changed to be indicative of some modern mindset.

The words may be the same, but don't words acquire different meanings over time? Korean for example has words for that mean the same thing, but totally different usage context.

[General Zod]

The words may be the same, but don't words acquire different meanings over time? Korean for example has words for that mean the same thing, but totally different usage context.

I'm not seeing much of a point here except that you don't seem to have any idea of what you're talking about.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The words may be the same, but don't words acquire different meanings over time? Korean for example has words for that mean the same thing, but totally different usage context.

I'm not seeing much of a point here except that you don't seem to have any idea of what you're talking about.

My point is, how a word is used and the context of its use indicates the mindset.

[General Zod]

My point is, how a word is used and the context of its use indicates the mindset.

And you apparently don't know what you're talking about since so far you've demonstrated absolutely zero knowledge of the language in question beyond a single word that gets thrown about in pop culture constantly.

[AniThyng]

Did you not read the "Some segments"? There are Japanese historians who oppose the use of the books, though they were met with death threats etc. and even a firebombing.

Taiwan's view of the Japanese occupation is a lot less biased because the Japanese developed the Taiwanese economy early on, whereas the Nationalist KMT came to Taiwan and indulged in some rampaging which led to the ethnic Taiwanese not liking the mainlanders too much.

Interesting that the Malaysian textbooks portrayed the Japanese in positive light, considering the Chinese led to the beaches to be shot at. But then again, Malay supremacist leanings are probably at work as well. In Singapore, the older generation do not hold fond memories of the Japanese occupation.

Well I was more wondering if left-wingers in japan have an opposite view of the right wing nationalists regarding Japans role in WW2, or more of a "let's not get nuked again" attitude (as opposed to being actually apologetic).


I'd say the textbooks are quite ambiavalent about it - they do talk about the torture and touch on some of the atrocities and the economic hardship, but not a whole lot - nanking and things like the comfort women are not mentioned. The main thrust is really on how at the end of the war the british walked back in and now that we learned that they can be defeated, got the confidence to demand an end to colonial rule.

Certainly there were malays who actually welcomed the japanese, since the japanese took pains to actually "brefriend" the local rulers for thier own benefit, much like some of the soviet states invaded by nazi germany did. Better to be colonized by fellow asians then by white foreign devils, at any rate.

Well I do go out of my way to avoid watching japanese audio anime in the presence of my grandmother, though she's never actually discussed the war one way or another or her feelings regarding japanese...and Malays in Malaysia in general by the 1980's were far more willing to look to the east and Japan in particular for an economic and social model because for all the WW2 atrocities, they hate the white man more.

[Rye]

I think the Japanese tend to be really good with presentation; cool looking and wuirky uniforms, art forms, Bladerunner cities, cool looking violence in cartoons, kung fu films, etc, then there's always the stuff like in Kill Bill with the blossoms or snow in a garden, girly male sex symbols, it all looks very nice. That superficiality is often more impressive than the stories such settings actually tell so people imagine things being better than they are and go from there, I think.

As for catgirls, well, cats are slinky streamlined predators, it's just something for deviants, I guess, though those saying "if you like catgirls you have never had a real woman" style comments need to get stabbed in the face or something.

[Raw Shark]

My friend explained to me that this is very common in Japan as it shows that the aging male is still competative and masculine.

Anyone know if this is true or if she was snowing me?

Partial truth. It really happens, but not just in Japan. We call it the "Mid-Life Crisis."

On Topic: I can only "Me Too" those who have pointed out that the sheer volume of pop culture they pump out rivals only ours. Same substance, slightly different flavor. We're Coke, they're Pepsi.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I think the Japanese tend to be really good with presentation; cool looking and wuirky uniforms, art forms, Bladerunner cities, cool looking violence in cartoons, kung fu films, etc, then there's always the stuff like in Kill Bill with the blossoms or snow in a garden, girly male sex symbols, it all looks very nice. That superficiality is often more impressive than the stories such settings actually tell so people imagine things being better than they are and go from there, I think.

They seem to have a brand styling that is just generally different to the way we in the West would do it. They had a different transformation to industrialised nation than we did with varying other aspects of society so that shapes their art a lot too. Topless weathergirls? Yeah, can't see that working here.

As for catgirls, well, cats are slinky streamlined predators, it's just something for deviants, I guess, though those saying "if you like catgirls you have never had a real woman" style comments need to get stabbed in the face or something.

I hear people who like Star Wars are all virgins. True story.

[Dartzap]

Other than the Manga in the Waterstones increasing from half a shelf to two and a bit, I honestly haven't seen that much of a Japan-love in occurring over here. Terrestrial TV doesn't have much in the way of Animé as well, although I don't have $ky so I'm probably not seeing entire networks dedicated to the stuff.

Edit: Actually, I tell a lie, there was that Johnny Ross series. Which was more of a warning than an endorsement, heh.

[brianeyci]

@brianeyci:
It's pretty amusing that most asians have no problem recognizing racial discrimination for what it is when they are overseas but forget about it when they are the ones doing it at home.

That said, I suppose you have observed that there is a tendency for asian students in western universities to cluster together and interact only with themselves, no?

Only if they are not fully integrated. If they are "proud" of their culture and don't speak English as their first language or more importantly preferred language, then they'll tend to cluster.

The Mikes and people like him don't hang around just asian people. And Mikes are more common than you think: they're hard to see because they look the same but they are there.

[AniThyng]

Only if they are not fully integrated. If they are "proud" of their culture and don't speak English as their first language or more importantly preferred language, then they'll tend to cluster.

The Mikes and people like him don't hang around just asian people. And Mikes are more common than you think: they're hard to see because they look the same but they are there.

Well, I meant Asian students from Asia as opposed to ABC/CBC like Mike (Wong).

That is actually also reflective of a totally different mindset on "integration" and "melting pot" vis a vis Asia and the West - the American ideal is for everyone that comes to america is an american first, hyphenated-american second, and integration basically means everyone is part of the american society and american culture as a whole.

In my country - it's more of a...hmm...it's not about integration at all but about..co-existance? Certainly when abroad we are all Malaysians 1st, but at home you are Malaysian Chinese or Malaysian Indian or Malay, all emphasis on the ethnicity 1st, and by and large people have a tendency to prefer to mingle with thier own* - and even in the ideal case for national unity, all 3 would still maintain thier respective *distinct* cultural roots and languages and religions with an overarching "Malaysian" culture - it is very very much different from the American idea of the melting pot IMO


*of course this is vastly oversimplifying a complex social topic, but I'm using it to highlight the contrast between the ideals of multiecthnic asian societies and multiethnic western ones.

*Edit: Thailand and the philipines however seem to have done the integration thing much better with their local chinese population, admittedly - with the local chinese adopting thai/philipino style names and with much more intermarriage(of course, Islam is not a factor in those countries - excepting southern thailand and Moro). Contrast too with Indonesia, which went with brutal and repressive state forced integration - that sure as hell didn't work in 1998 when indonesians went on an orgy of rape and looting of chinese owned businesses and residents.

It's no surprise to me that Japan in it's monolithic country is so appearently xenophobic to westerners. And lord knows why they are so hostile to chinese when they basically owe so much of thier culture to them. Must be that old saying about the ones you hate the most being the ones most like you.

It also says a lot about cultural conditioning I suppose that despite using english as my 1st language (as opposed to some dialect of chinese or malay) and being well aware of the problems with my culture and generally well exposed to western thought and cultural export, I am still somewhat offended on a base level by Darth Raptor's assertion that western culture is better

[Sidewinder]

What's most annoying is how nerdy fanboys / girls will go ape-shit over J-Pop and yet despise American pop.

As if J-Pop was any less fake, whiny, and cloying.

The fact that the fanboys/girls are unlikely to understand Japanese, means that they can't tell how fake, whiny, and cloying J-Pop is.

[AniThyng]

What's most annoying is how nerdy fanboys / girls will go ape-shit over J-Pop and yet despise American pop.

As if J-Pop was any less fake, whiny, and cloying.

The fact that the fanboys/girls are unlikely to understand Japanese, means that they can't tell how fake, whiny, and cloying J-Pop is.

Well they can read the karaoke on the fansubs

I'm actually glad I don't understand japanese, because I like the *sound* of particular J-Pop and anime OP/ED and regularly listen to them, but by god, the lyrics.......................i'd probably stop listening if I ever got enough japanese to translate them mentally on the fly.

[Sidewinder]

Just asking all the taiwanese here, is japan accepting towards taiwan?

If you remember the dispute over ownership of an island that was claimed by China, Japan, and Taiwan, HELL NO!

Just a side note, I HAVE been mistaken as a japanese before...

I'm Chinese, and I've been mistaken for a Korean several times. Hell, I once mistook Koreans for Chinese.

[Ghost Rider]

Gone over there too many fucking times. It has this oddball backwardness as a country with immense packed cities and countryside that appears out of the 18-19th century....with a computer as their only piece of electrical gear.

That and still keeping contact with people still living there? It tends to dull the experience moreso.

The people are little weird, but then again that can be said of anywhere. The tourists in DC are some of the funnier given they tend to roam in packs at times.

[SAMAS]

Specifically, the U.S., but other countries are just as bad.

Of course, I'm talking about Anime, Ninjas, the OMFG I WISH THEY WOULD RELEASE ULTRAFIGHT COMBO POWER DRAGON 7 IN THE US crowd, Otaku, Manga, and anime. Also anime. Catgirls. What the hell?

When did it happen and why does it persist? Maybe it's just the circles that I move in that I'm hyper exposed to this..err...phenomenon, but I mean...why?

Exactly how does this constitute a "we"?

[ray245]

I'm Chinese, and I've been mistaken for a Korean several times. Hell, I once mistook Koreans for Chinese.

Usually it is easier for asian to tell the different eastern asian race apart as compared to caucasian.

And I can't tell a french, german apart from their lanuage and accent.

[General Zod]

Usually it is easier for asian to tell the different eastern asian race apart as compared to caucasian.

And I can't tell a french, german apart from their lanuage and accent.

I suppose it depends on which ethnic groups you have the most exposure to and whether or not there's any other backgrounds mixed in them. I can generally tell a Chinese and Japanese person apart just by appearances, not so much with Korean and Vietnamese/Thai, etc.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

My point is, how a word is used and the context of its use indicates the mindset.

And you apparently don't know what you're talking about since so far you've demonstrated absolutely zero knowledge of the language in question beyond a single word that gets thrown about in pop culture constantly.

Alright. I probably was talking out of my ass again. Conceded.

I'd say the textbooks are quite ambiavalent about it - they do talk about the torture and touch on some of the atrocities and the economic hardship, but not a whole lot - nanking and things like the comfort women are not mentioned. The main thrust is really on how at the end of the war the british walked back in and now that we learned that they can be defeated, got the confidence to demand an end to colonial rule.

Certainly there were malays who actually welcomed the japanese, since the japanese took pains to actually "brefriend" the local rulers for thier own benefit, much like some of the soviet states invaded by nazi germany did. Better to be colonized by fellow asians then by white foreign devils, at any rate.

Well I do go out of my way to avoid watching japanese audio anime in the presence of my grandmother, though she's never actually discussed the war one way or another or her feelings regarding japanese...and Malays in Malaysia in general by the 1980's were far more willing to look to the east and Japan in particular for an economic and social model because for all the WW2 atrocities, they hate the white man more.

That's interesting. But I guess, the problem is, one side was pretty brutalised compared to the other. I doubt you will find similar sentiments in the Philippines, as they actually welcomed the Americans back if I recall.

Some of this "confidence" I read about is also pandered about in our textbooks, as a shining example of why we should be independent (personally, poppycock in my opinion. We can't defend ourselves against a regional power like China). But, it's just one of those Nationalist stuff that gets thrown about.

[Broomstick]

That is actually also reflective of a totally different mindset on "integration" and "melting pot" vis a vis Asia and the West - the American ideal is for everyone that comes to america is an american first, hyphenated-american second, and integration basically means everyone is part of the american society and american culture as a whole.

In my country - it's more of a...hmm...it's not about integration at all but about..co-existance? Certainly when abroad we are all Malaysians 1st, but at home you are Malaysian Chinese or Malaysian Indian or Malay, all emphasis on the ethnicity 1st, and by and large people have a tendency to prefer to mingle with thier own* - and even in the ideal case for national unity, all 3 would still maintain thier respective *distinct* cultural roots and languages and religions with an overarching "Malaysian" culture - it is very very much different from the American idea of the melting pot IMO

Keep in mind there is a difference between the American ideal and the American reality. The US retains some distinctive ethnic enclaves, both in the big city and in rural areas.

It's no surprise to me that Japan in it's monolithic country is so appearently xenophobic to westerners.

Japan is not apparently xenophobic - it IS xenophobic. Not to the point of being unable to deal with non-Japanese but Japan really is by and for ethnic Japanese born in Japan and no others need apply. Which is how you get situations like people of Korean descent who are 3rd generation living in Japan who are not and never will be permitted to be citizens of Japan. I went to college with a woman who was half-Japanese half European born in Japan who was a stateless person, as she was not Japanese enough to be a citizen. Her relatives had sent her to the US for schooling with the intention that she live here long enough to become a US citizen, that is, a citizen of some country.

And lord knows why they are so hostile to chinese when they basically owe so much of thier culture to them. Must be that old saying about the ones you hate the most being the ones most like you.

Actually, it's the Koreans that the Japanese well and truly loathe - and they'd rather die than admit it (on either side) but those two groups are probably more closely related to each other than anyone else.

Why the fear and loathing and hatred? Several thousand years of one or another party attempting to invade, loot, and subdue the others I would imagine.

It also says a lot about cultural conditioning I suppose that despite using english as my 1st language (as opposed to some dialect of chinese or malay) and being well aware of the problems with my culture and generally well exposed to western thought and cultural export, I am still somewhat offended on a base level by Darth Raptor's assertion that western culture is better

Despite being raised in said western culture (and being fond of most of it myself) I have to say that their statements struck me as ethnocentric at best, and a potential slap in the face to others

[FSTargetDrone]

Anime.

I've yet to see any Anime that holds my attention other than Cowboy Bebop. I actually just forced myself to sit through a HD version of Akira on Comcast's On Demand and it was a tortuous affair. Bor-ring.

Ninjas

I don't find ninjas any more or less interesting than any other type of historical militaristic elements of society.

Otaku

If I'm at all obsessive, it isn't about anything specifically Japanese.

Manga

Never read one.

Catgirls

If it's not a living human female over 18 years of age wearing a catsuit, I'm not interested. Little ears in the hair do nothing for me. Frankly, depictions of humans with non-human animal features (fur, tails, weird hybrids) have absolutely zero appeal to me in any way shape or form.

Anyway, I generally find the whole huge-eye and enormous mouth thing in anime an irritant. But, eh.

[Redleader34]

I like them, because, they make things that honestly last long. The first car my family had, an old 1990 toyota camery stayed alive, for 14 years, until it die=d, and was sent to the great beyond. My nintedo 64, and games all stayed alive, and still work now. hell, my Gameboy pocket still works even now. Their consumer goods are second to none. Their animation was a break from the gross out shows that my freinds liked, to this action fighting orentend world. Then, there was this show called Gundam. Japan is a place where good products seem to come, in my mind.

[Ma Deuce]

I like them, because, they make things that honestly last long. The first car my family had, an old 1990 toyota camery stayed alive, for 14 years, until it die=d, and was sent to the great beyond.

I'm frankly not as impressed at the long-term durability of Japanese cars as some seem to be; Oh, the powertrains hold up fine, but the bodies seem to rust out long before the powertrain goes (especially in wintery climates, where the road salt eats them alive), and once the body goes, the car is done for: This is a problem that Toyota and Honda didn't nail till the mid-late '90s. Around here I rarely see Japanese cars from the early '90s and before (I see a lot more American and European cars from that era), and many of the ones I do see have horrendous body rust. I'll pit the durability of my '88 Mercedes against any Japanese car of that era, any day of the week.

[lance]

Weren't we also enamored by the South after the American Civil War? Maybe we just like to beat the shit out of culteres then worship them.

[Lagmonster]

I like certain Japanese products, but I don't have any particular fascination with the culture. In fact, I find Japanese culture far too weird to have any affection for, and I find the hyperactive style of anime sometimes makes me nauseous, in an actual physical sense as well as an artistic sense.