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Motion to move the discussion on Nazis and criminal justice in Hell to a new thread.

I think its a great discussion so far, but anything involving Nazis tends to get long and meandering, if and when it doesn't spiral into nonsense.

Opinions?

Uncluttered wrote:Motion to move the discussion on Nazis and criminal justice in Hell to a new thread.

I think its a great discussion so far, but anything involving Nazis tends to get long and meandering, if and when it doesn't spiral into nonsense.

Opinions?

Being a newbie, I doubt my opinion carries more weight than the Higgs boson, but I have no objection to moving discussion over what to do about second-life Nazis to another thread.

Stuart wrote:

R011 wrote: Same rib joint Fancy took Sipowicz?

*Confused Blink*

Sorry, I thought it was a shout-out to a very good TV show from the 1990's. That phrase was a almost word-by-word quote from an episode of NYPD Blue. Lt. Fancy, an African-American, was giving Detective Sipowicz, a fellow with somewhat unenlightened opinions on race, a little lesson on race relations by taking him to a rib joint for a meal.

R011 wrote: Sorry, I thought it was a shout-out to a very good TV show from the 1990's. That phrase was a almost word-by-word quote from an episode of NYPD Blue. Lt. Fancy, an African-American, was giving Detective Sipowicz, a fellow with somewhat unenlightened opinions on race, a little lesson on race relations by taking him to a rib joint for a meal.

Ahhh, I see now. My significant other at the time was West Indian (3/4 black, 1/4 Chinese). Very similar; I think it's a semi-standard 'this is how we feel' lesson. I wonder if it was picked up from LAPD Blue or whether the series picked it up from life.

I still hope Michael ends up being the tiny splash that follows Yahweh into the lake and Lemuel is the one that does it. I know, I know. The HEA may decide it requires Michael to continue existing as leader of Heaven just to ensure that there isn't a huge civil war up there and Abigor was made a leader despite the fact that he's ALSO guilty of millenia of warcrimes. That said, justice would see Michael at the end of length of hemp for his crimes.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I still hope Michael ends up being the tiny splash that follows Yahweh into the lake and Lemuel is the one that does it. I know, I know. The HEA may decide it requires Michael to continue existing as leader of Heaven just to ensure that there isn't a huge civil war up there and Abigor was made a leader despite the fact that he's ALSO guilty of millenia of warcrimes. That said, justice would see Michael at the end of length of hemp for his crimes.

I agree. It was one thing to use Abigor as a puppet ruler. He surrendered after the HEA kicked his ass so thoroughly that Satan ordered him to gather his family and die under the human guns. Instead, Abigor defected and cooperated with us. I think that leaving Michael in charge would be like letting Himmler rule an unpartitioned Germany because he whacked Hitler and sued for peace. Michael has been Yah-Yah's right hand man the whole time. He should be made to answer for having aided and abetted Yahweh's tyranny.

And we will. Once we can find a alternate replacement, Michael's in for a lengthy trial. Unfortunately, he strikes me as the type who's planned for this, and has probably ensured that we need him to be in power in order to prevent any rebellion from the Second Lifers and the Angels.

What ever the first concert is it will give the name "Live at Red Rocks" a whole new meaning.

Eddie Van Helsing wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:I still hope Michael ends up being the tiny splash that follows Yahweh into the lake and Lemuel is the one that does it. I know, I know. The HEA may decide it requires Michael to continue existing as leader of Heaven just to ensure that there isn't a huge civil war up there and Abigor was made a leader despite the fact that he's ALSO guilty of millenia of warcrimes. That said, justice would see Michael at the end of length of hemp for his crimes.

I agree. It was one thing to use Abigor as a puppet ruler. He surrendered after the HEA kicked his ass so thoroughly that Satan ordered him to gather his family and die under the human guns. Instead, Abigor defected and cooperated with us. I think that leaving Michael in charge would be like letting Himmler rule an unpartitioned Germany because he whacked Hitler and sued for peace. Michael has been Yah-Yah's right hand man the whole time. He should be made to answer for having aided and abetted Yahweh's tyranny.

I agree on this. We know that the transformation of Michael is deeper than the sheer fear that pushed Himmler to sue for a desperate peace, but as far as the HEA is concerned, Michael is the exact same thing. I would guess he must be subject to some atrocious war payment plan, and to make anmends of sorts with both baldricks and humans. Also, to assume the legal obligations of the previous administration, the first and foremost economic consequence of which is to respond to the reparations due to the United States, as ruled in the legal action interceded after the storms, if I remember correctly.

Now, there is a big, big problem here. Justice in Nuremberg fashion can`t be carried out at the moment, for the reasons we already discussed. however, SOMEONE needs to go.
angels need some scape goats, and if Michael calculations is to have Yahwe take ALL the guilt alone, he has another thing coming. No one would buy that. So I guess there will be a top secret meeting, with a lot of angels names written in ballots, and a specially grim version of the russian roulette (and Putin taking out the ballots ). Those who get picked, face trials which, given the setting and background of the story, will most likely end in death.

It would be easier to pick the biggest criminals... except that such a group includes, and its not limited to, the Stoners, Lemuel and their respective hosts... Not possible.

Maybe Michael can turn another page in his devious plan and toss some preselected conspirators in. Or maybe he kept Yahwe`s supporters hidden and mad, but alive, for this very reason. I believe there is at least one chayot not accounted for?

On the nazi stuff:
@Stuart: yes, I remember the one the israelis took after the fall of tartarus. But it was more a reflex action of the troops rather than HEA or Yamantau (which didn`t exist at the time) orders.
I meant ordered action, such as retrials, or something.

@Uncluttered: Motion seconded. This is interesting, but have the potential to go merry-go-round for a couple dozen pages more without resolution. And some very interesting points about the nature of crime and punishment (not the book, pun unintended ) have been raised.

Do we have official confirmation that the UN is dead in this scenario? It`s pretty much useless now...

darksoul wrote:Do we have official confirmation that the UN is dead in this scenario? It`s pretty much useless now...

I wouldn't say the UN is dead, but perhaps it has been relegated to its original purpose: to provide a forum where nations can resolve their difference through diplomacy instead of resorting to war. That original purpose hasn't been particularly relevant to the plot of Pantheocide thus far, but the story isn't over yet, and there's still The Lords of War. The HEA will have enough trouble managing the occupations of Heaven and Hell. I don't think it can take over the peacekeeping functions of the UN without compromising its original mission.

Ascaloth wrote:Which raises the question; if the demons' "sausages" are supposed to be barbed (as Jade Kim found out the hard way), how are they supposed to....you know....

Not sure if this is what Stuart was going for, but there are several species out there with a barbed phallus. Example: domestic cats have a series of spines on them. When the male is done and pulls out the scratching induces ovulation. Nature has some crazy forms. Don't even ask about the insects. Brain Bleach.

Stuart - I recognize that the best is the enemy of the good, and that non-developed projects were cut from spending. Nonetheless I have to ask: Will we be seeing any of the airships in currently in development as surveillance vehicles?

kulervo wrote:Not sure if this is what Stuart was going for, but there are several species out there with a barbed phallus. Example: domestic cats have a series of spines on them. When the male is done and pulls out the scratching induces ovulation. Nature has some crazy forms. Don't even ask about the insects. Brain Bleach.

Never mind the insects. Check out spotted hyenas. Imagine giving birth through a penis.

I'm against all the "let's put Michael on trial and install someone more palatable" business. Whatever view you take of his exceedingly dubious morality... he's a human-o-phile. He likes modern western culture, and what he wants is to import parts of it while keeping things peaceful and stable. He's someone, in short, that we can do business with.

Whoever replaces him, should he get ousted, may very well not be. Also, the consequent power-struggle may well generate one truly impossible quagmire.

Also the comparison to Himmler is a tad unfair... Stauffenberg would be a slightly better analogy, excepting that Michael was successful. On the whole, there's no direct analogy whom I can think of, but there has been a long history of accepting vaguely unpalatable new administrations who've taken power people we really didn't like.

Finally, I'm also against demanding reparations. We don't want to stir up billions of religious fanatics more than they have been already, nor do we need a second war against an embittered and technologically upgraded heaven.

Eddie Van Helsing wrote:I think that leaving Michael in charge would be like letting Himmler rule an unpartitioned Germany because he whacked Hitler and sued for peace. Michael has been Yah-Yah's right hand man the whole time. He should be made to answer for having aided and abetted Yahweh's tyranny.

Perhaps I'm too cynical (or perhaps you're not cynical enough) but I have a feeling if that had happened, it very well might have happened that way. Maybe not a completely unoccupied, unpartitioned germany, but leaving him as the technical leader but with his decisions subject to allied approval, I can see that.

And Stuart has had Michael set things up fairly cleverly -- every attack they can directly tie him to was on a military target. The non-military targets they've been able to tie to an Archangel were, if I recall correctly, the nuking of Tel Aviv and (attempted) of a half-dozen other cities, and that was known to be Azrael, who I think is dead, and Uriel who is definitely dead. We generally consider attacking military targets to be a legitimate practice during war. He's also managed to blame the concentration camp (which, to be fair, he didn't realize how brutal it was, though he could probably have guessed what Belial would get up to if he hadn't been too busy to spare more than a moment's thought to it) on Yahweh and Belial fairly neatly.

What's more, he's presented the HEA with a fait accompli -- he handed Heaven to them on a silver platter. It's not that difficult to imagine them accepting his positioning as "Heaven's Abigor" in order to avoid additional conflict, especially when he's already doing things, like replacing Yahweh's despotism with a somewhat republican-style government (though one that's still somewhat theoretical) that could be made to fit into an ideal of a representative democracy.

Though on that note, I wonder how putting in voting rights for 2nd-lifers would go over... something for LOW I guess?

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Stuart actually designed the Baldricks to emulate hyenas sexuality
I mean, we don't really see much of the females of the species...I seem to recall one or two mentions, but nothing about what they looked like

wickeddyno wrote:Perhaps I'm too cynical (or perhaps you're not cynical enough) but I have a feeling if that had happened, it very well might have happened that way. Maybe not a completely unoccupied, unpartitioned germany, but leaving him as the technical leader but with his decisions subject to allied approval, I can see that.

No, I think you're right. If the Allies didn't know about the Holocaust, and Himmler had sued for peace after killing Hitler and taking over the Third Reich, it's entirely plausible that they might have left the Nazis in power under Himmler and accepted Germany's surrender. It would allow the US to focus on Japan, after all.

Ruadhan2300 wrote:It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Stuart actually designed the Baldricks to emulate hyenas sexuality

Actually, I hope he didn't put that much thought into demon sexuality. In fact, I apologize for mentioning the hyenas in the first place.

There are a number of spiny penises in the animal kingdom, including a number of monkey species, IIRC. There was a diagram in one of my college textbooks on animal behavior of various really freaky penises in different species. It's thought that they're an evolutionary response to promiscuity - make the first round of sex painful and damaging to the female so she's not inclined to do it again, thus ensuring that the first male is the father of the offspring. This is all from memory though because I don't have that book on hand so I may be a bit off.

As for baldricks? We are talking about a situation where there may have been a lot of selective breeding and genetic alterations and "god did it" could be a legitimate answer. It could be that it happened because someone was feeling like being the multiverse's biggest jerk one day.


This all being said, I got a PM about some possible formatting issues with this thread getting too big. If you're having any, please PM me and let me know. I may need to lock this thread and start a new one if it's causing problems.

By the way, for the threads on the third book, I will be locking each thread at fifty pages and starting a new one. I'll post reminders again when it happens.

Absolutely. Ape pizzles increase in length with promiscuity. Which is why the non-promiscuous Gorilla is shorter than the chimpanzee despite the Gorilla being larger. Other species take other approaches, but generally a monogamous species will be the most boring.

There are pizzles (technical term for non-human phallus) which function as sponges, spoons, barbs, and lots of variations. The goal is two fold -
1. Impregnate this female
2. Make certain no one else does.
So pizzle design will vary depending on strategies. Some practice traumatic insemination which pierces the female and injects directly into the body. (I can't say womb because this is usually insects). Some try to remove prior ejaculate. Some ejaculate forms a plug to cap the ... orifice. Hell the elephants pizzle is about as mobile as it's trunk in order to reach and coordinate.

Mayabird wrote:By the way, for the threads on the third book, I will be locking each thread at fifty pages and starting a new one. I'll post reminders again when it happens.

So, we're going to have at least 7 threads for LoW? Daaang.

Eddie Van Helsing wrote: Never mind the insects. Check out spotted hyenas. Imagine giving birth through a penis.

Believe me, insects are worse. Toxic semen: check. An evolutionary race to better rape females: check. Chastity belts: check. Weird penises to take away other's male's semen: check. Making a hole trough the exoskeleton to fertilize the female: check.
Really, whatever perversion you can think of, insects have been doing it for millenia.

Mayabird wrote:There are a number of spiny penises in the animal kingdom, including a number of monkey species, IIRC. There was a diagram in one of my college textbooks on animal behavior of various really freaky penises in different species. It's thought that they're an evolutionary response to promiscuity - make the first round of sex painful and damaging to the female so she's not inclined to do it again, thus ensuring that the first male is the father of the offspring. This is all from memory though because I don't have that book on hand so I may be a bit off.

Yeah. Actually, the human penis is specially fascinating (no pun intended). Not only is it comparative bigger than most penises. The head is specially designed to take other's male semen out from the vagina.

The damaging the female bit, well, is not that they WANT to hurt the female, is that they don't care. Most aggressive behaviors give the male the maximum fitness, even if it decreases the female's future opportunities to reproduce. Drosophila's toxic semen is the perfect example, it kills competing sperms, making sure that the male has more offspring, if it also kills the female... though luck.

There is a little of that conduct in barbed penises (add snakes and insects to the list). They help to get better hold and... errr... stimulation of the female. And who knows, maybe demons are more resistant, or masochists, or something like that.

Deebles wrote:I'm against all the "let's put Michael on trial and install someone more palatable" business. Whatever view you take of his exceedingly dubious morality... he's a human-o-phile. He likes modern western culture, and what he wants is to import parts of it while keeping things peaceful and stable. He's someone, in short, that we can do business with.

Whoever replaces him, should he get ousted, may very well not be. Also, the consequent power-struggle may well generate one truly impossible quagmire.

Also the comparison to Himmler is a tad unfair... Stauffenberg would be a slightly better analogy, excepting that Michael was successful. On the whole, there's no direct analogy whom I can think of, but there has been a long history of accepting vaguely unpalatable new administrations who've taken power people we really didn't like.

Finally, I'm also against demanding reparations. We don't want to stir up billions of religious fanatics more than they have been already, nor do we need a second war against an embittered and technologically upgraded heaven.

you are right, actually stauffenberg is far more precise an analogy.

I`m not quite sure I follow with the religious fanatics bit. What fanatics are these? the Jellies and the second lifers in Heavens? The latter of which I`m on the verge to label traitors, as unfair as it is. if I were a soldier in Heaven and one of those guys as much as try to throw a rock at me, I would perform an anatomical experiment on him: Cut all members with machine gun fire and expect them to grow back.

Eddie Van Helsing wrote:

wickeddyno wrote:Perhaps I'm too cynical (or perhaps you're not cynical enough) but I have a feeling if that had happened, it very well might have happened that way. Maybe not a completely unoccupied, unpartitioned germany, but leaving him as the technical leader but with his decisions subject to allied approval, I can see that.

No, I think you're right. If the Allies didn't know about the Holocaust, and Himmler had sued for peace after killing Hitler and taking over the Third Reich, it's entirely plausible that they might have left the Nazis in power under Himmler and accepted Germany's surrender. It would allow the US to focus on Japan, after all.

not so sure about the Russians, though. After Stalingrad, there was no stopping them. Hell, they stopped because the Americans were ahead and there was a river between them. Otherwise they would have painted the Eiffel tower red.

i don`t know about the value of Michael to the HEA in the long run, but I refuse to believe we will let him go. So acepting his authority now is convenient, yes. Choices are few and grim. But forgiving him? Not quite. Maybe we can force a democratic system with 40 years cycles of government, no reelection (or one) and write the constitution accounting for the possibility to judge past crimes if they were commited under Yahwe, or something.
Or maybe we can keep him as the head of a provisional junta, in charge of organizing elections, and once that`s finished, then we can start with war trials, which of course would take him down. Of course, that crashes on the basis that Michael is the most popular, feared and respected angel in the whole City
Yeah... he played his game superbly.

That also depends on who's doing the prosecuting. I imagine that Israelis would have no trouble resentencing every single one of the Nazis executed by the Nuremberg court if they found them.

On the other hand, those are the "famous ones" that were supposed to be excluded from the question...

if I were a soldier in Heaven and one of those guys as much as try to throw a rock at me, I would perform an anatomical experiment on him: Cut all members with machine gun fire and expect them to grow back.

And then become a perpetual Petraeus lecture point on how the Heaven insurgency got started, even before the shitcanning.

In my mind, "never-born" was a way of mocking angelic "sinlessness" by making it a dig at their low fertility relative to the demonic birthrate, I figure it makes sense as many generations of daemons would encounter the same angels over and over. No idea if any of that was what was intended.