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Did they minimize the defeat? Leia and Han are nothing but mooks in Jedi. If they died on Bespin there is no major roll that goes unfilled because they have to be the ones to fill. It. If Luke doesn't go to Bespin he is never in danger in the first place and gets another year of training snd maybe pulls off the same thing some other way.

That is one of my biggest gripes about the OT. Leia is basically a character without a unique roll after ANH (after the first half of ANH actually). Expert politician and behind the scenes power manipulator becomes damsel in distress/random blaster shooter as the plot requires. The same happens to Han in ROTJ. Worldy back room dealer and pilot becomes the (good guy) muscle. These changes work for the plot, but by diminishing the characters.

Grumman wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way.
...
And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading.

Whether it is or not, it's also a rant about how the movie is weaker for refusing to let Finn's good deed be a good thing. Having Finn help Rey even the odds against opponents who outnumber and outmuscle her makes Finn and Rey better characters. Being capable of accepting a genuine offer of help is strength, not weakness.

Which one, the one where Finn doesn't get there in time because she's able to fight? Or did I miss something else?

Gaidin wrote:

Grumman wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way.
...
And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading.

Whether it is or not, it's also a rant about how the movie is weaker for refusing to let Finn's good deed be a good thing. Having Finn help Rey even the odds against opponents who outnumber and outmuscle her makes Finn and Rey better characters. Being capable of accepting a genuine offer of help is strength, not weakness.

Which one, the one where Finn doesn't get there in time because she's able to fight? Or did I miss something else?

Exactly! And Rey also kicks their asses and Finn actually runs from her first and then Rey knocks him down with her staff.

Patroklos wrote:Did they minimize the defeat? Leia and Han are nothing but mooks in Jedi. If they died on Bespin there is no major roll that goes unfilled because they have to be the ones to fill. It. If Luke doesn't go to Bespin he is never in danger in the first place and gets another year of training.

Even if you dismiss the inherent value of allowing Lando, Leia, Chewbacca and C-3PO to not be recaptured by the evil empire who had just been torturing at least one of them, C-3PO helped secure the aid of the Ewoks, Chewbacca got them the AT-ST they needed to get them back into the shield bunker after the Empire's trap was sprung, Lando and the Millenium Falcon were at the tip of the spear that destroyed the Death Star's reactor, and Luke learned that Vader was his father before he was brought before the Emperor, and giving him that time to process the revelation may have contributed to his success in using that connection to turn Vader to the Light Side instead of Vader using it to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Gaidin wrote:Which one, the one where Finn doesn't get there in time because she's able to fight?

Yes, that one. In this alternative scene you would still have Rey winning a fight while outnumbered 2 to 3, but Finn would be a man who did the right thing and achieved something of value, and Rey would be a woman who can appreciate a good Samaritan stepping in to help her win an unfair fight.

Grumman wrote: Even if you dismiss the inherent value of allowing Lando, Leia, Chewbacca and C-3PO to not be recaptured by the evil empire who had just been torturing at least one of them, C-3PO helped secure the aid of the Ewoks, Chewbacca got them the AT-ST they needed to get them back into the shield bunker after the Empire's trap was sprung, Lando and the Millenium Falcon were at the tip of the spear that destroyed the Death Star's reactor, and Luke learned that Vader was his father before he was brought before the Emperor, and giving him that time to process the revelation may have contributed to his success in using that connection to turn Vader to the Light Side instead of Vader using it to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Those people end up at ROTJ no matter what Luke does. Luke doesn't do a damn thing to help his friends, they escape without him (Han has already been frozen before Luke gets there and is taken by Fett the same as before). LANDO is the one who springs them, all of them sans Han escaped on their own only faster this time because there is no need to delay to rescue Luke.

Everything is exactly the same with the exception of the Father reveal. I didn't say anything about Lando who will still be there, and you told me how irreplaceable C3PO and Chewie (not really anyone can do what Chewie did) are, not Leia or Han.

And does Yoda actually SAY the reason he shouldn't leave is because friends are bad, or are you just channeling the BS prequal mythos? Because it always seemed to me he was saying his training was worth their deaths because it is the only way to defeat the Emperor (reminding him thats what his friends are fighting for in the first place), not that having friends are inherently bad.

So we trade the father reveal for more training? Who knows how that would have ended up? At worse Luke never goes to the Death Star, or dies there. The Death Star and the Emperor still blows up (probably Vader too) because Luke has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: R2D2. They need R2D2. Probably anyway.

Rogue 9 wrote:

cmdrjones wrote:http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/the- ... oze-button

nuff said

That is just so dumb.

First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way. Then he goes on to endorse Red Letter Media's bullfuckery. And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading. I mean, what the hell, man?

So your comment is uninformed and emotionally driven, thank you.

#1 have you ever fought a girl, armed or otherwise?
#2 did you catch that the original title of episode VI, was Revenge of the jedi? if George lucas thought that it was at one time compatible with the Star wars milieu, why did he change it? Could it be that there was some underlying philosophy behind that decision that the reviewer was objecting to?

Patroklos wrote:Those people end up at ROTJ no matter what Luke does. Luke doesn't do a damn thing to help his friends, they escape without him (Han has already been frozen before Luke gets there and is taken by Fett the same as before). LANDO is the one who springs them, all of them sans Han escaped on their own only faster this time because there is no need to delay to rescue Luke.

Everything is exactly the same with the exception of the Father reveal. I didn't say anything about Lando who will still be there, and you told me how irreplaceable C3PO and Chewie (not really anyone can do what Chewie did) are, not Leia or Han.
...
EDIT: R2D2. They need R2D2. Probably anyway.

Yes, which is why I said "Luke goes to rescue his friends, and in doing so provides the tool they will require to escape (R2-D2)."

And does Yoda actually SAY the reason he shouldn't leave is because friends are bad, or are you just channeling the BS prequal mythos? Because it always seemed to me he was saying his training was worth their deaths because it is the only way to defeat the Emperor (reminding him thats what his friends are fighting for in the first place), not that having friends are inherently bad.

But it wasn't the only way to defeat the Emperor. Even limiting ourselves to the OT, did not abandon his friends, and then defeated the Emperor anyway. And he did it by sparing Vader, after Obiwan told him that if he didn't kill Vader, "the Emperor has already won."

Twice Yoda and Obiwan told Luke to write people off as lost causes, and not doing so is how Luke defeated the Emperor. Even if their way would also have worked, they were wrong to declare that theirs was the only way.

cmdrjones wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:

cmdrjones wrote:http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/the- ... oze-button

nuff said

That is just so dumb.

First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way. Then he goes on to endorse Red Letter Media's bullfuckery. And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading. I mean, what the hell, man?

So your comment is uninformed and emotionally driven, thank you.

#1 have you ever fought a girl, armed or otherwise?

Yes. I practice armed Western Renaissance martial arts, and have regularly sparred with women, and know more than a few who are at the top of their game and can not only kick my ass but those of men who are far better at it than I am.

cmdrjones wrote:#2 did you catch that the original title of episode VI, was Revenge of the jedi? if George lucas thought that it was at one time compatible with the Star wars milieu, why did he change it? Could it be that there was some underlying philosophy behind that decision that the reviewer was objecting to?

I not only caught it, but knew it already. The change was because the title was explicitly at odds with what Yoda had already been shown to teach.

This film had some interesting concepts, but it had a lot of WTF moments as well. Finn to me was a useless character. A storm trooper on his first mission gets cold feet? And according to him, they take recruits as kids to "indoctrinate" them into the service of the First Order. Well I don't know what kind of "indoctrination" program they have but looking at Finn it seems like it isn't a real big deal. I mean he acted like he was just recruited and wanted to abandon ship instead of a child taken to learn "only one thing" And when Finn gets to use the light saber for the first time, a trooper throws down his weapons and pulls out a melee weapon? Why not just blast him with a blaster? Good thing those other storm troopers made sure to not use their blasters when Finn was using the light saber

Then him and Poe become buddies in the matter of minutes? While they are fleeing from the star destroyer they start bickering like a romantic couple and that then gets their ship hit because Finn was too worried about arguing with Poe than using the rear blasters.

Captian Phasma-TOTAL WASTE! If she was also another "indoctrinated" trooper, she sure didn't show it. She is able to shut down the entire shield while all the other tech officers, especially on the bridge of the base didn't notice that? C'mon

Rey was pretty cool. I look forward to her character out of them all to see what she does next. I could care less if Finn or Poe come back because they could be replaced with anyone and it wouldn't matter. Kylo I am kind of looking forward too, but not as much. I have a feeling his fate is already known. Rey will be the one to take him out most likely. He most likely will kill Leia and Luke as well. And Snoke seems interesting to me. I am curious to see where they go with him.

I want to see Kylo Ren, as a result of his defeat, become reckless to that point of almost wanting to lose a limb or get horribly injured, if for no other reason than to make his wanting to become more like Darth Vader a reality. This would also be an interesting turn of events, as perhaps the loss of humanity actually makes him doubt himself even more...

Andy Wylde wrote:And when Finn gets to use the light saber for the first time, a trooper throws down his weapons and pulls out a melee weapon? Why not just blast him with a blaster? Good thing those other storm troopers made sure to not use their blasters when Finn was using the light saber

I'm not sure about the execution, but the core idea - that the First Order has a combat doctrine for fighting Jedi that does not involve shooting blaster bolts at the people who can deflect blaster bolts - is fine by me.

Rogue 9 wrote: Yes. I practice armed Western Renaissance martial arts, and have regularly sparred with women, and know more than a few who are at the top of their game and can not only kick my ass but those of men who are far better at it than I am.

I have taught martial arts before to young teens, mostly girls. I also sparred with adult females in contact martial arts, and fought other female soldiers. None were ever a serious threat. Would you happen to be less than 5'4" tall and weigh less than 130 lbs by somechance? Or have you located some long lost tribe of amazons?

cmdrjones wrote:#2 did you catch that the original title of episode VI, was Revenge of the jedi? if George lucas thought that it was at one time compatible with the Star wars milieu, why did he change it? Could it be that there was some underlying philosophy behind that decision that the reviewer was objecting to?

Rogue 9 wrote:I not only caught it, but knew it already. The change was because the title was explicitly at odds with what Yoda had already been shown to teach.

then if you caught it, and knew about it, then you can answer the last question: Why was is considered ok at one point, then changed? Does that underlying philosophy that you are describing that "revenge" is said to be incompatible with NOT fail miserably in the ROTJ scene referenced?

Grumman wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:And when Finn gets to use the light saber for the first time, a trooper throws down his weapons and pulls out a melee weapon? Why not just blast him with a blaster? Good thing those other storm troopers made sure to not use their blasters when Finn was using the light saber

I'm not sure about the execution, but the core idea - that the First Order has a combat doctrine for fighting Jedi that does not involve shooting blaster bolts at the people who can deflect blaster bolts - is fine by me.

Actually, didn't that trooper identified Finn and called him a traitor? My impression was that he decided to kill him "personally" by switching to that baton/tazer thingy.

cmdrjones wrote: then if you caught it, and knew about it, then you can answer the last question: Why was is considered ok at one point, then changed? Does that underlying philosophy that you are describing that "revenge" is said to be incompatible with NOT fail miserably in the ROTJ scene referenced?

What the hell are you even talking about? Who gives a fuck? This is literally the only time I've heard what I assume is a Star Wars fan attempt to argue that hate and aggression are a bad thing in Jedi philosophy is some sort of 'ROTJ insertion'. If you really think that its quite apparent you've never seen - or simply didn't pay attention - during TESB, and neither did the fucking moron in the article you linked:

YODA
Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
flows from the Force. But beware
of the dark side. Anger... fear...
aggression. The dark side of
the Force are they.
Easily they flow, quick to join
you in a fight. If once you
start down the dark path, forever
will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will, as it did
Obi-Wan's apprentice.

LUKE
Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA
No... no... no. Quicker, easier,
more seductive.

LUKE
But how am I to know the good side
from the bad?

YODA
You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

...

VADER
Obi-Wan has taught you well. You
have controlled your fear... now
release your anger.

Luke is more cautious, controlling his anger. He begins to retreat as
Vader goads him on. As Luke takes a defensive position, he realizes he
has been foolhardy. A quick sword exchange and Luke forces Vader back.
Another exchange and Vader retreats. Luke presses forward.

VADER
Only your hatred can destroy me.

cmdrjones wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote: Yes. I practice armed Western Renaissance martial arts, and have regularly sparred with women, and know more than a few who are at the top of their game and can not only kick my ass but those of men who are far better at it than I am.

I have taught martial arts before to young teens, mostly girls. I also sparred with adult females in contact martial arts, and fought other female soldiers. None were ever a serious threat. Would you happen to be less than 5'4" tall and weigh less than 130 lbs by somechance? Or have you located some long lost tribe of amazons?

I'm 6'0" and 200 pounds if you must know, and being armed, which Rey was, makes all the difference. Could I wreck most of the women I know in hand to hand unarmed? Probably, but I've never tried. Swords make all the difference in the world; weight and reach start mattering a lot less than skill once you introduce weapons. Now hand one of them a weapon and make me try to take her unarmed and you have something more like the scenario in the movie. Is it possible to do? Yes, but it's extremely difficult even for a trained practitioner, and a couple of junkyard thugs probably don't know how.

We should also remember that Jakku is rather cutthroat (maybe even literally) so it's unlikely that Rey would be unwilling to hit below the belt (both metaphorically and literally) to gain an edge over her attackers.

We're talking about a streetfight for survival. The only rule is you come out of it intact. Whatever happens to your opponents is their problem. They could always have refrained from attacking you.

Batman wrote:We're talking about a streetfight for survival. The only rule is you come out of it intact. Whatever happens to your opponents is their problem. They could always have refrained from attacking you.

Does that justify killing them, Bats?

Galvatron wrote:

Batman wrote:We're talking about a streetfight for survival. The only rule is you come out of it intact. Whatever happens to your opponents is their problem. They could always have refrained from attacking you.

Does that justify killing them, Bats?

If we're talking about a real life scenario, if 2 guys jumped me in real life, I would do everything and anything in order to get out of it alive, including killing them, (but only during the actual confrontation - it's not like, if I managed to best them, that I'd then go and kill them after the fact).

Well they did have the character of Constable Zuvio who was cut from the movie. And he was a law enforcement officer at least for that particular village. So I wouldn't think killing would be a tolerated activity with having a constable around. Or why else have a constable in town if it was a lawless area?

But again he was cut from the film. So I guess at least what we are shown is that there is no law enforcement in the area and anything goes I guess?

Galvatron wrote:

Batman wrote:We're talking about a streetfight for survival. The only rule is you come out of it intact. Whatever happens to your opponents is their problem. They could always have refrained from attacking you.

Does that justify killing them, Bats?

It does justify doing stuff that may result in them ending up dead, yes. If all you have to do to stay safe is NOT attacking me, it's not my fault if you come to harm. Does it justify terminating them when they're already down and out? No. But if the only means at my disposal to defend myself include a chance that you end up dead, as I said, all you had to do to stay safe was leave me alone.

Andy Wylde wrote:Well they did have the character of Constable Zuvio who was cut from the movie. And he was a law enforcement officer at least for that particular village. So I wouldn't think killing would be a tolerated activity with having a constable around. Or why else have a constable in town if it was a lawless area?

But again he was cut from the film. So I guess at least what we are shown is that there is no law enforcement in the area and anything goes I guess?

Speaking of cut stuff from the film, what else was cut out?

For starters, there was a Vanity Fair picture that showed Phasma at Takonda (sp), which didn't make it into the theatrical version (along with Hosnian Prime stuff). And my gut feeling says that Max Von Sydow's character had a larger role as well.

Pelranius wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:Well they did have the character of Constable Zuvio who was cut from the movie. And he was a law enforcement officer at least for that particular village. So I wouldn't think killing would be a tolerated activity with having a constable around. Or why else have a constable in town if it was a lawless area?

But again he was cut from the film. So I guess at least what we are shown is that there is no law enforcement in the area and anything goes I guess?

Speaking of cut stuff from the film, what else was cut out?

For starters, there was a Vanity Fair picture that showed Phasma at Takonda (sp), which didn't make it into the theatrical version (along with Hosnian Prime stuff). And my gut feeling says that Max Von Sydow's character had a larger role as well.

Here is a link of content cut from the film.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/he ... story.html

Would we rather get an extended edition or just bonus content with deleted scenes a la carte?

Galvatron wrote:Would we rather get an extended edition or just bonus content with deleted scenes a la carte?

I may be totally off base...but I learned my answer from LOTR, and and if they removed enough scenes as hinted at by the novel...

Give us the extended if they were filmed.