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It appears someone's actually seized on my 'sucked off' quip above. That's kind of... terrifying. In any case, I've crawled out of the woodwork and responded over on TFN. I have the feeling this post won't do anything to stop them, and it'll probably get a good few here bristling at me, too. Joy.

Link

You should have realized that any amount of evidence would be insignificant next to one incriminating line. I don't feel sorry for you.

VT-16 wrote:You should have realized that any amount of evidence would be insignificant next to one incriminating line. I don't feel sorry for you.

Hnuh? I had no intention, and still don't, of engaging in debate with the OPFOR on this matter. I have far better things to do than try and get sense put into the SWEU. But as I've been mentioned, I feel obliged to show up and post something.

I'm mostly bothered that they seem to be using that statement as a stick to hit others, who do care, with. 'Cos after all, all of us on SDN are of one mind.

Like I said above, these people will easily skip over just about anything, if they can find one incriminating quip.

But, I guess we're in the same boat, since my name keeps coming up in dialogue there as well. Ah, the simpleminded...

As I followed this trainwreck unfolding, I recalled that I had actually emailed Traviss in regards to the earlier incident on the SW.com blogs, and had left on the exchange on reasonably good terms. Thus, I thought I might at least chance an email to her again, to try and raise some points about the sheer foolishness of Odds, without having to beat off her throngs of fanboys in the process. Needless to say, considering the medium, I was polite as I could be.

By her request (although I don't know why I should even bother to honor it after the fit she pulled), I won't repost the specifics of the discussion, but her first mailing amounted to declaring that she was completely justified in everything she printed because it was approved and "reviewed" by others at LFL, and I was attacking her integrity to suggest otherwise. I responded by apologizing for this precieved insult, and requesting for simple confirmation that the numbers used in Odds were official, and not vague and evidently unsupported proclamations, like those seen in her GAR article.

At this point, she started ranting, completely without provocation, declaring that I was harrassing her, and that was I insulting her and all of her colleagues. The rest of the post was pretty incoherent, but I was able to pull together a confirmation that the numbers in the story are completely approved. Needless to say, I am now on her block list. At least she didn't throw out some vague reference to calling the authorities on me (oh, and if you're reading this now Traviss, or one of her flunkies, I don't give a damn how "impolite" you think revealing this discussing is. You may not appreciate precieved insults, and I sure as hell don't appreciate false accusations of harrassment).


I've always been an advocate and patron of the EU, and I still think it adds to the universe, but this incident, especially the implication that the entire EU staff is just as pig-headed on this as Traviss, is just one in a long line of stupid proclamations and excrable "literature" they've been passing off lately. I may still enjoy elements of it, and purchase new works if they look to be reasonable and well done, but I will never again support the EU on principle, or buy an element of it simply for "completism".

I hate to say it, Stark, but I was wrong, and you were right. It is shit.

Has anyone nailed this 'the clones are like the SAS' rubbish yet?

Noble Ire wrote:As I followed this trainwreck unfolding, I recalled that I had actually emailed Traviss in regards to the earlier incident on the SW.com blogs, and had left on the exchange on reasonably good terms. Thus, I thought I might at least chance an email to her again, to try and raise some points about the sheer foolishness of Odds, without having to beat off her throngs of fanboys in the process. Needless to say, considering the medium, I was polite as I could be.

<snip evidence of insane EU writer>

I hate to say it, Stark, but I was wrong, and you were right. It is shit.

She's gone nuts. Like, proper nuts. You guys have to get rid of her before she sends the EU back to 1987. Let's hope a compilation of all her rants and paranoia is enough.

thejester wrote:Has anyone nailed this 'the clones are like the SAS' rubbish yet?

We had it nailed from the start. Does the SAS attack the enemy in large numbers on the open battlefield? No. ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos are special forces. The Grand Army of the Republic as a whole isn't.

Noble Ire wrote:By her request (although I don't know why I should even bother to honor it after the fit she pulled), I won't repost the specifics of the discussion, but her first mailing amounted to declaring that she was completely justified in everything she printed because it was approved and "reviewed" by others at LFL, and I was attacking her integrity to suggest otherwise. I responded by apologizing for this precieved insult, and requesting for simple confirmation that the numbers used in Odds were official, and not vague and evidently unsupported proclamations, like those seen in her GAR article.

At this point, she started ranting, completely without provocation, declaring that I was harrassing her, and that was I insulting her and all of her colleagues. The rest of the post was pretty incoherent, but I was able to pull together a confirmation that the numbers in the story are completely approved. Needless to say, I am now on her block list. At least she didn't throw out some vague reference to calling the authorities on me (oh, and if you're reading this now Traviss, or one of her flunkies, I don't give a damn how "impolite" you think revealing this discussing is. You may not appreciate precieved insults, and I sure as hell don't appreciate false accusations of harrassment).

Traviss used the same defense when I recently talked to her on her Live Journal. I pointed out all the ways 3 million doesn't make sense, and her response was that it was all approved by LFL, and that she didn't sneak anything past them. Traviss thinks that official approval is an excuse for anything, but what she doesn't get is that official does not necessarily mean canon fact. SW has policies and a canon hierarchy for handling discrepancies, and I seriously doubt the rest of the company prefers her minimalist brushfire war over the titanic conflict portrayed in other, higher sources (like the movies). I pointed this out to her, and she also lost it, repeatedly accused me of libel, and had me banned.

Noble Ire wrote: By her request (although I don't know why I should even bother to honor it after the fit she pulled), I won't repost the specifics of the discussion

I don't see why you can't simply post a sort of "best of" from it, giving a summary of how the discussion was, and then show her blowing up at you for no reason. If she shouts "that's out of context", then you'd be justified in posting the entire thing to prove her wrong.

Either way, she loses.

Jim Raynor wrote:We had it nailed from the start. Does the SAS attack the enemy in large numbers on the open battlefield? No. ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos are special forces. The Grand Army of the Republic as a whole isn't.

But has anyone posted specific examples of what happens when even the most elite forces get thrown into frontline engagements? I'm guessing that their response was along the lines of the GAR fighting like normal soldiers but with the skills of the SAS. Course, a look at some of the Rangers and 1st SSFs engagements in WW2 give the lie to that theory, but I wouldn't put it past them to try.

DPDarkPrimus wrote:

Noble Ire wrote: By her request (although I don't know why I should even bother to honor it after the fit she pulled), I won't repost the specifics of the discussion

I don't see why you can't simply post a sort of "best of" from it, giving a summary of how the discussion was, and then show her blowing up at you for no reason. If she shouts "that's out of context", then you'd be justified in posting the entire thing to prove her wrong.

Either way, she loses.

Well, I suppose I could show the second part, at least. The first set of emails were comparitively tame, and essentially amounted to a large dosage of some sort of righteous indignation at my audacity in daring to say that she, you know, might actually be wrong, along with a relatively modest tirade about how she had to have all of her stuff approved. Here's my reply (keep in mind, she didn't give any indication that she didn't wanted me to reply, and in fact gave me reason to reply, saying that I had disclosed details of our earlier conversation, which as far as I can remember, I had not):

I wrote:Firstly, the claim that I distributed the contents of any of our previous correspondence to anyone else is patently untrue, and I resent the implication.

At risk of dragging this discussion into a muck of symantics and pointless word fencing, I shall cut straight to the point. Though I still hold misgivings about the timing and content of Odds, from what you are saying, I can only assume such things were concidental, or at least the decision of a group beyond you. If this is the case, than I owe you an apology; I am sorry for implying professional misconduct on your part.

I just seek final clarification on one more matter, even if you feel you've already answered it (which you may have); Are the GAR and CIS numbers used in the short story official, approved and such? I simply ask because the last debate of this nature seemed to leave those numbers ambigious.

I had expected some sort of terse, short response, so that she might be ride of me, or something. This was the first line of her reply email:

Traviss wrote:This is now harrassment. Stop contacting me, and stop making these accusations. I have no idea why you think I should justify myself to you.

Now, I am as confused as you on this; for the life of me, I could not locate anything in that post that could really be interprited as "harrassment", or an accusation, or demanding that she justify anything. It was an apology, and a brief, I think reasonable, question.

She goes on to insinuate that I am a liar and an idiot, repeating over and over that Insider publications have to be approved by others, as if that makes up for all of this. I especially like the last lines:

Traviss wrote:Stop harrassing me. Stop mailing me. I don't want to hear from you, because you neither read what I send you, nor do you appear to have any concept of how offensive your patronising, ill-informed accusations are. I've blocked your mail. If you attempt to bypass that filter by using alternative addresses, anything you send will be deleted unread.

She also seems to operating under the delusion that I, and presumably anyone who opposes her works, is obsessed with her. I assure you, I really don't give a damn anymore, and I probably wouldn't talk to her again if she asked me to. The only reason I'm posting this at all is because I do not take kindly to the baseless accusations she has piled upon me. Well, at least I won't make general death threats against her, even though she seems to have no compunction against doing it to those who don't fall into the ranks of her Fandalorians (yes, Mr. Traviss, fantasizing about tearing out our throats or garroting us, on a public forum, can be construde as death threats. Think about it.)

I think the problem that many of you are making is that there IS any rational behind these attacks... She operates much like Bush, that the "Insult" is not something like "Your argument is dumb" but simply SAYING that something is wrong with her argument.

In her mind, if you wrote a well versed page long layout in fine words and flowing language, but said that she was wrong, she would no doubt respond about how you where haressing her and that your a moron.

See how this works?

Stark wrote:She's gone nuts. Like, proper nuts. You guys have to get rid of her before she sends the EU back to 1987. Let's hope a compilation of all her rants and paranoia is enough.

You mean like this one?

Well, the minimalism can debatably be traced to Lucas (though he contradicts this with his own visuals) but Traviss is still acting really nuts over this. I don't see any excuse for her conduct towards Noble Ire.

(And feel free to quote that, Fandalorians!)

I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure makes sense: 7
No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure doesn't make sense: 30
No firm opinion/other: 6

The ratio makes no sense/make sense is now 4.29:1

I'm not sure if anyone involved in the debate has mentioned this yet but if not, you might want to bring up the fact that according to the RotS novelisation:

1) Palpatine placed governors over "every planet in the Republic" (pg 204, hardback edition);
2) Those governors arrived with "full regiments of clone troops" to serve as "security forces" (pg 237, hardback edition).

I'd like to see that squared with there being a total of three clones for every planet in the Republic.

the minimalism can debatably be traced to Lucas

Watching the movies, there's thankfully nothing solid either way. And I wish that's the way it could have been.

Mange the Swede wrote:I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

I tried the link above, but it is no longer valid.

EDIT: Has that thread been removed? I can't find it.

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

I tried the link above, but it is no longer valid.

EDIT: Has that thread been removed? I can't find it.

WTF? They didn't lock the thread, they simply deleted it! Anyway, the figures I posted were current, so they would indicate the trend.

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

I tried the link above, but it is no longer valid.

EDIT: Has that thread been removed? I can't find it.

The thread has, apparently, been deleted. That's judging from the fact that it no longer appears on the Lit Forum.

Mange the Swede wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

I tried the link above, but it is no longer valid.

EDIT: Has that thread been removed? I can't find it.

WTF? They didn't lock the thread, they simply deleted it! Anyway, the figures I posted were current, so they would indicate the trend.

Is that a regular occurence there - deleting threads like that? Here we lock them down but rarely if ever delete. That smacks of just pure cowardice and spin doctoring. Yet another reason why I rarely venture away from SD.Net.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:

Mange the Swede wrote:I felt that a new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18 was in order:

I tried the link above, but it is no longer valid.

EDIT: Has that thread been removed? I can't find it.

The thread has, apparently, been deleted. That's judging from the fact that it no longer appears on the Lit Forum.

Yes, it was deleted. The post I made in there doesn't show up in "View latest posts".

I can't believe it. I revived a 3-year-old account to post about this on TF.N. Incredible. Though I doubt my voice would have any effect.

I just said in the ODDS thread that ODDS is a waste, going against Lucas' entire vision of the Clone Wars, a work of zero worth the sole purpose of which is the apologetics of a wrong number, and anyone who just saw the movies and didn't give a damn about EU would NEVER in his life think the Clone Wars were fought with 3 milllion clones.

But whatever. I loathe the EU for years already, since the downward slope after Thrawn trilogy.

The VD's, ICS' and ITW were amazing, and I fell for them too...

But now I just wish the EU would die. Looks like it's dying already (Vong? Biovong? Swarmitupid War? And finally... Cade Skywalker?).

A reboot for this whole self-absorbed franchise of countless crap stories could be actually a good thing.

Stas Bush wrote:<snip>

You are that Gross-admiral_Thrawn guy?

Has anyone pointed out the opening scroll for ROTS yet?