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Channel72 wrote:...I actually don't even know what the fuck the go-to rationalization is for the fucked up ESB chronology...

Mine's simple: damaged does not mean destroyed. The ship's still limping away too slowly to outrun a Star Destroyer but that doesn't have to mean too slowly to reach the next inhabited star system before they all starve to death.

Saw it again today in 3d. Didn't mind the 3D actually. Kinda improved it a bit. Also on second viewing when you don't get snagged on the problems it is a bit better.

A few things I did notice.

The Falcon is absurdly tough. Like stupid tough. Not just from that crash in the snow, but during the chase it gets hammered like six or seven times by TIEs. We get explicit dialogue that the shields are still down. The problem is that we're shown it takes only two blasts to utterly destroy a SD turbo laser turret. Twice. So.. yeah. I don't know what the Falcon is made of but it's pretty sturdy. More sturdy than a pair of turbo laser turrets.

When he's probing her Ren says that she sees Han as the father she never had. Possibly implying that Rey indeed never knew her father and was dropped off by her mother.

When he's talking to the mask, Ren asks for his grandfather to show him the power of the dark side again. I theorize that Ren was called to the mask in the same way that Rey was called to the saber and shown a vision, possibly leading him to the dark side or making him vulnerable to Snoke's influence. Both items were owned primarily by Anakin, one used primarily while he followed the light and the other while serving the dark.

Ren is definitely only glanced by the bowcaster. This explains why he's not sent flying through the air like every other target hit. That said while he is wounded, he's still fast enough to get to the exit and get ahead of Rey and Finn (I don't know how he knew where they were going).

Rey begins the duel with seemingly little skill if any, constantly retreating, until the precipice. When she 'light sides up' she seems to gain not only power but skill with the blade.

X-Wings now carry at least 10 proton torpedoes.

Looking at it now, I'm pretty sure the spec ops 2 seater TIE exists only to facilitate Finn and Poe's escape.

Grumman wrote:

Channel72 wrote:...I actually don't even know what the fuck the go-to rationalization is for the fucked up ESB chronology...

Mine's simple: damaged does not mean destroyed. The ship's still limping away too slowly to outrun a Star Destroyer but that doesn't have to mean too slowly to reach the next inhabited star system before they all starve to death.

Yea, that's how I always took it as well. When he says "damaged", then looks up a system chart, alá Elite Dangerous, picks Bespin because his friend works there. Clearly the Falcon has enough power to make one jump. So I always took that to mean that he feels Bespin is the safest route. The Falcon can't make a second jump in case the other systems are dangerous. You have to remember you're watching Star Wars too. There's a thing called The Force. Though Hans friend is the ruler of a city, he might have been drawn to Bespin by the Force as well. The whole "empire set a trap for you by using your friends" always sealed the deal for me

Galvatron wrote:I want either a retcon that gives me my damn hologram or one that moves Takodana to the Hosnian system. As for why it didn't suffer any ill effects from the destruction of Hosnian Prime, like the Endor holocaust, I'm willing to accept that it just didn't.

I just assume that during the transit through the warp some of the energy of the beam gets lost and enters normal space and becomes visible.

Although that wouldn't explain how it was visible instantly from where the heroes were (and presumably everywhere else).

I don't think we're likely to get an explanation beyond "wibbly wobbly hyperspacey stuff".

Vendetta wrote:Although that wouldn't explain how it was visible instantly from where the heroes were (and presumably everywhere else).

I don't think we're likely to get an explanation beyond "wibbly wobbly hyperspacey stuff".

That is in fact the official answer.

I'm not all too bothered by the handwaved hyperspace effect stuff. Keep in mind this is something totally new to the SW universe. Even the Death Star was a sublight weapon. So who's to say exactly what the side effects of a hyperspace beam would be like?

Because, you know, the movie only hinted in dialogue. The book only actually said it.

And others have just ranted at the top of their lungs for something else.

Moving on.

Assuming I accept that it can in fact be seen throughout the galaxy, lets say supernova style but not having to wait years for it to get us (not that that works, as its a slightly higher release of energy but stretched over light years instead of from a single point). Gotcha. Moving on.

So why did it appear in the resolution we saw it, supposedly dozens to hundreds of light years away? At most it should be a streak across the sky similar to a meteor with zero visual of either end. It if happened to at Earth-to-Mrs distance we would see a small blip of light if anything of the planet itself. But we see characters watch an in detail close up if you will as if the whole thing happened at the distance of our moon. Why is that?

Because at some fucking point you just have to accept that a magic spell has magical side effects which might not have any real-world analogs, which (apparently) is exactly what the people in charge of all of this have said. I mean FFS we're already talking about a brand new and highly exotic weapon which sucks up an entire star in a matter of minutes and shoots a giant laser beam which moves faster than light across the galaxy to blow up multiple worlds, yet the idea that this exotic FTL laser beam might have the weird property of being highly visible at FTL speeds (and at such resolution!) is worthy of getting your knickers in a twist?

Yes it was a stupid scene, and I'm honestly surprised JJ actually repeated the same thing which caused similar hand-wringing from the ST movie (my only thought is that he did it on purpose for shits and giggles), and the excuse is pretty silly, but it's an excuse nonetheless, and the problem pales in comparison to the real criticisms of the movie.

Anyways, little late to the party but I thought the movie was enjoyable, good but not great. I agree with the earlier sentiment that it's almost like a reverse-reflection of TPM, with great acting and characters but weak plot and very poor world-building (having to look up online to get a fuller understanding of the political situation in the galaxy is not good). I'd personally rank it at the same level of ANH/RotJ, below RotS/ESB but above the other prequels. The supposed minimalism wasn't that bothersome, hyperspace travel has always been fast so it's no surprise people would get to places quicker, in the OT it wasn't until the last movie that you ever saw a large number of ships together at once, and firepower has always been variable (in fact I believe we see this is the exactly the case when Poe does his strafing run to free Han & co., his first shots causes large-ish explosions which take out multiple stormtroopers but when he starts snipping them they're about as powerful as Chewie's bowcaster).

Did anyone catch when Kylo Ren took off his mask when he was talking with Han Solo before his death scene when Kylo said,

THE SUPREME LEADER IS WISE! I find this interesting because the supreme leader Snoke being wise also has something in common with another Sith lord,

DARTH PLAUGEIS THE WISE!


Interesting connection?

Galvatron wrote:Caroline Blakiston (Mon Mothma in ROTJ) is still alive and acting. They could have cast her to be the familiar face on Hosnian Prime.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0086860/

Absent some contextual scenes to basically reintroduce the character, I doubt the vast majority of people would have had any more idea who she was than they did for anyone else in that scene.

Patroklos wrote:I agree with you, ESB has lots of problems. But like you said ESB was made 30 years ago. The sensibility of audiences (particularly the layman's understanding of basic science) is different now, filmakers have more resources at their disposal and are expected to use them, and this one was never anything but the darling of the studio which lavished money upon it. ESB was blazing new ground in both the genre and special effects not following on 50 plus years of blockbuster scifi flicks. On top of that TFA is a follow up, so I expect it to learn from the mistakes of the previous movies.

I can pretty much promise you that the vast majority of the movie-going public did not give two fucks about whether the giant red hyperspace death beam being visible to Han and Finn made scientific sense.

Instead all they cared about was whether or not it was an effective visualization and whether or not the reactions from Han and Finn were sufficiently acted to portray a sense of "oh shit this just got real" well enough.

Andy Wylde wrote:Did anyone catch when Kylo Ren took off his mask when he was talking with Han Solo before his death scene when Kylo said,

THE SUPREME LEADER IS WISE! I find this interesting because the supreme leader Snoke being wise also has something in common with another Sith lord,

DARTH PLAUGEIS THE WISE!


Interesting connection?

Anakin also said Obi-Wan and Mace Windu were wise in the prequels; does this mean that one of them is secretly Darth Plagueis?

More seriously, if he were Plagueis he'd have no reason to hide it; outside of Palpatine himself no one knew his identity.

Palpatine never publicly revealed that he was, in fact, Darth Sidious either.

Galvatron wrote:Palpatine never publicly revealed that he was, in fact, Darth Sidious either.

Yeah, but Snoke has yet to publicly reveal anything; he's only appeared speaking privately via hologram to Kylo Ren and General Hux.

And yet Leia knew about him. She said it was Snoke who seduced their son to the dark side.

Galvatron wrote:And yet Leia knew about him. She said it was Snoke who seduced their son to the dark side.

Yes, obviously they know about Snoke, but why would he conceal his identity as a true Lord of the Sith from his own damn apprentice in private conversation if he is in fact Plagueis?

Because Kylo and the Knights of Ren aren't Sith? Maybe Snoke is the true name of Darth Plagueis and he continues to use it just like Palpatine and Dooku continued to use their real names around non-Sith.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:Did anyone catch when Kylo Ren took off his mask when he was talking with Han Solo before his death scene when Kylo said,

THE SUPREME LEADER IS WISE! I find this interesting because the supreme leader Snoke being wise also has something in common with another Sith lord,

DARTH PLAUGEIS THE WISE!


Interesting connection?

Anakin also said Obi-Wan and Mace Windu were wise in the prequels; does this mean that one of them is secretly Darth Plagueis?

More seriously, if he were Plagueis he'd have no reason to hide it; outside of Palpatine himself no one knew his identity.

Well his identity as the supreme leader is known. Leia, Han, Kylo and Hux all mention him by name. So we know if the Resistance knows him, the Republic does as well. As to what degree they know him? That is up in the air right now. Other than being the supreme leader. Is anyone besides Kylo aware of his force status? We will find out eventually. Although Hux was told to bring Kylo to him at the destruction of Star Killer base to complete his training.


But I also noticed that Snoke seemed to have facial scars and they may have been from when Sidious thought he killed him? And maybe Snoke doesn't want his identity revealed? We knew that Palpatine was the emperor to the public at large. But how many knew he was Darth Sidious?


I know that in the Legends EU that Plaugeis was a Muun. But is that still canon anymore? Because in the films he is only mentioned by name. They could retcon his appearance perhaps? But since his name is mentioned in ROTS as Darth Plaugeis the Wise the name still applies.

But again all just pure speculation on my part. I could be wrong 7 ways from Sunday too. I just thought it was interesting that Kylo would refer to the supreme leader as wise. Although wise is a term that could be applied to many others too. Just that to me, Snoke looks like he may fit the bill to the character. Also if he was Plaugeis, perhaps he is constructing a new order of dark side users and not necessarily a new Sith order?

I don't know? But I am interested to see where this all ends up.

http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/the- ... oze-button

nuff said

cmdrjones wrote:http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/the- ... oze-button

nuff said

That is just so dumb.

First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way. Then he goes on to endorse Red Letter Media's bullfuckery. And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading. I mean, what the hell, man?

Rogue 9 wrote:

cmdrjones wrote:http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/12/the- ... oze-button

nuff said

That is just so dumb.

First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way. Then he goes on to endorse Red Letter Media's bullfuckery. And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading. I mean, what the hell, man?

Thank you! I was basically thinking the same thing that you just put into words.

Since you all were no doubt anticipating RedLetterMedia's review even more than the movie itself, here you go...

So the question is, given the ending, was that whole review sarcasm?

Rogue 9 wrote:First of all, his idea that Return of the Jedi as a title somehow represented some leftist reimagining of the Jedi is absurd; Yoda and Obi-Wan make it perfectly clear in the first two movies that anger and hate (and hence revenge) are anathema to the Jedi way.
...
And then he goes into a sexist rant about how Rey couldn't possibly beat up her muggers because she's a girl (despite the fact that she's armed and they apparently are not), at which point I stopped reading.

Whether it is or not, it's also a rant about how the movie is weaker for refusing to let Finn's good deed be a good thing. Having Finn help Rey even the odds against opponents who outnumber and outmuscle her makes Finn and Rey better characters. Being capable of accepting a genuine offer of help is strength, not weakness.

In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's mentors make it perfectly clear that abandoning his friends in favour of his training is the right thing to do. Attachments are anathema to the Jedi way, and only devotion to doing the right thing in an academic sense will keep a Jedi on the straight and narrow path.

They are wrong.

Luke goes to rescue his friends, and in doing so provides the tool they will require to escape (R2-D2). And in turn they rescue Luke at his darkest hour. They may not have won, but they minimised their defeat by rejecting the ideals of the Jedi in favour of doing the right thing because you care about the people who will be better off if you do.