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Here's something Traviss' personal man-bitch wrote after my last post.

jamesgilmer wrote:

JimRaynor55 wrote:1. Other canon sources disagree, as I showed in my first post here

They aren't canon anymore. They have been displaced by new canon. This new canon may be displaced sometime in the future. The whole EU may be invalidated should George Lucas decided it. Welcome to franchise fiction, have a nice stay.

The Clone Wars microseries, the NEGC, and all of Saxton's work isn't canon anymore!

jamesgilmer wrote:

JimRaynor55 wrote:3. As far as I know, she has defended her work with shoddy explanations such as the ones I refuted in my first post, such as intelligence being off by a factor of billions, or Palpatine pulling off a blatant con job that anyone should have been able to see through. If she has an answer to the points I raised here, I would like to see them

Here's an idea. You get a job working at LFL. You work your way up the ladder to continiuity man and author relations or whatever the position is that decides canon. You become that man who signs Karen's paychecks and then, then you can make the EU anything you want. You can tell Karen to have a gafillion clones and wabbillion droids and all will be right with the world.

Great argument.

jamesgilmer wrote:She was hired to work with numbers that predated her and she did so and she was asked to make it fit and she did so to the satisfaction or at least acceptance of 99.99% of the fans.

So she was hired to work with preexisting numbers, and she made her work fit in? But wait, I didn't you just say that all those previous sources were now made noncanon?

jamesgilmer wrote:If you are so enraged by her handling of the clone numbers then don't buy anymore books by her (wait, you haven't bought the CW boks yet, nevermind), do not buy future books by here. Lodge a protest with LFL if you want. Sign an internet petition.

I don't plan on buying her damn books.

jamesgilmer wrote:But understand that blatant libel of anyone is not cool.

Is "libel" the new catchphrase among Traviss and her fanwhores now?

VT-16 wrote:Banned you from her LJ or from SW.com?

Livejournal. I hardly ever post on SW.com, although I don't think I would last long there if I did.

Jim Raynor wrote:
I just tried to post again, and bring up what you said. Guess what? The fucking skank whore already banned me! What a fucking chickenshit.

I'm like, so surprised. Not. You didn't hurl insults, she couldn't address a single one of your arguments, yet you were still banned. Fascinating, that. What a loser she is.

jamesgilmer wrote:
JimRaynor55 wrote:
1. Other canon sources disagree, as I showed in my first post here


They aren't canon anymore. They have been displaced by new canon. This new canon may be displaced sometime in the future. The whole EU may be invalidated should George Lucas decided it. Welcome to franchise fiction, have a nice stay.

I didn't get the impression jamesgilmer meant it that way when he talked with me.

But a funny thing is, every time I defended my position in the debate and it looked like they understood, they'd suddenly write comments that reverted everything back to "Palpatine is tricking everyone with those numbers, he soo 1@@7!!!11"
That actually creeped me out a little. Like watching a cult unfold.

Something I read recently in the SW:CL page 84, was that the Geonosian droid factories are slow, obsolete, dangerous, and implied to be inefficient. The main reason the Seps are using Geonosis is because it's out of the way and was unlikely to have uninvited guests dropping by. If, so judging by the rate droids were coming off the assembly lines factories in the Core, once the Clone Wars start, even if smaller could probably manufacture more droids than Geonosis. Also, any newly constructed factories or more modern factories in the rim of comparable size could manufacture more droids than Geonosis. Essentially Geonosis serves the same role to Baktoid Armor Works as Rothana served for Kuat.

Also, looking at the cargo capacity of a TF Core Ship which is rated at 66 million cubic meters. If we assume that the CSs carried nothing but B1s and they were packed as tightly as they were in the MTTs than a TF CS could carry at least 50 million B1s considering 46 CSs escaped from Geonosis with full or almost full holds that would mean the TF made off with 230 million B1s. Also, assuming Geonosis was building droids for the Seps for 5 prior to AOTC, which is generous, and not counting the other ships that escaped would mean that Geonosis was, or could be, building B1s at the rate of 46 million a year which is over 46 times the number Traviss states factories of comparable size were producing in Odds, this is from what the Complete Locations describes as an ancient and secretive factory in the outer rim.

99.99% of the fans? That's funny. After watching ROTS, even non-SW fans - girls, even - find the idea of 3 million soldiers on one side ridiculous. If 99.99% of the 'fans' accept it, clearly we're defining 'fan' as 'VIP Whore' or something similar.

BTW, the whole 'VIP' thing? That's such bullshit. She's a crappy writer for a crappy series of books surviving off the dregs of the afterglow of someone elses movies. Pffffffffft.

Mr. Gilmer is a well-spoken individual, and in fact he agrees with us that the three million number is far too small to be a rational size for the Grand Army.

He apparently lacks either the ability or, according to him, the inclination to debate anything.
It is pointless to engage him in argument he cannot refrain from slander.


Unfortunately Karen’s live journal is not a forum of debate, as has been well demonstrated.
It is unfortunate however; as I am quite confident that Darkstar could devastate their support of the numbers in short order. They lack any unified coherent argument to support their claims beyond a tenuous appeal to authority.

Karen sees apparently only libel, which is unfortunate because she never responded when I asker her what scale she ascribes to the Clone Wars. I would be very interested in her views on it after this period of lambasting each other across the Internet.

The only thing left to do is to undermine the retcon in much the same way that Saxton helped kill the 5-mile behemoth.

I guess I’ll have to reset my sights a little lower and try to convince McEwok that the Grand Army is truly grand on an Imperial scale.


Funny, I just recalled that the last time I was here I was refuting Saxton’s ICS numbers as outliers, and being beaten to death by hordes of posters (well, maybe 4), how times have changed.

I agree with Icehawk- destroying this nonsense in the same way the 5-mile SSD fallacy was destroyed is the way to go- continued criticism and reasoned rebuttal that eventually causes the entire falsehood to collapse in on itself. In any discussion where it comes up, dismiss it as bullshit, and give the reasons why. It's not difficult, the evidence is overwhelmingly against this 3,000,000 clones (and assorted "Odds" idiocy) crap.

Additionally, I recommend everyone who's also on TFN to post on this thread

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18

to give their view on the issue. One post only (I broke that, but I don't think 000 would mind ...). Avoid personal attacks.

Well, I'm attempting to get a survey of folks at TFN (bigger poster pool there) about the Traviss stuff. We'll see how it goes. A credit says it degenerates into a mudslinging fest by tomorrow (thanks to Vympel and others incidentally for staying with the spirit of the OP-- it's be nice if the folks over there would follow suit).

Holy fuck. That thread on the Galactic Senate made a part of me want to crawl into a corner and die.

Stark wrote:That's ridiculous. People wonder why I hate the EU.

No kidding. I used to read the EU years ago, but they became increasingly stupid and so I stopped. Around the time KJA and the like became prolific EU writers

Someone mentioned in another thread that the prequel EU is better than the NJO EU, and to a certain extent that was true before this nonsense. Things like LoE et al were much better than the LOLZ CORRAN HORN novels... and now look what happened. Why is it so hard for a franchise to maintain quality? Look what happened to Doctor Who in twenty years - the crazy DW:EU took characters and themes in totally different directions, books were used as weapons in personal vendettas, etc.

Hey... Karen Travissss is like John Peel! John Peel wrote whole novels to win internet arguments with people who thought his ideas were stupid as well!

jamesgilmer wrote:But understand that blatant libel of anyone is not cool.

Jim Raynor wrote:Is "libel" the new catchphrase among Traviss and her fanwhores now?

I'm not so sure they understand the definition of the word "libel". I think saying that someone is "socially challenged" as she did here +http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/284 ... 2#t5053322
is far worse than what anybody have said about her. I have no reason to doubt that Karen Traviss was/is a fine journalist. I haven't read any of her articles and I don't have a reason to. She's also a fine author (although some of her stuff is incredibly uninspired, do I even have to mention Odds?) but I dislike the Mandalorian stuff. Sure, I don't have a problem with the cultural aspects, but the language? That's delving far too deep into Star Trek territory. Star Wars have used alien language for effect since the beginning, huttese etc., but having a subculture of Mando's? That's taking things too far. What I utterly dislike is comparing fans who, in this case, seems to have a better understanding of the GFFA, to psychos that are threatening to kill authors. I think that is very disturbing. What's also disturbing is the blanket condemnation (which Jamesgilmer denies that Karen Traviss has made) that "if they're over 14 - they're sickos" and that they have various characteristics with various mental disabilities etc.

I'm so glad I've stopped buying EU material. I just knew it could only go downwards after Saxton left.

Vympel wrote:I agree with Icehawk- destroying this nonsense in the same way the 5-mile SSD fallacy was destroyed is the way to go- continued criticism and reasoned rebuttal that eventually causes the entire falsehood to collapse in on itself. In any discussion where it comes up, dismiss it as bullshit, and give the reasons why. It's not difficult, the evidence is overwhelmingly against this 3,000,000 clones (and assorted "Odds" idiocy) crap.

Additionally, I recommend everyone who's also on TFN to post on this thread

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18

to give their view on the issue. One post only (I broke that, but I don't think 000 would mind ...). Avoid personal attacks.

Here's the current rundown from that thread (updated):

No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure makes sense: 5
No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure doesn't make sense: 21
No firm opinion/other: 5

It's also worth noting that two people who have posted in favor of the 3 million figure disagrees with the notion that the CW was a "small scale bushfire war".

3 million is far too low obviously. It is however canon and no matter how much Wong and his supporters at sd.net complain about it it wont change.

Just like the 8km and then 12.8km Super Star Destroyer falsehood, eh?

You read his sig? It says "Death to Saxtonites, Glory to Mandalorians" in that language. At least he admits it's not enough, though.

000 wrote:You read his sig? It says "Death to Saxtonites, Glory to Mandalorians" in that language. At least he admits it's not enough, though.

Because it's so horrible pointing out when the EU is full of shit. I don't understand people like that.

000 wrote:You read his sig? It says "Death to Saxtonites, Glory to Mandalorians" in that language. At least he admits it's not enough, though.

Oh brother, that's ridiculous. So, where's the overwhelming majority in favor of three million clones? As it's now, the ratio is almost 4:1 (that the figure doesn't make sense, I'm keeping track of the thread).

At some point we should e-mail Traviss the results.

"Death to Saxtonites, Glory to Mandalorians"

HAHAHAHAHAH. Boy, someone ought to reply to that in Klingon or something, just for fun.

At some point we should e-mail Traviss the results.

Oh, she'll handwave it all away and accuse the sender of being a misogynist stalker or something.

Sending it above her wouldn't work too?

I don't know any Klingon so I called him an "*expletive* idiot" in Huttese instead. Hopefully I got the right guy.

I posted. Good idea for a thread.

A new rundown from +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 256/p1/?18

No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure makes sense: 5
No. of people that's of the opinion that the 3 million figure doesn't make sense: 22
No firm opinion/other: 5

So who really is the minority on the number issues? Us, as they purport, or them? The general feeling I'm getting is most people tend to be ambivalent about it and then there's a vocal few who like to hold hands with authors and who like attention and then there are the actual people who prefer small numbers.