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weemadando wrote:Hmmm. One handy thing to bring back would be a collection of metallurgy texts. Analysis of Damascus steel. Japanese sword making techniques etc...

I doubt we'd want to bother with Japanese swords. They take a huge amount of skill and effort, and building rifled muskets for when our existing weapon become worn out would offer a better return.

weemadando wrote:Hmmm. One handy thing to bring back would be a collection of metallurgy texts. Analysis of Damascus steel. Japanese sword making techniques etc...

Japanese swords arent the be all end all that some seem to think they are.....for the japanese style of combat they are wonderful....against a heavy european flail....the blade will most likely shatter.
The local weaponsmiths would be able to fill any needs in that reagard...and from what is written mithril is what we'd want for such things...

Keevan_Colton wrote:

weemadando wrote:Hmmm. One handy thing to bring back would be a collection of metallurgy texts. Analysis of Damascus steel. Japanese sword making techniques etc...

Japanese swords arent the be all end all that some seem to think they are.....for the japanese style of combat they are wonderful....against a heavy european flail....the blade will most likely shatter.
The local weaponsmiths would be able to fill any needs in that reagard...and from what is written mithril is what we'd want for such things...

Yeah, but for TRADE... Think about it. Rather than having to give up our modern tech in trade, we just give them improved versions of their own.

weemadando wrote:

Keevan_Colton wrote:

weemadando wrote:Hmmm. One handy thing to bring back would be a collection of metallurgy texts. Analysis of Damascus steel. Japanese sword making techniques etc...

Japanese swords arent the be all end all that some seem to think they are.....for the japanese style of combat they are wonderful....against a heavy european flail....the blade will most likely shatter.
The local weaponsmiths would be able to fill any needs in that reagard...and from what is written mithril is what we'd want for such things...

Yeah, but for TRADE... Think about it. Rather than having to give up our modern tech in trade, we just give them improved versions of their own.

That could be a very good idea, though I think pocket knives etc would go down equally well.

Keevan_Colton wrote:

Coyote wrote:For selling technology to the locals, we can invent better plows and irrigation techniques until we can bring steam-engine tractors to bear, just like in our own real history. Why risk bogging down and messing up the HumVees for agro uses? Although it may be useful in limitaed applications...

And the Zeppelin would be used either for airial spraying of ricin, and/or for landing a team on Mt. Doom to pitch the ring in before the enemy forces have time to reverse course and meet us there.

The Zepplin does seem like a good idea for the mount doom trip...and now it seems I've hit the top 75....

Zepplin's aren't feasible. Where would we get the hydrogen?

Sr.mal wrote:
No no no no, the MP-38 was the German smg during WW2 thats the one I'm talking about. It's made of stamped sheet metal. It is very easy to manufacture.

Actually you mean the MP 40. The MP 38 is almost visually identical, but much more expensive to produce.

SirNitram wrote:

Keevan_Colton wrote:

Coyote wrote:For selling technology to the locals, we can invent better plows and irrigation techniques until we can bring steam-engine tractors to bear, just like in our own real history. Why risk bogging down and messing up the HumVees for agro uses? Although it may be useful in limitaed applications...

And the Zeppelin would be used either for airial spraying of ricin, and/or for landing a team on Mt. Doom to pitch the ring in before the enemy forces have time to reverse course and meet us there.

The Zepplin does seem like a good idea for the mount doom trip...and now it seems I've hit the top 75....

Zepplin's aren't feasible. Where would we get the hydrogen?

Electrolysis of water.....would also give us pure oxygen for use in scuba style ops

SirNitram wrote:

Keevan_Colton wrote:

Coyote wrote:For selling technology to the locals, we can invent better plows and irrigation techniques until we can bring steam-engine tractors to bear, just like in our own real history. Why risk bogging down and messing up the HumVees for agro uses? Although it may be useful in limitaed applications...

And the Zeppelin would be used either for airial spraying of ricin, and/or for landing a team on Mt. Doom to pitch the ring in before the enemy forces have time to reverse course and meet us there.

The Zepplin does seem like a good idea for the mount doom trip...and now it seems I've hit the top 75....

Zepplin's aren't feasible. Where would we get the hydrogen?

All you need to do is pass an electrical current thought water with a collection device above. Building a crude water powered generator is easy enough, as has been said before.

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Electrolysis of water.....would also give us pure oxygen for use in scuba style ops

REmind me NEVER to dive with you.

You use compressed air in SCUBA diving. Anyone using oxygen will quickly discover that it becomes lethal to the human body once you pass 10m depth.

Nitrox is an exception, but you use a composite mix of Oxygen and Nitrogen that varies according to depth. Nitrox diving generally is for 40-70m depending on situation.

Go deeper and you want tri-mix, Nitrogen Oxygen and Helium in varied amounts.


Take this as a warning. NEVER EVER DIVE ON PURE OXYGEN.

weemadando wrote:

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Electrolysis of water.....would also give us pure oxygen for use in scuba style ops

REmind me NEVER to dive with you.

You use compressed air in SCUBA diving. Anyone using oxygen will quickly discover that it becomes lethal to the human body once you pass 10m depth.

Nitrox is an exception, but you use a composite mix of Oxygen and Nitrogen that varies according to depth. Nitrox diving generally is for 40-70m depending on situation.

Go deeper and you want tri-mix, Nitrogen Oxygen and Helium in varied amounts.


Take this as a warning. NEVER EVER DIVE ON PURE OXYGEN.

I dont scuba (could you guess ) but I'm sure we could find some other uses for the oxygen.....

Keevan_Colton wrote:
I dont scuba (could you guess ;)) but I'm sure we could find some other uses for the oxygen.....

Yeah. Any medical facility will need a LOT of pure O2 for treatment of shock etc.

And also - one cool thing about gas and pressure. Once you hit 30m depth or so Nitrogen becomes toxic to your system. Like alcohol or dope toxic.

Lotsa fun to be had as long as you don't do anything stupid like give your SCUBA gear to a fish or something like that.

The moment you go above that depth again you're fine, no side or after effects at all.

The truly daring among us could try using wood, stretched fabric, and a HumVee engine to make a Sopwith Camel... I wonder how long it would be before we could cast engine parts for simple, Model-T style engines... we'd have to rig some sort of petro refining facility... this would be for the folks who decide to stay for their lives...

Coyote wrote:The truly daring among us could try using wood, stretched fabric, and a HumVee engine to make a Sopwith Camel... I wonder how long it would be before we could cast engine parts for simple, Model-T style engines... we'd have to rig some sort of petro refining facility... this would be for the folks who decide to stay for their lives...

Hmmm. Petroleum refinary could be established fairly quickly if we had access to dwarven caverns and tech. All it takes is a few big "cracking" towers. It will be dirty oil, but a proper refinary can be fabricated given enough time. They're fairly low tech, but very labour intensive.

weemadando wrote:

Coyote wrote:The truly daring among us could try using wood, stretched fabric, and a HumVee engine to make a Sopwith Camel... I wonder how long it would be before we could cast engine parts for simple, Model-T style engines... we'd have to rig some sort of petro refining facility... this would be for the folks who decide to stay for their lives...

Hmmm. Petroleum refinary could be established fairly quickly if we had access to dwarven caverns and tech. All it takes is a few big "cracking" towers. It will be dirty oil, but a proper refinary can be fabricated given enough time. They're fairly low tech, but very labour intensive.

Explain to me how oil could have formed in the brief time ME has existed. ME simply isn't as old as Earth.

SirNitram wrote:

weemadando wrote:

Coyote wrote:The truly daring among us could try using wood, stretched fabric, and a HumVee engine to make a Sopwith Camel... I wonder how long it would be before we could cast engine parts for simple, Model-T style engines... we'd have to rig some sort of petro refining facility... this would be for the folks who decide to stay for their lives...

Hmmm. Petroleum refinary could be established fairly quickly if we had access to dwarven caverns and tech. All it takes is a few big "cracking" towers. It will be dirty oil, but a proper refinary can be fabricated given enough time. They're fairly low tech, but very labour intensive.

Explain to me how oil could have formed in the brief time ME has existed. ME simply isn't as old as Earth.

How could anything have formed of evolved on it in the timeframe? It might not have the full range of natural resources, but it very well could. But IIRC, Middle Earth was suppost to eventually turn into our earth.

Do they even have crossbows in ME? if not we could build and sel them the most complicated part is the trigger and a locksmith can mke one

Coyote wrote:The truly daring among us could try using wood, stretched fabric, and a HumVee engine to make a Sopwith Camel... I wonder how long it would be before we could cast engine parts for simple, Model-T style engines... we'd have to rig some sort of petro refining facility... this would be for the folks who decide to stay for their lives...

The engine is way too heavy for anything where likely to be able to build thats fixed wing, or lighter then air for that matter. Fuel consumption would also be a problume.

I think an airplane is a poor idea anyway. Range would be minimal, though distances are not that great in the area that concerns us. But finding places to land would be hard so the utility is very limited. At least a lighter then air craft can come down in any reasonabul clear area if it can haul anchors.

Yeah, the Zepp may be do-able more so than any heavier-than-air craft. But as a long-term project for those that decide to stay in the ME realm-- witht heir extended lifespans and all-- it would be just the project.

I just think it would be cool to see a sequel to the story, years later, with air duels between Sopwith Camels and Fokker D-VIIs vs. dragons...

But let's not spin off this already heavily involving thread...

I was wondering, would anyone be willing to trade in 50 of those 150 HumVees for, say, 10 Stryker or LAV-25s? Could we? Even without weapon, their cross-country mobility, fording capablity, and NBC protection for entire squads would be sweet.

Come to think of it, if we can use electrolysis, then with some extra work we can build an airship or two. Who was it here that's working on building an airship right now?

I'd like to note that I expect the Nazgûl to have little effect on rational western troops, highly trained and disciplined and standing in good order. Remember that they've only scared a bunch of feudal levies and single-combat horse lords before (at least in the books).

The base's compliment will be a highly disciplined group, responding to an organized system of commands, and with each man relying on his comrades for survival. To run or to panic is anathema to troops who fight in the western style. There are stories of British soldiers at Isandhlwana who fought until their bayonets were broken, and then until their rifle stocks were broken, and then died with their teeth buried into the enemy. The western style of training creates a soldier who requires exceptional strains to break or let down his comrades. No specially or longly trained warriors, the men who died at Isandhlwana were slightly malnourished, average recruits from the industrial centers of Britain.

And the discipline and training, the regimental tradition, of the western system and the British Army, had created in them such a fierce sense of unity and loyalty towards each other, that when surrounded by even such a highly organized and highly skilled enemy as the Zulus, and ineptly commanded... They fought nearly to the man, kicking and biting at their foes as they were stabbed down when every other means of resistance had been exhausted. Similiar stories are told of the Romans at Cannae.

There is one quote of the classics, that sums this up quote nicely:

Free though they are, they are not entirely free -- for law is their master, whom they fear far more than your men fear you. Whatever their law commands, that they do; and it commands them always the same: they are not allowed to flee in battle from any foe, however great the numbers, but rather they are to stay in their ranks and there conquer or perish.

-- Herodotus, The Histories (7.104)

That is the epitome of western military discipline, and when everyone in the base has been instilled with it, as they shall be, do you really think the fear the Nazgûl bring will have such an effect as it does against a disorganized body? I would think not.

There were many things, from tribal masks or painted bodies and blood-curdling shouts, designed through long usage to be as psychologically effective as possible, so to speak, that were employed against western armies throughout history. They were regarded only as curiousities, examples of the barbarity of enemies almost always defeated.

In the same way, if a Nazgûl were to get close enough to spread fear, the non-commissioned officers, the soldiers who'd seen the most combat - and against western armies back home, likely, with a far greater potential to kill - Coyote and Rob, perhaps, would shout sternly into the ranks. A moment's wavering would be forgotten, the line would stiffen, and the Nazgûl would have no more effect.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Balrog wrote:

One was downed with damn bow on the river. We'd kill them easily.

If you're referring to the movie, I'm pretty sure the book is more cannon then the film adaptation.

But, if you think you've got the situation under control, good luck then

Its in the book, a black rider on a winged mount is downed during the fellowships trip down the Aduin.

Hmmm, yes, now I remember.

In the same way, if a Nazgûl were to get close enough to spread fear, the non-commissioned officers, the soldiers who'd seen the most combat - and against western armies back home, likely, with a far greater potential to kill - Coyote and Rob, perhaps, would shout sternly into the ranks. A moment's wavering would be forgotten, the line would stiffen, and the Nazgûl would have no more effect.

However, if the Nazgûl were close enough to spread fear, then they'd be close enough to spread the Black Breath. Time to get your gas masks out boys

Sea Skimmer wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

weemadando wrote: Hmmm. Petroleum refinary could be established fairly quickly if we had access to dwarven caverns and tech. All it takes is a few big "cracking" towers. It will be dirty oil, but a proper refinary can be fabricated given enough time. They're fairly low tech, but very labour intensive.

Explain to me how oil could have formed in the brief time ME has existed. ME simply isn't as old as Earth.

How could anything have formed of evolved on it in the timeframe? It might not have the full range of natural resources, but it very well could. But IIRC, Middle Earth was suppost to eventually turn into our earth.

I don't think much evolved, IIRC, it's a creationist world. C'mon, the sun is a chariot, not a ball of plasma. I'd need to find the Similrillian to see if it mentions exactly when the world was made..

Balrog wrote:
However, if the Nazgûl were close enough to spread fear, then they'd be close enough to spread the Black Breath. Time to get your gas masks out boys

That's what they're there for.

Hmmm, i don't recall gas masks in the original scenerio, are they something you gonna fashion MacGyver-style?