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Stas Bush wrote:Sorry, messed up you with Beowulf, it's like deep night here pardon

Man, get some sleep, the STGOD is hardly important

CmdrWilkens wrote:Well Wilkonia has space and all other sectors pretty much maxed out for FY08 and FY09 but there will probably be room in the FY10 budget to shift money into the joint GPS system. At that point the additional rail lines I've been building will be complete (as an aside all of the rail lines mentioned in my OOB post are referencing state run 4-track lines) and I will have room in the capital budget to move into those expenditures. Also if folks start buying up my old Ticos then I may have some extra cash to put into an NSC-run GPS program.

Given our geographic distance, I'll do what I can to support you. Just let me know what you need.

Man, get some sleep, the STGOD is hardly important

Night shift work dude the STGOD saves from AutoCAD

So guys, you taking over GLADOS? I give you teh codes and tech.

Stas Bush wrote:okay, so JointGPS? I contribute initial 2 sats for the cause of peace, but like I said, my space budget is tight now and will be so for some time in the future.

As soon as I get my budget squared away, I'll be glad to help you out, as well as sending technicians and the like. Also, be on the lookout for your Red Telephone to buzz soon.

Master_Baerne wrote:

DarthShady wrote:If Baerne agrees with this, then it's ok with me.

Baerne agrees with this. Here, have an ACV. I'll expect yearly payments of 1dollars (1/65 of you GDP, assuming it's still 6.5 billion USD), to be increased proportionate to your economy as it grows, for a total cost of 10 million USD.

The reason for this is that a new construction ship built in Russia cost 9.6 million USd, and mine is automated. You also get the newly upgraded version, for no additional cost.

Upgrades: Modular hardpoints on the main deck for an attachable tank. Think an oil tanker truck, only shipboard and larger, and a UAV with a two-person operating crew for additional resource location technology.

Ok, this works for me.

RogueIce wrote:

CmdrWilkens wrote:Well Wilkonia has space and all other sectors pretty much maxed out for FY08 and FY09 but there will probably be room in the FY10 budget to shift money into the joint GPS system. At that point the additional rail lines I've been building will be complete (as an aside all of the rail lines mentioned in my OOB post are referencing state run 4-track lines) and I will have room in the capital budget to move into those expenditures. Also if folks start buying up my old Ticos then I may have some extra cash to put into an NSC-run GPS program.

Given our geographic distance, I'll do what I can to support you. Just let me know what you need.

The thing is right now that I don't have a native space industry (as previously announced all of my space money has been sunk in other MESS space programs) so really I'm just looking to invest and let others do the grunt work. Again I've got the cash in 2010 but until then I could dig into the previously mentioned (and still gorwing) silver reserve but that's for emergencies only. In the meantime as soon as I get some orders for those used CGs I will have some cash to spare to help finance the NSC's operation.

I was thinking that if the missile conference isn't going anywhere, I'll head to the OMSK-MESS talks instead. I'll take the zepp instead of the hydrofoil... anyone want to do some base-jumping?

Coyote wrote:I was thinking that if the missile conference isn't going anywhere, I'll head to the OMSK-MESS talks instead. I'll take the zepp instead of the hydrofoil... anyone want to do some base-jumping?

I think my character will do that. OOC, I'm going to go have dinner with my friend.

IU, given the enormous pressure and considerable negotions the President of the Shinra Republic has been involved in as of late, a temporary holiday sounds like a very good idea. I hope you all will excuse my absence.

If you want an "Air Force 1" type zeppelin, Canissia will make one for you. That way, you can take your debauchery with you everywhere!

Not just a command and information suite, parachute lifepods, solar array on top, chaff, TROPHY... but also a fully stocked bar, a hot tub, massage room and a large circular waterbed.

OOC discussion goes here shep

There's a couple reasons why your analysis is wrong. First, you've got the wrong propellant for the first stage. Prometheus uses RP-1 and LOX as fuel. ISP is about 350. The kick motors used LH2 and LOX, with ISP of 450.

Second, you've estimated the length of the satellite as roughly 4 times too long. Two reasons for that: the focal length is folded (primary - secondary - sensor). Also, the body of the sat telescopes to it's final position, reducing the length even further.

Third, MEO is a very wide range of orbits, and the sat is what we earth people still consider LEO (high LEO, but LEO nonetheless).

Fourth, the max payload of the An-124 is 150 metric tons.

Lastly, the satellite weighs 8000 kg (it's got extremely light weight construction).

Calculations follow for delta-v:

1 stage 88 tonnes fuel 11 tonnes structure 3096m/s (reusable weighs more)
2 stage 29 tonnes fuel 2.9 tonnes structure 3795m/s
3 stage 10 tonnes fuel 1 tonnes structure 3362m/s
4 stage 8 tonnes

Total delta-V: 10253 m/s
All-up weight: 149.9 tonnes

ARRG it's relevant!
Two pages of highly useful and revalent to my country discussion and where am I? Sitting in an airport waiting for a shuttle ride.

On the whole international situation I long ago offered my own country, Specifically White Sand's International Space Center. We can put the FCS in easy since I have as I've mentioned so often, so much of my budget allocated to space industry, including for those paying attention at home, the aim to put the first GPS system into orbit on my own then make it available to the world(Or at the very least OMSK pack members and a fee to everyone else)

Sea barges? Why when I have two fully functional launch complexes situated right on this planets equator and ready to go?

For #$543 sake I mean I decommised half my Navy, freed up over two hundred billion from the budget and got an addition 95 billion form OMSK party members, by Xenu I've got close to 30 billion dollars invested in that space program, to say it's far along is an understatement.

Manned space flight is next on the table, the only question is who wants the bragging rights to the the first man into "space" (IE two or three LEO orbits)

Hell knows Beowulf is now openly admitting that his only task is to lauch cheap but powerful spysats.

Way to go. We plan to ban it one, explain the reasons. No avail. We give NSC, no avail.

We still work on N.S.C. but this is really .... *declines to comment* no matter if LEO calculations are correct or not (or, most likely, that the sat is a lightweitght "copout")... wierd.

Mr Bean wrote:Manned space flight is next on the table, the only question is who wants the bragging rights to the the first man into "space" (IE two or three LEO orbits)

We have a manned spaceflight programme running. We definetely want it to happen.

Beowulf wrote:Fourth, the max payload of the An-124 is 150 metric tons.

Beo, the An-124 (mod) was actually used in HOTOL projects for LEO high inclination launches. Top load is 120 tons.

Not to mention that An-124 has a critical HOTOL separation problem which barred the 124-100VS ("Air start") programme from expanding accordingly.

Projected performance for An-124 HOTOL with 2-tier RN Polet, 3-4 tons to LEO and up to 115 grad inclination, 0,5 ton to GEO:

Launcher rocket mass is 100 tons - nad that's a two-tiered rocket from top ENERGIA developers designed spec. for An-124.
Lift weight (basice orbit 200 km)
Inc. 90° 3,1 tons
Inc. 51° 3,5 tons
Inc. 0° 3,9 tons
GTO 1,1 tons
Flyoff trajectory 0,6 tons

I got fed up with the whole "We can't have sats in LEO because then we end up with spy sats in orbit" deal. So now there is one, and it's above where you'll shoot it down. 8 tons of lightweight shit is still 8 tons. You never addressed my argument as to why your scenario was wrong, or why my method of resolving photo-recon sat data won't work. You just go "No!" Which isn't helpful at all.

My scenario was wrong?

You actually want to start a war for satellites?

my method of resolving photo-recon sat data won't work

What's your "method"?

If anyone starts a war, it'll be you. Do you really want to go to war to prevent spy sats from going up? Secrecy doesn't stop wars. It makes people unsure of your intentions, and makes it more likely to start.

The method is simply this: talk to the person. Converse. The vast majority of stuff you really want to stay secret can still happen under cover. You just can't start a space program in secret (for example). Of course you could never keep a space program secret past the first launch anyway.

You're the one that cooked up a scenario that went something like the following:

Guy with sat: hay, I no where his bases are. *attack*

Other guy: *dies*

Guy with sat: I iz winner!

With the distinct problem with step two of: you don't call shots.

Realistic scenario:
Guy with sat: hay, I no where his bases are. *attack*

Other guy with sat: hay everyone! scramble! *big fight occurs here*

Guy with sat: Hmm... sneak attack didn't work so well.

Lastly, as far as the An-124 payload goes, I got my numbers from Aerospace Web

the focal length is folded

With what unobtanium method? You have a 3.5m diameter mirror; the width of the An-124's cargo bay is 4.4m; how the hell do you "fold" it without constricting the aperture size and causing degradation in optical quality and making it look like ass?

I'll grant you the "telescopic" method of extending out the focal length; but that will only go so far within reason.

There's a couple reasons why your analysis is wrong. First, you've got the wrong propellant for the first stage. Prometheus uses RP-1 and LOX as fuel. ISP is about 350. The kick motors used LH2 and LOX, with ISP of 450.

Running your propellants and ISP through my calculator gives me an delta v close enough to your figures; but here's the thing:

Total Volume available to An-124 in cargo bay (4 m diameter cylinder extending 26m): 326.85 m3

Fuel Densities:

LOX: 1,140 kg/m3
RP-1: 806 kg/m3
LH2: 71 kg/m3

10,000 kg of fuel in 3rd stage at 5.5 fuel/oxidizer ratio:
-----8,455 kg of LOX - 7.4 m3
-----1,537 kg of LH2 - 21.6 m3

29,000 kg of fuel in 2nd stage at 5.5 fuel/oxidizer ratio:
-----24,500 kg of LOX - 21.5 m3
-----4,455 kg of LH2 - 62.7 m3

88,000 kg of fuel in 1st stage at 2.56 fuel/oxidizer ratio:
-----63,250 kg of LOX - 55.48 m3
-----24,707 kg of RP-1 - 30.65 m3

Total Volume of Propellant: 199.33 m3

12.57m 1st and 2nd interstage volume - 1m in length (for engine bell and clearance during staging)
12.57m 2st and 3nd interstage volume - 1m in length (for engine bell and clearance during staging)

Volume taken up by Optics: 58.58 m3
(4m diameter by 4.66m length [assumed the focal length can telescope 3x it's own length])

Volume taken up by Satellite Orbital Manouvering Stuff: 22.62m3
(based on ratios of Peacekeeper Stage IV) (4m diameter; 1.8 m in length)

Total Volume: 305.67 m3

This means that you have a clearance in your air launcher of:

7.5" inches between your rocket and the sides of the cargo bay
33.4" inches between the ends of the cargo bay and your missile

This is assuming no nose-cone at all; it's going to be one mighty blunt one....

And to top it all off; this is a Liquid fuelled rocket!!!!

How are you going to deal with outgassing from the rocket's fuel tanks as LH2 and LOX leak out of the fuel tanks?

Doesn't matter how well the tanks are made; there will be outgassing. I shudder to think of the possibilities of a fuel air mixture forming and being ignited as the rocket rolls out the back from a spark from one of the rollers, etc.

In short, your rocket is marginally feasible; but totally unsuited to operational service, since you know; aircraft pilots like to not have their plane explode in mid air.

Also; because this is a liquid fuelled rocket; structural mass percentage has to go up from 10%; in order to actually make the missile suitable for every day operational service and not come apart in midair from the stresses of launch out the back....

Not to mention as Stas has just said; the An-124 can only actually deliver 100 tons in the Air launch platform role due to various aerodynamic problems inherent in dumping stuff out the back.

If we downsize your rocket so that it can be dumped out the back; guess what; you no longer have enough delta v to launch a 8 metric ton sat into orbit; but rather a 5 metric ton one.

In short, your rocket is marginally feasible; but totally unsuited to operational service, since you know; aircraft pilots like to not have their plane explode in mid air.

Booster rocket size and clearance, and disengagement from An-124 belly were all problems the An-124-100VS program went through; that's why it actually never went op, despite a good 2 stage "Polyot" booster made by "Energia" dev team. And Beowulf wants us to believe he just solved all that with handwaving and got an An-124 "Aerial Start" programme working with a 149,9 tonne rocket (hint: unfeasible, the 120 ton limit placed on booster weight in 100VS program was not placed for gigs either - heavier booster have been considered), which can shoot up 8000 kg sats - not into LEO "foundation orbit" (typical for HOTOLs, 200km) but all the way up over 1000 kms?

Wow. Beowulf better be making cash off this engineering feat in the real world; because that's really outlandish.

Beowulf wrote:Lastly, as far as the An-124 payload goes, I got my numbers from Aerospace Web

I'd of course excuse you; the problem is An-124 HOTOL programme existed and it checked a lot of things; and even with a smaller 2-stage booster - 120 tons - which was armed with the efficient Energia type engines, it was problem-ridden.

Beowulf wrote:You're the one that cooked up a scenario that went something like the following:

Guy with sat: hay, I no where his bases are. *attack*

Other guy: *dies*

Guy with sat: I iz winner!

Hey, stop that. That's a strawman. Me (and Shep) can be concerned that top installations in our nations could become pinpoint strike targets. And then you'll somehow work out of it, because you have the MESS behind you.

More than that, who are you launching sats for? We didn't miss your talk with Lonestar; you do it for the whole MESS.

All that unreasonable us to expect military use from you?

P.S. We heard full well that there's a joint MESS space agency; that MESS has common currency and some pooled budgets.

Frankly I CAN'T BELIEVE the MESS Space Agency doesn't have a budget which would allow it to construct Yamal, Angara or Proton likes in the course of a year, maybe faster.

WHY the An-124 flight launch? Cheap LEO Spy Sats, that's the ONLY reason; it's only necessary if you want to stuff LEO with observation sats so throroughly that SDN Archipelago would be like a stripper in full daylight to you .

3.2 m mirror. As to how you fold the focal length, it's obvious: you have the 3.2m primary reflect forward to a smaller secondary (both have to be precisely ground into shape, but the secondary doesn't have to be flat, which means it can be smaller), where it reflects back through a hole in the primary, where there is either a tertiary mirror, or the sensor. You lose some light gathering ability, but not aperture size. You can't read, apparently. Also, the An-124 has a cargo bay 36 meters long, not 26 (it's an extra 7 meters if you never raise the rear ramp). The reusable portion has a mass percentage great than 10%.

As for fuel air explosions, you simply make the cargo bay very well vented.

As for you last objection, I'm simply going to ignore it, and assume my engineers can manage to dump a 150 ton object out the rear end of an aircraft. The An-124 being used is purpose built for this system. Also, quick google searches fail to bring up a source for this HOTOL project. I'm going to need a reference before I believe it.

An-124-100VS HOTOL

BOOSTER DEVELOPMENT


Comparison of Systems.

Note that the 100-ton 2 stage booster for 200 KM LEO stats are between 3 and 4 tons for various inclination.

Now, look at YAMAL booster - it's of the Soyuz Booster Family - 4 boost and 6 booster configs (Yamal-1 and Yamal-2) can lift 20,000-30,000 kgs to the 200 km LEO.

That's the kind of stuff you need to beam up 10,000 kgs into MEO.

Now look, I called Rogue Ice on Red Phone.

We have the NSC proposal; the An-124 cheap leosat system just reeks from "I WANT SPYSATS NYAH AND WILL HAVE MY WAY" - instead of MESS Space agency which is probably the richest space agnecy in the world, actually developing something like NORMAL heavy boosters for MEO entrance of mass from 7 to 15 tons, for example.

the An-124 serves no MANNED SPACEFLIGHT purpose either, so it's proximity to LEO is a concern

and last of all we talked about NSC and Beowulf's actions totally threaten this peace initiative.

Stas Bush wrote:

In short, your rocket is marginally feasible; but totally unsuited to operational service, since you know; aircraft pilots like to not have their plane explode in mid air.

Booster rocket size and clearance, and disengagement from An-124 belly were all problems the An-124-100VS program went through; that's why it actually never went op, despite a good 2 stage "Polyot" booster made by "Energia" dev team. And Beowulf wants us to believe he just solved all that with handwaving and got an An-124 "Aerial Start" programme working with a 149,9 tonne rocket (hint: unfeasible, the 120 ton limit placed on booster weight in 100VS program was not placed for gigs either - heavier booster have been considered), which can shoot up 8000 kg sats - not into LEO "foundation orbit" (typical for HOTOLs, 200km) but all the way up over 1000 kms?

Wow. Beowulf better be making cash off this engineering feat in the real world; because that's really outlandish.

Beowulf wrote:Lastly, as far as the An-124 payload goes, I got my numbers from Aerospace Web

I'd of course excuse you; the problem is An-124 HOTOL programme existed and it checked a lot of things; and even with a smaller 2-stage booster - 120 tons - which was armed with the efficient Energia type engines, it was problem-ridden.

Beowulf wrote:You're the one that cooked up a scenario that went something like the following:

Guy with sat: hay, I no where his bases are. *attack*

Other guy: *dies*

Guy with sat: I iz winner!

Hey, stop that. That's a strawman. Me (and Shep) can be concerned that top installations in our nations could become pinpoint strike targets. And then you'll somehow work out of it, because you have the MESS behind you.

More than that, who are you launching sats for? We didn't miss your talk with Lonestar; you do it for the whole MESS.

All that unreasonable us to expect military use from you?

P.S. We heard full well that there's a joint MESS space agency; that MESS has common currency and some pooled budgets.

Frankly I CAN'T BELIEVE the MESS Space Agency doesn't have a budget which would allow it to construct Yamal, Angara or Proton likes in the course of a year, maybe faster.

WHY the An-124 flight launch? Cheap LEO Spy Sats, that's the ONLY reason; it's only necessary if you want to stuff LEO with observation sats so throroughly that SDN Archipelago would be like a stripper in full daylight to you .

Yes, I admit it. The An-124 air launch is specifically done (in part) to make it cheap to get sats into LEO. The launch of the spy sat is specifically because you and Shep are so damn afraid of them being in LEO. Reading your links it appears the reason why the missile was limited to 100 tons is because they had to stick another 20 tons of equipement on the plane, which reduced it's capacity. Additionally, it's possible they weren't using the 100M-150 version, which increased payload to 150 tons. It's hard because it's all in broken English from the translation software.

The scenario I gave a perfectly accurate summation of your position. You're afraid a first strike will be made possible by spysats, with the side undertaking it being invulnerable when it manifestly won't.

The game hasn't even been in existance for a year. Makes it kinda hard to develop the heavier launch vehicles.

You're the paranoiac about the spy sats. So now there's one in orbit. If you and Shep hadn't been so damned paranoid, the worst that'd be in orbit is a weather sat. There's any number of reasons to have sats in LEO, and you're fixated on one of them. The one I care about least. If you wanted to, you could overfly the entirety of my country, with the caveat that I can do the same to yours.

Lastly, I even posted I'll sign onto the NSC program.

Beo,ANY An-124 can fly with 150 tons max weight and 405 total weight. In separate cases flights with such weights are allowed; apparently they put too much weight on An-124 frame and thus reduced safety; so your sat failing to launch properly could happen. But even if it did.

You're afraid a first strike will be made possible by spysats, with the side undertaking it being invulnerable when it manifestly won't.

Wah wah wah. "We won't be invulnerable". So what? We launch a full scale war against your pinpoint strike, and THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD THIKS THAT WE ARE the NEW NAZIS. Or worse.

We are far more peaceful than you with what concerns space, and don't launch LEO spysats; and we are actually funding a GAGARIN manned space flight thing - VERY hard and draining on our money, I can't even play with GPS stuff people propose - from the inceptin of OMSK joint ventures, wile you are trying to pull us into an arms race and unnecessary drain of our space money for the "We spy on you, you spy on us" shit.

Fuck that.

Me and Shep are unanimous here, so that's the OMSK speaking for you, and I believe Bean is with us.

If you wanted to, you could overfly the entirety of my country, with the caveat that I can do the same to yours.

Well, so you say; my hypersonic drones will be your headache now from THIS DAY. I launch them every month as part of "testing" over OMSK airspace but they terminate in the South Eastern Ocean and fly over your territory. You wanted that : HAVE IT.

And that satellite up there is a temporary thing; we will find means to destroy it since it's a clear threat.

Beowulf wrote:Yes, I admit it. The An-124 air launch is specifically done (in part) to make it cheap to get sats into LEO.

500 or 1000 kg satellites. Not eight ton ones.

The launch of the spy sat is specifically because you and Shep are so damn afraid of them being in LEO.

Because I'm exercising my national sovereignity; something that was a very hot button issue in the late 50s and early 60s for precisely the reasons going back and forth here.

You're the paranoiac about the spy sats. So now there's one in orbit

No there isn't. It blew up along with the aircraft in mid air, killing all on board.

Your technicians are now refusing to fly on the launches, now; due to inadequate testing of the rocket.

Yeah right, you get it to work right the first time, no explosions in mid air from pre-production missiles?

PS - Shepnukistan has actually considered a sub-LEO micro-sat spam system; the MCB-180, based on the existing MIM-173 ASAT system to place very small 10-25 kg payloads into very low decaying orbits.

Development of the system never got further than the "this sounds cool, lets draw it up on paper"; being terminated due to the system violating the JSEZ agreement.

~ phew ~

Thankfully, something is moving.

Beowulf, you should know cheaper LEO boosters (the medium weight like early Soyuz family) can be made in the course of a few month, or even one month once you ramp up production; that's the top rate the USSR had produced the R-7 launch rocket family things.

So no need to get so fucking agitated; and if you can't wait for a year until you launch proper MEO Sats, because you don't want to waste dozens of billions on space, that's YOUR problem, not ours.

We run into hideous cost overruns sponsoring Bean's MEO GPS and our manned flight project; we are anticipating a year's delay before any good result; you sit there and look for ways to cut corners!!!