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The Romulan Republic wrote:I would hate it, possibly to the point of declaring the entire new trilogy non-canon, if they went with the "Endor holocaust", not that I think that they will. Its a stupid, ugly little meme that doesn't really fit with the films but that some fans insist on treating as fact, probably because they hate the Ewoks and enjoy fantasizing about Endor getting burned to the ground. As for the argument that such a thing would have to happen? How hard is it to say "The Rebels put a shield over Endor."? Not very.

There's nothing stupid about it. A massive battle station with a reactor capable of exceeding the energy output of a star had just exploded in low orbit. In what way could that not cause massive ecological damage?

Rogue 9 wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:I would hate it, possibly to the point of declaring the entire new trilogy non-canon, if they went with the "Endor holocaust", not that I think that they will. Its a stupid, ugly little meme that doesn't really fit with the films but that some fans insist on treating as fact, probably because they hate the Ewoks and enjoy fantasizing about Endor getting burned to the ground. As for the argument that such a thing would have to happen? How hard is it to say "The Rebels put a shield over Endor."? Not very.

There's nothing stupid about it. A massive battle station with a reactor capable of exceeding the energy output of a star had just exploded in low orbit. In what way could that not cause massive ecological damage?

It doesn't fit the end of Return of the Jedi for a start. The one with all the celebrating on Endor and no mention of an impending apocalypse.

The Rebels managed to erect a shield in time. Q intervened. A random quantum slipstream thingamabop redirected the damage elsewhere. The fact remains that since the Endor party scene happened, the Endor Holocaust did not.

Wasn't there a late Dark Horse comic series that depicted the post Endor cleanup? I remember a scene where Luke and Wedge are leading a flight of X-Wings putting out fires ala US military putting out Californian forest fires.

No Endor Holocaust Handwave: Endor, between magnetic field and upper atmosphere composition, is especially protected from most forms of ionizing radiation. Much of the debris from the exploding Death Star II came in at an angle just right to cause it to bounce off the atmosphere (an actual thing for concern when you want to stop orbiting a body) and either get hurdled into open space or into an unstable solar orbit, eventually falling into the parent star. Some debris makes it down, but not enough to cause massive issues.

How did all these coincidences occur? Because the Force wanted them to. Or maybe the ghosts of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon pooled their Force abilities together to save the lives of those on Endor.


I also remember seeing something about hyperspace explosions or something like that. Either with the first or second Death Star being largely shunted off into hyperspace when the reactor went. Any of the explanations would be fine by me. Or they never even address it. The laws of physics are often ignored in Star Wars, so that little bit really isn't going to be what destroys the series for me.

Just a question - Is the consensus that Yavin IV got trashed as well when the first Death Star blew up?

That's a very good question. I never hear anyone talk about that.

I would imagine not. The DS1 was a lot further away from Yavin IV than the DS2 was from Endor, it had only just entered firing position after all. Plus, I would think that any debris would be pulled in to the gas giant itself rather than towards the (much more distant) moon. If Yavin is anything like Jupiter it'll have a fuckoff-powerful magnetosphere as well, which might help with some of the radiation too.

Anacronian wrote:Just a question - Is the consensus that Yavin IV got trashed as well when the first Death Star blew up?

Why would it? Yavin 4 just rose above Yavin's 'horizon' for DS and they were nowhere near each other. All debris would logically be swallowed by gas giant. Remains flung energetically enough to reach Yavin 4 would necessarily be tiny, interceptable amount. Besides, seeing rebellion abandoned Base One right after the battle it might have well become uninhabitable, we never see it again after all.

Yeah. They totally didn't have a big victory celebration there afterwards.

Batman wrote:Yeah. They totally didn't have a big victory celebration there afterwards.

Well since there was a big victory celebration on Endor as well and this doesn't seem to count when people debate the Endor holocaust I thought the same rules apply.

In any case, It was simply a question out of curiosity.

Batman wrote:Yeah. They totally didn't have a big victory celebration there afterwards.

Yeah, it's not like the celebration (that was done the instant DS exploded) could have been A) before any DS pieces reached Yavin 4, B) inside shielded rebel base that was spared the brunt of destruction, C) shielded from direct hits by being on opposite side of the planet. And that's even not considering what was already admitted, that Yavin might have shielded the moon by sucking the fallout in.

I like how destruction apologists act that five orders of magnitude more hardened steel raining on a planet than there was soft rock/ice mix in asteroid that ended the era of the dinosaurs is totally the teeny tiny unimportant thing completely invalidated by the celebration scene that at best proves planet was somewhat okay next few hours.

Instead of, you know, being extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, such as say rebel fleet possessing nearly DS-like firepower level to vaporize all the station fragments. And even then in such magical way that doesn't result in clouds of molten metal vapour raining on the planet a few days later and making the atmosphere hot/toxic enough to burn your lungs. Yeah, totally nothing extraordinary here, move along

I'm firmly in the 'who gives a flying fuck' camp on this one. Anyway, I read somewhere most of the matter of the DS was sucked into a wormhole when the reactor blew. Plus you know...moons move around in orbit. Maybe the brunt of the remaining debris was absorbed by whatever planet Endor orbits once it was ready to settle.

Chimaera wrote: Plus you know...moons move around in orbit. Maybe the brunt of the remaining debris was absorbed by whatever planet Endor orbits once it was ready to settle.

Sure, that's why Luna has such a smooth featureless virgin surface. Not to mention those pristine unmarred pearls orbiting Jupiter.

Patroklos wrote:

Chimaera wrote: Plus you know...moons move around in orbit. Maybe the brunt of the remaining debris was absorbed by whatever planet Endor orbits once it was ready to settle.

Sure, that's why Luna has such a smooth featureless virgin surface. Not to mention those pristine unmarred pearls orbiting Jupiter.

Not really the point, is it? Endor had simply moved out of the way by the time the debris came its way. Maybe some smaller bits burned up in the atmosphere. The Endor Holocaust didn't happen...because it didn't happen.
And with your mind suitably blown, I shall press the eject button from this discussion. Fareweeeell....

Chimaera wrote:I'm firmly in the 'who gives a flying fuck' camp on this one. Anyway, I read somewhere most of the matter of the DS was sucked into a wormhole when the reactor blew. Plus you know...moons move around in orbit. Maybe the brunt of the remaining debris was absorbed by whatever planet Endor orbits once it was ready to settle.

That makes me wonder where the other end of the wormhole was and what poor world might have gotten fucked over instead of Endor.

Irbis wrote:

Batman wrote:Yeah. They totally didn't have a big victory celebration there afterwards.

Yeah, it's not like the celebration (that was done the instant DS exploded) could have been A) before any DS pieces reached Yavin 4, B) inside shielded rebel base that was spared the brunt of destruction, C) shielded from direct hits by being on opposite side of the planet. And that's even not considering what was already admitted, that Yavin might have shielded the moon by sucking the fallout in.

What are you babbling about? I was talking about the Endor party which lasted long enough for Luke to get there and join in with no Holocaust to be seen anywhere (and like hell the Yavin celebration happened the instant the DS exploded-Luke and co had time to get back to base, there was time for Luke to change, R2 to be repaired and they managed to get all those Alliance soldiers in formation for the medal scene. 'The instant the DS exploded' my ass).

I like how destruction apologists act that five orders of magnitude more hardened steel raining on a planet than there was soft rock/ice mix in asteroid that ended the era of the dinosaurs is totally the teeny tiny unimportant thing completely invalidated by the celebration scene that at best proves planet was somewhat okay next few hours.

If the Holocaust had happened it would have happened within seconds, minutes at best. The Endor party was not hampered by impacting debris cratering the village or a massive radiation wave frying everybody attending. The DS2 wasn't three planetary orbits away, it was 'right over the fucking village'. You could see the damned explosion and guess what? No Holocaust.

Instead of, you know, being extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, such as say rebel fleet possessing nearly DS-like firepower level to vaporize all the station fragments. And even then in such magical way that doesn't result in clouds of molten metal vapour raining on the planet a few days later and making the atmosphere hot/toxic enough to burn your lungs. Yeah, totally nothing extraordinary here, move along

The extraordinary claim here is there ever having been a Holocaust to begin with, when there's exactly zero evidence of it within the canon when we should have seen plenty of evidence for it in ROTJ alone. Guess what-party went on when any Holocaust would've happened practically instantly.

You can't use Yavin as an example either way. For one they are not the same station and obviously not the same super laser so there is no good reason to assume the effects of either weapon seen on screen is at all similar to that of the other. Not only that but the DSII was in orbit for construction purposes, not firing purposes. There is no reason to think the DSI as a completed and operating vessel was anywhere near as close to Yavin 4 as the DII was to Endor. We never see Yavin 4 and the Death Star displayed in the dam scene. We do see Yavin 4 from the DSI's display screen but we have no idea what the scale of that display was. We see that DSII relative to Yavin itself but that tells us nothing.

Maybe Yavin IV has a fucking shield, y'know, like Hoth fucking had.

I mean look, OBVIOUSLY there is ZERO fallout from a Death Star exploding. The DSII was in fucking orbit of Endor and it did nothing, SO instead of coming up with bullshit that contradicts what we see in the movies like most EU crap always has, come up with reasoning that support the actual on-screen evidence.

Wasn't the old EU explanation that the explosion got sucked into hyperspace?

As for disney canon? Wasn't there a ring on debris coming from the second death star? Maybe almost all of the explosion was directed on a plane, and that plane missed endor.

What if the Death Star II explosion turned most of the debris it had around itself into plasma? Sure it would cool down but then there would be tiny particles of debris rather than big chunks, stuff that would be repelled or burn up in the atmosphere.

I always just assumed the DSII's debris fell to the planet. Having just watched EpVI on Friday, we see the Death Star shuddering violently, crew members running for their lives and what not after the Emperor was tossed into the reactor. So by the time Wedge and Lando blew the core the DS could have been falling to the planet (albeit slowly) , Gravity may have already had influence on future debris.

Tychu wrote:I always just assumed the DSII's debris fell to the planet.

It couldn't have. Saxton identified at least a dozen objects the size of the Chicxulub rock heading for Endor - if those had hit, the entire moon and everyone on it would have been in deep shit over a much shorter period of time than that covered by the post-battle celebration. Even if the biggest lumps have been blasted by the fleet, the thousands of particles of dust visible emerging from the explosion are each big enough to cause Tungusta-level events, at least some of which would have landed close enough to the shield generator site to wipe out the commando team.

Havok wrote:Maybe Yavin IV has a fucking shield, y'know, like Hoth fucking had.

I mean look, OBVIOUSLY there is ZERO fallout from a Death Star exploding. The DSII was in fucking orbit of Endor and it did nothing, SO instead of coming up with bullshit that contradicts what we see in the movies like most EU crap always has, come up with reasoning that support the actual on-screen evidence.

Oddly enough this is a case in which EU crap actually agrees with the movies, at least thematically. The Endor Holocaust theory was created by Curtis Saxton based on the fact that the energy from the Death Star exploding has to go somewhere. Pro-Imperial fans on this site latched onto it because it gave them an easy way to vilify the Rebel Alliance. The problem as you stated is that we should have seen evidence of ecological damage instantly. The fact that we didn't indicates that something was done. As for Yavin, clearly whatever happened the debris did nothing.

jwl wrote:Wasn't the old EU explanation that the explosion got sucked into hyperspace?

As for disney canon? Wasn't there a ring on debris coming from the second death star? Maybe almost all of the explosion was directed on a plane, and that plane missed Endor.

There might have been something like that in the old EU. And it must be the case that fuel from SW reactors is stored in some exotic fashion, perhaps that the fuel itself is stored in hyperspace. Perhaps that could have had the effect of directing a portion of the Death Star's mass into hyperspace, thus protecting Endor from the harshest damage. Though the plane of the explosion appeared to be moving towards Endor in the same direction as the Rebel fleet and Millennium Falcon.

Zixinus wrote:What if the Death Star II explosion turned most of the debris it had around itself into plasma? Sure it would cool down but then there would be tiny particles of debris rather than big chunks, stuff that would be repelled or burn up in the atmosphere.

You are making the same physics mistake as the writers of the film Deep Impact(which was overall far better than Armageddon). Blowing up the debris further wouldn't actually help unless it was vaporized entirely. A thousand pieces have the same overall kinetic energy as a single large piece with the same mass. If any of it hits Endor, the energy must go somewhere.

Tychu wrote:I always just assumed the DSII's debris fell to the planet. Having just watched EpVI on Friday, we see the Death Star shuddering violently, crew members running for their lives and what not after the Emperor was tossed into the reactor. So by the time Wedge and Lando blew the core the DS could have been falling to the planet (albeit slowly) , Gravity may have already had influence on future debris.

But then why was Endor still habitable with no visible environmental damage that evening?

The best theory to deal with the debris was that of Ender's repulsorlift cradle. Because the Death Star was in such a low orbit, it must have been held there artificially. And given that this was the case, such a system could have easily blocked the debris from hitting Endor. The flash from the explosion could have hit Endor's shield, if it was distinct from the Death Star's shield. This would certainly fit the much larger installation we saw.

EDIT: Endor having the ability to survive the explosion would justify the Alliance allowing three of their most valuable people go on the same mission. There was no way they would have sent all of Han, Leia and Luke on a guaranteed suicide mission. Which this would have been if Endor wasn't in some way protected from the explosion.

Zixinus wrote:What if the Death Star II explosion turned most of the debris it had around itself into plasma? Sure it would cool down but then there would be tiny particles of debris rather than big chunks, stuff that would be repelled or burn up in the atmosphere.

That "burning up in the atmosphere" bit is exactly what the big chunks would have done. The obvious difference is that larger chunks would have a better chance of reaching the ground before burning up completely. The not immediately obvious difference, though, is that small chunks burn up more efficiently — both cases deliver pretty much the same total amount of energy into the atmosphere — so instead of a fairly compact area being flash-fried several times over, a much larger area gets thoroughly cooked.

It's something that comes up in RL discussions of setting up a meteor/asteroid defence for Earth; usually there's a comparison made between shooting something with a rifle or a shotgun. IIRC the general opinion is that failing to completely disintegrate the chunks actually causes more widespread damage.