SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread II

[Czechmate]

Fixed. See above. My mistake.

I refer to it as the Vikramaditya-class because 'Gorshkov-class' apparently refers to a variant of the half-deck Kiev aviation cruiser with a VLS launch system for its' SA-N-9s and some other sundry rearrangements. Calling it 'Vikramaditya-class' gives a clearer definition of what i refer to.

EDIT: I also support your PRSF demilitarization efforts. Except I did it by blowing them the fuck up right till the moment they crossed the border back onto PRSF soil.

[PeZook]

Actually, it's more of a MiG-21 modified with a rocket engine dropped from a Tu22M to set an altitude record.

Well, yeah. So it's a barely functional space rocket. Actually, it reminds me of a pick-up truck crudely modified for amphibious operations for some reason

Anyway, while propaganda counts for a lot, it can't actually offset actual development, so I wouldn't worry all that much.

EDIT: Though, of course, this does help them build suborbital bombers...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, it's more of a MiG-21 modified with a rocket engine dropped from a Tu22M to set an altitude record.

Well, yeah. So it's a barely functional space rocket. Actually, it reminds me of a pick-up truck crudely modified for amphibious operations for some reason

Anyway, while propaganda counts for a lot, it can't actually offset actual development, so I wouldn't worry all that much.

PeZook, decide on where to put the launchpad. Jerusalem or Camona (whatever that island is called. I don't even know where it is)

[K. A. Pital]

So, Czech, you want to tally up the PRSF ground war losses (men, armor, aircraft used in sorties and so forth)?

They had pressed for the river with 5 divisions (50,000) and had good tempo whilst engaging your barely 20,000 force, but with Beowulf's additional modern-equipped and air-supported 10,000-18,000 strong AD they got stuck, even though they managed to overtake some deployment points.

I would figure the ballpark losses for such a large and rather intense war would be around 1000-6000 men on both sides, depending on ferocity.

[Czechmate]

Comona. It's the southernmost island in Shroomania.

Stas, I made a post about counterattacking them in total Desert Storm airplane-cloud style shortly after you declared they would be retreating unmolested. I scrambled every tactical aviation asset available and counterattacked with all ground forces, and basically drove them back into their own country under the shadow of hundreds of airplanes of both the TJAF and TXAF.

I stated losses in that post. For your convenience, I will copy it here.

I will also NOT be debating total losses with you, so just don't even bother. Your coup and expectation that the Southron army would escape unmolested were both unrealistic, so I lowered the bar for realism myself. Losses are as follows.

Also; in game time, the war lasted slightly over a month and a half. You seem to be under the impression it was much shorter. The PRSF was also, for the most part, outclassed by the equipment used and by the training of the Tian Jiao Army they outnumbered.

---

As Commander-in-Chief of the Tian Jiaoan Armed Forces, he had issued a general order declaring all PRSF air and ground assets in or over his country to be fair game until they reached the border. His Tian Xian liason had agreed. Even now, wings of Flankers, Warthogs, Phantoms, Eagles, Strike Eagles, and Falcons from the TXAF and TJAF were out on sortie. All across western Tian Jiao, Southron tank units, racing for home and unprepared for the sudden ferocity of the attack, were caught unprepared and subjected to repeated precision bomb and missile strikes.

Even as the People's Army managed to shoot down a handful of Warthogs and nearly a dozen Phantoms, they suffered grievous losses. Vague memories of a 'Desert Storm' came to mind as the battered brigades of the Tian Jiaoan Army counterattacked under heavy air cover, their qualitatively superior Challenger 2C tanks and Desert Warrior IFVs allowing them to tear into the enemy's outclassed Type 59s.

Only in the north, in the operating area of First Tank Division, was there any serious resistance; that of the PRSF's elite Type 96 tank brigade. Some thirty Challengers were destroyed or immobilized by their precise fire before the remaining ninety-odd tanks of the Emperor's Own Lancers and Lancashire Dragoons pressed their attack, their long L/55 cannons allowing well-trained Tian Jiaoan gunners to put the nation's first run of depleted-uranium sabot penetrators into Southron turrets and tracks.

The counteroffensive, hastily launched by the former Emperor of Westchester out of little more than frustrated rage, continued for the better part of a week before coming to an end. Southron units, constantly harried by strike aircraft and the superior tanks of their enemies, were chased all the way back to their border, suffering horrific casualties along the way.

In later months, aerial surveys of the many hulks of Southron armor would reveal that nearly five hundred Type 59s and the entire Southron stock of Type 96 battletanks were crippled or destroyed outright, along with nearly five hundred of their BMP and BTR armored vehicles. The final tally of Tian Jiaoan losses during the war came to some eighty or ninety destroyed or irreparably damaged Challengers, two hundred Desert Warriors, ninety HMMWVs, one Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle, twenty Phantoms, eleven Warthogs, five Flankers, and one Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate.

In all, some three divisions of the PRSF's poorly led, poorly-equipped invasion force and nearly an entire Brigade Combat Team of the numerically inferior but well-trained and well-equipped Tian Jiao Army.

TJ Ground Losses:
-~80-90 Challenger 2s (2000s-era)
-~200+ Desert Warrior IFVs (2000s-era)
-~90 HMMWVs (1980s-era)
-~1 EFV (By accident, no less) (2000s-era)
-~2000 Professional Infantry (1990s-era)
-~20 Marines (1990s-era)

Approx. 1/5th of the TJA's total force

PRSF Ground Losses:
-~500 Type 59 MBTs (1950s-era)
-~120 Type 96 MBTs (1990s-era)
-~170 BMP-2s (1960s-era)
-~300 BTR-80s (1980s-era)
-~17,000 Conscript Infantry (1970s-era)
Approx. 1/2 of the PRSF's total armor force, approx. 1/5 of the PRSF's total infantry force

Considering the sheer number of aircraft deployed to attack the PRSF's army, some 200+ tactical aircraft making near-constant strikes for the better part of a week, and the disorganization caused by them which was then exploited by Tian Jiaoan units eager to force the enemy out, I do not believe these losses are unreasonable.

A 1991-Iraq-level nation invaded a first-world nation and got beat the fuck up. In the air, things were less conclusive; i'm still discussing air losses with Beo. At sea, it came out to about equal; one sunk Perry and one severely-mauled Burke against two mauled Neustrashimys and one damaged Slava.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Comona. It's the southernmost island in Shroomania.

Lol.. this will turn into a national pride thing...

And Shroom gave PeZook control. Well done.

[PeZook]

PeZook, decide on where to put the launchpad. Jerusalem or Camona (whatever that island is called. I don't even know where it is)

Jerusalem. Comona can be one of the mission control sites.

Also, we'll need a network of tracking stations: the eastern hemisphere is only partially covered.

[Sea Skimmer]

It would probably take several Tu-142s, Tu-160, submarines, and Kirovs to pull that off, and I will need to make a note on how many Kh-31s, Klubs and Yakhonts a Tu-142/Tu-160 can carry.

I said Kh-15, Kh-31 is a much smaller 90km range ARM (built of titanium for no particularly good reason) with lower speed and altitude performance. Its still useful since smaller weight and cost means you can shoot a lot more of them but the 90km range limit isnt too hot. The number of weapons carried depends on the exact type, Yakhont can’t be carried internally as far as I’m ware for example and would take up its own external hardpoint. Meanwhile six Kh-15s can go on one rotary bomb bay rack, and some external hardpoints might be able to hold 2-3 at once.

Which takes me back to an old news post... I intended build something like an Oscar II, but more modernised.

The Soviets found that an Oscar cost 50% as much as a Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier, and many Soviet Admirals strongly objected to constructing the class because of how expensive it was. An idea grown in size beyond useful purpose basically. Can’t say I recommend the class as a course of action for modern war, at least not without major alterations to the armament.

This is why I gave Japanistan rough analogues (the Japanistani ships were purpose built in the 1980s, instead of being conversions of 1960s ships) to the Soviet Yankee Sidecar and Yankee Notch SSGN conversions of SSBNs, instead of Oscar. Oscar was just too expensive, while the Yankees areonly about half the displacement. If you can afford enough Oscars to be useful you’re probably better off buying other things, like more numerous SSNs or carriers or some kind of Arsenal Ship with like 500 ultra long range subsonic anti ship cruise missiles of some new type. In general though, it’s best to buy aircraft to sink ships. An aircraft can act as a first stage and lets even a fairly small missile be employed against enemy surface ships, and it shoots down enemy planes so they don’t fuck with your shit.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

PeZook, decide on where to put the launchpad. Jerusalem or Camona (whatever that island is called. I don't even know where it is)

Jerusalem. Comona can be one of the mission control sites.

Also, we'll need a network of tracking stations: the eastern hemisphere is only partially covered.

We could ask someone in Messmerica... to host the tracking station...

As for tracking stations, one of the radars in question should be ready by next mid year. I will get to work building the facilities and so forth.

In the mean time, are we just going to launch Sputnik or something more sophisticated? I mean, the technology is already there.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I said Kh-15, Kh-31 is a much smaller 90km range ARM (built of titanium for no particularly good reason) with lower speed and altitude performance. Its still useful since smaller weight and cost means you can shoot a lot more of them but the 90km range limit isnt too hot. The number of weapons carried depends on the exact type, Yakhont can’t be carried internally as far as I’m ware for example and would take up its own external hardpoint. Meanwhile six Kh-15s can go on one rotary bomb bay rack, and some external hardpoints might be able to hold 2-3 at once.

Ok, noted. I wonder if I should get around to see if I can fit the Tu-160 with pylons, but that might affects its performance, or should I get on with that upgrade + uprated engines.

The Soviets found that an Oscar cost 50% as much as a Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier, and many Soviet Admirals strongly objected to constructing the class because of how expensive it was. An idea grown in size beyond useful purpose basically. Can’t say I recommend the class as a course of action for modern war, at least not without major alterations to the armament.

This is why I gave Japanistan rough analogues (the Japanistani ships were purpose built in the 1980s, instead of being conversions of 1960s ships) to the Soviet Yankee Sidecar and Yankee Notch SSGN conversions of SSBNs, instead of Oscar. Oscar was just too expensive, while the Yankees areonly about half the displacement. If you can afford enough Oscars to be useful you’re probably better off buying other things, like more numerous SSNs or carriers or some kind of Arsenal Ship with like 500 ultra long range subsonic anti ship cruise missiles of some new type. In general though, it’s best to buy aircraft to sink ships. An aircraft can act as a first stage and lets even a fairly small missile be employed against enemy surface ships, and it shoots down enemy planes so they don’t fuck with your shit.

Ok, that puts things in perspective. I can imagine the Russians must have really choked hard when Kursk sank. Maybe I will build some SSN half the displacement of the Oscar and carry a smaller missile instead of something like the P-800. Not sure about ships. Kirovs are expensive as they are, and the next best option is a Slava.

Looks like you are right, building bombers to fire off the missiles is a better either. I guess more Tu-142s and Tu-160s are required now.

[PeZook]

In the mean time, are we just going to launch Sputnik or something more sophisticated? I mean, the technology is already there.

The current plan goes:

Launch tests of the enlarged R-7 (8K72K): Now-ish

First photo reconeissance/meteo satellite: two-three months from now

Unmanned/Chimp Mercury flights: January-March

First manned orbital flight: somewhere near April 2009?

All flights including many Soyuz orbital tests can be done with various versions of the R7, fortunately.

[Czechmate]

Argh. I was editing data into my post and things raced ahead. Stas, scroll up mid-page-16 to find it.

[K. A. Pital]

Kirovs are expensive as they are, and the next best option is a Slava

The Slava carries just a little less (-4 missiles) armament than a Kirov when considering anti-ship actions, and can be fitted with the P-1000.

If you are looking at overseas operations and wars with powerful overseas enemies, the Kirov is your choice. If you are willing to secure the Mediterranean and stop at that, the Slava is fine.

The Slava-class can only re-load missiles in port, but the same is true of Kirovs IIRC.

Your coup and expectation that the Southron army would escape unmolested were both unrealistic

I never said they "escaped unmolested", I said they retreated rapidly and in panic, even dropping vehicles and tanks behind and running out of gas.

The losses you posted are fine, let's say the fighting was very intense.

[Czechmate]

Oh, it was. It was some crazy counter-blitzkrieg stuff. TJAF and TXAF attack jets and fighter-bombers everywhere, my battered Challengers charging disorganized Type 59 regiments, all kinds of sudden madness.

And then they got bottled up in the valleys. Those poor italo-american commies.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Kirovs are expensive as they are, and the next best option is a Slava

The Slava carries just a little less (-4 missiles) armament than a Kirov when considering anti-ship actions, and can be fitted with the P-1000.

If you are looking at overseas operations and wars with powerful overseas enemies, the Kirov is your choice. If you are willing to secure the Mediterranean and stop at that, the Slava is fine.

The Slava-class can only re-load missiles in port, but the same is true of Kirovs IIRC.

I'm counting on both our fleets to secure the Mediterranean, to be honest If an Imperium comes knocking with 3 or so CVBGs, I will have a real fight on my hands. I think I might construct a few Slavas, solely as big missile ships. Kirovs, well, I can maybe afford 2 a year at most. I have 3 and 1 under construction.

But I plan to organize bomber wings with air refueling planes in tow, as part of an anti-CVBG strategy. I already have Tu-142s and air refueling planes. More Tu-160s are on the way too.

Which reminds me, we ought to include anti-CVBG drills in our next exercise.

[PeZook]

It's on, Japanistan!

[K. A. Pital]

And then they got bottled up in the valleys. Those poor italo-american commies.

Oh, Czech, you think that making fun of a power which could steamroll your little nation were you not a pitful colony of Beowulf, is clever?

I'm counting on both our fleets to secure the Mediterranean, to be honest

Stock your Slavas with the P-1000 (I will gladly license the designs - I presume it hasn't already been, since it's one of the more secret Soviet missiles). It can be retrofitted in the pre-existing P-500 system, unlike the P-700 which requires a different, uh... heavier type of ship.

Also, make bomber swarms and stock them up with Kitchens - or something more deadly, if you will

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Stock your Slavas with the P-1000 (I will gladly license the designs - I presume it hasn't already been, since it's one of the more secret Soviet missiles). It can be retrofitted in the pre-existing P-500 system, unlike the P-700 which requires a different, uh... heavier type of ship.

Thinking of that.

*scribbles down orders to swap from Ticonderonga and KDX-III production to Slava next game year*

I'll be forming dedicated CVBG kill teams.

Also, make bomber swarms and stock them up with Kitchens - or something more deadly, if you will

Yeah, the strategic bomber fleet is getting more planes between now and he next.

[Siege]

PeZook, decide on where to put the launchpad. Jerusalem or Camona (whatever that island is called. I don't even know where it is).

I'm voting Jerusalem as well, for what it's worth. I'd be willing to host a tracking station as well.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

PeZook, decide on where to put the launchpad. Jerusalem or Camona (whatever that island is called. I don't even know where it is).

I'm voting Jerusalem as well, for what it's worth. I'd be willing to host a tracking station as well.

Cool. We might need one more besides yours, to cover the northern hemisphere.

[PeZook]

Also, I guess we'll need to give a ring to Japanistan and sign an agreement on the peaceful exploration of space.

[Steve]

If your space program needs a tracking station/radar facility in America (Dammit, I don't call it Messamerica in my history file either), Cascadia is a non-alliance geopolitically-neutral state with a sophisticated internal infrastructure and technology industry that can host said tracking station.

[K. A. Pital]

Have fun Fingolfin...

Armory:
Heavy rocket cruisers

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Have fun Fingolfin...

Armory:
Heavy rocket cruisers

Thanks Stas. Though I want to tweak the design of the Slava a fair bit to suit my purposes.

[Raj Ahten]

A couple of things:
First I'm sorry to say, Indhopal will not be giving funds to FASTA. All that money is going to military satellites instead. So basically San Dorado is going to get an infusion of several billion and Indhopal's researchers for their program.

Also for the FTO joint naval and air command, these were pretty much liked by everyone so its time to set them up. I see it mainly as a staff thing that smoothes out deployment issues when the FTO militaries work together. So basically we all just have to say we are participating in it and maybe run some exercises and so forth.