SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread?

[phongn]

XX century systems won't give him enough resolution to get a grip on things; we actually calced the stuff with Shep. SO there's a sense to it, don't think it's STOOPID.

The reason our current stuff won't give the resolution is more to do with the size of the mirror in the satellite. Some highly expensive system with huge adaptive optics could overcome it.

EDIT: Also, what happens if the shit hits the fan and someone does launch a LEO observation satellite? Are you going to risk shooting it down and spark a war right there and then?

Looks like the Neutral Space Center is back on schedule after all; only NCS launches, only approved, so no spysats ever enter and junk LEO.

While some sort of international weather satellite agency doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, my proposed satellite constellations are private sector, not public. They are going to be rather unwilling to disclose proprietary information about their satellites. For that matter, some nations are going to be leery of relying on some third-party for critical weather information.

[RogueIce]

As for GPS... I don't know honestly. I try my best, but the threat of war never fades.

Yes, GPS is a bit of minefield. On the one hand, the benefits are there. On the other, I don't anyone wants the others getting the pinpoint brand just for free. On the other, people will still want it for themselves. Which means we'd either have to find a compromise or watch multiple competing GPS systems go up.

Okay, so this is the proposal: starting 2009, JSEZ is reformed into NSC Authority. This entity never changes actually and would require no game management; essentially a real-life common rule

But shall we notice "we launch LEO sat" from anyone, it's down.

The Shinra Republic endorses this measure by the Red Technocracy.

[Coyote]

At this point, we should turn Neutrality Point into a sort of United Nations/Babylon 5 place.

Canissia will contribute to the upkeep, and send a small staff with an envoy...

[K. A. Pital]

Some highly expensive system with huge adaptive optics could overcome it.

Well go for it; spend the money. The conventional methods are outdone, and that sufficed for us.

Oh, and it seems the proposal is falling apart again. Well... duh.

And it's good too that it's hulking huge: we notice you beam an ENERGIA up into higher orbits, we are fine to question what the payload is.

watch multiple competing GPS systems go up

GPS are all meosat, let just everyone go for it and there'd be no unnecessary complications.

[RogueIce]

EDIT: Also, what happens if the shit hits the fan and someone does launch a LEO observation satellite? Are you going to risk shooting it down and spark a war right there and then?

That is the risk we take anyway. We've narrowly avoided shooting wars a few times over various issues.

Hopefully people will be reasonable and not willing to plunge the world into war over some LEO idea.

While some sort of international weather satellite agency doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, my proposed satellite constellations are private sector, not public. They are going to be rather unwilling to disclose proprietary information about their satellites. For that matter, some nations are going to be leery of relying on some third-party for critical weather information.

Well that's why it is in some sense more a game rule than anything else. Proprietary information will be protected by the NSC Inspectors under NDAs; so long as it doesn't violate the rules, they won't see the need to spread the information. You'll still build it, they'll just make sure it doesn't violate any applicable spy sat regulations.

As far as trusting them for weather information that is problematic. And like the GPS question probably not one we can easily solve. Still, I suppose so long as it is not a spy satellite and passes NSC inspection, it could still be launched. It'll just be up there.

Oh, and it seems the proposal is falling apart again. Well... duh.

Not to worry, I'm still fighting the good fight!

[Coyote]

...While some sort of international weather satellite agency doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, my proposed satellite constellations are private sector, not public. They are going to be rather unwilling to disclose proprietary information about their satellites.

Corporate non-disclosure agreements, enforceable by international treaty, a proprietary service agreement and joint-venture capital to over come costs..?

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah. The NSC Comission is not going to tell people all about proprietary stuff.

As for transmissions that is an issue, but the NSC should have some leverage over that.

You could install dual-use systems which would be hard to discern; and take a transmission back to you. that shouldn't fly to.

[CmdrWilkens]

Wilkonia supports Ice in his role as defacto spokesman for the MESS. An international agency with adequate oversight and private sector safeguards combined with international recognition of the right of peaceful satellite overflight at the altitudes already agreed upon is acceptable to us.

Moreover Wilkonia has decided to sign the Law of the Sea without further delay.

[K. A. Pital]

CmdrWilkens, mighty fine (though in this thread you don't need to be all that official, that's the out of character thread where we may do what we want )

The NSC so far gets backing by two MESS delegates, and only phongn opposes it but for non-disclosure I hope he agrees.

If not, we will go it without him. Just like we do it without Saddamistan, and don't fly ovre Saddamistan.

[phongn]

Yeah. The NSC Comission is not going to tell people all about proprietary stuff.

From a strictly OOC perspective I'd believe that, but in-character, neither the ITR nor the companies based in the ITR are going to trust these international agencies any further than they could kick them.

[K. A. Pital]

in-character, neither the ITR nor the companies based in the ITR are going to trust these international agencies any further than they could kick them.

Oh well; here's the bad thing about being in-character: as a Gensec of a socialist semi-autocratic technocracy, I care for the NSC far more than about the IRT space sector; and frankly it's understandable as NSC is vital to my security, my space sector is totally public so no issues, and I hold no pity on IRT (you're a foreign nation after all).

So LEO sat launches are off limits to privateers, big deal. Your privateers are then better make bigger mirrors and license Angara/Proton/Energia designs from me, or some other heavy stuff (Ariane?). And that's it.

I still go forth with NSC.

And it be known NSC will take at least a year, maybe more, to make - lead powers will finance, because too many financiers will just end it up being a long construction.

Before that, JSEZ regulations in the renewed variant (anti-LEO sat 1000 km, human craft 450-800km window) are still upheld.

So launch a sat, and we'll shoot it down.

[CmdrWilkens]

/OOC

From a completely observational point I think we are all hammering on the point of being too IU to step back and realize the nature of the game does present some limitations: Yes we want LEOs and MEOs for all sort of civilain endeavours but there needs to be a way to make sure, in game terms, that there can be no SPY satellites. Now there are two ways of doing this:
1) We can setup an IU means of ensuring there are no spy sats OR
2) Zor can declare them null and void as a condition of the OP.

3) Obviously solution 3 is that we allow spy sats to exist, folks launch them and a hot war starts OR instead the person who "owns" the sat makes shit up about the country they are overflying which leads to massive Retconning later so this isn't reall a solution as much as a huge fucking headache that we are best off avoiding.

I really don't care which of the first two solutions we go with but from a puely game structural standpoint we need one of the two.

[K. A. Pital]

I really don't care which of the first two solutions we go with but from a puely game structural standpoint we need one of the two.

I propose IU solution because, as I said, IU disputes banning stuff or ruining industries has happened before.

I always treat a problem IU (Deathdealer's F-22s weren't immediately BOOEHED as rule violations, but instead as a secret arms deal).

[Beowulf]

No, you can't and you know full well. A national leader may have somehting to say about "spies" detecting anything, like Mangka had to say that Shadow OPS attacked not a weapon installation and it doesn't really have weapons no matter what they "found".

You can't find that which doesn't exist. You can find that which does (unless it's specifically stated to be highly secret). Any sort of information gathering must be coordinated with the player you're gathering from, making this all a bit moot.

I'll make a counter proposal: 330km for manned spacecraft. This is inline with where the two most recent space stations orbit(ed).

However, 330 km is suboptimal for space stations, whereas 450-800 is optimal. Why so low? Because of weak booster tech for most of years.

Once we get Proton, Angara or even Energia as the main boosters here, no LEO junk will be there.

Hey, I found a benefit there - NO LEO JUNK. Better and safer human space exploration.

There is no boosters but those we make ourselves. We can't build on the tech from Earth for this.

Operationally useful weather sats use a polar sun-synchronous orbit at 500mi. This necessarily requires that they pass through everyone's airspace at some point.

Why? Can't the orbit be plotted so taht it doesn't? I mean, that's weird. We're the size of Africa, even less.

Short answer is, no you can't. Sun-synchronous orbits are inflexible in where the satellite ends up.

[RogueIce]

/OOC

From a completely observational point I think we are all hammering on the point of being too IU to step back and realize the nature of the game does present some limitations: Yes we want LEOs and MEOs for all sort of civilain endeavours but there needs to be a way to make sure, in game terms, that there can be no SPY satellites. Now there are two ways of doing this:
1) We can setup an IU means of ensuring there are no spy sats OR
2) Zor can declare them null and void as a condition of the OP.

3) Obviously solution 3 is that we allow spy sats to exist, folks launch them and a hot war starts OR instead the person who "owns" the sat makes shit up about the country they are overflying which leads to massive Retconning later so this isn't reall a solution as much as a huge fucking headache that we are best off avoiding.

I really don't care which of the first two solutions we go with but from a puely game structural standpoint we need one of the two.

The NSC proposal, as it stands, is basically taking number 1 and implementing that.

From a strictly OOC perspective I'd believe that, but in-character, neither the ITR nor the companies based in the ITR are going to trust these international agencies any further than they could kick them.

Don't they have to trust your patent office anyway? Or is it setup in your country differently? Maybe you could sell it to them that way?

At any rate, as Stas said the NSC goes on. If the ITR won't sign on (or the companies of the ITR don't trust the NSC regardless) then that's their problem I guess. You take your chances then.

I for one have nothing to hide (and if I did, there are ways to do it) so I won't be worrying about shooting down LEO satellites. Space-based weapons platforms may be a different matter, but thus far they don't exist and we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah. I wonder why everyone got so badly concerned about LEO Sats. All other stuff can be launched privately.

LEO is mostly weathersats and stuff; just go on with it NSC launch.

[phongn]

Oh well; here's the bad thing about being in-character: as a Gensec of a socialist semi-autocratic technocracy, I care for the NSC far more than about the IRT space sector; and frankly it's understandable as NSC is vital to my security, my space sector is totally public so no issues, and I hold no pity on IRT (you're a foreign nation after all).

Well, clearly. The IRT is a corporate technocracy with no public space sector. We're very different nations, and the IRT thinks the JSEZ group is trying to kick the chair out from under them.

So LEO sat launches are off limits to privateers, big deal. Your privateers are then better make bigger mirrors and license Angara/Proton/Energia designs from me, or some other heavy stuff (Ariane?). And that's it.

Well, no, the main issue with my private-sector groups is that not only would you need a much larger antenna array for each satellite (drastically increasing the costs, even if fewer satellites are needed at higher altitude) but the ground devices would too. SCC is hoping for a device the size of an old-style cell phone + 10" linear antenna, not a 12" dish!

Of course, SCC hopes to sell to anyone and everyone, including governments with secure communications (via specialized ground stations).

So launch a sat, and we'll shoot it down.

And clutter up space with debris?

[MKSheppard]

The reason our current stuff won't give the resolution is more to do with the size of the mirror in the satellite. Some highly expensive system with huge adaptive optics could overcome it.

That's EXACTLY THE POINT.

As it is, with about late CORONA level resolution, you need a focal length of about 20 feet to get a 6" resolution at ground level from 183 miles. At 1,000 miles; you need a focal length of 110 feet.

Now, these are just back of enevelope calcs; but it shows that you CAN get around the JSEZ 1,000 mile limit by flying spy sats higher, but there will be a price to pay in virtual attrition.

[K. A. Pital]

And clutter up space with debris?

LEO stuff will burn out. And if you're launching MEO sats, we won't shoot that down.

But yeah, we will. Not because OOC I don't understand you, I do.

However, in universe you'd be a threat enough to take the sat down - especially with that radar thing and open arms procurement bids to OMSK members, who may become dependent on private sales.

There is no boosters but those we make ourselves. We can't build on the tech from Earth for this.

What the HELL? What are you building, fluffy bunnies? You have the blueprints of space tech and the spacetech industry required; we just agreed any particular project is not built off-hands. So, you can build a Shuttle, but you can't have it.

And yes, you need to build boosters - so?

[RogueIce]

Stas Bush
In the interests of global cooperation, in addition to the embassy I am already willing to establish with you (and of course I invite you to build an embassy here), I would like to propose we develop a joint civilian-sector GPS system (accurate to approximately 10 meters, or as otherwise agreed upon) in anticipation of the eventual development and deployment of the NSC. The goal would be to, hopefully, have such a system ready to go approximately co-incident with the activation of the NSC. We could then provide it to the NSC as perhaps their first series of launches to commorate the historic event, offering a cheap GPS system to the world.

What do you say to this proposal?

[K. A. Pital]

I give you access to my GLADOS data; so far 1 and 2 crude GPS sats have been lifted into MEO by Molniya-type launchers.

That's my goodwill. Next launches...

I'm pretty tight pressed on my space budget right now. Goals of milestone proportions. Can't disclose much else, though.

Yes, we need more sats; but at least 2 is better than none.

[phongn]

Now, these are just back of enevelope calcs; but it shows that you CAN get around the JSEZ 1,000 mile limit by flying spy sats higher, but there will be a price to pay in virtual attrition.

Stas argues that we shouldn't have spy satellites because of the possibility of powergaming and thus requires an absurd out-of-universe ruling grafted on in-universe, you argue that it's merely to force virtual-attrition on everyone else who wants to toss up on observation satellite - which is it?

LEO stuff will burn out. And if you're launching MEO sats, we won't shoot that down.

Er, the proposed orbits aren't that low. You might note that debris from the Chinese ASAT test is still cluttering up space, and that from an altitude similar to that of my proposed LEOSAT constellation.

However, in universe you'd be a threat enough to take the sat down - especially with that radar thing and open arms procurement bids to OMSK members, who may become dependent on private sales.

Er, what? How is ITR a threat? The TSDF has virtually nothing in the way of offensive warfighting capabilities. It pretty much is entirely aligned into defending the SLOCs and the homeland.

As for arms sales, that's just good-ole' capitalist competition

[K. A. Pital]

Stas argues that we shouldn't have spy satellites because of the possibility of powergaming and thus requires an absurd out-of-universe ruling grafted on in-universe, you argue that it's merely to force virtual-attrition on everyone else who wants to toss up on observation satellite - which is it?

Both. It's game stupid (1) those threaten us (2). Both are true.

How is ITR a threat?

Sorry, messed up you with Beowulf, it's like deep night here pardon

[CmdrWilkens]

Well Wilkonia has space and all other sectors pretty much maxed out for FY08 and FY09 but there will probably be room in the FY10 budget to shift money into the joint GPS system. At that point the additional rail lines I've been building will be complete (as an aside all of the rail lines mentioned in my OOB post are referencing state run 4-track lines) and I will have room in the capital budget to move into those expenditures. Also if folks start buying up my old Ticos then I may have some extra cash to put into an NSC-run GPS program.

[K. A. Pital]

okay, so JointGPS? I contribute initial 2 sats for the cause of peace, but like I said, my space budget is tight now and will be so for some time in the future.