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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It occurs to me that since our Gorgons and Naga were explicitly trying to target the military-industrial complex that if any come up on trial after the war a decent lawyer will probably get them off. Belial ironically shielded himself from warcrimes charges by explicitly trying to attack manufacturing complexes of the military-industrial complex.

On the other hand, normal demon conduct is probably enough to easily qualify for an indictment for "crimes against humanity", unless you strike a deal in exchange for co-operation.

JN1 wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:Poor Sheffield and Poor Belial when the Brits find out that he came up with this cunning plan.

We'll be trying to work out if we can insert an SAS/SBS kill team into Hell to get him.
Nice to see another chapter.

Killing Belial without damaging the infrastructure (or in this case, specialized personnel) used to conduct these strikes would not solve the problem. They have to either kill off or capture large numbers of these specialized personnel, or they must inflict such heavy retaliatory damage that the denizens of Hell think twice about trying something like this again.

The shadow government wasn't the enemy after all, they'd probably been secretly preparing humanity to fight the demons for decades, if not centuries.

So Belial is getting more information to support his theory that we have been stockpiling for ages because only the crazies aren't wearing tinfoil

Darth Wong wrote:

JN1 wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote:Poor Sheffield and Poor Belial when the Brits find out that he came up with this cunning plan.

We'll be trying to work out if we can insert an SAS/SBS kill team into Hell to get him.
Nice to see another chapter.

Killing Belial without damaging the infrastructure (or in this case, specialized personnel) used to conduct these strikes would not solve the problem. They have to either kill off or capture large numbers of these specialized personnel, or they must inflict such heavy retaliatory damage that the denizens of Hell think twice about trying something like this again.

One might consider the F-111s to be Commonwealth aircraft so with SAS/SBS, there is the making of a broad spectrum response that can do massive damage to the infrastructure. However, Belial has to be found first. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that SAS/SBS are already scouting far and wide in hell, assuming that sufficient portals can be opened. It is right up their alley.

Chewie was right earlier on - after some photo recon Abigor should be requested to start naming things and providing some context for them. After Sheffield, I would expect him to be asked such questions with some greater urgency than normal. Maybe the character who appears to be a targeter ( remind anyone of The Seer? ) would be the best de-briefer. The demons were shocked at how intensely we fought conventional war. Abigor may find a targeter's views horrifyingly dispassionate.

Jonathan

So is it Lakhee-chan or naasi-chan now?

Darth Wong wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It occurs to me that since our Gorgons and Naga were explicitly trying to target the military-industrial complex that if any come up on trial after the war a decent lawyer will probably get them off. Belial ironically shielded himself from warcrimes charges by explicitly trying to attack manufacturing complexes of the military-industrial complex.

On the other hand, normal demon conduct is probably enough to easily qualify for an indictment for "crimes against humanity", unless you strike a deal in exchange for co-operation.

This made me think of something.

The demons and angels have been told all along that they're draining the power from the humans to move up to the next level of existence. If we take at face value that they are draining power from the humans (since the demons have referred to it as a kind of commodity) there may be a lot to that.

Obviously it's becoming clear that the reasoning is not exactly true, since the demons have no idea where they go when they die. There may not even be a next level, and there's no reason to assume they can't naturally jump the energy gradient, since we do it with relative ease, and they're obviously making way more "life energy" as indicated by their accelerated healing rate (I'm assuming the two are connected. Smack me if I'm wrong, or just take away my cookie if you feel that is warranted. ).

We see humans in the resistance increasingly able to fight the demons. The one Ori hacked up was weakened by the rifle, but demons have shown the ability to remain batshit after multiple gunshot wounds (granted of smaller calibre) before.

I guess what I'm going for is that maybe the relative power of the demons isn't really that great against an undistracted (whether by torture or constant praise) dead human. They're keeping us distracted so we can't make use of the available power, and, as an added benefit, they can then siphon it off of us.

That would explain why the different methods used by demons and angels seem to both have some effectiveness. It would also explain why the demon method has a significantly lower yield (since a lot of the available power has to go into healing with torture).

Just my musing. Hopefully I'm dead wrong, though, because I hate figuring stuff out early.

EDIT: Also, do humans know the demons are allergic to iron? If we do, why not mandate an iron penetrator inside of small arms rounds from now on to increase their anti-demon effectiveness? Also, does the iron allergy affect dead humans?

Darth Wong wrote:Killing Belial without damaging the infrastructure (or in this case, specialized personnel) used to conduct these strikes would not solve the problem. They have to either kill off or capture large numbers of these specialized personnel, or they must inflict such heavy retaliatory damage that the denizens of Hell think twice about trying something like this again.

Sounds like a job for the W54 Special Atomic Demolition Munition.

Both the recon and strike challenges for putting Belial out of business are formidable and should not be taken lightly. There are tens of millions of square km for the recon aircraft cover - noting that visibility in hell ranges from poor to awful and ground-imaging radar has very definite limitations. Abigor's idea of mapmaking is typically bronze age; his maps capture 'the general local orientation of features' and that's about it. He has no experience with correlating aerial recon imagery with features seen from the ground (though if any of his harpies survived they might do a bit better).

Currently the fleet of aircraft capable of operating in hell's atmosphere is small and needed urgently for close air support. The non-Euclidean geometry is still causing problems and there's simply no way all of the relevant nav, imaging and guidance software can be patched in a matter of weeks - even concentrating on the most critical stuff, there are still likely to be bugs. There will be a lot of human error checking, correcting and general fudging going on. Additionally there's no GPS, no stars to track, no magnetic compass, a very limited radio beacon network as yet and inertial guidance accuracy is compromised by the fact that we don't have a density map of hell (and won't anytime soon). Laser designators are also a chancy proposition in the horrible atmosphere.

As for ths strike, 10,000 miles is a long way at the best of times; in hell engine efficiency and hence performance is reduced by the air filters, and if you do go down search and rescue efforts may not be possible. Finally there are the usual challenges of efficiently destroying a fortified target about which virtually nothing is currently known, presumably with conventional weapons, preferably without killing too many enslaved humans.

Of course I'm merely an interested layman, but I know enough to appreciate that the experts (as ever) make it look easy.

Edward Yee wrote:So is it Lakhee-chan or naasi-chan now?

I actually wrote her bits using her full name only once or twice a chapter (and when spoken to), otherwise using the abbreviated form 'Lakeenah'. Stuart changed them all to the long form presumably to emphasise the fact that the demons never abbreviate their own names - quite where this cultural quirk comes from I'm not sure, but it's interesting. There's a definite trend towards more important demons having shorter names.

Sidewinder wrote:Sounds like a job for the W54 Special Atomic Demolition Munition.

Awww, as usual the SADM ends up with all the groupies while the MADM gets no love.

Darth Wong wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It occurs to me that since our Gorgons and Naga were explicitly trying to target the military-industrial complex that if any come up on trial after the war a decent lawyer will probably get them off. Belial ironically shielded himself from warcrimes charges by explicitly trying to attack manufacturing complexes of the military-industrial complex.

On the other hand, normal demon conduct is probably enough to easily qualify for an indictment for "crimes against humanity", unless you strike a deal in exchange for co-operation.

The Gorgons and Naga seem to be like oppressed subspecies which are, due to their position as such, never given access to humans to torture. Despite the fact they want to.

That's an interest challenge--how do you punish people who wanted to systematically torture others but were prevented due to their own oppression from doing so? Do you punish them at all?

Starglider wrote:I actually wrote her bits using her full name only once or twice a chapter (and when spoken to), otherwise using the abbreviated form 'Lakeenah'. Stuart changed them all to the long form presumably to emphasise the fact that the demons never abbreviate their own names - quite where this cultural quirk comes from I'm not sure, but it's interesting. There's a definite trend towards more important demons having shorter names.

Didn't stop "Abby-kun," teehee.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:That's an interest challenge--how do you punish people who wanted to systematically torture others but were prevented due to their own oppression from doing so? Do you punish them at all?

"If the desire to kill and the opportunity to kill came always together, who would escape hanging?"
-Samuel Clemens, Following the Equator

Starglider wrote:I actually wrote her bits using her full name only once or twice a chapter (and when spoken to), otherwise using the abbreviated form 'Lakeenah'. Stuart changed them all to the long form presumably to emphasise the fact that the demons never abbreviate their own names - quite where this cultural quirk comes from I'm not sure, but it's interesting. There's a definite trend towards more important demons having shorter names.

Gorgons appear to be relatively new, and older demons tend to live longer and be more important. Maybe the names are getting longer, with the shorter names assigned to the oldest demons?

Both the recon and strike challenges for putting Belial out of business are formidable and should not be taken lightly. There are tens of millions of square km for the recon aircraft cover - noting that visibility in hell ranges from poor to awful and ground-imaging radar has very definite limitations. Abigor's idea of mapmaking is typically bronze age; his maps capture 'the general local orientation of features' and that's about it. He has no experience with correlating aerial recon imagery with features seen from the ground (though if any of his harpies survived they might do a bit better).

Currently the fleet of aircraft capable of operating in hell's atmosphere is small and needed urgently for close air support. The non-Euclidean geometry is still causing problems and there's simply no way all of the relevant nav, imaging and guidance software can be patched in a matter of weeks - even concentrating on the most critical stuff, there are still likely to be bugs. There will be a lot of human error checking, correcting and general fudging going on. Additionally there's no GPS, no stars to track, no magnetic compass, a very limited radio beacon network as yet and inertial guidance accuracy is compromised by the fact that we don't have a density map of hell (and won't anytime soon). Laser designators are also a chancy proposition in the horrible atmosphere.

As for ths strike, 10,000 miles is a long way at the best of times; in hell engine efficiency and hence performance is reduced by the air filters, and if you do go down search and rescue efforts may not be possible. Finally there are the usual challenges of efficiently destroying a fortified target about which virtually nothing is currently known, presumably with conventional weapons, preferably without killing too many enslaved humans.

Of course I'm merely an interested layman, but I know enough to appreciate that the experts (as ever) make it look easy.

Could humanity not convince Satan to avoid ordering such strikes in the future? If we were to plaster a large section of Dis with nukes, and then use radio-telepathy to contact Satan and inform him that if he doesn't drop volcanoes on our cities, we won't drop nukes all over Dis, he might decide that it's not worth the pain it'll cause Hell. Especially if he can be convinced that we have thousands more weapons where those came from, and if we indicate we know where his palace is. He's operating on the assumption that he's the only one with WMDs, like the US before the USSR built it's first nuke. Knowing the other side has a similar capability would have to make him at least think twice.

Psychic_Sandwich wrote:Could humanity not convince Satan to avoid ordering such strikes in the future? If we were to plaster a large section of Dis with nukes, and then use radio-telepathy to contact Satan and inform him that if he doesn't drop volcanoes on our cities, we won't drop nukes all over Dis, he might decide that it's not worth the pain it'll cause Hell. Especially if he can be convinced that we have thousands more weapons where those came from, and if we indicate we know where his palace is. He's operating on the assumption that he's the only one with WMDs, like the US before the USSR built it's first nuke. Knowing the other side has a similar capability would have to make him at least think twice.

The problem is that there are a vast number of deceased humans in the target areas that would be erased if we start trhowing nukes around. In any such attack, human casualties would enormously exceed demonish deaths. In effect, demons have a massive human shield around them. That precludes the use of nukes.

Fair enough.

You know, Stuart, despite the cleaned up posts, maybe you should just start a new thread for Part 50 or 51 and beyond--this thread is kinda crazy in its size, and the popularity of the story merits it having multiple threads, so I don't think anyone will mind at all.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:That's an interest challenge--how do you punish people who wanted to systematically torture others but were prevented due to their own oppression from doing so? Do you punish them at all?

Is it even practical to punish most or all of the demons?

Hmm. I'm too busy to be writing chapters right now, so I'll just toss this idea up if someone wants to run with it. We've got portals under Human control now, and we're looking for a portal in Hell. I'm thinking it's time to start looking for unusual emissions from the portals we do control, and then if/when we find something trackable, step up the recon flights.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You know, Stuart, despite the cleaned up posts, maybe you should just start a new thread for Part 50 or 51 and beyond--this thread is kinda crazy in its size, and the popularity of the story merits it having multiple threads, so I don't think anyone will mind at all.

Since it has become technically impossible to moderate this thread in case of need, this is an excellent idea.

Stuart wrote:The problem is that there are a vast number of deceased humans in the target areas that would be erased if we start trhowing nukes around. In any such attack, human casualties would enormously exceed demonish deaths. In effect, demons have a massive human shield around them. That precludes the use of nukes.

I think at least part of the point of his suggestion is that if we show a certain disregard for fellow humans when doing so, Satan will believe we're absolutely serious even while we're puking our guts out for having taken out something on the order of a billion human souls.

However, I agree with you on this one, the people to be hit are more likely than not innocent and don't deserve to be bombed conventionally, much less with nuclear weapons.

White Haven wrote:I'm thinking it's time to start looking for unusual emissions from the portals we do control, and then if/when we find something trackable, step up the recon flights.

There don't appear to be any comms or radar interference effects due to the mere presence of a portal, as opposed to the strong EM radiation used to open one. There may still be unusual emissions of course (possibly some kind of particle radiation), just not as strong.

Fyrwulf wrote:I think at least part of the point of his suggestion is that if we show a certain disregard for fellow humans when doing so, Satan will believe we're absolutely serious even while we're puking our guts out for having taken out something on the order of a billion human souls.

It would only make sense to sacrifice a billion human lives if we were quite sure that doing so was the only way to prevent an even greater loss of life. We aren't anywhere near that point yet, and unless the celestial powers start showing capabilities two or three orders of magnitude more destructive than what Belial just did we never will be. Also there's the fact that humans killed in hell may be gone for good, while humans lost on earth are simply tortured and will hopefully be liberated soon, which means if we are going to take casualties we'd actually prefer to take them on earth.

Starglider wrote:I actually wrote her bits using her full name only once or twice a chapter (and when spoken to), otherwise using the abbreviated form 'Lakeenah'. Stuart changed them all to the long form presumably to emphasise the fact that the demons never abbreviate their own names - quite where this cultural quirk comes from I'm not sure, but it's interesting. There's a definite trend towards more important demons having shorter names.

It's likely greater demons are older demons and without the use of numbers or lineage names and in the face of their extremely long lives, the names of younger demons become increasingly long and complex to prevent cases of mistaken identity and 'stealing' the names of ancient heroes who are still alive.

Stuart wrote:

Psychic_Sandwich wrote:Could humanity not convince Satan to avoid ordering such strikes in the future? If we were to plaster a large section of Dis with nukes, and then use radio-telepathy to contact Satan and inform him that if he doesn't drop volcanoes on our cities, we won't drop nukes all over Dis, he might decide that it's not worth the pain it'll cause Hell. Especially if he can be convinced that we have thousands more weapons where those came from, and if we indicate we know where his palace is. He's operating on the assumption that he's the only one with WMDs, like the US before the USSR built it's first nuke. Knowing the other side has a similar capability would have to make him at least think twice.

The problem is that there are a vast number of deceased humans in the target areas that would be erased if we start trhowing nukes around. In any such attack, human casualties would enormously exceed demonish deaths. In effect, demons have a massive human shield around them. That precludes the use of nukes.

Even in Dis? I thought Dis was the demons' version of an affluent white suburb in America: devoid of "inferiors".

Darth Wong wrote:Even in Dis? I thought Dis was the demons' version of an affluent white suburb in America: devoid of "inferiors".

IIRC, Dis was one the things Dante got right (or something to that effect); there are millions of red-hot tombs all over the place with humans inside them. For the life of me I can't remember where in this thread that was said though.

Darth Wong wrote: [Even in Dis? I thought Dis was the demons' version of an affluent white suburb in America: devoid of "inferiors".

The problem is that Dis surrounds Hell; its a thin ring-city built around the Caldera. Essentially its a line at any point while the blast pattern of a nuclear device is obdurately circular. So, hits in Dis will spend most of their energy on the occupants of the Hell pit.

On this thread, what I suggest is I'll post one more chapter here so there are a nice neat 50 Chapters, then we lock this thread and start a new one for Chapters 51-100