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Skimmer wrote:Many old ships could easily be retrofitted to carry it as well

Beowulf wrote:Klub has a much shorter range than the listed launch distance is the problem.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Czechmate wrote:I agree. the few that make it through should cause a good deal of damage. I propose the following as casualties;

-total loss of one Perry-class frigate of the TJN
-heavy damage to one Burke-class destroyer of the TJN
-moderate damage to one nuclear Burke-class destroyer of the TXN

Is this acceptable?

Yes.

EDIT: with regards to the TASM strike on the PRSF group, I believe at least one Slava and one Neustrashimy should have taken heavy damage from sheer weight of missiles fired at them.

The Neustrashimy's would have been in the forward arc based on Stas deployment--he explicitly described that they were standing out ahead of the main squadron. So that's two crippled and burned out frigates (think Belknap here) and some light fragmentation damage to either a 956 or a 1164, Stas' choice depending on the layout of the inner screen.

Stas Bush wrote:I'm not discussing the results, but trying to make them realistic.

Anyway, my next naval war will have thoroughly defined missile characteristics. Expect my Armory Bar to be posted into my OOB, so that people would know what they're dealing with.

Missiles without USA/NATO designation:

Many missiles that never became operational did not receive USA/NATO designations.
R-15/D-3 An IRBM-range SLBM intended for Project 652 submarines.
D-7 An IRBM-range SLBM to replace SS-N-5. Cancelled.
D-8 An unsuccessful competitor to SS-N-8.
RSM-54M An SLBM under development for Delta IV submarines.
P-10 Buran An SS-N-3C competitor designed by Beriev.
P-20 Burya An ultra-long range cruise missile designed by Ilyushin in 1960.
P-25 An SS-N-2 competitor designed by Chelomey. Solid fuel, limited production in 1961-1962.
P-35 Bazalt An early supersonic land-attack cruise missile. Cancelled.
P-40 An anti-ship version of P-35 to arm converted Sverdlov-class cruisers.
P-170 A hypersonic target drone with a naval missile 'P'-designation.
P-1000 Vulkan A hypersonic heavy anti-ship missile to replace SS-N-12 and SS-N-19.

P-500 Bazalt (SS-N-12 Sandbox) and P-1000 Vulkan

Presently, the P-500 Bazalt (SS-N-12 Sandbox) remains only on surface ships, but it is still one of the most capable Russian naval weapons. For a long time it was underestimated in the West. Since the missile was similar in appearance to the P-6/P-35 series, it was not even recognized for a long time, especially as the main armament of Echo II submarines.

Development of the intended P-6/P-35 replacement was initiated on the very same day as the P-120 Malakhit program (February 28, 1963). It was to be a surface-launched missile for both submarines and surface ships. To avoid any counterattack from a carrier group, the missile's range was to be 500 km, outside the usual operational radius of carrier-protection forces. At the same time, the guidance system and missile survivability were to be greatly improved and in line with evolving tactics. For the first time, it was assumed that any attack on a carrier group would be of a massive character. The tactics of such an attack is described later, but it is worth describing some P-500 Bazalt features beforehand.

The P-500 missile is similar in appearance to the P-6/35 and was powered by a liquid-fuel sustainer and solid-rocket booster. It has a speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.5-1.6 at low altitude. The flight profile of the missile varies from 30 to 7,000 m (low-low or low-high). Guidance is based on a digital INS on a gyro- stabilized platform and an active-radar seeker, which periodically switches to passive mode. For the first time, the missile was equipped with a digital computer (Tsifrova Vichislenna Mashina, "digital computing device"). The guidance system was also equipped with a datalink to communicate between missiles in a salvo, with a salvo consisting of eight missiles launched at short intervals. Usually, one of the missiles flies high (5,000-7,000 m) to pick up the target, while the rest remain at medium to low altitude with their radar seekers switched to passive mode. The leading missile then transmits targeting data to the others and allocates individual targets, with half of the salvo directed at the aircraft carrier and half at other ships in the area, one apiece. The onboard radar seekers are turned on at the last moment, just before reaching the target. If the lead missile is shot down, another one (in a programmed sequence) takes over and climbs to a higher altitude to continue directing the salvo. All the missiles have active radar jamming to disrupt any defensive action from fighters and shipboard air-defense systems. In addition, vital parts of the P-500 missile are armored to increase survivability.

Early trials of the first version of the P-500 system were conducted from 1969 to 1970, and from 1971-75, tests of the final version, with a 550-km range, were completed. The missile has a 1,000-kg HE warhead or a 350-kT-yield nuclear warhead. In 1975 the P-500 system was introduced to service on 10 out of the 29 Echo II-class submarines then in service. Nine of them received the Kasatka-B system for receiving data from the Uspekh and Legenda targeting systems (radar picture only), while one received the Uspekh interface only, without access to the Legenda space targeting system. Communications with targeting systems could be conducted from periscope depth with the antenna above the surface. Usually, Soviet submarines carried six conventional and two nuclear P-500 missiles on combat patrols. All of the submarines armed with P-500 missiles were withdrawn from service in the mid-1990s.

The P-500 Bazalt system, however, was not only used on submarines. In 1977 the system was accepted into service onboard Kiev-class aircraft carriers, four of which were built. The first three had a battery of eight launchers in the forward deck. The last ship of the class, commissioned the Baku in 1987, was built to a modified design and had no less than 12 launchers. All of these ships were withdrawn from service in the 1990s, but the last ship, renamed Admiral Gorshkov , is to be sold to India - after stripping off the P-500 missiles.

The only ships still armed with the P-500 Bazalt system are Slava-class cruisers. The first ship of the class, commissioned in 1983, underwent a major overhaul in the 1990s and was renamed the Moskva . It serves with the Russian Navy's Black Sea Fleet. The Northern Fleet operates the Marshal Ustinov , commissioned in 1986, while the Pacific Fleet operates the Varyag , commissioned in 1989. According to unconfirmed sources, however, the last was re-armed with the P-1000 system (see below). The first two ships (and possibly all three) have a tremendous battery of 16 P-500 Bazalt missiles, which can be directed at targets with the assistance of embarked Ka-27 Helix helicopters. A fourth cruiser, the Ukrainian Ukraina , was armed with the P-500 system. The ship was completed in late 2001, but after lengthy deliberations, it never entered service with the Ukrainian Navy. Declared spare, it now is to be sold abroad.

The P-1000 Vulkan was one of the most mysterious missiles in Soviet service. It was also the last Russian missile that required a submarine to surface for launch. Its existence was never discovered by NATO, despite the fact it was operational on five submarines. It was generally similar to P-500 but had titanium armor, and many of its steel parts were replaced by titanium ones. This enabled a significant decrease in launch weight. At the same time, a more powerful booster and a more powerful and more fuel-efficient sustainer turbojet engine was employed. This increased the range to about 700 km. Its development was initiated in May 1979, and it underwent tests in the mid-1980s. The P-1000 was introduced into service in about 1987. In the late 1980s, five Echo II-class submarines were modernized to accommodate the new P-1000 Vulkan system, but all five were withdrawn from service in the mid-1990s. Thus, it was in front-line service for only about seven or eight years (unless it has, in fact, been installed on the Varyag ).

Stas Bush wrote: Which brings us to question 2, Marina. Czech wrote an OOB for PRSF which is genuinely huge. Now, I want to politically secure the Livorno Naval base, but annexing the PRSF by force will lead (if successful) to the great expansion of my Navy and/or Army.

Can we capture NPC nations and claim their war assets as our own? What if we capture a real player nation in a war?

I need some clarification so that my political decisions don't intrude on regular game rules.

Stas Bush wrote:As for engaging Beowulf, spare that. I don't want to cheat in the game, i.e. inflict casualties on an actual player with an NPC nation that I don't care about even if it gets nuked.

Which brings us to question 2, Marina. Czech wrote an OOB for PRSF which is genuinely huge. Now, I want to politically secure the Livorno Naval base, but annexing the PRSF by force will lead (if successful) to the great expansion of my Navy and/or Army.

Can we capture NPC nations and claim their war assets as our own? What if we capture a real player nation in a war?

Stas Bush wrote:Are Kitchen missiles easily destroyed by F-14Es? They are Mach 4 capable. I thought it would be harder.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stas, how does the P-1000 Vulkan compare against the P-700 missile? Looks one heavy bastard, made of titanium, no less.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Smaller lighter missiles like Harpoon, Klub and to a lesser extent Yakhont don’t have as awe inspiring range, but you can carry far more of them and in general shear numbers are more important then anything else when launching an anti ship missile attack. Yakhont can hit mach 3.0 in level flight too. Its all the better if you combined missile types, like say diving semi ballistic anti radar missiles like Kh-15, low altitude wave skimming missiles like Klub, and a mid level very high missile like Yakhont and P-1000. This combination of threats at vastly different altitudes will make it much harder for radars to track them all, and will slow down engagement rates. However it also demands a great deal of coordination between launch platforms, or else the enemy will simply face each threat in turn, rather then simultaneously.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Well you could easily subdivide missiles into more then three categories but that’s pretty must the jist of it, attack from multiple directions and multiple altitudes with at least several dozen missiles in each group. It would also really help to send your own fighters up to engage to defenders aircraft, and attempt to shoot down any active airborne early warning planes. Even if you don’t shoot anything down, the presence of your own fighters will keep a number of the enemies busy.

Carrier groups are far from invincible, but you just can’t expect to easily volley off a few dozen missiles and overwhelm maybe five billion dollars worth of SAM systems on the escorts and five billion dollars worth of fighter aircraft flying off that deck. This game just happens to have over 30 large carriers floating around, so I suggest investing in large ammo stockpiles if you want to fight them.

PeZook wrote:They essentially did what the Soviets did during the space race to win propaganda points: built a jury-rigged barely functional space rocket .

PeZook wrote:Heh...Phong, don't let yourself be dragged into useless propaganda stunts, man.